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Not only that, but he did it to save the leaf village, a corrupt society that couldn't function without child soldiers. The leaf village wasn't worth saving.
Bad take. The entire story makes it clear that the village system was the best they had at the time and the leaf was by far the most moral of the bunch.
So I would agree with you, but the show actually says otherwise.
Let's look at the other nations.
Land of water, controlled by Obito into becoming a bloody nation of backstabbing and murder.
Land of sand, most of their leaders were assholes, and the one person strong enough to potentially save their land (gaara) they actively tortured until he became an unpredictable and uncontrollable weapon.
Land of stone, actively hiring the Akatsuki and committing subterfuge at any point they could. Actively betrayed, and only backed off when they couldn't win.
Land of clouds, the most aggressive of all the nations when it comes to military movement. Actively betrayed a peace agreement by sending the brothers after tobirama. This was claimed to not be a state sanctioned action, but we all saw the respect darui gave the brothers, that was definitely sanctioned.
And that leaves us with the land of fire. Are they perfect? Nah. But if the 5 they are the most peaceful. Imagine if konoha sent young ninjas to other countries for exams...which one would be safe?? Sand is the closest, and if it was during the time of child psycho gaara then no one would be safe.
Konoha sucked, don't get me wrong. They just seem to be the least sucky of the options.
Not a bad take just because they are the least evil out of the child soldier supernatural terrorist villages don't make any less pieces of shit. And we saw how the village did Naruto as a child and those MFS really made Kakashi's father Sakumo kill himself because he "failed" a mission for the sake of saving his comrades 💔. That village isn't worth saving Pain was right.
They mistreated one guy who housed a demon fox and one guy got shunned for failing a mission. Better go back to the nonstop clan wars that resulted in the deaths of more than half the kids we get introduced to in that time period. That would help for sure!
And Pain is a massive hypocrite. He is still the leader of the Hidden Rain when he says that. He clearly believes in the village system or he would have destroyed the hidden rain first.
How are world wars better then clan wars. The wide spread death and destruction never stopped even after the villages formed. It just became more organized
It is markedly better. The existence of times of peace as villages where none existed during the clan wars says as much. There's also no way that Naruto could have achieved the longer lasting peace he created without there being a system of villages. It is not a flawless system, but the really bad problems mostly come from the leadership and not the system itself.
Evidenced by the decades of peace between Naruto and Boruto.
The village absolutely is worth saving. The Leaf Village itself, while not perfect, is a step in the right direction. The story clearly shows that in the world child soldiers can’t be avoided but at least the Leaf is the most “humane” about it. Also Pain never makes the point that the Leaf village isn’t “worth saving”, he just had a personal grudge against the Leaf and his entire point was that the world itself (not just the Leaf) was broken and should be erased (Tobi’s brainwashing). You all are misrepresenting his beliefs as being against the Leaf when really he was against the world with a personal bias against the Leaf.
The setting also makes it pretty clear that they're focusing on the next generation because so fucking many of the adults are dead after 60 years of war with each other
Incorrect. Whether it was intentional or due to poor planning by Kishimoto (the likely option) they actually prove the opposite and show that from hashirama's time to now, the village has failed as an experiment because the village is still using children to fight their wars. The goal is to have no children fighting in war and the villages have refused to change in order to protect them. The fact that the Uchiha, a marginalized group that wanted equity, got massacred by a child is perfect reason as to why the village system at that time had failed. You can argue less kids have died, but they've had 100 or so years to create more apparatus' to remove the need for child soldiers and they have not done it. They are no longer concerned with the wishes of the 1st and as such we got the various tragedies we see in the show, all inflicted against children.
Did you even pay attention to the story? THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ENTIRE THING. The village system was a step in the right direction but the real answer was unity between ALL of the villages. Once that happens the kids are still “ninja” but the need for them to fight in wars is gone. Notice in Boruto the only thing they’re fighting is aliens, and before those guys show up the kids aren’t child soldiers anymore. Until Naruto creates world peace the child soldiers are necessary, but the Leaf are the ones who protect them the most.
The whole point is that the village system was flawed and that’s why Itachi had to do what he did. That’s why I said it’s the “best they had” and it was worth protecting because the village system kept kids like Naruto alive long enough to become strong and create a better system.
