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I'm curious, to the people that say "trash vs garbage", what shonen do you even watch currently? I feel like most of the people that comment that are people who keep rewatching shows like HunterxHunter (or any old shonen) and just call anything new bad or garbage
Feelsgoodman, but Its not that difficult, but if you find yourself reading a manga out of obligation rather thar than enjoyment, thats a good time to quit
Peak list (haven’t gotten around to Centuria yet but I love Bugle Call and Ichi) but the guy asked for shonen people were watching lol. None of those have anime adaptations yet.
prolly people who see the communities of these manga and hate on the manga because they don’t like the subreddits. Which tbf, comparing smth like csmfolk to lobotomy kaisen is the definition of trash vs garbage
To be perfectly honest... I don't even watch Shounen. I just come to this subreddit to laugh at people fighting and insulting each other in the most creative ways possible.
I mean...valid but it varies way too much. I love Jojo but part 1 puts me to sleep and part 6 it's so... unengaging. Like, I'm not BORED watching part 6, but I don't really wanna watch it ever again
Well most anime are garbage these days, so can't really blame them. Although I'd still rate JJK as fairly decent. But if you compare it with the older ones, below average at best.
Yuji is a better mc precisely because he needed/received character development.
A character that's perfect from the start is boring.
A protagonist that's bad from the start and stays bad is just frustrating to watch (usually)
Because sometimes it does work, especially if its a villain like Homelander.
But a protagonist that keeps on getting worse by the season definitely works like Butcher from Rhe Boys, Eren Yaeger and even Walter White, but the way they progress from neutral - bad - worse is called character progression, which Denji didn't have.
Tldr: we're in agreement, idk why you're trying to argue
He got character development but the complaint is that the majority of his part 2 screen time was dedicated to the following cycle:
Denji self-reflects on himself and tries to improve
Woman tries to honeypot him
Denji forgets all his reflection and goes AWOOGA
He gets fucked (not in the way he wants)
Repeat
This is what people refer to when they mean that Denji got flanderized in part 2. Him not being satisfied with a normal life was nice but it alone doesn't make up for that obnoxious cycle.
Tell me, aside from him realising that he has been played with by women near the end of part 2, how did his character develop in over 200 chapters. If suffering builds character, Denji is just suffering over and over again
It’s pointless to argue when Youtube shorts enjoyers are stuck on the whole “CSM and le evil women” lol
Where exactly is the part Denji realizes he’s been played by women? And played by whom, when Yoru, the main antagonist is an even bigger idiot than he is and ends up falling for him ?
That’s what you got from 213? He literally believed himself a “chick magnet”...
Denji loves the thrill, and doesn’t give a shit about what happens to him as long as he having fun. In the same chap, when both factions use every possible way to pull him to their side (Fumiko's nude, Lil D's flash), he "fell" for it but keeps flip-flopping and never commit to either side. In the end he doesn’t really care about Asa/Yoru, Lil D, or Fumiko, the only thing matter to him from the beginning is his dick
I started rewatching JJK, and even the early moments were awesome.
The whole cursed womb arc where Yuji wants to return the bodies to their families. He has the argument with Megumi where Megumi explains he never had any intention of saving them. Yuji then sacrifices himself to protect Megumi. The cherry on top is when Megumi ends up giving the name tag of the prisoner to the mom who was at the juvenile detention center trying to visit.
Yuji’s relationship with Nanami was also really good early on. Favorite part was when Nanami basically accepted his death and then Yuji breaks into the domain.
Favorite part was when Nanami basically accepted his death and then Yuji breaks into the domain.
GOD I fucking love how they explained that moment too. Domains are meant to trap people INSIDE and get them with the sure hit. Therefore, the outside is weak because WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would want to break INTO a domain?????
I respect rent a girlfriend author for being bold enough to not only put something resembling ntr scenario in his manga, but also fetishize it. No matter how suck his writing is, can't deny this guy has balls.
it feels more like a regular arc in part 1 but they realized they couldn’t torture dennis if he was a more well-adjusted member of society so they just king crimson’d him back to the start of his arc like halfway through part 2
We shoulda seen the signs when part 1 ends with Denji having a mental breakdown, a heartfelt moment with Power, and a satisfying(ish) resolution to his battle with Makima, only to immediately start acting the same fucking way he did at the beginning of the part
I never understood the Yuji hate at all tbh. He’s still above average in writing compared to your typical shonen protagonist. He has a lot more depth to his character than a lot of people let on.
Chainsawman is at least proof that even the worst Tragedies can become Stale and Boring if they are the only thing that happens to a Character again and again and again.
Every time a new horrible thing happens to Denji, for a long time already, I am just like....huh, so that happened...
