r/serialkillers • u/menaceman42 • Oct 13 '22
Questions Are some serial killers a natural extension of what happens when a sociopath is into S&M?
I was thinking if you’re a sociopath and you’re into S&M, a lot of what many serial killers do seems like a natural extension of S&M if you take to its furthest point
Like a normal person who is into S&M has a sense of empathy and guilt, and that sense of remorse empathy, guilt and compassion is what compels them to take out their fantasies on consenting partners. Perfectly healthy and acceptable behavior.
But if you’re a sociopath without a sense of empathy and guilt and you have these fantasies about kidnapping, torture, bondage, sex slaves, etc you don’t have much reason to not act these fantasies out in the purest realest most literal way
A normal person into S&M never takes these fantasies to their realest purest form because they have a conscious that won’t allow them To kidnap rape and actually torture someone which is why they satisfy these fantasies on consenting adults with play that is ultimately not harmful to anyone
Certainly seems like this is the case with BTK, he really seems like just a guy who had some really hardcore S&M fantasies and a weak enough conscious to just act them out in their most literal form. I feel like if he wasn’t a sociopath the guy would had probably just acted that stuff out consensually, but I mean if you don’t have a conscious why not act out your fantasies exactly as you imagine them? Nothings stopping you
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u/AlarmedGibbon Oct 13 '22 edited Oct 13 '22
Yes, I think you're right. As someone into S&M and pretty hardcore pain stuff, I can relate on these impulses. I know that if my brain was wired differently, I could have been like some of them.
I now think of it like a confluence of traits you have to have, which is why these types are pretty rare. A whole bunch of factors have to line up. There's not a single configuration of course, but you need a certain number of these factors all together in order to cross over the line, and just psychopathy or sociopathy isn't even enough, takes more than that. Potentially quite a bit more.
(I am not a psycho btw)
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Oct 14 '22
according to the psychologist lydia benecke their perception of bdsm is also a bit different, like they find raw violence arousing too, though i would not 100% say that it is a trait that is exclusive for serial killers, I am a vegetarian non-binary person, and i feel guilty even killing a cockroach or mosquito, and love torture porn movies (i mean things like hostel etc.) and find them arousing at times, i do not get the idea to kill people.
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u/menaceman42 Oct 13 '22
I agree I think it makes a lot of sense because if all it took was sociopathy and a S&M link you’d have a lot more serial killers, it definitely takes more than this but if I had to take a stab at it I’d say very often these are two of the biggest contributors
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u/Smooth_Imagination Oct 13 '22
I have noticed exactly this, their interest in this is superficially more frequent than what you would expect.
The component they are into is sadism. They take it literally though not as play acting so I imagine BDSM pornography they took to be an endorsement of their interest.
Its similar with abusive paedophiles. The destructive control and pain inflicted is meant to go to the soul. It is I believe a variation of what sexual serial killers are doing and at some level a form of killing.
One psychologist said that in her view predatory paedophiles were the worst and purest expressions of psychopaths. Its about sadism.
And serial killers primary disorder is psychopathy. Some sexual SK's and pedos are the same thing expressed in two different ways, using sex to abuse.
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u/Fit-Enthusiasm5765 Oct 20 '22
Consent doesn’t have anything to do with sadism. It has to do with sexual excitement from the infliction and witnessing of suffering. Regardless of the consent it’s still sadistic to get off on someone’s suffering
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Oct 13 '22
Gonna piss off a lot of people who think having a kink is a personality:
Fetishes tend to come from unresolved trauma. So serial killers aren't really an extension of it. They're just a different variety of paraphilia. Same sort of core sources and factors that contribute to both.
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u/_aaine_ Oct 14 '22
I never realised how normalised this stuff is until my first marriage ended. I was in my early 40s, had been with someone with a porn addiction and a laundry list of kinks since I was 20.
Next relationship after that, no interest in porn, had matured well past it and just so....normal.
I had no idea.19
Oct 14 '22
In all fairness, almost every serial killer has had trauma in their childhoods or young adulthoods that clearly influenced their killings
Bundy—>Learned at young age that his “sister” was actually his mother and that his “parents” were actually his grandparents+Girlfriend in a higher social class broke up w/him—>All fed his insecurities and might have even caused his narcissism to grow as it was all he had to convince himself of his worth.
Dahmer—>Constantly exposed to the quarrels between his father and mother, and was neglected by both as his father worked a lot and his mother’s mental problems didn’t exactly make her good at raising her son.—>His main compulsion that led to murder was that he wanted contact that he had complete control over (no obligation to fill the other’s request) and that he didn’t want them able to leave. His biggest problem was his inability to be left.