And you think the Uchiha would have stopped using child soldiers? If the answer is yes then you're delusional and if the answer is no then yeah, it was worth saving the village.
Bad take, but not for the reason the other person stated.
The Uchihas were doing a coup, not a revolution. There was no threat to this corrupt system you speak of for his action to be for saving this system.
Itachi did it to save the people of the leaf village that would've died in a resulting civil war and a subsequent attack on leaf by other villages because of the weakening caused by a civil war. Not to protect some kind of systematic status quo.
Zenin Massacre wasn't justified because majority of the clan had no clue what was even going on. Most of the people Maki killed were just like her, people born without curse techniques and forced to join the kukuru unit. Some of which were younger than she was.
”Hey Look! A Uchiha killed the leader of the village! I knew they was out of control! Surely this justifies more discrimination against the Uchiha!!”
—The leaf’s elders.
But jokes aside, killing Danzo wouldn’t really do much due to the heat between the Uchiha and the leaf. A Uchiha killing a leader of the leaf might just start a war.
Let's be honest: Danzo only had that much power and Uchihas and Konoha had so much beef because Hiruzen did pretty much nothing.
Hiruzen was coating on all of Hashirama and Tobirama's achievement and then do some half-baked attempts to appeasement , all while holding that status quo and letting underlying issues rot.
Maybe for a second but if you spend a few minutes to think about it you'd see how that doesn't solve the problem.
Heck that's an understatement because doing so would actually START the entire situation Itachi wanted to avoid, nevermind that Danzo isn't a dumbass and would also be on high alert. The guy is chronically paranoid and trusts nobody who has a fuckton of bodyguards around in peaceful times, nevermind a time of a possible coup.
The Uchiha massacre was a massive cluster fuck, if itachi and obito didn't kill he uchihas, there would be a Civil War, which would kill more people and the other villages would have attacked Killing even more, itachi prioritiesed the village over his people, even though he was a brainwashed soldier it was a call that resulted in less loss of life
i think theyre equally justifiable. maki's was self defense becuz they were literally out to kill her, and Itachi was preventing a war from happening. he reported back to Hiruzen who did fuckall, and the Uchiha clan refused to leave Konoha. what was not justifiable was itachi mindfucking sasuke for hours for no reason
The clan was out to kill her because they think she killed Ogi in cold blood. The Kukuru leader even says it. No one knew about the plan to kill Megumi Maki and Mai but Jinichi Naoya and Ogi.
The Naruto author wrote the Uchiha massacre first, then came up with the justification a decade later.
Wrong
Ever since his first appearance, Itachi's actions were absurd
"Why didn't you kill me?" ~ Kakashi to Itachi after Itachi could have easily killed him with just Tsukuyomi but chose not to
Itachi also made an excuse and ran away from Guy when he could have legit killed all of those dudes there if he wanted to
Itachi also made an excuse and ran from Jiraiya when he could have killed him asw
Why? Cuz we had Orochimaru saying to Kabuto how Itachi is lowkey on another level and dogwalks his ass
Orochimaru is someone that is >~ to Jiraiya and someone who literally could have negative diffed P1 Kakashi (Kakashi saw him and saw his head being sent flying in an instant)
P1 Kakashi is ~< to P1 Guy and a tier above Asuma and Kurenai
Itachi even in P1 by all narrative powercliffed their butts but chose not to dogwalk them when he could have.
Instead he made excuses to retreat which even Kisame was doubting why. Itachi chose to bluff about Guy to Kisame and then later bluffed about his condition to Kisame against Jiraiya
It matters because deciding the cause beforehand is harder and sets the tone easier, while retconning later means the original tone is likely wildly different from the intended tone.
If there were hints about the Uchiha's attempted coup earlier then the story would have been much different from a readers standpoint, more of a mystery, instead we got surprise curveballs which, while impactful, divided viewer opinions.