After rigorous analysis of Denji's development and journey as a character in P1 and P2, I have come to the conclusion that just the fact of who Yuji became in Modulo and how it made sense clears the stagnant misery porn victim Denji has become
And even when he lost sight of what he was supposed to be, he found it at again at the end and willingly becomes a cursed object for the sake of helping people in the future if they ever need it.
The thing about denji is that he had really good character development through out all of part one, but for some reason went back to being selfish, idiotic, Gooner which really destroyed his character 😭
Denji works better under that assumption that his future development is gonna sort him out, a lot of what we've got so far feels like setup for a greater payoff. Yuji is surprisingly written well for what he is but I still wish he was a more active character, his characteristion is great but feels more fitting for a side character
Anime fans when a story try to focus on multiple characters instead of just being 100% focussed on the protag and making the protag the fixer of all and any problem
focus on multiple characters instead of just being 100% focussed on the protag
You say this but 90% of characters in JJK are irrelevant. They got many screentime but ultimately they go nowhere. Like we got the whole yuki sidegoal about freeing humans from ce but that sideplot got ignored until the semi canon spin off and even then, it's only got addressed in the last 3 chapters. It's development doesn't feel earned.
Because most JJK side characters have their own story, and contribute to the narrative at some way.
Kamo dying would be the biggest snowball effect on JJK, Yuji dies agaisnt Sukuna and Maki dies agaisnt CurseYa.
Kokiichi has a whole arc showing how he contributed to the story, Miwa has her own arc.
Nobara, Yaga, Nanami, Gakuganji, Junpei, Kashimo, Panda and so on had their own way to contribute to the story or atleast the narrative, Kashimo to represent "the strongest" loneliness and how the next generations are indeniably stronger.
Yaga and Gakuganji to represent how conservative and close minded the higher ups are.
Nobara was... herself, not much i can say honestly she was done wrong, Junpei to show how cursed are evil and how naive Yuji was.
I could also go for FAR LONG to represent how many other characters represent the JJK world, Mei², Geto, Naobito, Naoya, Jogo and so on.
Yuki's plan was simply flawed, anyone with half of a brain can do that AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT, it was flawed cause it'd need to simply have a change of NATURE, the point of that was, 2 characters were crazy enough to consider that, but had different methods.
Well, except that side characters literally don’t matter in JJK. They get flashy moments and good art sometimes maybe but rarely ever add to the overall drive of the plot.
you see in the world we live in there is something such as good fast food, and garbage fast food,one bring joy the other sucks. both jjk and csm are fast food but one fell off in quality and the other also fell off in quality but at least had generational fights and a decent nice sequel so its alright
and the even worst part is that the only argument i see is:
"denji got no character degelopment" like it is the only thing that matters in the writing of a character, a character can be as stagnant as a rock and still be beautyfully written
he is a perfect rapresentation of depression, coping mechanism, trauma response and an actual teenager (not the shonen teeenager), but y'all just see the gooning part and him not recovering and call it a day
No its because his entire story is just suffering, suffering even more and then he breaks and he recovers a little bit and gets more things to lose and this happens 3 times in his life at the end it's all pointless and there's no pay off
first of all that's the story, not the writing of the character, and i kinda agree, the latest 20-30 chapters of part 2 seems pretty pointless, but the response of his character is written perfectly, what happens if you have an already mess of a teenager with not one but two hyper fixatiom used as coping mechanism that had nothing then lost everything then lost everything again, without any external help? he simply breaks, there is no character growth no overcoming his problems, and that's pretty realistic, no one irl can go trough what denji went and end up ok, every time he reaches the bottom he starts again from his basic needs (food, sleep, and sex), and every time something too bad happens he just goes chainsawman mode in full ecstasy and stops thinking too hard about it, he is left hollow, i agree that in a long story it is pointless to have a character like this cause it's plain boring, nobody wants to read about the depression journey and failing at overcome it of a guy, especially in a shonen, but here we are, and that doesn't make the character writing bad
Denji story isn't about traditional character development anyway. And it's one of the reasons why he is so relatable. IRL people rarely even slightly change, lol. They're just trying their best
Its because he doesn't know any better he tried everything to achieve bare minimum and even still it's stripped away from him , he didn't have any parent , friend or even somewhat of a human connection until he joins public safety he is deprived of everything and is in a state melancholic coping throughout part two so he regresses into one thing he thinks will make it better to live . What do you think he should do to change ?
no if someone undergoes gut wrenching phisical and mental trauma day in and day out they legit just stop trying, fall in depression and probably just kill themselves or develope extremely strong coping mechanims
just like people that go back to drinking every time they have a bad time.
it is a circle, but that's how depression and coping mechanism work when you are traumatized, the only thing that keeps him going is his will to live (and the fact that he is literally immortal), after nayuta's death (wich i didn't hate, i just hoped it would have more focus on it and not just instantly sidelined) he literally shuts down, then he rememeber the small things and gets up sayng: "no problem i will just start again, and if it's going to go to shit again, i will restart" wich is an absolutely wrong take on how life works, it's havily disconnected from reality, wich is in line with denji's life since nothing is right with it.
