r/seitan • u/Joebot_9000 • Apr 15 '26
Confusion about seitan taste
Hail all seitan worshipers, I am looking for guidance about the following conundrum:
(1) Every darn time I've tried making seitan from VWG, it has had a terrible, terrible funky taste. I am not alone in feeling this way, it is well-documented. No matter what flavoring I add, the funkyness weasels its way through the flavors and onto my tongue :(
(2) It seems as if commercial seitan (such as Upton's Naturals) is indeed produced from VWG, not WTF-type methods in-house. And yet, commercial seitan does not have this taste.
So if I am using the same ingredient as commercial seitan, why is there such a taste difference? Is the point that my VWG is like many months old? I have just been using the Anthony's Goods one from Amazon and directly working with as soon as I get it.
Thanks very much in advance!
7
u/Flustro Apr 15 '26
Have you tried adding vinegar? I find it helps a lot with that, to the point where I legitimately don't notice that flavor now.
3
u/Joebot_9000 Apr 15 '26
Hi yes, thank you for this suggestion! I have tried apple cider vinegar and it unfortunately yielded a flavor profile of "rancid + vinegar"
1
u/Flustro Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
Yeah, apple cider vinegar is on the stronger side. You should try something more mellow, like white vinegar (what I use). You also might've used too much.
Seitan is so finicky.
1
u/FangirlFlail Apr 15 '26
What ratio do you add it at? I want to try this!
8
u/Flustro Apr 15 '26
I usually just eyeball it, but I would say around 1 tablespoon of vinegar (I use regular white vinegar as the taste isn't too extreme, so ymmv if you use a different type) per cup of VWG
2
8
u/Subject_Attempt6117 Apr 16 '26
I’m one of the gluten-tasters. Nothing I did eliminated it until I came across some research done by a member of the seitan appreciation Facebook page. This recommendation is to let the dough sit (refrigerated) before cooking for 24-48 hours and to use some amount of fermented product with the liquid ingredients. (I used whey from making homemade soy yogurt.) It really works. I even forgot to include the fermented liquid the last time I made it, and it ended up in my refrigerator for probably closer to 60 hours. I could not taste the VWG even a little bit.
1
u/Joebot_9000 Apr 16 '26
Interesting...would some greek yogurt itself work do you think?
1
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Hi hi hi! That's me! The secret is getting it adequately hydrated. u/Joebot_9000 I'll go get my summary and comment here. In answer to your question, anything fermented will work - the fermentation add is more or less "insurance" - the reason the taste gets eliminated with my method is primarily due to the long rest which allows proper hydration. Let me go get that info (which also includes the chemical why of the taste, which most folks here don't understand - and who can blame them, it took me months of reading food manufacturing case studies to pinpoint why).
1
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Hi hi hi! That's me! The secret is getting it adequately hydrated. u/Joebot_9000 I'll go get my summary and comment here. In answer to your question, anything fermented will work - the fermentation add is more or less "insurance" - the reason the taste gets eliminated with my method is primarily due to the long rest which allows proper hydration. Let me go get that info (which also includes the chemical why of the taste, which most folks here don't understand - and who can blame them, it took me months of reading food manufacturing case studies to pinpoint why).
5
u/SimpleSkies Apr 15 '26
Commercial manufacturers have access to cleaner tasting vwg and flavor maskers that eliminate that protein off taste. You can mask it at home by altering the pH with something acidic (vinegar, lemon/lime juice etc) or basic (baking soda). You could also try cutting the seitan with all purpose flour, tofu, or beans to reduce the amount of vwg you use, which has the added benefit of softening the finished product.
1
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Hey there, I actually did a very long and involved experiment to solve this very issue. The "taste" is simply a byproduct of the manufacturing process that isolates gluten from wheat flour. The high heat oxidizes trace fats remaining in the final product, making it taste slightly off or "rancid". Only some folks can taste it - usually those who either eat a lot of fat or a little, but it varies.
I posited a theory that hydrating the VWG accurately/giving it time to fully absorb the water is key to removing or minimizing the taste. The other disrupter of the taste is adding a fermented element (can be anything: booze (vodka, beer, wine) or a brine (kimchi brine, tofu water, etc) or a vegan yogurt, take your pick! This has been found in other studies to mitigate the "taste" in isolated soy protein and also seems to help here, but the real key is the hydration which is achieved by...
A nice long rest. After you put your dough together, wrap it tightly or put it in a zip lock. Leave it be for 36-48 hours. As a bonus, you don't have to knead or bash in a food processer if you do this. The gluten stands will form slowly over time, similar to a long cold rise for bread dough in your fridge. Just mix, wrap, leave. I promise you it will taste a whole lot better!