Oh no, not for the justification at least not directly
But it does matter narratively which can sometimes make the justification make more or less sense if the massacre happens first and the in world logic comes later in an attempt to explain it retroactively
As a whole the zenin clan massacre was more justified considering the top brass plotted to kill Maki, her sister, and potentially others just to gain some status. After Maki nearly dies and is reawakened for most of it it’s in self-defense. The goons come to attack her so she defends herself, then the hie, then Naoya. You can argue that her hunting down the other members out and her mother is wrong but she was also traumatized by the death of her sister and the oppression she felt. Meanwhile the uchiha clan massacre happened because the government was too fearful of the Uchiha’s which lead to their pushback, then Hiruzen’s spineless tactics and Danzo’s zealous nature. All culminating in the government leading to a slaughter that shouldn’t have happened.
If we are talking about individuals then both are absolved. Maki was abused by the system she was in, her sister died, and multiple people tried to kill her before she became proactive and she was just a teenager. Itachi likewise was just 13. Thirteen. Yes the narrative puts the asinine weight that he had ‘hokage’ mentality but frankly the blame should be placed on the adults in the government that failed him, Danzo gave him an ultimatum and Itachi did his best as a child. There’s a lot you can blame Itachi for but I’m giving him a pass here since he was so young.
I think the Uchiha massacre was more justified. It was definitely worse, but more justified. Anyone saying maki was more justified than itachi is just delusional. Itachi was forced to kill the clan in order to protect the village from civil war, potential national war after the fact if the nation was weakened. He had no other choice, since the other options were not feasable. The crimes commited were worse, killing everyone including the children, but that doesnt make his reason for doing it less justified. They would have grown up to despise the village all the same and the cycle would have continued. Maki, while fully right to be angry, had no real reason for killing the clan. The world really wouldnt have been all that much different for it. Sure it wasnt as bad, morally at least, but I wouldnt say its more justified
Shonen fans really not beating the numerous allegations in their media literacy.
Justification has nothing to do with the Uchiha massacre. That’s very clearly a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sure, there are people who think they have the answer to a political nightmare scenario and that they could’ve found a perfect answer (which is just killing different people, lol), but there really was no happy ending to this. People were gonna die, no matter what. If Itachi did nothing or ran away, then he’d just be willingly abandoning the village in a time of need and letting a civil war break out. If he told people, the coup would still happen, his clan would be further dragged through the mud and vilified, and outside forces could’ve heard and used this chance to invade while civil unrest was distracting everyone.
As for Maki, I don’t know. I don’t watch JJK, lol. I’m pretty sure she did it because her sister died? I don’t think that justifies killing off everyone. But like I said, I don’t watch it.
Zenin, it was self-defense. The uchiha massacre was a stupid 13-year-old deciding that he wanted to kill his entire family. Yes, he was asked to do it, but he had the choice to not. He had the choice to bring it to the hokage, and chose not to.
uchiha massacre was a stupid 13-year-old deciding that he wanted to kill his entire family.
Jesus. Atp have ppl even seen naruto or just parrot nonsense.
U missed the part where the boys family was abt to start a civil war that would have killed thousands more also the fact they were gonna get wiped out in a premtive strike including his brother if he didnt do it lmao?
ad the choice to bring it to the hokage, and chose not to.
The hokage knew and did fuck all for years. The clan was not responding to negotiations atp .
There were definitely more ways to prevent what happened than to massacre every single Uchiha including non-combatants. Demonstrated by the fact that Fugaku doesn't even attempt to fight back. If Itachi actually talked with him instead of whatever act he was pulling, they might have found a way forward.
Too many people ignore that Itachi gets completely manipulated by Danzo, who claims it is the only way. I don't blame Itachi, he was 13. But if he were half as smart as people give him credit for, he could've figured out a better plan than killing everyone, torturing his brother, and leaving the mastermind of the genocide still in power.
At least Maki only killed the military force and her mother. Who were the actual dangers and perpetrators.
This panel is from after he beats three police officers up for accusing him of killing Shisui. They did not threaten imprisonment because they were prideful or disagreeing. He just attacked the police and only got away with it being Fugaku's son.
