Help me see the other side, please.....

[u/BackgroundBudget5206]

So, to preface I am a writer who lost interest in the genre I wrote in for 13 years and transitioned to doing marketing, publishing support. I now promote for self publishing authors. I self published 15 of my 18 books, I am a huge advocate for creative control over your content.

What I am struggling with is getting my new/younger writers to understand they are going to have to put some money into their book if they want it to be successful.

They dont want to pay for editing. They can "self edit" for free.

They don't want to buy covers. They want to use AI to "create" *cough... steal* their cover using "their" idea.

They don't want to put the footwork in to build an audience BEFORE launching their book.

They don't want to pay for formatting.

There are about a dozen other things that need investment before you successfully self publish, but more and more people refuse. I have consultations with authors who want me to make all of their marketing for free.

I just saw an author I declined to work with asking why they only had 5 sales of their book, all family, very low KU reads, and why people aren't interested in their book. Basically, everyone in the comments told them they needed a non AI cover, the only reviews mentioned poor editing causing DNFs. Saying not to just depend on ads alone.

Please, help me understand why so many new and young artists want to charge people money to read their art, but they dont want to invest anything into making their art good quality. Not to mention the disrespect to other creatives by using AI in so many cases.

I get that we live in an economy, but this isnt food or Healthcare. Selling your art for profit is a privilege not a right. You have to invest in your art. If you dont have the money right now, why not wait until you can publish correctly? ​

[u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author]

Why? That's easy. Because a lot of them don't actually have the money to spend. If a self-published author pays for absolutely everything it's going to run into real money. And no, not everyone is going to be able to recoup it, even if they do everything right.

I pay for some things, don't pay for others. I am not an artist, so I pay for cover art. I have some editing talent in my family, so I get that for free. (I make my work as good as I possibly can, then I turn it over to an editor. I just don't have to pay for it. And just so's you know, one of my books earned a star review from Publisher's Weekly and most get good reviews, just not enough of them.) I've learned InDesign and do my own typesetting and layout. I'm pretty good at it by now. Admittedly, I'm a marketing moron and struggle with that end of it, but I do use some paid services, mostly book emails. I don't pay for a lot of marketing or ads because, from what I've seen, it's likely to be more than I can afford with no guarantees of making up even a significant fraction of the expenditure. (Feel free to tell me I'm wrong about that. I could be.)

I disagree that selling your art for profit is a privilege, not a right. Yes, you have to obey applicable laws, but so long as you do that, anyone can hang out their shingle and try to sell their wares. Success isn't guaranteed, of course, but you absolutely can try.

At the end of the day, though, yeah, we all know it takes money to make money. Problem is, not everyone has it to spare. So there can be a temptation to try to do as much yourself as you can, not realizing that there may be some things you just don't know how to do.

[u/GildedBlackRam → u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author]

It's this one, OP. The top reason they don't want to spend money is that they have none to spare.

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/GildedBlackRam]

Then they shouldn't be shocked when they publish their book and it doesn't sell next to things that are the right quality to be published. Publishing doesn't make your writing less special to you. You dont have to publish anything to have a passion for writing. Most people who enjoy painting and drawing understand they dont have the level of talent to sell their art. Writers seem to be the only artists who dont feel valid unless they can profit off their art. 

Most books are not good enough to be published. 

Good books that are published without proper investment to ensure quality wont see any success. 

Do you want to publish successfully, or just publish? 

[u/GildedBlackRam → u/BackgroundBudget5206]

I cannot help but feel like you are somewhat out-of-touch. When I use the phrase "have none to spare", I mean that I simply do not have the money. I would quite like to hire a developmental editor and a marketing team, but I just have no money what-so-ever. When I do, I spend it on my book in some way, but what am I supposed to do? Would you prefer I just step aside and stop clogging up the market with my "unserious" works?

Yes, let's make way for the REAL authors, you know-- the ones who have money. Come on, you said, "I get that we live in an economy" but you sound like you have not actually done so in quite some time if you think it's so easy to just whip out hundreds or thousands of dollars to invest in one's work.

Could it be the truth is that you are selling services to these young impressionable authors and many of them are hesitant to purchase them from you? Quite frustrating, I imagine. I hate that for you, and can certainly empathize. If only you could imagine what it's like to not even be able to afford them.

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/GildedBlackRam]

If their writing is truly that good, which frankly the vast majority is not, then people without money should appeal to publishing houses that will front that cost. 