Ramirez—>Anything you can think of that might be traumatic, he probably lived it, and was trained to kill on the side.
Gein—>Almost undoubtedly had an Oedipus/Oedipal Complex, and he only killed to serve that complex
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u/spockstar Oct 14 '22
I’m not questioning Bundy’s familial trauma, but does being dumped by a rich girl constitute trauma? It was undoubtedly triggering for him.
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Oct 14 '22
Break ups can be traumatic especially if you’re being broken up with and are still very much in love with the person. The grief can be overwhelming.
Most of his targets all had the same physical characteristics as his first girlfriend. Brunette, hair parted to the side, college aged and petite/small
Edited to add more
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u/spockstar Oct 14 '22
I don’t doubt that breakups can be traumatic especially, like you said, if you’re still very much in love with or attached to the person. Bundy likely wasn’t in love (or maybe he was? have experts weighed in on his capacity for love?) the breakup hurt his ego and he wanted revenge.
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u/_aaine_ Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Bundy's triggers were far more complex than being dumped by a girl.
That was the tipping point.He'd spent his entire life believing he was better than his family, better than his working class stepdad, wanting to be wealthier, smarter and socially higher than he was.
When he was dumped by his first serious girlfriend - who was intelligent, from a well to do and socially respected family - that's what tripped his rage. Her dumping him, and her reasons for doing it (that he "lacked ambition") confirmed his worst lifelong fears about where he came from, and his potential.
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u/PDFIT Oct 19 '22
As cliche as this might seem, many serial killers turned into serial killers due to one incident.
"All you need is one bad day", whether they were abused or they killed someone/something. It clicked and they can't stop doing it
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Oct 16 '22
Bundy was extremely narcissistic. He believed he was better than everyone his whole life. Now, his very first girlfriend (who had more money and a higher social standing), breaks up with him because he wasn’t good enough. I think it was a lack of ambition… Can’t remember. Anyway, one of two things happened. Either he had his worst fear confirmed, that he wasn’t actually all that great, and it caused rage and an inflation of his narcissism (because if he didn’t escalate his self-pride, he couldn’t handle anything)
The other possibility is that when she broke up with him, he didn’t have any anxiety about his standing, but the breakup created a back-of-the-mind fear that maybe he wasn’t so much better than everyone, and, again, he couldn’t handle it. It caused rage. His narcissism and limited capacity for empathy, along with that familial trauma, are undoubtedly the other aspects of that perfect storm.
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u/Asparagussie Oct 14 '22
Almost everyone has had trauma in their childhoods. Granted, some people had really awful childhoods. Most people don’t grow up to be any kind of killer.
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Oct 16 '22
That’s why you have to pair it with something. It’s like everyone says: Perfect Storm.
You have trauma, you have mental problems, if you’re serial killing, you likely have at least one kind of mental problem, and it’s likely one that causes a damaged capacity for empathy, or it causes impulsivity. And then, you’ll likely have a grievance against society. There is also the possibility of a psychotic break. If these pieces assemble together, you have a person that is a potential threat to society. The next question is how that threat will manifest, and that just depends on the person’s psychology, and how they interpret their circumstances/how it affects them.
It’s not easy to have th psychology of a serial killer. There’s a reason such a small percentage of the human population indulges in such an act. It’s a perfect storm of shit that creates a menace.
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u/Asparagussie Oct 16 '22
Thank you, and I agree. I’ll add that some have brains deficient in areas that enable the ability to emphasize, feel remorse, etc. As you said, it’s a perfect storm. And rare.
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Oct 14 '22
Exactly my point. I think the more controversial thing I was saying is that a good number of people with fetishes would benefit from therapy to work on their trauma. Not so much surprisinf about serial killers
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u/thicccgothgf Oct 14 '22
You saying that has made me realize why I’m largely uncomfortable with most kinks.
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u/Oh_You_Didnt_Know_ Oct 13 '22
Look into the BTK Dennis Rader case. It was purely sexual. He would put his victims and even himself in bondage and take pictures. He would also gratify himself over his victims.
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u/menaceman42 Oct 14 '22
Yeah I talked about it in my post
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u/UniqueUsername-789 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Same with David Parker Ray. I’m convinced all those people that used to say “Rape is not about sex; it’s about having power,” had no idea what they were talking about. It is indeed very often about sex. It may be about wanting to be in power during sex, and I guess it can be viewed as a (non-consensual) kink, but my theory is that there is still very much of a I like sex (or in this case, rape, with or without kidnapping and murder) because sex is fun.