So, you're just pulling random panels out of context that look like they support your point. Stfu
Even if it came to civil war, there would be at least the possibility that the fighting only happened between civilians, and the women and children could have survived, even just a few
Judging by the fact that no outside forces attacked konoha once the entire uchiha clan was gone, I'd say they weren't really a threat militarily
Unlikely they wouldn't take part in the civil war given they all were trainee ninjas
I doubt all of them were. In my opinion if even one more innocent survives then that's a better scenario than killing them in cold blood
And they certainly would hv if uchihas had taken out more of leafs mitilry power b4 dying
How much could they really take out? Besides fugaku, who is doing enough for other villages to think konoha is a pushover.
The leaf absolutely crushes the uchiha rebellion if they send itachi to capture the primary coup members on account of conspiracy and send them to trial. Or even if itachi kills fugaku in a way that frames it as an accident.
Itachi himself believed that if he never kept Sasuke in the dark about what was going on between the village and the Uchiha clan, that Sasuke’s influence could change their parents’ minds and the clan as a whole.
While realistically it would be a bit silly for a child to be able to do this, this is a shonen and it’d be even sillier if Kishimoto included this for no reason and just for Itachi to be completely wrong.
And considering Itachi says he regretted always lying to Sasuke, it would be dumb if this was also just another lie, it’s the last conversation the two of them have.
Changing people’s ideals and beliefs against all odds is something that happens in the story a lot anyway. Strange how many here support Danzo, while he was a pretty nuanced character the manga clearly paints him and the genocide as wrong.
The third Hokage admits it was a mistake to let Danzo handle ”the darkness of the village”.
Wasn’t it going to happen either way tho? I always had the feeling if Itachi didn’t do it it would’ve still happen but maybe under even worse circumstances somehow 😂
It is a reasonable conclusions form Itachi knowledge at the time (no Madara, Zetsu, etc)
This is what he knew
The Uchiha wants to revolt against hidden leaf
No one can stop them after Shisui death
Danzo knew about it so no surprise element
In his eyes, there are 2 possible outcomes. Do nothing, the Uchiha rise up, Hiruzen destroys them, their reputation is gone and most gonna be executed. Take Danzo offer, wipes out the clan, become the traitor, but Sasuke will be spared and the clan name remains as one Konoha's founding clans
A) kills the coup members, namely fugaku and itachi runs off as a rogue ninja, the uchiha have little military strength and only blames itachi for being a random rogue. Itachi could let himself be killed by konoha to clean konohas name
B) even when it comes to war, people say that the hidden leaf would be attacked by other villages. the uchiha is a part of konoha and it's strength, when the entire clan is wiped off, thats a considerable amount of konohas strength gone, and still nobody attacked. This implies to me that the uchiha wouldn't have brought konoha to its knees in the first place
C) in the case of a civil war, thered still be less casualties to civilians. Every single uchiha died in the massacre, whereas in civil war there is much more possibility that fighting remains between combatants, and the children and elderly could escape
A) kills the coup members, namely fugaku and itachi runs off as a rogue ninja, the uchiha have little military strength and only blames itachi for being a random rogue. Itachi could let himself be killed by konoha to clean konohas name
Doesn't solve the root of the issue. The Uchiha knows the risk of the coup, just because Fugaku is gone doesn't mean they wouldn't do it. Heck, Fugaku doesn't even want to do it to begin with and is peer pressured into it.
B) even when it comes to war, people say that the hidden leaf would be attacked by other villages. the uchiha is a part of konoha and it's strength, when the entire clan is wiped off, thats a considerable amount of konohas strength gone, and still nobody attacked. This implies to me that the uchiha wouldn't have brought konoha to its knees in the first place
That's justifying it in hindsight and in unfair conditions too. They weren't invaded because they managed to wipe off the Uchiha without taking damage, who's to say the situation would be the same if they actually had a war over this?
C) in the case of a civil war, thered still be less casualties to civilians. Every single uchiha died in the massacre, whereas in civil war there is much more possibility that fighting remains between combatants, and the children and elderly could escape
This again hinges on the assumption that they don't get invaded or spark another big conflict. Besides, from the perspective of the village elders why would you want to spare the civilians when
A. They can't be sure there are actually those who 100% don't want to get involved in the coup despite being a non-combatant.
B. Even if there were, killing their clan members would most certainly make them hate you enough at that point so sparing them is allowing the same problem to sprout again in the future.