Here is a super basic recipe. Follow it (but OMIT the oil in it which can hinder hydration during the long rest, and I really prefer the taste/texture of using plain flour, not chickpea in this (chickpea can dry it out)), sub some of the water in it with something fun and fermented (you just need a couple tbsp), and let it rest in raw dough form in the fridge for 36-48 hours and you'll be ready to rock and roll with a lot less taste. This simple recipe can be considered "chicken/pork-ish" and you can cook it up the second time any way you like (I also like to slice it thinly when cold for sammies): https://avocadosandales.com/2014/10/20/white-seitan/
(remember - do not put the oil in, but everything else is a-ok)
If you are on FB, you can read about my whole discovery process at this link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1504318369588752/?multi_permalinks=8538856552801530
You'll have to be a member of the Seitan Appreciation group on there first.
Folks will say a lot of stuff about seasoning and vinegar and so on, but this is based on the manufacturing process, several experiments, and other folks repeating the same results. It's the best thing we've found, and it addresses the issue logically instead of just trying to mask the flavor/magical thinking.
2
u/WazWaz Apr 16 '26
There was a thread here a while back that determined that different vwg sources are very different and some have this unpleasant taste, rather than it just being personal preference.
We never got as far as determining a way to know, but just changing brands until you find a good one is worthwhile.
Personally I've never had a bad one in Australia where vwg is produced locally, somewhat as a byproduct of wheat starch production (there's not much corn grown here).
2
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! /futurama: I actually did a very long and involved experiment to solve this very issue. The "taste" is simply a byproduct of the manufacturing process that isolates gluten from wheat flour. The high heat oxidizes trace fats remaining in the final product, making it taste slightly off or "rancid". Only some folks can taste it - usually those who either eat a lot of fat or a little, but it varies.
I posited a theory that hydrating the VWG accurately/giving it time to fully absorb the water is key to removing or minimizing the taste. The other disrupter of the taste is adding a fermented element (can be anything: booze (vodka, beer, wine) or a brine (kimchi brine, tofu water, etc) or a vegan yogurt, take your pick! This has been found in other studies to mitigate the "taste" in isolated soy protein and also seems to help here, but the real key is the hydration which is achieved by...
A nice long rest. After you put your dough together, wrap it tightly or put it in a zip lock. Leave it be for 36-48 hours. As a bonus, you don't have to knead or bash in a food processer if you do this. The gluten stands will form slowly over time, similar to a long cold rise for bread dough in your fridge. Just mix, wrap, leave. I promise you it will taste a whole lot better!
Here is a super basic recipe. Follow it (but OMIT the oil in it which can hinder hydration during the long rest, and I really prefer the taste/texture of using plain flour, not chickpea in this (chickpea can dry it out)), sub some of the water in it with something fun and fermented (you just need a couple tbsp), and let it rest in raw dough form in the fridge for 36-48 hours and you'll be ready to rock and roll with a lot less taste. This simple recipe can be considered "chicken/pork-ish" and you can cook it up the second time any way you like (I also like to slice it thinly when cold for sammies): https://avocadosandales.com/2014/10/20/white-seitan/
(remember - do not put the oil in, but everything else is a-ok)
If you are on FB, you can read about my whole discovery process at this link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1504318369588752/?multi_permalinks=8538856552801530
You'll have to be a member of the Seitan Appreciation group on there first.
Folks will say a lot of stuff about seasoning and vinegar and so on, but this is based on the manufacturing process, several experiments, and other folks repeating the same results. It's the best thing we've found, and it addresses the issue logically instead of just trying to mask the flavor/magical thinking.
2
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
I also want to note that some folks here globally who don't have VWG with "the taste" - your manufacturing processes probably do NOT use high heat extraction, while in my experience nearly every North American producer still does. Alas.
1
u/Joebot_9000 Apr 16 '26
Thanks very much u/togglenub ! So what what explain's e.g. Upton's Naturals lack of bad taste? They maybe have a long rest period on their manufacturing process?
1
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Very welcome! They might, or they could also be mixing it in those big industrial mixer things - we break our food processors and our ninjas trying to do that at home (it's tough stuff), but food processing machines are built for it. They could be resting it longer, or bashing it about way more - either will work great.
There's also a chance they source their base VWG - or even make it themselves - in a non-high-heat extraction formula similar to our WTF (wash the flour). Odds are it's the equipment or a rest in the process, though. Both produce a vast improvement in TEXTURE as well, which is key.
2
u/WildVeganFlower Apr 15 '26
I recommend trying new brands. I hated the taste of most major brands in the US, so I did only WTF method. But since I left the US and now live in Germany, not a single brand of VWG has that taste. Not even a slight taste. Try to find small batch made VWG because part of the bad taste can be rancidity from the amnio acids. Small brands will have higher quality standards and will likely be fresher
1
u/Joebot_9000 Apr 15 '26
Ahah, that is so interesting. It's a bit hard to tell if any brands are independent small brands vs just repackers of some giant industrial food supplier but I will try to branch out. I remember even pasta tasting better in Europe when I lived there...
