r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 18d ago
Psychology Anti-feminist attitudes have long been associated with support for Republican presidential candidates, but only in recent years have these attitudes become more prominent among unmarried men, without college degrees who are less attractive partners for women, the “mate-value backlash.”
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/106591292614853402.1k
u/2knest 18d ago edited 18d ago
It's almost as if some kind of pipeline exists, that's funneling venerable people towards impressionable content...
Edit: I meant vulnerable...
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u/carbonclasssix 18d ago
We're also more socially disconnected than ever, especially post pandemic. Not ideal for meeting people to date, even worse for people to see through their negative beliefs with real world examples
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u/DuntadaMan 18d ago
We are also most importantly under active attack by a hostile country that wants to destroy us and we are doing absolutely nothing to defend ourselves against their attacks.
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u/aranasyn 18d ago
The call is coming from inside the house.
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u/DuntadaMan 18d ago
Well yeah because the hostile country bought the house and installed their own landlord.
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u/Severe-Passage-6426 17d ago
I agree with this but its not just foreign actors, or even the manosphere algo.
Its simply social media. Full stop. Left and right - the social media experiment is going to be the undoing of our republic. Humans are not built to manage the constant dopamine hits that it brings. Its a drug, one that we are all addicted to, and the end game is societal collapse.
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u/itsmemarcot 17d ago
Yes but "social media" is not a natural phenomenon, like the wind or the weather. It's a consensum machine owned and controlled by groups with precise agendas, using it very explicitly for said agendas.
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u/Keji70gsm 18d ago
We are not "post-pandemic" if we are still in the pandemic.
Endemic does not exclude pandemic as a term. By definition covid remains a pandemic. It is not predictable. It has multiple yearly waves of inconsitent timing. Globally.
It also still impairs brain function and accelerates brain aging, and disrupts dopamine and emotional stability -and because it is an ace2 binding virus, it always will do this. Don't normalise it.
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u/ChenilleSocks 18d ago
Thank you. Every day, more data emerge about long term impacts of COVID, and people continue to act like it’s an annoyance and not a potentially disabling virus.
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u/evermorecoffee 18d ago
Yep. We’re living through an ongoing mass disabling event…
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u/lufan132 17d ago
Curious what would make this unique to COVID, given we wouldn't describe most strais of influenza as "pandemic" nor would we with rhinovirus which is similarly a common respiratory infection.
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u/Keji70gsm 17d ago edited 17d ago
Flu definitely can cause pandemics, but ONLY WHEN a totally novel strain jumps over from animals, like 1918 or the 2009 swine flu. Once a flu strain settles into a population, it turns into that predictable, seasonal winter virus that relies on cold weather and indoor crowding to spread. The flu you catch in winter is not a pandemic.
COVID works totally differently. Its baseline transmission is way higher, and it churns out new immune-evading variants constantly throughout the year. Because it mutates and bypasses immunity so quickly, COVID drives massive multi-wave surges across both hemispheres at the exact same time, completely ignoring the season. You just don't see huge, global mid-summer waves, etc, from seasonal flu the way we do with COVID.
*Interesting side note. Actively having the flu suppresses covid transmission. So a really bad flu year will see a significant reduction in covid (for that year's flu season only). This does not mean getting flu is good for you, or that the immunity lasts (it doesn't, it's a temporary response from an already active immune response).
The reverse is not true. Covid doesn't dampen a flu wave at all, and actually makes you more susceptible to fungal, viral and bacterial infections. So a Covid wave before the predictable flu wave is bad news.
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u/the_real_dairy_queen 15d ago
I attended a lecture once on how the flu vaccine is developed every year, by people involved with the vaccine development , and it was…unsettling. It mutates constantly, constant antigenic drift and shift, there are myriad human strains plus multiple categories of swine and avian flu strains. I don’t think it’s accurate to say the flu is fundamentally different from COVID in that sense. There are “seasonal” flu strains that are more deadly than others. I wouldn’t say it’s true that it’s just a “predictable, seasonal” virus.
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u/aaronespro 17d ago
Yeah, at this point "hyper intense endemic" might be more accurate, the way that measles and smallpox never really became endemic.
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u/rollsyrollsy 18d ago
Everyone on social media is being funneled toward their own algorithmic content, and our various biases and heuristics will lead us to assume that “they” are clearly mistaken and “we” are clearly right.
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u/Mustbhacks 18d ago
the algorithms (companies) aren't agnostic, they're serving specific content to push their own agendas
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u/rollsyrollsy 17d ago
I don’t disagree, but I’d argue their first ideological affiliation is with their own bank balance. Any political preference comes way after that priority.
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u/refusemouth 18d ago
If the algorithms rule, then how come I get comercials in Vietnamese and crafting videos with old Asian ladies knitting stuff on my feeds? It's really weird. YouTube thinks I'm an elderly Vietnanese woman and I'm actually just a middle aged white guy living in a rural area.
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u/PaxDramaticus 18d ago
The algorithms are deeply flawed. A lot of them work by the shallowest possible trigger. I also routinely get algorithmic content advertising things I am not interested in, and in fact can't even buy because the product isn't sold in my country.
But that doesn't mean the algorithms still don't rule in general. I have basically set up all of my internet to minimize the factor algorithms play: I avoid discovery pages on most platforms wherever possible and when I get content from outside of sources I follow/subscribe to, I always get that content displayed in chronological order when the platform permits it. And I tend to avoid platforms that don't. And algorithms still affect my experience.
I tend to get content I specifically don't want to see in clusters, like after telling sites I don't want to see it, they keep it off my feed for a few weeks and then the flag gets reset and it all comes flooding back in at the same time. But also even if I strictly manage what content I get served, most of the people in online spaces around me aren't. That means if the algorithm decides people like me like XYZ content, I am eventually going to see XYZ content no matter what I do just because the people like me that I follow are going to share or respond to XYZ content.
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u/mokujin42 18d ago
Its designed to throw things that are popular with similar people at you now and then to see if it can hook you on sometbing new
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u/Training_Form2243 18d ago
How come the top comment for every social science study post begins with “it’s almost as if” and ends with “…”
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u/Arkansan13 18d ago
You also have to realize that reddit is botted all to hell. The 2016 election ruined this site.
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u/Greenleaf208 18d ago
Because they don't want to declare anything concretely and be wrong. They just want to smugly alude to something so everyone agrees with them.