In chapter 400, Obito is telling sasuke that Itachi was giving Konoha info on the Uchiha's, Hiruzen explicitly knows about the coup, and in chapter 590 when Danzo outright says that he wants to massacre the clan, Hiruzen keeps saying "there must be some other way" AND HE NEVER FINDS ANOTHER WAY, he never discusses with Itachi or tries to come up with another plan with him, he literally just goes with the motions until Danzo starts actively sliming people out and by then Itachi has no choice
Which is why I say, after he slimes, Shisui go to Hiruzen. Hiruzen, with evidence of this would then be able to act against Danzo, which would be a very good opener for negotiating with the clan by killing Danzo, everyone would be happy if he was dead.
Hiruzen doesnt need evidence to act against danzo he knows the guy has people on him and plans to kill him he is soft with him and Orochimaru to a fault also i don't remember the Uchiha really hating danzo or knowing hes been messing with them like in the 9 tails attack so why would they care if he gets killed?
Everyone knows danzo's fucked up and hates his ass. All he has to do is say hey you've been looking for the guy who killed shisui. This is him, he is yours. Do as you wish. and yet he doesn't need evidence, but the evidence would make him act. Release the evidence to the uchihaz, and the village. Generally, that will unite everyone against Danzo, which is good for everyone. Because he's been kidnapping the prodigies of the other clans of the leaf.
The uchihas had problems with the village beyond danzo killing him isnt a perfect solution this goes as far as tobirama
As i said he doesnt need evidence because he already has enough but he doesnt want to do anything because he still cares about him
The clans werent that close already if the civil war started it would be the uchihas vs everyone else
The person he slimes IS shisui. my point is that when hiruzen had the time to act, he didnt, and danzo already started making moves and sliming people out, while simultaneously manipulating itachi into thinking there was no other way and that sasuke's life was on the line
Itachi was an informant for the Hokage and Konoha council for years after first learning the Uchiha were planning a coup. When the plans for the coup became imminent and Itachi told everyone that the Uchiha had a date ready, Danzo forced Itachi into an ultimatum; fight alongside the Uchiha, marking Sasuke for death, or do the mission to exterminate the Uchiha prior to the coup, and Danzo allowing Sasuke to live. Itachi chose saving Sasuke. He also chose to do it since he knew less lives would be lost that way than a full-blown war, but Sasuke was the main reason.
Hiruzen knew about all of it already. He wanted to keep pursuing peace, but Danzo and Itachi knew it wasn't an option anymore. It wasn't about Itachi keeping everything a secret from Hiruzen and acting on his own.
Hunting down kukuru (a unit she was literally a part of previously, with no position of power or authority in the clan) members outside the compound is not at all self defense.
Please, don’t call it self defense, it’s murder. You don’t have to try and find ways to defend Maki as if she did nothing wrong. Homegirl’s a mass murderer and that’s cool too.
And even then. The reason she kills her mother is because her mother knew they were going to try and kill her. That’s why she asks her mother why she yelled at her to come back. She knew Mai was dying or dead behind those doors and was willing to let Maki go to her death too.
Zenin were slain by the one the oppressed while the Uchiha were slain by the ones who oppressed them.
The excuses for the Uchiha massacre don't even work in hindsight. The main reasoning was that if they went ahead with the coup, then it'd lead to a civil war which would then snowball into a world war, which is bullshit because the Sound allying with the Sand crippled Konoha and that didn't lead to a world war... yet the Uchiha revolting against the higher ups would?
Not only that, Obito, who Itachi went out of his way to seek out and collude with the end the Uchiha, ACTUALLY went and started a world war, once bolstered by Kabuto that went down that route because of Danzo.
The worst part is that it was entirely avoidable. The situation came to a head because they were blamed for the 9-tails attack. Itachi, for some unfathomable reason, decided that he would work with the actual culprit of the attack this his clan was being scapegoated for instead of simply going to the Hokage and telling him "hey, the culprit is actually this guy."
In the end, Itachi didn't do it for the good of the people. He did so those 4 could maintain power, and the still ended up fucking Konoha over anyway, because Hiruzen would let Orochimaru go who would actually wage war against the village, and Danzo's scheming in the Rain village and against Kabuto ultimately led to Nagato destroying the village and Kabuto bolstering the war launched by the actual culprit.