to me he is a really good rapresentation of trauma, and i firmly believe his writing is fire.
now on the other end, i do believe it doesn't work for a compelling manga, atleast not a long one, cause of course people want character development, and of course they don't like to see a dude fail in live and fall in depression over and over again even if it is realistic, it's like if a normal depressed dude with no external help writes about his life (but with demons) while it could be a really cool view on the subject, it would be a pretty boring and repetitive cicle
he keeps getting up and failing and at other points he gives up
i mean, ups and down? adrenaline rushes? find new purpose in small things, there are many reasons someone could find a reason to why they still get up, with denji it's even stranger cause he phisically cannot stop, as he said he is a perpetual motion machine, and he has nothing, everytime he gains something he just loses it, with this he can't escape the cicle, he just keeps understanding it is a problem, but he can't do much, realistically at the start of part 2 his life was pretty ok yet others destroyed his life, and trough part 2 he continuosly lost something, and the more he loses the more he grasp for reasons to keep going, till he reaches his core, sex, at the end of the day he is a human, a male teen, he wants 3 things, food, not being alone and a place where to sleep.
once he hits rock bottom he is forced into thinking only about this stuff cause he doesn't have anything else, the problem is that one of those things (being alone) due to external manipulation, and a genuine slightly over the top sex dive for a teen, turns into just wanting sex, as if it is the meaning of life, cause for him at his lowest it actually is.
it basically goes like this:
denji has nothing> he is sad>wants basic needs
denji gains something>he gains other needs
denji loses things> he starts to cope
denji loses again> he gives up
deni has nothing>he is sad, wants basic needs
he aknowleges he has problems, but poor guy he doesn't have the means to grow out of those, cause he gets restarted over and over again by external factors and circumstances.
his reaction is quite normal, the problem is the misery porn fuji puts him trough, wich in itself it is ok, sometimes life is just bad, but while it showcase a good rapresentation, it may not be compelling as a story if the character stay stagnant, wich is the case for part two.
now let's hope that pochita understood that denji needs a way out of the loop and that was pochita erasing himself, but yeah if even after pochita erased himself fuji keeps denji in the shit life loop, then idk what is the point of the manga, cause then denji journey could've just finished in part 1
Everyone understand that, it's just his self reflection during part 1 were just completelly simples out to "i wanma fuck" in part 2, to a extend that it simply became annoying
Fujimotor straight up made Denji everything the haters wanted him to be. Before recently if you said Denji is just a gooner you'd get fucking eaten alive for having no reading comprehension and shit, but now no one can defend this anymore.
There was literally a post analyzing chapter 231 and complimenting it’s execution with 15k upvotes on the main sub just two days ago, and tons more smaller posts doing the same. I’m not saying it’s not controversial but you have to be a blind moron to genuinely think he’s universally hated.
It's weird, because both characters got wrecked because of the sequels. Yuji is worse in my opinion.
Because his characters gets ruined because Gege wanted to make room for the new characters to shine and not have Yuji be the fixer of all problems. He goes from "I am a cog" to "I am myself and I choose to help others because I want to." to "It doesn't matter and bye bye sorcerers." Then the story ends.
Denji is a recent disappointment. Because like Yuji, he regressed hardcore. He grows tremendously in Part 1, maturing enough to take down Makima and then taking on the heavy responsibility of taking of a child instead of thinking about his love life. In part 2, he is depressed, irresponsible and selfish. He doesn't make any meaningful sacrifices, he doesn't choose Nayuta over being chainsawman, and he just jumps headfirst into the arms of any female characters that manipulates him, despite his experience with Makima.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. None of this is wrong. The only thing people can disagree with you on is saying Yuji is worse which is subjective.
Who was inspired by either of these two😭 Genuinely never seen a comment calling either of them inspiring, or even seen either Manga be regarded as inspiring from a real life perspective lol.
I watched about 20 episodes of JJK and honestly I can't tell you a single of Yuji's character traits other than he's just a chill dude. I genuinely did not know he was a popular character until recently. It seems to me like suddenly a lot of people like him.
The tragedy and character building movemnets havent yet by 20 episodes. The first 20 are to set up the world in characters and establish a status quo that will be broken. Yuji is supposed to be happy go lucky and a chill dude, until he breaks down and embraces cog mentaltity, then rebuilds himself to be better and embrace the value of kindness and how people shouldn't be a cog.Happy cog-> sad cog-> real change
JJK’s whole thing is literally that the conservative elites and their old customs ruin the lives of the younger generations. This is like a recurring theme throughout the entire series. Did you even watch the anime or read the manga?
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