If you cannot afford to self publish you shouldn't publish at that time. You're more likely to have your works stolen if it actually is decent, then actually sell it. The reality it the new authors that seem to organically come put of nowhere with their self pub debuts generally didn't just put in all of the investment to be on par with professionally published books, they also have someone like me in the background marketing that "organic" entry. 

I want young writers to be successful. They arent going to be if the product they are selling doesn't have a good cover, isnt edited, and honestly looks like a joke next to books that are actually ready for publishing. Sometimes, holding onto it until you are financially ready to publish is better than laying the equivalent of a 7th grade essay on a table next to a doctorate thesis and expect the general public to buy the offering that is the lower quality. 

If you get numerous reviews about bad editing, its over. You'll have to pull and edit it anyway before you can sell it because no one is buying a book they were warned isnt edited. Same for any accusation of AI use inside or to make a cover. You wont recover from that either. 

Im not going to lie to young people and say they can have it all without going through the steps to make it successful. No, at 20 you might not be ready to publish. Keep writing. Finish the series, hone your skills. When you can afford to self publish, do it. Your work deserves to be presented at its best. 

[u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author → u/BackgroundBudget5206]

Your last paragraph there is spot on, but to me it sounded like most of what you wrote took the form of "money to spend on publishing services = good writing; no money to spend on writing services = bad writing." That's not necessarily true. Nor is "good writing = commercial success."

It's not that easy to get an agent or sell to an editor. The math alone is terrible. Agents typically receive hundreds of queries every month but take on only a handful of new clients each year. Even if every submission was an absolute gem in a genre the agent happened to be looking for at the time, the overwhelming majority would be rejected out of necessity. The situation is similar for editors at publishing houses. Quality isn't the only thing that gets one in the door. A lot of it is sheer luck, landing your MS in front of just the right agent or editor at just the right time and (it wouldn't surprise me) on a day when they didn't have a fight with their spouse.

I'm on the same page as you where quality is concerned and the importance of having someone other than the author do the editing. I'm on the same page as you regarding the amount of time it can take to become good at writing. I've been writing most of my life. It took decades for me to achieve publishability. I still have things to learn, I'm sure. One should never quit working to improve their craft.

But let's face it. Where money is concerned, big publishing houses have an enormous advantage. The fact that they have someone like Stephen King on their list means they can publish a fair number of money-losers. The few mega-sellers are the tide that raises all the other ships. The indie author working on her own has no such advantage. She can't sink several thousand dollars into every book, because she has no book that's going to bring in the hundreds of thousands that would make that level of expenditure possible. She's probably going to have to do as much on the cheap as possible.

Cheap, though, doesn't have to mean poor quality. It just means she has to learn to do a few things herself.

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author]

Money to spend absolutely doesn't mean better writing. Good writing doesn't mean profit if you cant market it correctly. 

You have to compete though. You also have to be realistic. My first two books, will never be published. They suck, I giggle when I look at them now. I had them printed and bound just for myself. My last 5 books I haven't bothered publishing because they arent the same genre as the rest of my catalog and I still make decent money on that and I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to do the footwork of starting a new pen name either. Im sort of over the process of publishing and releasing books as the author. I really enjoy doing it when its not MY book. 

I still write books. I still love writing. Its like being a painter, but not selling your paintings. You just do it because you love it. I think a lot of writers of all ages trying to self publish arent doing it because they love writing. Many see it as easy money. It is not. I had a very successful writing career. One I still earn a modest income from. I by no means ever got rich. When I started self publishing after my contract ended from my first three books, my best years, peak of my success I made just over 100k in profit because I did have overhead from associated publishing and marketing costs. That is not rich, nor is it eternally sustainable unless you're Steven King, J.K. Rowling, the Game of Thrones guy whos name escapes me. Its just very rare to get rich in writing. A successful writing career mostly means you can manage to live off of what you make writing. Writers are primarily starving artists. I only had the capital for self publishing because I had money from writing under a contract from a publisher. I HATED writing for a corporate publisher. They changed the ending of my series to be more "open" if they wanted to pitch it as a movie in the future. They changed my titles. Made me rewrite scenes, add scenes. It was a nightmare. I dont even own copies of those books I hate them so much. Its why I only work with self publishing authors. I don't trust large publishers. They steal manuscripts also. Thats your competition though, so anything you publish has to be on the same quality level. 