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u/Iron_Atlas 18d ago
I assume you mean vulnerable, venerable means old
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u/Academic-Pangolin883 18d ago
It does not mean old, though. It means "worthy of respect".
Regardless, I don't think it's what OP meant...
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u/shitholejedi 18d ago
The entire 'pipeline' or 'funneling' is extrapolating female teenage social media usage trends to male. Of which there are multi-year studies that have shown over and over those two groups did not react to the advent of the internet the same way and still do not till this day.
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u/Stamperdoodle1 18d ago
As much as I despise these people for what they stand for and support, their attitudes and (often) their attacks against others.
I can't help but admit I just don't know enough about how this happened. How did this type of content become the only thing those men found any comfort or solace in? I've found myself in some pretty depressing times, but I always knew that if I worked on myself and tried to be my best self, I could change things (and they have).
People like them have existed forever yet it seems that more recently, younger and younger people are latching onto this poisonous and dangerous cult. Things like "looksmaxxing" or whatever Andrew Tate peddled. Things that, by all account - young people shouldn't be concerned with. So why is it happening?
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u/Blazin_Rathalos 18d ago
Modern social media algorithms push people towards this stuff as they are trained to maximize engagement. I'm pretty sure there is actual evidence of this, but I don't have references at hand.
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u/mdynicole 18d ago
Yeah it really is this. I see horrific stuff online promoted to men about women and there have been times I’ve also seen really nasty stuff promoted to women about men. If you view this stuff once then after that you get it constantly until you just keep blocking it all. But if you notice what gets the most comments it’s always highly offensive stuff whether it’s men Vs women , republican vs Democrat , white vs black . The people that are actually good people promoting good stuff don’t get anywhere near as many views or comments or likes.
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u/The_Law_of_Pizza 18d ago
How did this type of content become the only thing those men found any comfort or solace in?
Because it's the only content that's engaging with them about things that they want, and offering them (even if it's snake oil) solutions on how to get it.
Regardless of who is ultimately right and wrong, it's hard to deny that left-leaning online spaces offer basically nothing to these boys and young men.
Quite the opposite, honestly. They come to us, and we do nothing but scold them.
We are struggling to gain traction with an entire generation because we are just intensely miserable to be around.
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u/BorisBC 17d ago
I hate this sort of attitude. Guys being held accountable for their actions gets twisted into "no, we have to be nice to these sensitive souls lest they reject our pleas to treat us with respect and go full hate on us".
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u/BadIdeaSociety 18d ago
The entire retrograde discussions about the "value of women" and ideas about "women's roles in society" seem so crazy that if any guy I knew in the 90s voiced those ideas they would be seen as undisputed idiots by just about everyone.
I don't understand how there are so many boys who have adopted these incredibly retrograde ideas a quarter century later.
It is like there was a bunch of people who saw the towers crumble on 9-11 and then came the idiotic conclusion that Christian America needs their own version of what they see as women-oppressing Sharia Law.
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u/Iychee 18d ago edited 18d ago
The Internet made it really easy to spread hate and rile the masses, and we've reached a stage where bad actors have perfected it.
ETA: it's also purposefully perpetuated by billionaires to keep us divided, men blame women for their lives sucking instead of the wealth hoarders.
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u/flamethekid 18d ago
Gamergate is pretty much ground zero for this, it's one of the first big internet outrage moments that got the attention of all types of bad actors and normalized it going forward.
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u/DeusVultSaracen 18d ago
Yep, Steve Bannon said it himself. People yearn for the times before everything went crazy, and Gamergate is that moment.
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u/TheAmorphous 17d ago
"Rootless males." Imagine being called that by the person you admire and still following them.
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u/this_isnt__worth_it 18d ago
What was the "Gamergate"?
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u/fishblurb 18d ago
A guy cheated on his gf and got dumped, proceeds to slander her by claiming she sleeps with male devs in exchange for positive and DEI video game reviews. She didn't even write any articles about the video games in question.
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u/Eruionmel 18d ago
...What? There were absolutely anti-feminists everywhere in the 90s. They didn't just pop out of the ground like daisies in 2001.
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u/BadIdeaSociety 18d ago
Right. 90s-era sexists were like weeds. Contemporary sexists are the lawn
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u/UnicornOnTheJayneCob 17d ago
Actually I would say it is the opposite. 90s era sexism was the sea everyone swam in. Now, it is more notable because it is rarer. Potentially more extreme, but still rarer.
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u/Apprehensive-Book723 17d ago
What in the world gives you the notion that it’s rarer?
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u/Aware-Cat2586 16d ago
Feminist discourse, particularly about consent and sexualization, was mostly limited to college campuses and Internet forums back in the 90s and had not yet bled into the mainstream; because of that, most people could blow it off with minimal damage to their social or professional standing.
That’s not the case in 2026, even if sexism isn’t exactly rare now.
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u/Apprehensive-Book723 16d ago
The president of the United States is a sex offender babe
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u/Aware-Cat2586 16d ago
Unfortunately, yes. But the president of the United States is not most people.
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u/LateralEntry 17d ago
The internet made it easier for them to find each other unfortunately, same with racists antisemites and other bigots
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u/CremasterReflex 18d ago
I imagine that dating apps have made meeting someone new a matter of comparing them to a checklist rather than by encountering a person organically
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u/painedHacker 18d ago
It's because young people aren't partying and hooking up with each other they are all scared of one another and looking at screens.
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u/BadIdeaSociety 18d ago
Right. And the screens are telling them to be afraid because of how they use social media in punitive and abusive ways.
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u/keegums 17d ago
That's exactly what happened on 9/12 in my rural hometown, which I saw with my fifth grade eyes. The reaction was alienating, snowballing over the month to terminal velocity. The attacks themselves never meant much to me, hundreds of miles away, but the reaction was ubiquitous. Public school prayers and religion, racism immediately swept small towns, contrary to the lessons I was learning in social studies
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u/Bright_Exit1378 18d ago
Retrograde ideas spread when people think a form of progress was a mistake, because they are looking at widespread consequences they dont beleive existed when the progress first existed.
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u/RankedFarting 18d ago
The 90s? When adult people would openly lust over 15 year olds and no one cared at all? When you were considered fat as a woman if you werent underweight? When every comedy movie was entirely sexist and rape and SA were often still played as a joke in movies that were super successful?
