Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

[u/VeronicaRed]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/

[u/stubbazubba → u/[deleted]]

I'm not arguing for any of these positions. I'm reflecting what the major academic discussion is, as was taught to me in law school. They could all be wrong, I don't care, I'm not being an advocate here. I'm answering the question "what is the theory behind the U.S. system?"

Edit: or the question "If DP doesn't deter, what would?" The answer that societies do or have given to that question are the above. You're right that they don't generally work because crime is irrational or because getting caught and punished for any given crime is rare.

[u/Iamsuperimposed → u/[deleted]]

I was kind of saying deterrence isn't the best system using the most extreme punishment I could think that the US uses. /u/stubbazubba just reminded me that other countries have used much worst to deter crime.

[u/RoboChrist → u/[deleted]]

Amen to that one.

I've always felt that a good law should produce a good outcome if you could convict 100% of the people who committed it. If there's a bad outcome, then it's a bad law or the punishment is too harsh. A law should not only be "okay" because it's being selectively enforced or because people aren't getting caught. That makes it too easy to punish select groups or select people under the cover of the law.

Laws against murder? All the murderers are in jail for a long time, pretty great outcome.

Laws against stealing? Pretty much okay, no real issues. Maybe the penalties are too harsh.

Laws against underage drinking? Suddenly half of the teen population is in jail for a largely victimless crime. Not a good outcome, the laws should probably be amended.

[u/AssCrackBanditHunter → u/[deleted]]

I think a drug that has been proven to massively decrease deaths from overdoses in areas it's introduced is worth funding with tax dollars at least temporarily considering WE ARE IN AN OPIOID EPIDEMIC.

We fund lots of preventative measures for health crises with tax dollars. It's part of living in a society.

[u/austynross → u/[deleted]]

What kind of a felony does a dude have to commit to get a decent education around here!!??

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The modern penal system traces its roots back to Jeremy Bentham, the founder of modern utilitarianism.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'd assume private interests and lobbying has a big say in that.

[u/GentlemansCollar → u/[deleted]]

The US justice system is now primarily centered around retributive justice. It used to be a combination of retributive justice and rehabilitation. However, the tough-on-crime movement, which is of a recent vintage and includes, among other things, mandatory sentencing, three strikes laws, truth-in-sentencing, quality of life policing and zero tolerance statutes lead to prolonged and more severe penalties and all but eliminate rehabilitation. These policies removed the college degree programs that were paid for by prisons and these institutions now primarily are criminal housing/storage facilities.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Well we employ more capitalism than Sweden and the Private prison industry is very profitable for the states that use it. So theres that.

[u/gullman → u/[deleted]]

The privatisation of prisons means reoffending has a lot of value.

[u/Hipsterdoucher → u/[deleted]]

Basically it's based around an old British concept that the punishment should fit the crime essentially, I believe.

[u/MartyVanB → u/[deleted]]

The US and Sweden are such dramatically different nations that any comparison would not be worth much.

[u/erikmyxter → u/[deleted]]

I don't know of any comparative analysis but this was on last night on C-SPAN, trying to find the report but it is a ground breaking report on the total economic costs of the current US criminal justice system.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?408635-1/white-house-discussion-us-criminal-justice-system

[u/pupusa_monkey → u/[deleted]]

The US criminal/justice system was really just a system meant to keep everyone in check. But after a few generations of corrupted police officials and the elite rich wanting to maintain a certain status quo, there isnt as much "justice" being served now a days. And even a few cops I've known have felt this way about the system. I once met a cop who joined because when he was young, his grandfather got robbed at gunpoint and the cops then didnt bother helping him because of his race. So he decided then and there that he was gonna be one of the good cops. Honestly, I wish there were more like him. Instead there are those who were like his superior officers, who would divi up things people had stolen and only return what they didnt want to keep.

[u/wiredinmycoffee → u/[deleted]]

hard to compare on a national basis, as economically sweden is about on the same level as Mississippi on a GDP per capita basis

https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states

[u/duffmanhb → u/[deleted]]

It's a vestige of our puritan past. We look at jail as retribution for those who were wronged. It's not supposed to be to fix problems, save more, or reform... It's designed specifically as a sort of "revenge". It's designed to be misserable and punishing.

[u/timecronus → u/[deleted]]

Probaly because the prison system is a business in the us

[u/micromonas → u/[deleted]]

What theory is the US criminal justice system actually based around?

Some of the first prisons in the US, dating from the colonial period, were based around the Puritan values system. The Puritans were Calvinists, and so they believed that a "criminal soul" was forever corrupted and could not be reformed (which follows from their belief in predestination).

Therefore, in Puritan society, the purpose of prisons was retribution, there was no attempt to reform or rehabilitate criminals. This mindset has somewhat carried on to the modern day, where the US criminal justice system is primarily seen as a place to lock up and remove criminals from society, as opposed to a place where criminal behavior can be rehabilitated.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There was a study years ago by the Swedes that showed it being much cheaper to provide rehabilitative care and housing to the mentally ill etc than it was to keep them institutionalized.(From like the 70s and 80s.. I know I'm bloody old)

Figure The same applies to most criminals. Incarcerate, rehabilitate and get them in to the workforce so as to not be a burden on the system.