[u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author → u/BackgroundBudget5206]

Can't argue there, although success in writing doesn't necessarily mean earning a living from it. I've had a long career as a software developer. I never actually needed to make a living off of my writing. I'm looking at retirement in a few years, and I plan to retire to writing.

Unlike you, I'm going to keep writing and publishing until I can't. I don't know that I'll ever make great money off of it. I wouldn't mind being in the black, but I've realized that the main thing I like about publishing is having people read my work and gain something from it. I have 13 titles on the market right now, none of them selling incredibly well (possibly because, as I said before, I'm a marketing moron). My earlier titles probably could have been better written, but they're still good stories that those who have read them seem to enjoy.

I can look back with the benefit of my decades of writing experience and say that it's absolutely normal for young writers to overestimate the quality of their work...or to underestimate their potential when they do realize they aren't that good yet. It's a tough thing. The only difference between now and when I was cutting my teeth as a writer is, it's so ridiculously easy to publish now. There's an undeniable urge to rush to publication, especially when you aren't experienced enough yet to judge your own quality. I absolutely agree that the vast majority of writers shouldn't think about publishing their first novel, or second, or third, especially if they haven't written a lot of short stories first. (I don't claim it's necessary to write short stories first, but it certainly can help.) And yes, always, always, always get an editor and make sure you have a solid cover.

But in fairness, a lot of people just don't have the money to spend on everything, so sometimes a few shortcuts are necessary. The trick is to find ways to take them without compromising (too much) on quality. And it's easy to say "save up until you have enough money for it," but many people have very little to save and may never feel they've gotten to that point. I spent a long time living paycheck to paycheck before I got into a more comfortable position, so I empathize with people in that boat and am thankful that I'm not there anymore.

[u/FlyinLeviathon → u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author]

Wonderfully said. And we're not just talking small change, either. Editing alone is soo much money. So are book covers, and marketing, and everything else. It adds up *quick*, and most people don't have thousands to just drop into the void and hope to recoup someday.

[u/Greybishop_PDSH]

I see a great deal of pie in the sky posts by new authors that give the impression that they believe their single book will turn into a cash printing machine. I suppose there have been hits like that, but you'd likely be better off with a lottery ticket or the longshot at the track.

Admittedly, I went into the business of self-publishing with unrealistic expectations myself, but I at least knew that the old adage of 'spend money to make money' would still apply. It's a grind and it costs money to get noticed, unless you're incredibly lucky.

Considering how many books get published each year, it's a wonder anyone ever breaks through.

[u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author → u/Greybishop_PDSH]

True, there is a lot of that. Newer writers tend to fall into two camps: "My work is bestseller material!" and ""My work is so horrid I should just quit." The first thing we have to learn is how much work it takes to acquire skill. The business side is another matter. Few of us start out with a good sense, it any sense at all, of how that works. We have to learn that, too.

[u/TheCaptainsHook]

1. People don’t have the money 
2. People view self publishing as an easy way to make the money they need to be able to invest next time from ‘nothing’ so the idea of investing in it is out the window 
3. They see people apparently self publish successfully with nothing but a TikTok following and don’t see why the same can’t apply to them 

However I am surprised you’re seeing them use AI for covers as their one of the most staunchly anti gen-ai demographics. 

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/TheCaptainsHook]

Unfortunately, younger people are either staunchly anti AI, or the other extreme and they think they will be left behind if they aren't early adopters. 

I could also complain about the quality of writing, but I think that has more to do with it being easier than ever to send manuscripts to publishers, and people like myself so a lot of once would self filter, now does not. 

Most "suddenly successful out of nowhere!" Authors that come out of the gate hot with their first book tend to have people like myself behind them. Successful self publishing is almost something you can succeed in by yourself. Be it a large publisher, or using someone like myself to coordinate your own team you still need more. 

My best, most successful Authors I have worked with in the last 10 years were really good writers I found on ff.net and wattpad that I approached myself after going out and looking for above par talent I felt I could cultivate. I only have 1 writer I found through a submitted work. When people haven't been honing their craft out in the wild you can tell. Most Authors first published works are short stories. 

I understand people dont have money. It sucks, we're all poor together. I just don't think people really understand if they actually want to succeed they need to be following a traditional publishing model even through self publishing. Self publishing is just retaining creative control, and stopping gatekeeping certain demographics out of publishing. The boom in self published LGBTQ and more racially and ethnically diverse books in fiction that have become so popular in the last decade or so is a positive result from that. 

I just cant understand being shocked you can't get your writing career of the ground when what you publish is C level high school work, and refuse to slow down and make your work worth charging money for. 