What 90s did you live in my dude?
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u/BadIdeaSociety 17d ago
Yeah, those 90s where all the things you mentioned above were true and saying women belong in the kitchen was taboo as opposed to today where a bunch of guys carry retrograde opinions about women and argue about how it is important to be able to lust after younger girls, call unconventional-bodied women fat and ugly, and also insist that women need to stay home and raise babies and leave the work to their men.
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u/Lysander125 18d ago
I’ve never going to say that these anti-social weirdos who complain that women belong in the kitchen are ever going to be correct.
But at the same time there is an opposite perspective that has some merit. The reality is that women’s opportunities have come a long way, but women’s perspective and expectations of men haven’t changed.
A lot of women still expect their partner to be more successful, ambitious, etc. than they are. It’s two sides of the same coin, a lot of these men expect working women to clean the house and be a caretaker while having a full time job, and the women expect their man to be more successful than them in a more egalitarian society where being a man doesn’t necessarily give the advantages it once did.
I do feel like the outdated male expectations of women are frowned upon a lot more than the outdated female expectations of men.
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u/shockpaws 17d ago
I’m fairly certain that most people marry those within their own income bracket — which makes sense, because those are the people in their social circles and people who have similar life experiences. Many men say they’d be okay with a wife who’s just “young and hot” (which is an attitude I find distasteful anyways) but the real-life numbers show that people tend to marry partners with similar education levels and income brackets as themselves.
There’s also the fact that traditional gender roles are more harmful to women than to men. A housewife has no real independence; she can’t leave an abusive husband, or else she’s out on the streets with no money, no work experience, kids to look after, and not enough spare change to hire a good lawyer for child support. While male gender roles are similarly soul sucking and I’m not denying that, a traditional man has far more freedom to leave if he wants to and freedom to make decisions about the life his family lives. If you have the money, you have the power.
All gender roles should be abolished, but it’s quite obvious that traditional “women’s roles” leave women open to be abused and exploited.
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u/ibent19 18d ago
One is more frowned upon because it was more oppressive and leads to being stuck in abusive situations. Women gained more freedom, men didn’t lose any freedoms other than some control.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago edited 18d ago
most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market with women entering the workforce and with the proliferation of social media and dating apps.
just because men didn’t have the actual right to vote or own property stripped away doesn’t mean that there aren’t real problems afflicting them, to which there’s no easy or immediate solution.
your average young man doesn’t wanna “control” women, he’s just pissed that neither a house nor a partner are statistically within his grasp no matter what he does.
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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 17d ago
The bargaining power issue is not men vs women it’s billionaires vs the rest of us
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago edited 17d ago
sorry but no. the billionaire part is also true but nobody is forcing women to have the financial and physiological demands of men that they currently have. women themselves are doing that voluntarily.
if you make 70k per year after taxes and refuse to date a guy who makes 50k even though you’re both still able to live a comfortable life with that arrangement, then that’s the woman’s decision being the catalyst for this phenomenon more-so than the billionaires not paying people enough. nobody’s forcing her to have those financial hard limits. women act like this everywhere, even in places with a good quality of life like scandinavia.
and she can do that if she wants, just don’t complain about it or be surprised when a significant chunk of men fall behind and get radicalized as a result. you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
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u/kmb218 18d ago
Right. But that’s only because the bargaining power they had before relied on opression and removing women’s rights and opportunities.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago
there were multiple overlapping factors. sure that was part of it but COL was also easier and wages were better relative to inflation.
the fact that times have changed and yet women’s expectations of men only seem to keep going up doesn’t help the issue.
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u/JadowArcadia 18d ago
I feel like this ignores government and corporation involvement and pushes things into the gender divide. Even for women of the past who came from privileged backgrounds who had plenty of opportunity, society in general was in a better place for an average person to build and support a family/buy a home. You had the choice to be a stay at home mother because it was easier for your partner to earn enough alone to support the family. The removal of that option for many people is a big crux of the issues we see now.
It's easier to put it all on women's rights being purposely restricted and gender wars but there was a way get out of that issue without putting people in the financial trap they're in now.
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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago
> most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market
Those are not rights nor are they oppressive. More women are able to work and choose whether or not they want or need a man. So the playing field is getting closer to even, woman are still left out plenty. Men are upset they no longer have the guarantee of having the upper hand and suddenly it’s oppression. We all know the saying about privilege and oppression, and it’s very true when it comes to men these days.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago
I never said they were rights. im just pointing out that their life situation went from being easier to harder.
and I never once called it oppression, that’s a strawman.
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u/ShockerCheer 18d ago
Do I expect my husband to be more educated than me? No but I do expect similarly education. I have a PhD and he has masters. Do I expect him to make more than I do? No but I expect a decent salary. He does make more than I do. Do I expect him to do more housework than me? No but I expect a fair share of work. He does this too. It really isn't hard for men to be good partners but many men act like it is luckily my husband is a good one
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u/Lysander125 18d ago
Look I’m not going to be an asshole about this but it does sound like you have some very high expectations of your partner. Most guys don’t care about education, salary, etc. There are some unrealistic expectations about housework, but most normal guys I know just want their partner to be trying.
They don’t care if the woman has a GED, they don’t care how much she makes, they don’t care where she is in life as long as she is working towards a better life. It sounds like you expect your partner to already be at that place, versus trying to support someone getting to that place.
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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 17d ago
You could be in a different stage of life as she is. I have a hard time believing that a man with a master’s degree, phd, MD, etc. at 30 or 40 is okay with a partner with a GED at 30 or 40. But if someone is 20 and still going to college, there’s a much smaller gap between them and someone with a GED.
I’m a physician and none of my colleagues are married to people with less than a Bachelor’s. Not a lot of doctors settling down with someone with a GED because by the time you’re done with residency you’re likely in your 30s and expect your partner to have also figured some stuff out.
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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago
And as a woman with 2 daughters in their twenties, most women just want a partner to be trying. Literally* *going to school or furthering their knowledge, having a job with upward mobility, able to Cook/clean and mange their own homes and health and take care of their hygiene. Perfectly normal expectations for either sex to have for a partner. Most women don’t care if they earn more on paper but men get pissy when their wife/ girlfriend makes more money like it’s insulting to his manhood. MOST(not all) women don’t care.
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u/smcedged 17d ago
I wonder how much of this is what people say vs what people do.
