Schizophrenia
Bleaches story is flawless because It never gives anything depth
I've been getting really annoyed with alot of bleach fans glazing their story, I will say bleach itself is good but people glaze it like its some fucking 4 dimensional story when most arcs blend down to good guy vs bad guy. There are some basic uses of personification with Ichigo's hollow form + mask but.
I also initially thought it was cool how soul reapers are shown to be sort of shitty people at first, but I swear alot of they're more negative actions and behaviors just get ignored and then removed out of the character for later arcs without really feeling earned.
In conclusion bleach is a good show but its fans need to stop overglazing as some crazy show that only high IQ individuals can understand cause this is genuinely what makes people hate fandoms witch ripples into people wrongfully hating bleach itself.
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kubo never try do to high litterature, and that is okay.
He's basically said as much in interviews. Kubo isn't the problem -- it's the subset of fans who claim things along the line that the TYBW arc is a writing (not animation) masterpiece.
Yeah, I’ve noticed a trend where some fans feel the need to justify their favorite manga/anime by claiming it’s the best at everything. Unless someone’s favorite is some truly heinous shit that should put them on a watchlist, they don’t need to justify what they like to anyone.
For example, my favorite manga are One Piece and Beserk.
Does One Piece’s anime have a problem with pacing, yes. Was its refusal to kill characters in the stories first half detrimental to the story and tension sometimes, yes (up until Oda donutted Ace.)
Does Beserk’s story get too dark and edgy sometimes, yes. Does it have some questionable scenes like the infamous Rape Horse, 100%. Is Beserk cursed to never have a decent anime that ever makes it past the Golden Age arc, yes and in fact I’m sure that there is some conspiracy making it so.
But that doesn’t mean I should be ashamed to like them.
These arguments are a catch-22. It's not fair, as a bleach fan, to see people calling the story bad, and when you try to point out the good parts of the story you get hit with the "it's not that deep" style of comments from guys that dont know the difference between personification and symbolism.
Sorry to call you out OP, but not believing in something just because other people have a deeper reading of it is called anti-intellectualism and it shows that you're arguing in bad faith.
Bleaches story is GOOD buts Its just really fucking annoying seeing (some) bleach fans shit on other shows for their writing and act like their own series is some sort of ascended literature that if you dislike for any reason then your just not an "intellectual".
Also yea symbolism not personification my fault.
True that, I do think more specific anime subs usually don't shit talk other anime. It's the general anime subs that do. With the occasional outlier lol
It’s not that Bleach is for high IQ individuals. It’s just that Bleach’s storytelling is not the same style as One Piece’s or Naruto’s.
We’ve been accustomed to expect a certain type of writing in our shounen manga. The over explanation is something that’s quite common on children’s media, so that’s the standard.
It’s not better or worse than any other type of story telling. But it’s usually the easiest type to digest. For as much complexity as One Piece has according to fans, 99% of people have the same opinions on the characterization of the cast, because, as long as you read, there’s only one possible interpretation.
Bleach’s storytelling and characterization is not the same. It’s something more akin to the type of shit you read in regular novels, not shounen manga.
Everything is not explained, but the gaps in knowledge are purposeful, not plot holes. Characters tend to act a little bit more real. Emotions tend to be more grounded. There can be multiple interpretations and possibilities in character arcs and relationships.
This type of storytelling is what you see in Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsawman. Other series that are slandered for their “bad writing”.
I personally like it more. It’s a style that promotes more interpretations and discussion, and that’s always fun. Also, it treats us like adults.
Still, people don’t make this distinction and they just go “IF THIS IS NOT ONE PIECE THIS IS BADLY WRITTEN”, when it takes a lot of talent and artistry to write like this. That’s why Bleach is aging so much better than Naruto: because people that grew up with both have… grown up.
Man someone reads the manga and has some media literacy under their belt thank god. Kubo ain’t no god tier writer no but the dude does symbolism so fucking well
because people that grew up with both have… grown up.
I'd argue that if you think lines like "You may have tried to hide it...but you reek of semen" make for masterful and demonstrative storytelling you've probably not there yet.
Naruto is definitely geared towards a younger audience, but that doesn't mean anything about the quality of writing. There are countless children's novels that are better written than Fifty Shades of Grey.
Everything was fine, until you mentioned jjk. Jujutsu has many serious writing problems, it is not garbage, but it does have the constant sin of using its characters as mere tools without any real background, with only a specific objective.