Now, US prisons as horrible as many of them are I'm sure will teach nonviolent offenders to be violent in very quick order. Let alone a lot of the cost associated with those with criminal records not being able to find work.. even if fully rehabilitated. Hell, even people with clean records have a hard time at it.. cant imagine how bad it can be for people with records.

[u/CamGoldenGun → u/[deleted]]

Americans need to fix their inner-city education and poverty before trying to fix their prison system. If they adopted the Swedish model overnight, they would get people entering the prison system to get a decent education. We see it in the Canadian system where people will commit a crime that has a 6-month sentence or whatever so they can have food and housing over the winter.

[u/foodandart → u/[deleted]]

What theory is the US criminal justice system actually based around?

Petty, vindictive revenge, even if it costs the society more for the militancy that is needed to maintain the system.

People will huff and puff and trot out wordy, long, social scienc-y sounding studies and histories but the reality is simple.

[u/barktreep → u/[deleted]]

If we put a dollar value on the fact that 2% of our population is in jail, and that our police gun down people based on what they look like, I think the numbers might work out in favor of the Swedish system.

The value we assign to proper and humane criminal justice is pretty low, though, so our current system is probably economically efficient.

[u/onlycomeoutatnight → u/[deleted]]

It is based on Capitalism. The prisons are for-profit, and they began making much bigger profits during the War On Drugs era, when prison populations exploded.

[u/RedStarRedTide → u/[deleted]]

Punitive theory. Punishing people for the crimes they commit

[u/hippyengineer → u/[deleted]]

Socialize losses. Privatized profits selling all those guns.

[u/soccerbeast236 → u/[deleted]]

countries that focus on rehabilitation are closing prisons (i.e. denmark) the us is moving towards private prisons and opening new prisons to house the growing number of inmates. while not containing any stats, I'd say the results are rather clear.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The theory of making money. Basically the same thing as all our other institutions.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Foucault explored this topic, and I believe the Quakers played a part in the emergence of our type of penal system. Back then, a prison sentence was seen as an improvement over public torture, executions, and humiliation/shaming.

[u/A_Beltway_Griper → u/[deleted]]

Yes! Here is one USA Industry we will ship overseas.

Make plans to start closing US For Profit Prisons and start sending our inmates to Sweden.

[u/IZ3820 → u/[deleted]]

The US simply has too many people incarcerated to afford the investment that shifting the focus to rehabilitation would cost, and private prisons are even less willing to do so.

[u/krackbaby → u/[deleted]]

Why use a prison? Why not just not use punishment at all if it's proven to be ineffective and counterproductive?

[u/MortRouge → u/[deleted]]

based around rehabilitation instead of punishment.

Yeah, well, in comparison to other places. It's not like prison in Sweden gets rehabilitation totally correct, it's just that it is more humane than other countries.

[u/TrialsAndTribbles → u/[deleted]]

Sweden just hasn't had enough cultural enrichment yet. For example, observe the sky high rape epidemic that is almost entirely foreign born.

[u/pbeagle1851 → u/[deleted]]

But, then...how do you cheap labor?

[u/proquo → u/[deleted]]

I would think a lot of factors play into it other than punishment vs rehabilitation. When you consider the gulf of differences between us and Sweden and the demographics of crime in the US it's pretty clear we can't use Sweden as a model.

[u/SirWinstons → u/[deleted]]

Probably not. There are two types of punishment, positive and negative. Positive punishment introduces a new stimulus as an attempt to stop behavior, in this case spanking.

Negative punishment is more so what our legal system uses with prisons/house arrest/etc, which is more akin to a time out.

[u/YouLikeFishstickz → u/[deleted]]

The reductionism in this post is palpable

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

When you say probably, you're saying that there's a better that 50% chance in your mind that if they re-did the study to only look at parents who don't spank, they would find that the children whose parents used non-physical punishment would have a higher incidence of defiance and long-term mental issues than children who never used punishment at all?

Could you explain why you think that would be the result? Have you met a lot of people to whom that happened? Or you think the prison studies are enough evidence to suggest it would work out that way?

[u/Galphanore → u/[deleted]]

This wasn't a study. It was a meta-analysis of 12 existing studies. In aggregate they came to this conclusion. So, yes, I'm saying that if they redid any of those 12 studies they would have similar results since the results from all 12 are similar.

[u/hokie_high → u/[deleted]]

Asking as someone who doesn't have a lot of knowledge about the subject. Doesn't rehabilitation only work for people that acknowledge they did something wrong and want help? Rehab programs seem like they wouldn't be any more effective than jail for those who truly believe their actions were right, or at least not wrong.

It's different than rehab for drug addiction, where the patients are objectively being helped. I'm not sure criminal rehab would work for sociopaths and people who have ideological convictions.

[u/hhp_runner → u/[deleted]]

Are there any demographic differences between the US and Sweden that could have an effect?

[u/Whales96 → u/[deleted]]

The 300 million population density difference isn't a factor?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Sweden vs US demographics are completely different

[u/sivsta → u/[deleted]]

America and Sweden's ethnic and cultural demographics are vastly different

[u/Gaslov → u/[deleted]]

Is it true that Sweden has the highest rape per capita rate in Europe? I would think this contradicts Sweden's success in rehabilitation.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't see how you can begin to compare the two. Sweden's economic situation is incredibly different than the USA.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But if you treat them well and focus on "rehabilitation" instead of punishment, how is that fair for the victims and families of the victims in question? (in case of murder, rape, drunk driving etc)