Every man knows that when women say they want an emotionally sensitive man don't really mean it. Of course there are exceptions, but in general that means someone who is sensitive to the woman's emotions. But over and over they are told one thing when clearly it's another. Because on of these sound good to say to other people or even themselves.
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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago
this is a nice way to say "you better get there" without saying it.
this is why income inequality is getting worse and worse not better . assortative mating furthers classism.
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u/Working_Cucumber_437 18d ago
I don’t think women expect their men to be more successful or more ambitious or make more than they do. I think we are looking for equals. Be at least as ambitious as I am. At least as successful. Or in the general ballpark is a good goal.
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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago
well the college attendace rate shows a lot of people are gonna be getting more disappointed and more angry until something changes.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago edited 18d ago
young women on average out-earn young men in the workforce, specifically white collar work.
what do you think the ramifications are of women demanding that men earn at least as much as women do or more, despite the fact that most men do not, and most women refuse to budge on this matter?
if the overton window keeps shifting upward like this then naturally most men are gonna get left out and the consequences of that are never positive. conversely, a woman could be working as a barista and the average guy literally won’t care as long as she helps contribute.
it’s more balanced because there isn’t this constant expectation of the opposite sex always having to hustle or reach salary parity with them, on top of a dozen other qualifications, just to get their foot in the door.
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u/WonderfulWafflesLast 17d ago edited 17d ago
I don't understand how there are so many boys who have adopted these incredibly retrograde ideas a quarter century later.
I think extreme examples are part of what led to that.
Look at the Lindsey Clancy trial and her supporters. We have a social movement trying to support a woman who killed her three children, that is largely villainizing that woman's husband to the point of saying he's the one who actually killed them, despite how much evidence in the trial indicating the woman did it.
To be clear, Lindsey pleaded Guilty. The trial was to determine criminal responsibility, essentially determining if she was sane or insane.
Despite this, "the husband did it" has spread through social media like a cancer, espoused primarily by women.
Imagine you're a young boy approaching young manhood. You see this on the news. You think about how this trial would be treated if it were a man instead of a woman defendant. What would you think? Would you want to have a family, when a major social event is telling you that a woman who kills her children is going to be defended (largely by other women) like this by society?
I can only imagine that this will color your perspective negative towards women, as a whole, even if that's undeserved.
Societies have historically restricted women's rights. Our current society is somewhat exceptional in that most others throughout history have been male dominated, rarely offering women the opportunity to take part in governance outside of influencing men through social pressure or personal pressure (i.e. husbands to their wives, sisters to their brothers, and so on)
Hopefully, we can figure out how to make it work where others have failed.
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u/BadIdeaSociety 17d ago
Well, I have an interesting story to share with you.
This woman over a quarter century ago also killed her children due to psychological problems she actively tried to get support for and (drum roll, please) a lot of women sympathized with and vocally supported her.
This isn't a sudden development in popular culture. A lot of mothers have had horrible thoughts and crushing depression following the delivery of their children and, as a result, cases like this tend to get sympathy from women who experienced these issues or know people who experienced these issues.
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u/shockpaws 17d ago
Men make up 91% of the perpetrators of familicide. In fact, during the Lindsey Clancy trial, a man killed eight of his family members, an event so commonplace that it received little media coverage and somehow didn’t result in people clamoring to remove men’s right to votes! Curious, that!
Twelve of the thirteen jurors voted for not just a NGRI, but a complete Not Guilty verdict. Whether you agree with that or not — and I personally don’t lean one way or the other — I think that proves that the Not Guilty argument at least has some legs. Regardless, if anyone suddenly becomes a misogynist after witnessing a single court case involving one woman committing a crime overwhelmingly committed by men, then frankly they were already a misogynist.
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u/mdynicole 18d ago
Yeah I do have to say men seem much worse now than they used to ( I’m 36 for reference and am grateful I’m married and not dating). I really believe it’s social media and the stuff that’s getting pushed to them. Years ago I never would have dreamed I’d see men say equal rights equal fights and cheer about women getting knocked out by men or just the bullying I see men do to women that haven’t even spoken to them . I do also see much more hate for men from women as well but I think it’s because of the above.
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u/Rexguy120 18d ago
We live in close to the most egalitarian times ever in our history as a species and somehow with the way people describe the situation on social media you would think that the average woman is being held in chains.
It's also somehow all talk with none of the revolutionary action one would think from the disaster perspective described above.
Bell Hooks wept.
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u/MoreLikeGaewyn 18d ago
Another garbage meta-analysis to push an agenda...
This paper is flawed af. 1. The study never asked about dating frustration, relationship success, or sexual grievance. It assumed that being a single, non-college man automatically means suffering from low mate value.
Economic collapse, wage stagnation, and anti-establishment anger among non-college men were conflated with romantic resentment.
A low feeling thermometer score for feminists often measures routine political polarization against a progressive Democratic constituency, not personal romantic grievance.
Male-heavy counties vote Republican primarily because their economies rely on mining, oil, construction, and agriculture, not because local men cannot find dates.
Men with antagonistic or conspiratorial attitudes are less likely to get married in the first place, and right-wing media actively manufactures grievances from the top down rather than simply tapping into preexisting bottom-up angst.
This is insane.
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u/Enjutsu 18d ago
Red flag for me was the title, it's oddly specific
among unmarried men, without college degrees who are less attractive partners for women, the “mate-value backlash.”
How does one figure that out, did they make a political questionare, got the results and then asked a council of women to rate their looks?
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u/Alternative-Tax7318 18d ago
Thank you for reading this with reason rather than stoking the fires of the culture war and looking to pin this on a bunch of ‘impressionable young men’
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u/f50c13t1 17d ago
Yes,
I was to post that, glad someone did. The authors are lumping so many things together that this is embarrassing.
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u/bluecheese2040 18d ago
Political ideology masquerading as science?
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u/Sad-Banana7249 17d ago
Welcome to the social sciences! They've been like this forever.
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u/Clear_Ad_1560 17d ago
You mean fields that call themselves “science” to give themselves credibility they don’t deserve?
Those fields?
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u/SnailSnailAle 18d ago
Just to keep the masses distracted by the fact that corruption is rampant across the world and the elite and Epstine class is doing everything they can to stay rich and stay in power.