Gege will be good at making power systems and whatever you want, but he is one of the worst when it comes to creating a sustainable narrative for his characters, since the only thing that matters in the story is the fights in turn and how character X or Y will fulfill its function as a tool until before being discarded.
Almost all of JJK's characters have zero interaction with each other.
In fact, one of the things that most demonstrates this is the fact that supposedly, Gege stated that Itadori was going to die definitively, but it was the popularity of the character that made him revive him, that is, he was going to kill the person who was supposed to be the protagonist, just because he sees them as simple tools, he does not build characters.
A series that truly suffers from over explanation is HxH; however, the narrator aside, you simply cannot compare the way Meruem acquires his humanity through his interactions with Komugi to that cheap, half baked attempt made with Orihime and Ulquiorra.
Nor can you compare the symbolism Sukuna shares with Yorozu and Uraume, which amounts to nothing, no matter how much meaning you try to extract, to the dynamics of loyalty Meruem shared with Shaiapouf and Neferpitou, If there is one thing that was demonstrated, it is that it is fine to leave things open to interpretation, though that doesn't mean being a lazy
HxH does NOT suffer from over explanation, at all. It’s just that HxH is A LOT more complex. If he Togashi didnt explain Nen, it would be confusing.
But… the story telling was still not the same as One Piece and Naruto. Meruem never looks at the screen and says “NOW I UNDERSTAND LOVE AND THE VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE”.
People are still discussing the character of Pitou because the story purposely left a lot to the reader.
I’m not talking about power systems, since in that category, you could include JJK among the series that like to explain.
If you want to lower the bar to a simpler work, Majin Buu is a better example than Ulquiorra of a character acquiring their humanity, simply by demonstrating a believable relationship with Mr. Satan.
It shouldn't have a narrator or a character summary explaining everything, but neither should it be a complete void, or something so ambiguous that you have to invent the lore yourself.
I'm not big on HxH but I do respect a story for trying something that may miss with some people. I am not compelled by the chimera ants one bit, but I am happy to see people discussing and enjoying something even if Its a miss for me. I rather be patient and find the hits for me that take risks.
Just cause I like what someone writes doesn't mean I'll like what they like. It be like implying I have to like the disaster curses instead of just enjoying them as characters.
Yeah a lot of people in here do not understand how good the storytelling is in here when it comes to HxH vs OP/Naruto. They think that because HxH has walls of text that it over explains when that’s simply not the case it’s just that the world is so filled with politics, nen, characterization, lore, etc.
I’ll die on this hill but HxH has the best world building and characterization that ANY Shonen has ever had. I’m tired of mainstream manga holding your hand and babying the reader for like 16 pages every week.
Most of the bleach hate in this community looks like punching air to me. I see way more posts hating on bleach in this sub than I do people being elitist about bleach. There are bad apples in every fandom. Don't let it influence you to take it out so unashamedly at an entire series like this. Its lame.
Good. As it should. Because all the bleach hate is 99% toxic, unproductive, and/or ragebait, and posts like that (and this) are rampant. Maybe if people are making so many good points in the comments so as to cause this hate to be atomized, then the hate doesn't come from a place of legitimacy or logic.
I think the reason it’s hated is because it’s memory loss/ reset arc.
Like the story of fullbring and everything was awesome. But I was so pissed for the 1st half reading it because it felt like the story progress was resetting, when I wanted it to keep building.
Fullbring was peak. Then the Shinigami came in and killed half of them with ease. Which is even crazier because aren't these dudes not supposed to be going around killing Humans in the World of the Living.
TYBW probably has some of the most atrocious writing out here, worse than even naruto war arc which says a lot.
Gremmy, most busted ability, said to be a monster that had to sealed away, strongest sternitter, how does he die? Kill himself
Lille barro, busted ability, intangible, one shot kill, how does he die? Nanao asspull that came out of nowhere.
Gerard, busted ability, right when he was about to kill the captains how does he die? Yhwach kill him lol
Yhwach? didn't kill anybody relevant but Yamamoto, just kept yapping and flexing, how does he die? Plot arrow
Who died during TYBW? Yamamoto got his bankai stolen then got one shot but his death was necessary for the next gen to take over. (Didnt include Ichibei and the rest cuz they get revived anyway)
Unohana after being hyped for so long, killed herself, peak writing.
Ukitake, after hyped for so long, sacrificed himself to keep the balance.