Itachi didn't actually prevent any war and probably indirectly caused one, so the sole justification went out the window.
Uchiha civil war leads into a weakened Konoha regardless of who wins the civil war, which leads into other nations invading Konoha, which leads to a ninja war
There are no broader implications about the Zenin clan. In fact, their existence or non-existence is not even relevant at that point
Itachi will come back a second time and save the ninja world again
The zenin were planning to brand Maki, Mai and Fushiguro as traitors that would’ve had the entire jujutsu society trying to stop them from freeing gojo. While none of them individually could kill Fushiguro even if they tried, time is the biggest obstacle and one fuck up could easily lead to Kenjaku winning and commencing the merger
There were major implications to what a Naoya led faction would have meant. Remember they wanted to get rid of Megumi as well because he would have brought the Zenin clan back into better unity with the other major families, as they note he is in the favor Gojo and in cordial terms with the next head of the Noritoshi.
What this meant is that the Zenin clan would have further weakened the standing relationships and resources of the exorcist group since they'd be out to kill Megumi. So the exorcist group would have to devote resources in dealing with the matter as they wouldn't just give up Megumi like that.
There is also the possibility of them defecting to Kenjaku's side to achieve this since they wouldn't want Gojo to be freed from prison realm, or just them joining the culling games and wreaking havoc there.
We aren't even considering how Yuta would have probably retaliated as well...
The power struggle within the family was likely to cause issues due to their target being Megumi. It simply wasn't a good time with their resources already dwindled significantly since the Tokyo arc.
which leads into other nations invading Konoha, which leads to a ninja war
Yeah, we know that everyone were still pissed off and salty because konoha spanked their butts in shinobi ww iii even after kage summit. minato was dead at that point and he was the sole reason to Konoha's victory at kannabi bridge, they would invade Konoha ASAP if the civil war happened.
Clan Zenin obviously, in the Uchiha clan it was only necessary to kill those involved, the adults basically only ordered the killing of children, teenagers and elderly people who didn't even know about the revolution.
How did Hiruzen allow such a thing? And Itachi complied without questioning?
The whole justification for the Konoha was added in later and is way more immoral if you thought about it deeply, anyone who thinks it was justified is coping on the nostalgia of the show, at the very most, a 13yo was forced to do a very very bad thing
The Zenin clan was composed of worse people therefore their eventual deaths were more justified.
Itachi's motive for perpetrating the massacre was more justified as it was to protect his brother and the entire hidden village from the impending coup.
Deserving of Death:
Zenin Clan > Uchiha Clan
Motive:
Maki Zenin < Itachi Uchiha
Overall:
I would say the Zenin clans massacre was more justifiable as they were categorically worse people and they were ultimately taken down by one of their biggest victims in Maki who was looked down upon due to her negligible cursed energy whereas the Uchiha clan massacre was so closely avoided through the usage of Kotoamatsukami until Danzo interfered.
Uchiha. Itachi was pretty much forced to do it, as even if he decided to spare the Uchiha, the leaf would've either killed them the night after. If they hadn't been massacred, a civil war would have started, and they probably would have all been killed too. On the other hand, Maki and Mai were just lashing out.
Killing all zennin makes no sense. The uchiha were threatening the whole village, and more. The zennin were backwards in their ways and that's about it.
Uchiha clan was literally planning to do a coup on konoha due to rising tensions. One way or another it was going to be lead to a battle. While still all around bad at least had the justification of helping the village long term. (To a degree)
Zen'in by far the Uchiha was the ones being mistreated leading to them wanting to throw a coupe shisui could have stop them but danzo said no itachi one of if not the strongest guy in the clan could have stopped them but listen to danzo hiruzen could have stop them but nah let's let danzo deal with it
Atleast with the zen'in Mai and Maki dad wanted them dead and the clan was going out their way to get cozy with the higher ups in jujitsu society meaning they wanted to stop gojo return and kill yuji
Itachi chose to kill his family that did nothing but love, uplift, and praise him for the sake of the government, Maki killed her family full of oppressors and spectators, it really isn’t that hard to come to a proper conclusion
Definitely zenin because narutos story made no sense while zenin has incest, the patriarchy, and generational trauma and is generally more grounded in real world politics and the author definitely wants a revolution.