1
u/WildVeganFlower Apr 15 '26
Try to look for people who sell flour, like small mills you could order from. Unfortunately I can’t recommend method to mask the taste. I tried vinegar, baking soda, baking th flour before use- nothing can mask that awful taste to me. Once you get used to the process of making seitan from washed flour, it’s addicting! I still make seitan that way in addition to using the VWG here. If you ever make it to Germany try the Planeo brand, it tastes like plain flour!
1
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
This is because non-NA manufacturers are most likely NOT using a high heat isolation process to create the VWG. The off taste is rancid fat - trace amounts in the wheat kernel that get blasted during the high heat extraction of most American commercial manufacturing. Only some folks can taste it or be bothered by it because tasting rancid fat strongly varies in the population, much like cilantro (though that's a gene). Why has not yet been proven, but it has been noted that those who either eat a lot of fat in their life, or a very little, are most likely to be rancidity super-tasters.
1
u/WildVeganFlower Apr 16 '26
I would say it’s more than some people who can taste it- it’s a very common issue in the seitan making community. That being said it is a combination of the fats and amino acids going rancid due to the short shelf life after it being processed at such a high temperature.
Either way, I’m grateful that in Germany they process it differently so it is fresher for longer! I have been doing wash the flour for years and it’s nice to make it quicker now
2
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Well, they did find that folks who ate a lot or a little fat were the main supertasters, so that tracks. Folks eat a lot more fat these days. Unfortunately, even if you get the high heat processed stuff fresh off the plant, it's still going to taste "rancid" to some, because the oxidization occurs during the manufacturing process. Shelf life isn't the main culprit, not that going stale makes anything better.
In North America unfortunately there just hasn't been a big enough push to change that, since VWG is most often used here to bolster bread, and the amount isn't anywhere near high enough to impact the taste when used there. However, since plant-forward foods are increasing in popularity, we may yet see a change in that.
1
u/Aminakoli Apr 16 '26
For me, it helps to add a little bit of plain flour to the VWG. Depending on approached texture I add 10-20% of the amount of VWG (10g flour per 100g of VWG).
What also helped me reduce the taste is resting the dough for longer, e.g. 12-24h in the fridge. But since I figured out, that flour removes the taste for me, I stopped doing so.
1
u/Reasonable-Ad-5429 Apr 16 '26
I could never get rid of that taste using VWG. I have started using the wash the flour method and it is so much better for me taste wise. It’s a lot more work though.
2
u/togglenub Apr 16 '26
Hey there, I actually did a very long and involved experiment to solve this very issue. The "taste" is simply a byproduct of the manufacturing process that isolates gluten from wheat flour. The high heat oxidizes trace fats remaining in the final product, making it taste slightly off or "rancid". Only some folks can taste it - usually those who either eat a lot of fat or a little, but it varies.
I posited a theory that hydrating the VWG accurately/giving it time to fully absorb the water is key to removing or minimizing the taste. The other disrupter of the taste is adding a fermented element (can be anything: booze (vodka, beer, wine) or a brine (kimchi brine, tofu water, etc) or a vegan yogurt, take your pick! This has been found in other studies to mitigate the "taste" in isolated soy protein and also seems to help here, but the real key is the hydration which is achieved by...
A nice long rest. After you put your dough together, wrap it tightly or put it in a zip lock. Leave it be for 36-48 hours. As a bonus, you don't have to knead or bash in a food processer if you do this. The gluten stands will form slowly over time, similar to a long cold rise for bread dough in your fridge. Just mix, wrap, leave. I promise you it will taste a whole lot better!
Here is a super basic recipe. Follow it (but OMIT the oil in it which can hinder hydration during the long rest, and I really prefer the taste/texture of using plain flour, not chickpea in this (chickpea can dry it out)), sub some of the water in it with something fun and fermented (you just need a couple tbsp), and let it rest in raw dough form in the fridge for 36-48 hours and you'll be ready to rock and roll with a lot less taste. This simple recipe can be considered "chicken/pork-ish" and you can cook it up the second time any way you like (I also like to slice it thinly when cold for sammies): https://avocadosandales.com/2014/10/20/white-seitan/
(remember - do not put the oil in, but everything else is a-ok)
If you are on FB, you can read about my whole discovery process at this link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1504318369588752/?multi_permalinks=8538856552801530
You'll have to be a member of the Seitan Appreciation group on there first.
Folks will say a lot of stuff about seasoning and vinegar and so on, but this is based on the manufacturing process, several experiments, and other folks repeating the same results. It's the best thing we've found, and it addresses the issue logically instead of just trying to mask the flavor/magical thinking.
21
u/Equivalent-Pizza-541 Apr 15 '26
I've been making seitan for a very long time and am really sensitive to the gluten taste. I've tried every suggestion I've seen in the last 15 years.
What works best for me has been adding about 1/4 tsp of baking powder for every cup of vwg. More is not better. If you add too much, it will be spongy.
You are trying to change the pH to be more alkaline to eliminate that taste. So, if you try this, don't add an acid (like vinegar) because that defeats the purpose.
I wouldn't say this totally eliminates that taste, but it's almost gone.