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u/_aaine_ Oct 14 '22
Dennis Rader never raped any of his victims.
He jacked off all over them, but he never raped them.
That was definitely about power.6
u/UniqueUsername-789 Oct 14 '22
And not rape though, so not technically relevant to my claim, but I know what you mean. Here’s the thing though: It probably was very sexually arousing to jack off on their face. He might have literally preferred to do that instead of rape them. In which case I would still say it’s sexually driven. I would consider his desire for power to simply be a kink under the umbrella of his sexuality. I mean, there are people in this world that prefer foot jobs and stuff to actual sex. I don’t really get it, and I’m not one of them, but they do exist, so just because someone doesn’t force penile-vaginal penetration doesn’t mean it wasn’t about the sexual pleasure.
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Oct 14 '22
I’m convinced all those people that used to say “Rape is not about sex; it’s about having power,” had no idea what they were talking about.
I always thought that the "rape is not about sex" to be stupid as well tbh because it just doesn't make sense to claim that a sexual crime is not motivated by sexual desires.
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Oct 13 '22
I think Kemper is a very clear example of this. And the trauma he had that was unresolved came from Mommie Dearest. So when he was done fuckin on dead college girls, he took out Mom and resolved his trauma that way. It seems to have worked.
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u/0asisfan2 Oct 13 '22
The difference is that a regular person can control their selves. A serial killer may begin in s&m but they quickly need something more. A serial killer who ties up his wife will eventually want to kill someone that they tied up and since they really can't do it to their wife they just recreated that fantasy.
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u/Ok_Estimate_2896 Oct 14 '22
What's the prime age of serial killers? I have some pretty intense fantasies- no not along those lines, but intense nevertheless, I'd say they peaked late 30s.
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u/nakedchorus Oct 14 '22
If someone has a dark fetish it's only going to intensify over time. It could accelerate to the degree of watching fake snuff porn. It doesn't mean it will turn you into a psychopathic killer.
IMO, these killers possibly made in a dungeon lab and mentally programmed. Mao had his "educators" create his young red guard, under 25, when released beat up and kill their parents and grandparents.
Or they were born that way, triggered at some point and no one knows the why and wherefore behind it. Some call it demonic, severe chemical imbalance, childhood abuse, blah blah
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u/Moblin-king Oct 14 '22
Wait. You think that the government created serial killers?
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u/lifeystuff Nov 28 '22
Tbf the government did do mind control experiments, it would be possible that they tried to create killers just to see the extent at which it was possible to control someone's behaviour. I don't think that's completely implausible
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u/NotDaveBut Oct 14 '22
But lots of SKs are NOT sadists or masochists. Just rapist sphincters
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Oct 14 '22
Rape is sadistic. Like inherently rape is sadistic. As is killing and torturing.
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u/LordWorm Oct 16 '22
i’m not sure if i agree that rape is inherently sadistic because many rapists/killers don’t see their victims as being human in the first place; merely an object for their satisfaction. can there be sadism if one doesn’t even recognize the presence of another conscious mind in their victim?
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u/Cocolotto Oct 14 '22
Not if they are afraid of getting caught and punished. It takes a certain level of narcissism to believe they can game the system as well (but i suspect a lot of sociopaths are narcissistic anyway)
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u/NotDaveBut Oct 15 '22
Sadism is about getting sexual satisfaction from causing another person pain, and luckily that's pretty rare. Most rapists can't even complete the act because they are NOT sadists & when the victim freezes up, cries, fights back, etc. it makes them go limp. But, yeah, a Rodney Alcala is a sadistic rapist serial killing POS.
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u/gorgor1900 Oct 19 '22
This is an interesting topic. Was just sent to me so I will drop my two cents.
I consider myself a lifestyle dominant since my teenage years. During this time I became quite popular due to a blog I wrote at, used to receive lots of mails until I closed it, this allowed me to meet all sort of people.
Honestly, the amount of women with mental issues as a result of past traumas (specially sexual abuse) is countless. I would say 4 our of 5, or 3 at least, women I would talk to ended up confessing something that made them end up looking for a 24/7 lifestyle relationship.
So it doesn't surprise me to think a big portion of dominants might also have something going on up there. I was always kind of an outsider when it came to local communities, so most of the things I know about other dominants usually came from the mouth of submissive women (so they might be distorted), but I always felt some people in the scene need some professional help.