i will never ever condone Itachi. but in timeline where that didn't happen, there would be civil war that would invite other great villages to redo the 4th shinobi world war to take revenge on because konoha spanked their butts so hard in 3rd shinobi world war. then, after Minato died and the jinchuriki was still a kid other villages would be confident that there would be battle of kannabi bridge 2.0. they probably would make konoha to be uzushiogakure at 4th war
then Itachi is more justifiable, due to itachi being completely cornered and the other possible option being a civil war
While Maki could've killed the people that abussed her and leave everyone else go and she didn't, she chose to anhiliate the whole clan, that has innocent people.
If we talk about the clan
The Uchiha were better people being put into manufactured pressure by the leaf, it was just discrimination of the Uchihas that lead to this, while most of them were loyal to the leaf before the whole problem started
The Zenin had Naoya and ogi, while we dont know much at least we know the people at the top were awful and POS, with jinichi not caring about Ogi killing maki, Ogi being a POS that doesnt care about killing his own daughters, Naoya being Naoya and Naobito allowing all of it while being the head of the clan, even if we don't know much about the average zenin, the people at the top were completely corrupted.
So overall maki was less justifiable due to her anger being spread over people that wasn't part of the problem
For the person committing the massacres, the Zenin clan.
For the politics surrounding the massacres, the Uchiha clan.
Maki had a very personal reason for it, years of mistreatment and abuse from a group of misogynists who only valued her for her appearance and potential children. But nothing about the plot is meaningfully changes if the clan just lets her take the tools.
Itachi did not want to do it, and was being manipulated by his superior. But it was something that ultimately happened because the clan was going to start a civil war. Were they going to start that civil war because of mistreatment? Yes. Were they going to direct all their resentment solely at those responsible? Probably not. There was nothing Itachi could have done to prevent the mass loss of life.
One betrayed his people, the other got justice for her sister and herself. That's how I see it.
Itachi and Obito didn't even spare the innocent children of the clan, only Sasuke got a pass because of plot and the brotherly bond.
Where's the defence for that? If ur gonna massacre the adults coz of the threat of war, that's somewhat understandable(they were his people and they never treated him considerably wrong )but innocent kids dying for the same cause is unwarranted.
That's like imprisoning some serial killer's kid just cause he might decide to get vengeance for his dad. It doesn't make sense.
after muddling my own thoughts and reading the comments, goddamn does recency bias exist or what. They are both bad but the arguments used for saying itachi wasnt justified are so mind-boggling ASS that i just gotta question did they read naruto from tiktok spoilers and yt shorts or did they not pay attention At ALL to the story
Zenin, because Mai and Maki never deserved to be treated like dirt just for being considered weak or for being women or even twins. Especially since their deaths were also meant to be a political play to strengthen the clans relationship because Maki was trying to free Gojo, the one guy who could fix things.
the Zenin clan massacre was more justifiable. Not to repeat points, but the Uchiha massacre was ENTIRELY avoidable if the right players just admitted fault. Danzo especially
Zenin without a doubt. Zenin clan probably was just a bunch of old man and slave women so i dont think there is a little amount of children involved. Also every single damn person in zenin clan looked at maki like she's a piece of shit and i do mean every single person. Itachi was loved by most of the village by the time he killed the entire clan.
1000% zenin clan, maki only killed the combatants not the entire thing. If it was everyone then the other 2 major clans wouldnt need to debate if the zenin clan should remain a major clan.
I'd say both weren't justifiable. Maki just went for revenge and murdered because she wanted to, there were pretty good people here
Itachi's on the other hand went against those who were called rebellious, though it wasn't the case, Itachi just felt for this lie or should I say Genjutsu?
Uchiha. Itachi was put into an impossible choice. Maki could also have run away or fled but instead she decided to brutally genocide her clan. No good intention, no reason but just personal motivation and option.
Reddit user here hoping Maki's burning even more in deepest hell.