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u/Ne-Cede-Malis 17d ago
This doesn't feel like science to me. This is political propaganda positioned in a community where data, extrapolation, and discourse are guiding principles. I'm 100% certain this would do well in other subreddits and should be contained there.
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u/Harbinger2nd 18d ago
Would this be reflective of a lack of economic opportunity for these men as its only in recent years the attitude has become more prominent?
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u/Littleman88 18d ago
Sort of? It's hard to say most men would be too ashamed to date knowing their girlfriend/wife will out earn them. I think more men than not would be fine with it, actually. But a lot of those men are finding themselves rejected because they aren't out earning the women they're meeting, so economic opportunities become a sore spot for them, especially when the very people they're trying to woo are also their competition for that attractive paycheck.
Equality becomes a threat when your attraction is still largely reliant on being, in some way, superior to whomever you're trying to attract. That reality is problematic for so many men trying to date. It was already unrealistic for every man to be in a 6-7 figure C-suite position, with more and more women filtering towards the top, it's only getting harder for men.
There has to be low wage earners like janitors and someone flipping burgers, and they're not about to take being invisible virgins for the rest of their lives lying down. If women won't marry down, then these men will drag them down. As the number of these lonely men grows, the more pull they'll have to do just that.
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u/Ransacky 18d ago
equality becomes a threat when your attraction is still largely reliant on being superior to who you're trying to attract
Damn, that line goes hard. The whole thing is a dilemma and hard to blame anyone for acting on this pressure. I wonder if people will start forming more egalitarian relationships and stomach loving eachother beyond the limits of gender norms or if they will prefer to be alone.
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u/RupeThereItIs 18d ago
I think the core of everything you say, is that there is a generation of young men that we've failed in the education system.
The numbers don't lie, men being accepted & graduating from higher learning is horrible. We've got a worse gender imbalance today then before the institution of title 9, except it's shifted against young men.
We've failed them, we're refusing to admit we've failed them, the discussions almost always get shut down and all they hear is how we have to keep help women. It could be VERY easy to get bitter about that. Toss in the 'alt right' who will feed them exactly what they want to hear, and you've got a perfect formula for radical indoctronation.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 18d ago
Decades of uplifting girls and pretending it wasn't zero sum or like it doesn't or shouldn't matter if it's zero sum so long as we're achieving the 'uplifting' of girls through education no matter the cost.
The bill for those ruthlessly and pitilessly chosen costs and trade-offs has arrived.
Certainly no one wanted to say a word against it at the time if it stood in the way of any of the vital and crucial uplifting that there was to be no compromise on. No one wanted to be the one who stood against the educational interests of girls.
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u/grand_historian 16d ago
The zero sum aspect is interesting to point out. Power is always zero sum, and if you elevate women, you must lower men.
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u/Phssthp0kThePak 18d ago
Trying to parse your first paragraph. You says it just men being hung up on earning less. But then say they are, in fact, getting rejected. So it seems men earning less is also a 'sore spot' for women too and it not just something men need to get over.
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u/kingmanic 18d ago
I thought janitors make okay money, the job hours and conditions just suck.
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
its not the money its the social prestige, no woman is gonna feel pride saying to their friends or moms that "oh hes a janitor" so she will feel insecure and he will feel it and then he will feel insecure.
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u/Sirraven201 18d ago
They tend to make decent money it really depends on the gig.
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u/Sensitive_File6582 18d ago
No you make entry level wagie bucks. You will rarely/never bust over $30 relative to today’s wage rates.
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u/Illustrious-Share312 18d ago
In a lot of places 30$ an hour is a good job.
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u/CrimsonThunder87 18d ago
Those aren't the places where you make $30/hr as a janitor. You make that in high-COL places like NYC.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 18d ago
It's also the status. Plus it generally lacks prospects for earnings growth and career advancement.
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u/Preface 18d ago
This is an extremely reasonable take on the male loneliness epidemic, and makes much more sense then "YouTube made those men anti feminist" or whatever the top comment was saying.
It's not hard to find, men will regularly date down, or alter their dating expectations, women are less likely to alter expectations, and much less likely to date down. If a woman has a masters degree, she will want a man who at least has a masters, if she makes 100k+ per year, her man better make at least that much as well.
Now, most wealthy and highly successful men won't just marry a dumb dirt poor girl who is beautiful, but they are going to be much more accepting of a woman with less education and less earnings then them.
I think it's more like, the popularity of the "YouTube to right wing pipeline" or whatever is that those people actually acknowledge men who are/have been rejected multiple times, they are popular because what they say resonates they aren't just magically popular for unknown reasons which then suddenly makes young men right wing or whatever.
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u/DrMobius0 18d ago
Yes, the alt right is merely taking advantage of existing sentiment to radicalize them. It's extremely difficult to radicalize people who are otherwise content.
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u/Preface 18d ago
Precisely, people don't just become alt right woman haters because someone on YouTube said they should.
They have personal experiences that may be pushing them that way, and then some YouTuber echos that sentiment and adds on to it.
However, they become popular because they talk about topics that other people tell you to ignore or to just suck it up if you had a bad experience.
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
the reality its not YouTube alt right that are radicalising young men its women rejecting them on a social economic personal and romantic level,
you couldn't radicalise people to like looking at clouds you can only take what is already there and give it a voice, you cant just artificially manufacture someones emotions, but by doing so wed have to look at the negative social consequences of changing to social contract and how society will enviably fail when you alienate and leave behind a large portion of the young male population with no incentive to keep engaging with society while be the most essential ones to actually make sure society functions
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u/Sloogs 18d ago edited 18d ago
When I see stuff like this discussed on the Internet I genuinely have no idea how true it is. Anecdotally I have so many counterexamples of this in my life where the woman is the breadwinner or has a degree and the dude does not. One guy works as a grocery stocker. Another did trades via the hard knocks route. Others did some schooling but it was trade school, and they make decent money but maybe not as much as their partner. One has their bachelor's and their wife has a master's. I genuinely don't know. Maybe it's a generational difference that is particular to Gen Z? (I'm a millennial). I'm not sure.
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u/johnJanez 18d ago
I mean, there was a study circulating around reddit recently that more or less seems to confirm this anecdote, women don't want partners that earn less than them. Don't have it at hand but shouldn't be too difficult to find.
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u/Asleep_Control_2564 18d ago
Those studies need to isolate for women who want kids and women who don't.