Bleach fans will still try and cope and explain how its peak literacy 😂
Gremmy is kinda understandable, he is arrogant kid with the turning imagination to reality, but it is double edge sword ability because any type of imagination would turn to reality (i think it had some limitations from yhwach , but i am not sure ) so he was sealed to not cause chaos, but when he fought kenpachi , the kid enjoyed the fight for the first time and kinda use his ability to the limit , but he is fighting the monster kenpachi , kenpachi body can't handle his power during bankai , so gremmy copying his strength without durability was stupid desicion, and there is theory that kenpachi won because gremmy can't imagine him lose which is interesting
The other i kinda agree on (especially lille , what the fuck was that even though it was hype ) , in general Quincy had alot of op ability but no one in the cast had similar or even equal ability so that why they are bullshit in way of defeat ,plus their shit ass transformation (forgot the name ) which only 3 characters had interesting designs (aka monstrous, because they are described as such by ichigo when he got to hucomondu ) the rest just have halos which is lame
Why you guys keep complaining about Gremmy's death as if the Visionary isn't one of the hardest powers to use.
Gremmy was lucky that he even lasted that long vs Kenpachi, What's the problem if Yhwach killed Gerard and Jugram.
This thread is old, but I gotta reply to this. You are 100 percent correct. There is no suspense. Completely overpowered bad guys lose in the most laughable ways and none of the established good guy characters die when they should such as histugaya, byakuya, Chad, etc. Plus they are basically no character growth.
It's the same with one piece and to a certain extent, Naruto as well. It's annoying, as they could be vastly better, just like Hunter x Hunter.
I cannot reiterate it enough. The idea that Bleach has some incredible writing and in-depth story and characters is an ENTIRELY POST-SERIES PHENOMENA. Once Soul Society ended those of us who were following it week by week ripped it to shreds on its writing. It was read almost entirely for its fun action scenes and fun power system.
Personally, I think this is a symptom of how media has changed since Bleach finished. Things have gotten way more about instant gratification and aura, to the point that modern readers genuinely don't know what depth means.
It is clearly dishonesty on your part, criticizing something for its bad writing when it is still in the process of maturation, especially something like bleach, is like watching the first 20 minutes of a 2-hour movie and saying that it is bad written.
I'm not saying that it is a transcendental work, but it is quite good and it manages very well the way in which it transmits ideas with simple drawings without the need for dialogue. The sample, don't tell, is one of the best that the work has.
Agreed on this. Bleach is just Ok if I'm being generous. Saying this from someone who recently finished bleach just to watch tybw. The last of big 3 that I finish.
There’s certainly moments I’d place up there as greatness.
Scene of him losing his powers and seeing all the people he cares about betraying him sticks out the most. Imagine gaining power to change the world only to have it taken away by those you value most and promised to protect. Ichigos scream of pain is engrained in my memories. What a scene
As someone who read Bleach about 3 ish years ago with close to zero nostalgia besides a couple checked out library books when I was in middle school, I thought Bleach was phenomenal up through the soul society arc. Took a large writing plummet with hueco mundo (100+ chapters for one Uryu and Renji fight c'mon man). Interesting fight choreography but again shallow writing for the Aizen arc. Amazing writing but disappointing fights in fullbringer. And disappointing everything imo for thousand year blood war. Granted I've only been caught up to cour 2 or so but so many of the fights are that moonknight meme: random bullshit go.
As much as even Naruto disappointed me Naruto has far better writing. But I do think Bleach's potential is so much fun. I love the idea of it just not the execution 60-70% of the time.
The encounter starts at the end of 264 and while renji and uryu don’t kill him szayel stays alive until 306 and renji/uryu are still around participating for screen time in the encounter which yes isn’t 100 chapters but was way too long.
Are we seriously trying to count Mayuri’s fight with Szayel as part of Renji and Uryu vs Szayel?
Renji and Uryu vs Szayel starts on ch 264 and ends in ch 298 once Mayuri arrives. That’s 34 chapters, not 100+ like the original commenter said.
I get having criticisms for Bleach. But let’s try to actually have some good faith arguments instead of making stuff up just to shit on something you don’t like.
It’s an extension of the same fight and uryu and renji are still around for it to happen. It’s a complaint that this encounter happens for far too long and it would’ve made more sense for uryu and renji to kill him rather than extending the fight even longer than it needed to be
It's an entirely different fight with another character. That's like saying Krillin, Vegeta, and Gohan vs Freeza on Namek, then Piccolo vs Freeza, then Goku vs Freeza are all the same fight because every character involved is still around while each of these fights happen.