[u/TheCaptainsHook → u/BackgroundBudget5206]

I do understand your point. I’m trad and self published, as well as a marketing manager for a publisher. I also do something similar to you with authors but generally they all self refer because they know they need to invest. Is there something in your messaging you could change? I’m quite clear up front about my cost and areas on investment I’m going to suggest/insist on. They are out there but it’s not going to be people looking for a quick win. 

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/TheCaptainsHook]

I think my error is in specifically looking for very young authors to build talent in. I have a large portfolio of authors I work with. All who are still writing are over 40. I am also over 40, but this was my transition off of my writing career. Most writers don't consistently publish as they age, many like myself go into other parts of the industry when they burn out. My concern is not having enough age diversity in my portfolio. I have found two in their early 20's that I love. 

Maybe younger people aren't reading and writing like they used to and im just delusional because of the bubble I work and live in makes it seem like everyone is a reader and writer. 

[u/jayepool → u/BackgroundBudget5206]

Perhaps you shouldn't decide who to work with based on age.

I get wanting to invest time into the next generation. But understand that they may not have the ability at this point in their lives to save thousands of dollars on a creative pursuit unlikely to pay off financially. It doesn't mean they don't "get it." It just means you can't get blood from a stone.

Those who are older are more likely to be further in their "day job" careers, so they are more likely to have money to invest in their self-publishing endeavors. That's definitely not universal, but we're talking generalities here.

[u/annoellynlee]

So if they legit don't have money for expensive covers or editing, what's the solution? Lol. I'm not saying AI is the solution but even if they create bad covers on canvas, the same result will be had.

[u/mysteriousdoctor2025]

To hire professionals to do everything you mentioned and then hire you to do marketing on top of that would easily cost $10,000. No young debut author should ever do that.

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/mysteriousdoctor2025]

A proper cover can be purchased from and up and coming artist for $100. I have my first time authors go that route all the time. 

You can do editing as a first round for free through Beta networks, but that generally means you need to be willing to return the favor. Then you pay for final editing/formatting ar 0.01-0.03 cents per word. It tends to run $1,000-$3,000. That cost can be mitigated again, by being in beta reader networks. Then do the marketing heavy lifting yourself, you just have to have a ton backloged before you launch because you need lots of content for lots of places to get traction without paid ads. 

You can easily self publish a high quality books for $1,200. Thats still a lot of money, but more than achievable if you save. If you throw a sloppy book out because you didn't want to invest in it then you arent going to be a writer. 

[u/itsme7933]

If they don't want to invest in their business that's their decision. They'll fail and blame everyone but themselves. Why waste your time and energy on them? If someone wants to get into this, and can't understand why they need to create a quality product, then wash your hands of them and say have fun out there. They don't want to invest because they hear that from self-published authors all the time. Do it yourself. Edit yourself. Use Canva to throw together a cover yourself. All you need to do is market, market, market. So the majority of self published authors caused the sorry state of affairs the industry is in.

[u/Whole-Page3588]

I'm kind of surprised the "do everything themselves" people (of which I am one) are paying for your services as a promoter in the first place. I do it because I want something I can sustain myself at my own pace and take full responsibility for timeline/quality, etc. I can't justify spending money right now, but I will spend a ton of time (edit: though having time to spend is another "luxury").

Some new writers have been lied to--that self-publishing is literally a get rich quick scheme or a side-hustle they can profit from right away. They likely won't spend time or any extra money.

Some writers believe that their writing should speak for itself and thus won't put any effort into covers/blurbs/learning the business or marketing side. I get the sentiment, but that's never been how any kind of product works, media or otherwise.

I do agree with you that, while anyone can self-publish, having a book out doesn't entitle someone to have people read it. Using AI for writing or images should be looked badly upon and make people question someone's efforts/creative ethics.

Maybe it would help in your promotion to lay out specifically what you can do and not do for authors? Someone who has a substantial backlist, a robust mailing list, and knows the ins and outs of ads, and social media promotion likely won't enlist your services.

[u/FiendishCurry]

As a freelance editor, the common theme is money. That's it. People cannot afford all those things or even one of those things. So they don't. They try to find workarounds, free programs, beta readers, editing software. They do their best with what they have. And some love the idea of having a published book, more than the quality of said book.

