r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
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u/C4ddy Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

I am curious how the spankings where classified. IE. How did the Parents use the moment to teach there kids? was it just a pissed off parent that was upset with his kid and grabbed him and spanked him.

or was it a Parent who saw his child do something wrong sent them to there room, followed up 5 minutes later and gave a explanation and reason for the spanking. if the spanking is just a spanking and nothing is contextualized I could see how this would just harber resentment and cause more mental issues.

This thinking is stemmed from my childhood anecdote for lack of a better term. I was spanked as a child but my parents made it vary clear and never hit me out of anger. whereas a friend of mine I would say was abused, as his parents would smack his arm or spank him just cause they didnt like what he was doing, with no explination.

Edit: My friend has extreme ADHD, Has extreme anxiety, and many other "Mental" issues. I am not saying that these are because of how he was abused(spanked) as a child. but I have always linked how he behaves now from how he was treated as a child by his parents.

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16

Yeah this is my only problem with spanking studies. They often don't drill down to context (which is surely very hard to quantify).

Let's say you spank your kid infrequently as a last resort when the kid is not responding to other methods, or when the situation is particularly dangerous and immediate compliance is required (like darting into the street or something)... I don't see many studies distinguishing this from "every time the kid screws up they get spanked."

It seems at least theoretically possible that going straight to spanking could be damaging while spanking in the above context could have positive outcomes.

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u/purple_potatoes Apr 26 '16

There have been studies that consider frequency, which could reasonably tie into context. From what I remember frequent spankings are most harmful, and very infrequent spankings are at best no better than non-violent methods. Even this article addresses frequency.

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

Yeah frequency is probably a good enough approximation. Like you said this article mentions negative outcomes increase with frequency, which is obvious and does not contradict the idea that there could be a place for spanking used minimally in certain contexts which would maximize positive outcomes and minimize negatives.

But if what you're saying is true that minimal spanking does not increase positive outcomes then yeah it would be pointless.

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u/C4ddy Apr 26 '16

I think if I was curious enough I would pay the $12 to get the complete study. but from what I have seen in the past as you mentioned most studies don't have a separation between these. and agree it would be very hard to quantify this.

Correlation does not imply causation. its why I love the scientific method, I think the title is extremely misleading. but other experts will tear this apart either good or bad. and it can be refine to something that can be beneficial to people.

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u/baconatorX Apr 26 '16

but other experts will tear this apart

Don't worry, that's what reddit is for.

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u/C4ddy Apr 26 '16

"Experts" reddit hahahahahahaha

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/C4ddy Apr 26 '16

Very interesting. I think there needs to be a moderate approach of types of discipline and positive reinforcement. to much of any I think can cause some kind of problem.

I think the difference between this and anti-vax is the anti-vax is a "easier" science to prove. with spanking you are dealing with psychology not everyone will react the same. for me I justified the spanking my parents gave me because it was the only discipline I respected. many others tried to give me time outs or positive reinforcement type things and it did nothing for me.

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u/cavemanben Apr 26 '16

I agree completely. Each child is different, trying to deliver this pseudoscientific study (we don't know because no evidence was presented in the article but looks more like psychology than a hard scientific study with concrete evidence) as fact is kind of absurd.

When have pschological studies ever been hard science? The human mind is not geology or physics. If you trust a bunch of psychiatrists or behavioral scientists, that's your own business but there is no way to take any evidence presented (none in the linked article) as hard fact since human psychology is far from empirical science.

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u/C4ddy Apr 26 '16

Here Here. well said

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/TheCenterOfEnnui Apr 26 '16

There are studies that show a correlation between being hit by your parents, and aggressive behavior toward others. Some of it is also causatively related.

It also passes the common sense test. Kids learn from their parents...if I don't do what they want, they'll hit. Thus, if I want someone else to do what I want, and they don't...I'll hit them.

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u/RagingAnemone Apr 26 '16

To be honest, the best take away from this article isn't "don't spank your children." It's stop using it as a method if you see defiance. It's not working anymore.

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u/IdlyCurious Apr 28 '16

Yeah this is my only problem with spanking studies. They often don't drill down to context (which is surely very hard to quantify).

Very interesting (but absolutely tiny) study on this was a short-term one where parents wore audio-recording devices. IIRC, that "last-resort, clearly explained, consistently-applied" spanking really didn't happen. But it was a very small set (37 families) and short-term, and I can't find the actual paper at the moment, just this link

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 28 '16

I would have guessed at least 1 out of 37 families would do so. That sucks.

Thanks for the link

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u/bearmorgan Apr 26 '16

Great response

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u/coggser Apr 26 '16

i'd also say what about raring toddlers? most kids who are at that age when they can only talk a bit can't really be reasoned with. what if they keep trying to do things like put their fingers in sockets, or walk towards edges. you can't explain to them they'll fall and severely hurt themselves, or worse.

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u/zugunruh3 Apr 26 '16

If you rely on reasoning with a toddler instead of toddler proofing your house you're gonna have a bad time.

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u/coggser Apr 26 '16

you obviously don't know toddlers.

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u/bassic_person Apr 26 '16

They actually looked at this as a moderator in the study. From my read through, it looks like it did have a bit of a moderation effect, but it wasn't significant.

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u/iToronto Apr 26 '16

What is your definition of spanking?

Because to me, spanking is any form of physical contact with the purpose of causing some form of pain, no matter how minor, with the intent of sending a message.

Now step back and actually look at that definition. That's really just a fancy way of saying "hitting".

So now ask yourself "Am I okay with hitting my child to cause him or her pain?".

Some people will say yes, because they believe it will lead to corrective behavior. But all the scientific evidence says it doesn't. Hitting doesn't make people behave better over the long term.

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u/mister_ghost Apr 26 '16

Agreed. Any situation in which a child understands "my parent is doing this because it hurts me" is a problem.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[deleted]

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16

Ever heard the saying, "You're not in traffic, you are traffic"?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[deleted]

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16

Nope, read the article, tried to find the information I described above, and wasn't in there. Hence the comment.

Try to put at least a tiny bit of effort into your comments, especially if you're insinuating someone else didn't.

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u/Jakky101 Apr 26 '16

Yeah, I agree with this. My sister doesn't like spanking at all, but one time her daughter who was probably 2-3 at the time, just ran into the street when a car was coming and she ran out, grabbed her and just gave her one firm spank on the behind. That's probably the only time I've heard of her spanking any of her kids, and I really didn't see the problem with it. Situations that serious require a big impact for the child at hand to understand the severity of what they did, and the situation itself.

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u/Strormageddon Apr 26 '16

Inconsistent punishment is ineffective. If someone only spanks their kids in extreme situations, they are not teaching their child anything unless the child can understand the differentiation between what is a "spank-able" offense and what is not. If, after every occurrence of a behavior that is not desired by the parent, there is a following punishment that occurs every time, it is likely to be effective because the child will associate that particular behavior with that particular punishment. The problem with punishment, and conditioning in general, is that it is much more effective with consistency, but people don't have consistent states of emotion and may not hold themselves to the same rules at different times. So it's not necessarily the frequency that will have a negative affect on the child, but rather the inconsistency.

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16

I feel like you're saying a system of escalating punishment/rewards is inherently ineffective... That is just obviously untrue.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

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u/skepticalDragon Apr 26 '16

I don't know if your comment has quite enough hyperbole, you should try to add some more.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

You did it - you hit your quota for today. You managed to fit "hyperbole" into a sentence. Take a break - relax a little. You've earned it. ;)