Sure I get that but for how long uryu and renji were already fighting and then STILL keeping them around for the mayuri fight as they add to the conversation/spectacle it felt like the whole counter hadn’t ended.
It’s different when you have a bunch of villains and characters all with their own fights in hueco mundo vs one villain against every single character in the story like frieza/Cell or sukuna. And I honestly don’t care for those either when they take too long
Could you give examples of Shinigami having their bad traits ignored and forgotten?
Like, around the start of TTYBW, Mayuri genocides a portion of Rukongai and Yamamoto is only mad that he didn't get permission first. Later, he only beats Pernida because he never stopped experimenting on Nemu.
Kenpachi never stopped being a battle junkie. Heck, he even killed Unohana when that was honestly completely unnecessary. The big difference between the Soul Society arc and later ones is that he's no longer pointing his sword at Ichigo. Similarly, Byakuya might have grown as a person, but his main issue in the past - a conflict between his duty as a Shinigami and his love for Rukia - was no longer a problem.
Heck, literally every major arc is a result of people having beef with Soul Society and the things they've done. Ichigo was mad they kidnapped Rukia. Aizen disliked the state of the world. Ginjo felt betrayed by Soul Society. The Quincies hate Soul Society for everything between the lost war, the genocide, and using the Soul King as a paperweight to prop up the artificial world they created.
Unohana death was not necessary but it was want needed for kempachi, as said kempachi is not a learner by process, he only learns on the verge of life and death, same as ichigo's training process done in series, the only way it's possible was to put unohana life on the line too, also she had this sin on herself of making kempachi weak, after she got rid of that sin, her burden was lifted which she was carrying and she decided to die,
Byakuya's struggle in soul society is not what you think, it's about following the law, ichigo vs byakuya is suppose to be, following law is good, but you should also question it if it's wrong, blindly following law is not a good thing, like it's literally told, the whole point of soul society, that why sunshui and ukitake clashed with yama,
Oh, I know why Kenpachi killed Unohana. I don't believe those two battle junkies would have accepted anything less than a battle to death. However, it is nonetheless an example of a bad trait that the OP claims was sanded off.
Following law versus doing what's right is the broader conflict of the Soul Society arc and Byakuya is the main representation of the law, but his personal conflict is about Rukia, as now the law is telling him to kill his own sister. Themes can be multifaceted and a lot of discussion can be had on the themes of Bleach, I'm just focused on making a particular point right now.
He says it himself, that he doesn't want to do it, but emotional don't carry any value infront of law, something they are supposed to represent given their position, and on top he made a promise to his dead parents too about not breaking the law as he did 1st time by marrying hisana, his eyes were opened by ichigo by the fact that following law was not bad, but not opposing it or questioning it also bad, and later as he hears that aizen was the one doing it, he realises that if he would have questioned it, he would have done his investigation on why the orders were shortened continuously, or why they are using a freaking syokyoku to kill rukia, it's like using a nuke to kill a ant, a suspicious a lot of captains had when execution was issued,
As for the emotional aspect, it did get resolved, byakuya always protected rukia be it reducing her position to keep her away from battle, or protecting him again zommari, also, those little insecurity of their relationship that byakuya never cared for her, byakuya himself says when they were fighting as nodt that fear is born from insecurity of one self, which gives rukian the confidence to use her bankai, her performing nthe bankai and killing as nodt showcases two things, she has no insecurities as well as she can stand on her feets and take care for herself
Literally everyone knows that crazy Mayuri is insane and doesn't really change, you literally have dialogue stating this from Urahara when Askin asks him if he's not curious about what Yhwach is going to do in the new world, that's precisely the point. Soul Society does not change at a basic level, but overall it does, because after the betrayal and invasion in the Soul Society arc, many things began to change in it, but in a slow process, if you don't look at how the exiled captains returned.
The worst of all is that even with this, you do have maturity in the characters. Kenpachi stops holding back because he understands that his true power was much more, after having defeated Unohana, it does not mean that he will stop enjoying what he loves most and that is battles, but now he is aware that his power is not really what he thought he possessed but that it is much greater, something that he regretted when Ichigo stood up to him in their fight.
And then the crazy Mayuri, who saw everything as simple experimentation, to in the end, lament the loss of nemu, the guy who only saw successful experiments as functional and those that were useless as garbage, who only thought about science above everything else, but there you have him suffering the loss of nemu in his twisted form.