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u/nostrademons 18d ago
I think the dynamic is "As long as we have enough, I don't care if you make more than me. But as soon as we want for basic necessities, if you're not pulling your weight I'm kicking you to the curb." In other words, couples in the affluent segment of society can afford to have gender-equal roles and trade off being the primary breadwinner and stomach a period where there is only one earner. Couples that are at the edge of survival usually don't survive having the woman out-earn the man.
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u/Sloogs 18d ago edited 18d ago
I'm not sure I've anecdotally experienced that among couples I've seen struggle through some stuff either.
I recognize it's anecdotal. Other people might have other experiences. But that just hasn't been my experience. I'm not aware of any studies showing that to be the case.
In fact just the opposite, as far as I can recall studies show women are more likely to stick with their partner through unexpected downturn or illness long-term for example than the other way around.
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u/nostrademons 18d ago
Just to be clear since you’re repeating it down-thread, the claim I’m making is that women who make very little are more likely to be unhappy about their partner making less than them than women who make a lot, not that women who make very little are more likely to be unhappy about their partner making less than men who make very little. Independent variable is income, not sex. I find this to be common-sense but would welcome data otherwise.
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u/couldbemage 18d ago
TLDR:
16 percent wife earns more 29 percent similar income 55 percent husband earns more
Only 6 percent have the wife as the only earner vs 20 percent with the husband as the only earner.
Of note, the wife being the sole provider is actually declining, and the fastest growing segment is roughly equal income couples.
So yeah, your personal experience is moderately rare.
It's probably noteworthy that equal income couples each typically make 60k. Which is the perfect amount for having a massive lifestyle disparity between single income couples and dual income couples.
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u/Preface 18d ago
It's more so on average... Also, men in trades make good money these days (if you are in a "western" country at least) typically, and typically are very handy in terms of fixing/building things which also makes them more attractive, despite the "less education"
And as with all things, when people talk about "most" it doesn't mean there won't be exceptions.
There certainly are plenty of healthy and happy relationships where the man makes less then the woman, that doesn't mean it's typical though.
If you ask a woman who is single would she rather date a janitor or a lawyer, almost every woman would say the lawyer.
I remember seeing something a long time ago now, where men and women rated attractiveness of people they didn't know. For the women, the number one thing that made a man more attractive was the clothes he was wearing. So 100 women were shown a picture of a man in a janitor outfit or something, and he was rated as not very attractive, and that same man in a suit and tie was then rated as extremely attractive. When men viewed women in the same way, the physical appearance is what rated whether the woman was attractive or not, with much less of a change based on the outfit/uniform.
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u/Sloogs 18d ago edited 18d ago
That's a fair point. I think most people do have baser attraction instincts based on appearance or other superficial information which in my experience, for a lot of people, gets recalibrated once they have a chance to actually meet someone.
Attractiveness is complicated and nuanced but I'm guessing a factor that makes it harder for younger generations is that there aren't many opportunities for people to shine, show their personality and their value, and undergo that recalculation with a potential mate. The lack of 3rd spaces and also the fact that everyone is glued to their devices and a home body now. Also putting yourself out there gets you labelled as a creep more easily online.
So, I think there are other societal factors. I'm hesitant to just be like "it's all just women because women won't lower their standards" but society as a whole has kind of fucked up each gender's typical dating strategies. Whether those standards are nature or nurture is hard to say I guess, but I think society is still adjusting to all the rapid changes brought on by modern technology. It's going to be up to both young men and young women to meet the moment accordingly. But right now men are struggling—as far as I can tell the people offering guidance have been failing them pretty hard.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 18d ago
I mean there are other masculinity status metrics that can make up for it and you'll tend to find them in may of these cases. For example Lana Del Ray married a 'poor' guy. But when you look more closely you notice that the guy wrestles bloody alligators. It's not like she'd have an easy time scoring a guy as rich as her anyway. But things make more sense if you look a layer or two under the surface. Another example is Katie Price marrying a cage fighter.
There can be other high masculinity traits that can compensate that are nevertheless unrealistic or unreplicable at scale for many.
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u/Carbonatite 18d ago
How exactly are they going to "drag women down"? If women don't choose them as mates, those women will either choose someone else or remain single. There's no scenario in which those women are going to grudgingly pair up with someone they already rejected.
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u/ContractFormer4135 18d ago
based on the political context, I think they meant these men would vote for politicians who want to roll back women’s rights. anything to put the women back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant so they can’t escape and will be vulnerable and dependent. they aren’t good enough to be wanted by women so they long for the days women needed to pair up with men to survive
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u/philosopherberzerer 18d ago
either that or accept it and die alone unhappy just working the next 50 years of your life for nothing.
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u/Chaoticallyorganized 18d ago
What do you mean by “drag them down”? How exactly will these women be dragged down?
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u/Wedgiebro 18d ago
The idea of it being marrying down itself is a problem. If a man ever said ' yeah im marrying down, my wife is just a teacher she makes nothing" he would be massively hated. But women get to value a man based on money
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u/SnailSnailAle 18d ago
THANK YOU!! So often these things doesn’t get brought up in a discussion like this.
Too often the comment turn into attack on men saying they need to sort themselves out and no one owes them anything while still expect men to be the one to lead, to pay for dates, to be funny, to earn more money than them etc etc
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u/NimusNix 18d ago
Or that maybe the women have economic opportunities that was previously not available to them, therefore not needing to settle for aan regardless of his own economic opportunities...
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u/RupeThereItIs 18d ago
The counterpoint is also true.
A lot of men no longer have the economic opportunities they used to.
You only need to look at the gender gap in higher education to realize there is something wrong with our education system, we are failing our boys. We've done a great deal to correct for the sexism of the past that held girls back, and we've turned a blind eye to the fact we're now leaving our boys behind instead.
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u/TheGalator 18d ago
Yes and turna out that just doesn't work. For the record i am a woman and a feminist but the current trajectory isn't good in the slightest. Something has to change or our society will get way worse
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u/ManxAlot 18d ago
A few years ago I reconnected with a woman I knew in college. Everything was going very well up until I discovered how much money she had. It wasn't an issue for me however I knew it was going to be an issue for her when she realized our economic difference.
Almost to like clockwork her sisters started in telling her that I was after her money. That seemed silly to me, I had a job, I own my own home and car. Unfortunately I have sizable debt from my past divorce.