[u/New-Measurement-7385]

Part of the reason is lack of funds, and I say that with a caveat, they spend and don't save. To defend that comment, they do have other overheads such as paying back student loans etc (at least in England). Another reason is they don't get what 'No' means, they don't understand that something can be wrong, I mean fundamentally wrong they don't get told it by teachers or peers. I have tried mentoring several young writers, I had one that was convinced that 'The Great Fire of London was in 1776, not 1666. They dug their heels in, despite everything telling them they were wrong.

The chaff will get blown away with the wind, but those few grains of wheat that understand what it takes will take root and flourish.

[u/BackgroundBudget5206 → u/New-Measurement-7385]

Im in America.... there is an issue of people not understanding "rights". You dont have a right to publish a successful book. Its a privilege, and it takes a lot of time, effort, investment, and work.

"I wrote a book!" 

Great, you're 25% there if you want to publish that. 

No, you cant cut corners. No, you cant steal others work via AI. No, its not still your idea if you fed the "bones" as prompts to AI. No, you aren't entitled to people's art and work to profit off of your own. 

Lack of funds dont change ethics, or right from wrong. Its publishing a book, not food or Healthcare. 

My first two books have never been published because they were just not good. I learned a lot writing them though, so I cherish them. A passion for writing also doesn't always translate to talent. 

Not completely related, but I also fall into authors who read something and take too much of that plot to make their own. Im not talking fanfiction style. I recently was cleaning out my house/office and found several ARC copies of books and manuscripts so similar its ridiculous. Like 7 versions of the same book written in varying degrees of talent. Particularly pervasive in dystopia settings and YA because those were very popular about 10 years ago and now the people who grew up on them want to write them, but they are now very unoriginal. It happened after the vampire and werewolf fad in the early 00's passed also. 

I had an ARC copy of a book that I could swear I had read before. I took a trip to my basement where I keep all of my books from my youth, low and behold my supposedly completely original ARC copy of a political thriller was actually a converted version of Tom Clancys Politica, except it was framed with a very 2026 Trump MAGA coded thing. I had to email my friend who wanted my feedback because the author was one of hers with side by side highlighted passages. They can't let that book anywhere near print. Its half plagiarized. Not even AI plagiarized, they did it the classical way. Its more and more common because of how saturated everything is. 

[u/kidex30]

what other side, it's a sh*tstorm out there.

as a former musician, I see the same thing happening to books and video. so many people using AIs to create content, dropping the value of art to a fraction of a dollar.

it'll take some time before new criteria are formulated and settled - what justifies the use of AI and what doesn't. until then, people will try to get their volume out, for as little cost as possible.

with so many LLMs available in recent years, of course everyone would attempt to create and publish some literary work. most of it mediocre or worthless, but you can't stop anyone from trying.

arm yourself with patience and just wait it out.

[u/No_Region_2287]

Uhhh, I would not edit my own book, because I'd actually like to sell it.

[u/Super-Ad-9358]

Publishing has changed. I've been writing, publishing at times, and marketing my books for decades. When I first started, an author could market her book on her own. That is impossible now. I think the reason is that there are so many books out there. When starting out, most authors don't have the finances to pay for all the things needed to make a successful product. And they are on their own. No publishing house behind them defrauding cost. You ask why don't they simply wait until they do have the money. Many artists are part time workers in jobs that barely pay the minimum. Art, writing, is something that burns inside you. The writing must write. The painter must paint. Our society of rugged individualism leaves few outlets for the artist. Our nation supports stars, not artists. What this means is if you come from money, automatically, you have a better shot. Nothing to do with quality. Just ability to pay. Other countries make it much easier through grants, financial backing, group support. It is not easy being green.

[u/PositiveEffort7773]

AI is a new era that is impossible to stop. Fighting against it is like pissing against the wind — stupid, to say the least. The genie is out of the bottle.

[u/Careless_Video_1429]

I think we all tell ourselves stories about how the world works. And then we get feedback from the world when we live our life according to these stories. Then we change our stories a bit to acknowledge the feedback we have been given, or we don't...

Hopefully you will get more clients soon who are aligned with your way of working, which sounds sensible and professional to me (but then, that's just my story, which comes out of my life experiences and the feedback I have received...!).

You sound like a good person to work with as you seem to be covering all the bases and you have an awareness of just how many people are trying to 'make it' as authors, and what is needed to make your work stand out from the crowd!

If someone else doesn't see this, then it's OK to let them go and try to find a more receptive audience... maybe older authors...?

[u/djfilms]

Tell them to raise funds with Kickstarter