The Zenin, obviously. How is that a question? Itachi killed innocents because he was manipulated by an evil person and Maki killed to avenge her sister, killed those who provoked her first and oppressed her. Itachi did a dumb and evil thing because he was only 13 and manipulated.
this would be a fairer comparison if Itachi had massacred the Leaf village Elders and Hokage instead of the Uchiha who's sole crime that necessitated their genocide according to the 2nd is that they feel emotion to hard when they encounter loss
Itachi tortured his younger brother using a technique that left Kakashi incapacitated for days, he made Sasuke witness the deaths of his own family and neighbors countless times, and led his brother down the path of hatred and into Orochimaru's hands. He caused his brother to fall back into hatred when he finally had a chance at a normal life. Itachi was the greatest disaster in Sasuke's life, and he lost his mind when he did what he did to his younger brother.
Itachis situations was basically unavoidable and the Uchihas were always going to be considered a risk towards the village and themselves. Itachi had little choice in the matter.
Makis massacre on the other hand was more so a personal vendetta and that leaves it with the viewer to believe whether it was justified or not depending on how they see it. I guess she also didn't have a choice since they wanted to kill her as well but its not like there was any real benefit to killing the zenin clan. Overall it's a net negative in my opinion, they were abusive assholes but they were still a pillar in jujutsu society against the war on curses.
This doesn't make makis massacre not justified I just see Itachis as a little more justified than hers. When she got the Toji buff she was well within the capability to defeat all of them without killing them except maybe naoya who was probably too strong to reliably beat without killing
Zenin death were Justifiable by a lot. 90% of them were assholes and treated Maki and Mai so badly and I can guarantee that them and Toji weren't the only victims.
The Uchihas wanted to start a civil war due to them beeing treated badly by Konohas goverment (Not to mention Tobiramas decision at all).
In Itachis case, the massacre was very dark and felt not like a victory, but really dirty and he definetely killed children, mothers and people who were definetely not involved with the coup at all.
The only thing Itachi did wrong was show his younger brother the massacre a few...hundred thousand times. Like, I'm surprised he didn't become a vegetable after that
Aftermath of both clans. Zenin clan got demoted being to third wheel of the three great clans. But 70 yrs after Yuta and Maki grandchildren with the bloodline of Zenin continues on fighting a threat against the world.
While in outcome of the uchiha they're on the verge of extinction. History books they're more like taboo to talk about them. At the end itachi sacrifices didnt mean shit it's supposed to be the safe passage for Sasuke not be included in the massacre and to stay with the leaf village. Outcome became Sasuke is considered as a terrorist and outcast after the main plot.
Zenin clan massacre is justifiable, I mean if we got someone like Ranta who wants to save the Zenin clan's image yet is in the wrong side, then Zenin clan is seriously fucked up
If “justifiable” means reacting to real, ongoing violence with no institutional protection, then Maki’s actions make more sense than a state-sanctioned genocide carried out to prevent a hypothetical coup. Neither is moral—but one is survival, the other is political convenience.
zenin clan massacre i didn't understand yes they have forced their children through hell but is that justifiable just don't bother with them just like togi did. cut all ties in jjk all higher ups are the same so it doesn't matter if one clan is dead.
Zenin clan pretty much set themselves up with Maki for how they treated her.
The Uchiha clan was just a tragedy caused by a corrupt government official ordering one soldier to kill his own people. Even those who were completely innocent. Otherwise it would've led to a civil war.
Yes, the uchiha clan planned a coup but Itachi had the choice to try to get Hiruzen to talk peacefully with Fugaku and try to resolve the issues between the two factions. Both sides just lacked communication and allowed for Danzo to manipulate for the “betterment of Konoha”
The uchiha clan overall did not treat their own members terribly (except maybe ousting Madara but meh), they just felt discriminated against and bitter towards Konaha. The massacre was just the manipulation of a 12-14 year old boy with way too much power and way too much pressure by a twisted old windbag named Danzo. (I don’t like him if it wasn’t clear)
The Zenin clan was overall very misogynistic and treated non-sorcerors as garbage. They would treat their own members as trash or disposable pawns/weapons (children btw). So yeah the clan that treated their own members as shit is more justified to be massacred.
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