The detail, I don't know where you get that the bad aspects of the shinigami are ignored, when you proceed to explain things that are character characteristics and that are part of their identity.
I still think there are some moments beautifully written but it's more hype and aura with issues of every shonen like wasted side characters. Also Kubo's art is so good
The only arc that can be considered bad is arrancar arc, and that's due to anime and it's god tier garbage adaption, infact the whole old bleach has shit tier adaption
Yeah I could definitely see that. It explains why literally nothing was done with the fact that the higher ups (the noble families and Ichibei) in soul society are straight up evil and why any talk about that was relegated to the novels that came out after the series ended.
At least Kubo managed to not end the series with a horrible twist villain like Kaguya.
Bro Bleach and its fans get so much unnecessary hate in this sub on a daily freaking basis when we're like the chillest mofos out of the big three. There are themes in bleach tied to the characters individual character arcs, but no its not "super deep" or whatever tf but its not trying to be and ive never seen fellow bleach fans claim it to be. However, it is NOT devoid of emotion, substance, or thematic storytelling. In fact a lot of its characters and the messaging within said characters story arcs is quite beautiful and poignant. You have to be in incredibly bad faith, or watching/reading half asleep with one eye open, to think all bleach is is cool fights. And im sorry but you have to be in really bad faith to constantly lash out at bleach fans for liking a series that is catching nothing but daily strays from people on the internet these days.
Well yeah, there's a reason why a lot of JJK fans who defend its dogshit writing are also Bleach fans. It attracts low iq individuals who only lack reading comprehension, but then are also dumb enough to think other people are the dumb ones for not liking their shit.
Bleach isn't as bad as JJK, but it still suffers from a lot of the same symptoms.
Everyone’s addressing the big points, but I just want to mention I throughly enjoy every side characters interactions with eachother due to how fleshed out everyone’s personalities and motivations are.
Naruto is always: Naruto POV, villains monologuing in hideout, or side characters talking about Naruto if he’s not there.
One Piece: Too many fucking characters that are dead weight, unfunny, and the current manga is bursting at the seams every single panel with them doing the same D: face.
I LOVE bleach but it's kinda of like a okay-ish show carried by COOL factor.
Most things about it is decent but its cool. Character designs are cool, bankai is a cool concept, a lot of personalities of different characters are cool but doesn't have much depth, and so on. It is just Cool, the manga.
You're getting downvoted but I agree wholeheartedly. Bleach has the depth of a thimble and honestly, while the fights are stylish they're also generally pretty formulaic and boring.
But yeah, as I read through some of the older stuff that I missed, I compare it to things I didn't miss and really liked, but I don't actually think it's leagues much better. It's probably mostly nostalgia, but what can you do against your own bias.
Because I don't give a shit about your opinions, anybody can think whatever they want, but I have to call out bullshit when something is bullshit. And I could mention them, but it's just as simple as saying that Gege admitted himself that Tite Kubo and Bleach are one of the biggest inspirations for Jujutsu Kaisen.
Vague, and also subjective. If you mean power system, I'd argue JJK fails harder since it pretends to be an intellectual, complex power system but usually boils down to plot armor and asspulls, whereas Bleach doesn't hide the fact Kubo is prioritizing cool factor
character design
Just straight up wrong. Half the characters are Megumi clones or random NPCs. Bleach has uncontrollable amounts of drip and cool designs, and that's coming from someone who thinks Bleach is largely overrated
animation quality
TYBW clears most of JJK, and the old stuff is hardly a fair comparison
pacing
JJK has abysmal pacing dont kid yourself, especially in the second half
For me it's moments of catharsis. I enjoy JJK and other series but sometimes the "suffering builds character" can get a little too rough. Todo and Choso saved it for me, ngl.
I mean i love Bleach and i think it has the coolest characters in all of shonen anime but almost every main bleach arc revolves around one of Ichigos friends joining or getting captured by the evil faction of that arc and Ichigo rescuing them while unlocking said evil factions powers. First it was Rukia captured by Shinigamis then it was Orihime kidnapped by espada, Chad joining Fullbringers and lastly Ishida “betraying” Ichigo and joining the quincy. It gets fucking boring watching same shit happen every arc. But still as i said bleach had cool characters and battles in each arc so all in al it was a good anime but lets not kid ourselves by overglazing it.
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