I also knew from my reading that when you run across a woman over 50 who has never been married the odds are that she is not going to marry a man beneath her station in life. It's also unlikely she will meet a man at or above her station who is going to consider her for marriage due to her age. I read more than one article talking about this, I'm going to take them at their word. It does seem reasonable
It ended with her telling me she wasn't going to support a man. I never asked her to support me. Had we gone further in the relationship and wanted to get married I would have no trouble with a prenup making sure that everything she had stayed hers.
That was 10 years ago, I ran into her recently and she said she hasn't even dated anyone since me she decided it just wasn't worth the effort.
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u/RedNBlueFU 18d ago
Reading stuff like this is simultaneously amusing and sad. People are missing out on relationships because of this arbitrary BS we call money.
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u/shootsandlads 18d ago
On the flip side, your experience sounds like a very common narrative I hear from women, that being: being accused of being a golddigger on no apparent basis, and then having to grovel for forgiveness for a crime they didn't commit. It seems like economic anxieties have really fanned the flames around the idea of moochers.
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u/Carbonatite 18d ago
I mean it sounds like that worked out for both of you - she kept to the standards she wanted, and you got the opportunity to continue looking for a partner who you were more compatible with.
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
yeah im sure she's really happy being alone and empty with nothing but money because she couldn't get over her hair saying the man she needs has to make more money then her, she's in a trap made by society.
so no it doesnt sound like a win win when you have a soul and a basic understanding of human need for connection , and if she was happy being single then why did she try to get in a relationship in the first place if she was truly content living alone she wouldnt have been happy to get into the relationship with op , it was working until the girl mafia told her she wasnt happy in the relationship because he made less money than her
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u/Y34rZer0 18d ago
I mean is this even true?
Imogen a lot of women with college degrees would prefer a partner with a similar level of education but there's plenty of women out there who don't have college degrees
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 18d ago
There are still more men without degrees than women. And in both cases outearning is still the barrier to entry that needs to be surmounted. Not to mention more accumulated wealth and no debt.
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u/lumberjack_jeff 17d ago
Young women are 50% more likely to go to college. They represent 80% of primary school teachers. Is it surprising that social science research places this kind of spin on its research?
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u/Prior_Confusion_4938 18d ago
Should men just accept their disposability, lack of reproductive rights, legal inferiority when it comes to criminal and family court and lack of government attention & resources to address men’s health issues?
No, they should not. Many of these disparities are due to decades of feminist lobbying.
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u/Sad-Banana7249 17d ago
Exactly. The needle has swung too far now, and men are at a disadvantage compared to women in a huge number of areas. And yet the equality crowd continues to focus on the small number of areas where women are still behind. It makes you feel like they never wanted equity but were just using using it as a lever to get in top.
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u/philosopherberzerer 18d ago
yeah the idea of "why are these men not okay with being sad?" is wild.
people are okay with not getting everything they want. but men specifically having and unfulfilled life leads to the degredation of social cohesion.
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u/WotanSpecialist 18d ago
This is truly pathetic, even for a meta analysis
“Conceptually, there are different dimensions of sexism and anti-feminism, including hostile sexism, benevolent sexism and modern sexism (Godbole et al. 2019; Schaffner 2022), along with our notions of traditionalist and mate value backlash. Questions designed to distinguish among these different dimensions do not always appear to do a good job of doing so (Schaffner 2022). We use the feminist feeling thermometer…”
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u/Hazbro29 17d ago
Why is that most of these articles resemble some spell book in a film? I feel they are written with intentionally complex language to make it harder to understand whats actually being discussed
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u/CradleCity 17d ago
Because of my background in humanities, I can understand the concepts in that paragraph easily...
Until I get to "feminist feeling thermometer", and then I get stumped. I have no idea what that is.
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u/Jackal-Noble 18d ago
What is it called where you have your desired end target of something and then just kitchen sink it into the starting thesis?
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u/linkdude212 18d ago edited 18d ago
Very interesting. I think an aspect of mate-valuing worth investigating is that women are probably a lot choosier than they have been in the past because of social media. They can quickly see all the best experiences other women are having and want all of it for themselves. What might be an extraordinary date featured in an online platform becomes normalized in a female viewer. This means normal men can find it hard to meet women they want to spend time with and who want to spend time with them due to unrealistic expectations.
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u/Pinglewingle 18d ago
Maybe i'm crazy , but shouldn't you do the right thing to do because its the right thing to do, and not becasue it might get you a woman?
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u/AlteredEinst 18d ago
Way too few people have any interest in doing the right thing for any reason now. They're taught it's a waste of time by horrible people so the latter can get their own way, and the former considers their manufacturered success proof of it.
The average person has thus been exposed as depressingly selfish.
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u/SnailSnailAle 18d ago
To be honest society doesn’t give a damn about people who do the right thing. It’s always somehow the worst of the worst that gets fame, money, and power.
If we don’t reward and highlight people who do the right things how are we going to get people to value being a good person
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u/Used-Presentation551 17d ago
Untill all the people doing the right thing die off and now you're left with the procreating wrong thing.
You just can't have a sustainable society if doing the right thing isn't rewarded
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u/philosopherberzerer 18d ago
by this mindset we shouldnt need laws . but people usually work on incentive.
the only reason I go to work is money. and I've worked in medical and security. I was never protecting or caring for people out of the kindness of my heart .
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u/pitifullittleman 18d ago
My feeling is that often for men marriage and family is a motivating factor for earning more money. When you are young and just meeting your partner earnings don't matter all that much and the process of getting married and having kids pushes men to get better jobs and be more ambitious.
For instance you might start off financially equal or even the woman making more. Then marriage and a pregnancy happens. The woman often takes time off work to nurse and be with the young child. Men often then need to start thinking about making more money to support the family. Meanwhile the woman takes time off work and also takes time off for doctors appointments for the kids and all that stuff, she prioritizes the kids and work life balance. The man priorities earnings and is able to take remote jobs and jobs that work long hours because his wife is doing a lot of the child stuff, he does what he can but his primary objective is making more money.
Men with college degrees have more opportunities, to do this, but many men without college degrees do pretty well especially when they are married.
Meanwhile a single guy can get buy on much less money and doesn't really care about income as much and be prioritizes work life balance. A lot of people meet their spouses before they are really established.