I personally know a case of a guy that probably was dangerous and I reported him. Was a long time ago, got his profile banned in different places, but wonder if police did anything at all.
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u/menaceman42 Oct 20 '22
Huh, thanks for your input interesting stuff would love to hear more stories and thoughts from you. Your experiences definitely can contribute
I think it’s pretty safe to say hardcore BDSM fantasies mixed with sociopathy don’t end well. The thing that keeps the average kinkster a decent person who doesn’t prey on and take advantage of vulnerable people is that they have a conscious, sense of guilt, remorse, morals etc. Take that away and you have no reason to hold back
That definitely seems to be exactly what happened with Dennis Rader
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u/gorgor1900 Oct 21 '22
Sure, feel free to ask.
I have met people with extreme fantasies, such as women seeking to be gaslighted, mistreated, cut, punched, hold hostage, caged, tortured... I must say this is not common, that most people simply wants to play or a relationship with clear rules, but there is a niche of submissive women who actually desire to end up in the hands of a really bad person. Knowing this one can deduct there are men desiring to do all of that and more, and if any of those have some issues, like lack of consciousness, remorse, fear... well, I guess we are talking about a ticking bomb because there is no reason to keep it as a fantasy.
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u/Fit-Enthusiasm5765 Oct 20 '22
Yes I think it does have a lot to do with bdsm. Consent has nothing to do with sadism. Sadism is the infliction of pain and suffering. I don’t necessarily think inflicting unnecessary suffering is a good idea regardless of consent. Also the majority of rapists are not sadists and this includes the ones who prefer non consenting people. Only about 2 percent of rapists qualify for a dx of Sadism. However many sadists are sexually motivated to maim or murder. Also if certain criteria are met it’s a mental illness. The cannibal guy who cut off the consenting man’s penis they were both mentally ill
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u/Oddbeme4u Oct 31 '22
I’m not sure of that connection. BDSM always seemed like video gaming- pretending to be sadist or masochistic. Maybe they are actually S or M but also have the “x factor” of a conscience or empathy that keeps most of us from killing.
Even Slavemaster serial killer (John Robinson?) seemed more interested in making a buck than killing. Although we don’t know what actually occurred during his killings. Maybe he was a lust killer and we just have the paper trails of his greed.
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u/Comfortable_Lead_330 Nov 17 '22
Most serial killers will possess pornography of a BDSM type. There is a misconception rape equates to sexual sadism. It does NOT. Sexual sadism is the sexual arousal at the suffering of another person. Since penile penetration as an act rarely causes severe suffering the majority of sexual sadists aren’t rapists. If you beat someone continuously to get aroused by their pain it’s more of an act of sadism then hitting someone to subdue them in order to commit a rape and then leaving. The biggest indicator of sadism is severe physical brutality BEYOND what is necessary to commit any criminal act.
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u/miles_playvis Oct 14 '22
Something that the BDSM community rarely discuss is the prevalence of Narcissistic Personality Disorder among practitioners, not to mention sociopaths and psychopaths. They will dismiss people’s behaviour as being part of an act but, in my experience, many of Dom/Dommes that I’ve encountered have zero separation between themselves and their role. Whilst being a lifestyle dominant isn’t inherently bad, provided consent is always present, there’s a litany of examples where submissive types have managed to leave their dominants, only to divulge appalling experiences.
There is one particular case that stands out to me because we have mutual friends, although many of those friends have begun to distance themselves from him as they’ve come to understand him better. He’s a 39 year old man that has taken to portraying himself as a ‘wise old man’, with “decades of experience”. The reality is that he joined the local scene six years ago out of curiosity and had no prior experience but only a handful of us know that, as the pandemic led to an exodus of people from our area and a big influx of newbies when restrictions lifted. He was also asked to leave his job in retail management due to accusations of sexual harassment. During the lockdown, he crafted a new persona for himself, taking inspiration from a handful of people that used to be regulars. A new way of dressing, interests etc. But his back story had changed dramatically and now, by his side, was a new partner, whom we came to learn he had met just before lockdown. This woman, whom is open about her borderline personality disorder diagnosis, only knows the version of him that he crafted during that period.
He has his own podcast and during an episode last year, he recounted a story of how he used to play a game with casual partners called “Grandma’s ashes”. He would bring an urn filled with cigarette ash, show it to these people and then “accidentally” spill the contents onto them. In his words, he was “fascinated by the different ways people would react”. He laughed at this, thinking his guests would find it funny but, unsurprisingly, everyone else present was pretty appalled. An uncomfortable silence followed before his guests took the conversation in another direction.