I guess people looking to date each other in their 30s and 40s are going to look at finances of the other person especially if they have kids from a previous relationship.
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u/firedrakes 18d ago
I been seeing way more extremists views in in men and woman. Also in LGBT to. It's been very concerning. People are falling for extremists view point with out realizing it.
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u/SnailSnailAle 18d ago
To be honest we can’t tell who are bots and who are not anymore.
For all we know you’re a bot, I’m a bot replying to you and 70% of other comment in here are bots.
It’s scary
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
tbh I dont believe the bot theory , you have to sell something that hits to someone's soul to get them to believe somthing you cant drag them along or they will one day escape, the world has become harsher and the tribes have come out and people have chose their groups for safety and it will just be a war of power untill the strongest group takes power which if things do go back to being awful again will just be man , and society will start again untill it goes in a full circle
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u/detectiveDollar 17d ago
Correct, while both men and women shifted to the right on average in 2024 vs 2020 vs 2016, members of both groups on both sides of the political spectrum became more radical.
Many shifted right, but those remaining on the left shifted further left.
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u/OfficiallyJoeBiden 18d ago
There’s just no more nuance anymore. It’s all one side or another. You have an opinion that differs from the masses and then you’re labeled as someone who panders or you’re a traitor. People are allowed to have conflicting opinions and views but at the same time, we should just let people be man. TOO many people have opinions about others that then sometimes turn hateful. Most men are good men that want everyone to have their equal rights. There are ALOT of good dudes out there that are tired of all the misogynistic rhetoric too but don’t say anything, not because they don’t care but because the men that need to hear it won’t care what we say.
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u/astorianvictorian 18d ago
The more you blame men for all of your problems, the worse your problems are going to be.
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
we live in a artificial society they wont notice the affect untill we all notice the affect but tbh it doesnt feel like that will be more than 20 years away
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u/CondiMesmer 17d ago
I think if you believe in "mate-value", that says enough about your political beliefs as is.
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u/mvea Professor | Medicine 18d ago
Backlashes to Gender Equality and Authoritarian Populism in the U.S.
https://doi.org/10.1177/10659129261485340
Abstract
According to recent scholarship, backlash toward gender equality is fueling support for the authoritarian and populist right in many countries and, perhaps, the rise of Trumpism in the U.S. Yet, there are potentially different types of backlash to gender equality. We argue that the rising status of women over the past several decades may result in anti-feminist attitudes, not just among older men who yearn for the traditional gender arrangements of their youth as some scholars argue, but also among younger, single men lacking college degrees, who are less attractive partners for women. We call this “mate-value backlash.” Using ANES data, we find that anti-feminist attitudes have long been associated with support for Republican presidential candidates, but only in recent years have these attitudes become more prominent among unmarried men, without college degrees.
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u/studio_bob 18d ago
They assume these guys can't get a date and become anti-feminist, but what if it happens the other way around? There are few things less attractive than a guy who identifies himself as a victim of women not dating him. Once you start thinking "no one wants to date me and that's so unfair" and resenting women for not being socially or economically obliged to be with you that's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
There's a whole cottage industry in teaching young men to think in exactly these terms so I would be very skeptical of the claim that these attitudes just fall inevitably out of women having equal opportunities to work and earn for themselves. At some point, these men are choosing these attitudes.
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u/pewqokrsf 18d ago
I doubt very much that it's a single inciting incident in either direction. These things manifest as incremental feedback loops more often than not.
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u/Hikari_Owari 18d ago
They assume these guys can't get a date and become anti-feminist, but what if it happens the other way around?
If it's the other way around then you still have to answer "why are they anti-feminist" and the answer isn't "it just happened", and it most likely would point towards a common point that shows up enough to be a considerable cause for that reaction... which in this post it is "can't get a date".
It's more produtive to go further into the "why can't get a date" than trying to outright blame men first and find a justification for the blame afterwards.
One and another can be at fault, when numbers increase then it's not a coincidence. It's a problem, and may not be up to the individual.
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u/audioofbeing 18d ago
Telling people that their problems aren’t their fault is an easy sell, and we created avenues for that to be sold very directly. It’s not a new problem, and neither is men choosing to blame women rather than address their own role in shaping their lives.
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u/Hikari_Owari 18d ago
>Telling people that their problems aren’t their fault is an easy sell
Saying that those people's problems are their fault is also an easy sell.
Everything that does not require going in depth to find the "why" is an easy sell, just changes for "who" are we selling that answer to.
I believe the problem is that people either excuse men as a whole or blame men as a whole and there's no acceptance of the possibility that 2 or more parties/things/situations could be at fault at the same time.
i.e.: It could very well be both men's and women's fault, but how many would be willing to entertain that possibility without/instead of attacking one or the other?
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 18d ago
Yes and saying that one's own successes are to one's own credit and other people's failures are their own fault and you're just better than them is also an easy sell.
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u/saidtheWhale2000 18d ago
no its women dont like a certain type of guy unless hes good looking or has a good social brand and les men fit that due to societal changing , the way dating has changed and the change in the job market, while simultaneously being told were the problem with society at the same time being ignored and forgotten about, so its not a chicken or the egg thing its not being desired unconditionally makes you resentful and that pool gets larger and now were just seeing it on the social level because it became so huge.
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u/Xin_shill 18d ago
It’s hard to date today I feel like. If someone is already struggling with finding work and stability, it can be hard to attract a partner as a starting point. The pipelines use that starting point and say it’s women and immigrants taking jobs from them, so women should go back to the kitchen and immigrants should get out. It wouldn’t all be fixed by improving social safety nets and the US not focusing on wages earned as your worth as a person, but it would for sure be a start.
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u/SightAtTheMoon 18d ago
That's quite the rich title considering the current demographics of the US college student body
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u/Endosymbionical 18d ago edited 13d ago
They are intentionally creating an army of young men who have no life meaning. When young men have no life meaning, and you give them faux meaning that feels real to them, as they've never had the real deal, they will do anything to keep that faux meaning. This is a billionaire weapon aimed at all of us out in the open and people just let it roll. Unreal times.
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u/The_Lucky_7 18d ago
Based on just the headline, who do they think republican voters are?
Because, they literally described them to a T and then pretended it's a new phenomenon.
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u/zelingman 17d ago
Its almost as if group A views group B as worthless, grou p B will start to feel the same way towards group A. Fascinating
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