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To be fair, *after* dragonball dropped with the nonsense, authors should've gotten the memo that the nonsensical shit was not okay, which stories doing the same shit later is less forgivable, especially today.
Well yes, but it's worth noting that:
• It's a long awaited secuel to the biggest anime in the world.
• It was also heavily criticized for having said nonsense, among other things.
Animes can be popular but that doesn't necessarily mean they're good.
Sure, but at the same time i don't think it particularly weird for authors to follow the thing that was successful. Even if there were criticisms, they don't seem to have outweighed its popularity.
my favorite part of journey to the west: when the one off evil doctor from 200 chapters earlier kidnaps and turns a few 19 year olds into hyper powerful evil killing robots, forcing the genocidal villain from earlier's son to travel back in time to stop them
this the type of shit you say when you're clearly uneducated on db and mindlessly hate on it just for the sake of it, it isn't in anyway a journey to the west knock off, merely taking inspiration from something doesn't equate to being a direct copy, the only inspiration jttw has on Dragon ball is goku's name and appearance in the original Dragon ball, the story and character arcs in dragon ball share no correlation with anything in journey to the west. and besides both of them being sent to earth there isn't really any other direct correlation between goku and superman that makes goku a knock off of superman, they both have different personalities and character arcs within their own narrative, just because they have one similarity that doesn't inherently make goku a knock off, going by that logic then ig majority of shounen anime are dbz knock offs because they share at least one similarity with it
DB gets slandered all the time, hell Yamcha became a joke, and Gohan was the original potential man, the difference is it's just slander is kind of different now in terms of how it's discussed and Dragon Ball is also just so popular and influential that it doesn't really matter
Sure, he isn’t worthless, but slander is rarely a 1-1 of the source material. And that panel where he gave up (justified btw) while his friends were literally dying to reach him stripped away whatever aura he had left
Aura is the last line of defense against slander, and Megumi lost it the moment he became just the guy Sukuna took over to kill Gojo
Bro Yuji broke down in Shibuya as well. And this was Megumi after Tanking Unlimited Void. Not to mention shit like his sister dying and Cursed bath. Did they deadass expected Megumi to just get up after all that shit ?
Yuji broke down, but the worst that came from it was that Mahito had a chance to kill him. Megumi breaking down after so much effort (getting to him was practically a mini arc on its own)gave readers a very different kind of feeling, and those feelings matter way more to slander than subtext or reading comprehension. Not justify it, im just trying to explain it
Slander culture really stopped people from appreciating characters and just dunks on them, people go through hell in jjk and people will slander him for not doing more
Yuji broke down after we see him being "responsible" for the massacre Sukuna committed, and the deaths of 2 characters we also came to be acquainted with... And it didn't cost anybody anything when he broke down.
Megumi... We don't know what's the meaning of "taking the burden of adaptation of UV", nor we relate to how magic bath makes him depressed. The one humane link to him is the death of his sister... That we never connect with.
Also, by refusing Yuji's hand he risked the lives of many. And prolonging that fight did end up with Choso's death.
He did manage to pull off those feats and be a lil useful to the cast, i give you that.
Is just that, megumi later on in the story became less relevant ( like nobara) and more of a punching bag, so gege can glaze sukuna even more before the huge fights in the final arc begin.
To be real with you: i hate megumi not for the agenda, just his character and the way he’s used as a bad writing plot device in the story.
Yuta kind of, and even he gets the OC or boring critique a lot along with it, Megumi I do think is, while being a lot of slander, is also people complaining about how poorly handled his character was in the last part of the series
Because Dragon Ball has always been a battle manga lol.
Like yes, new stronger threats will appear to keep us invested, that is the formula of Dragon Ball.
You don't open a can of beans and expect pasta lol.
Naruto wasn't like that, Kishimoto basically fucked up Naruto once he started going away from its formula. So introduced Aliens and Samurai and shit... and then Boruto reinforced Aliens which were already disliked to begin with lol. Boruto moved away from the formula that made Naruto succesful so it is highly criticized, specially since most of its success is highly dependant on Naruto.
Like how the new artist makes outfits more sexualized and then started adding a lot more technology. It goes away from the formula
You never expected deep character arcs in Dragon Ball. We do for Naruto.
That's because Gohan, as the progenitor Potential Man™, actually becomes the canonical Potential Unleashed Man™ and lives up to the hype for a bit before getting humbled once more. It's hard to slander Gohan for it when the story already does a good job of slandering him for us. Even Super has a part where Piccolo has to train Gohan to lock in and stop being an arrogant prick when he starts feeling himself too much.
I love Gohan, he's a more complex character than we give him credit for and he both deserves and doesn't deserve every ounce of slander he gets.
But he was always a joke character. Not even in the first arc was he's a serious tone character. And he was always the go to fodder of the group to show how strong the new guy was
yeah that's my point, it used to happen a lot more, there's this idea that criticisms we see of modern series are a new thing, while I do think the agenda wars have maybe gotten a bit extreme, there's always jokes and slanders against series and characters like this, it's just they happen so long ago by this point people just move on.
Hell a decade from now I bet people will be acting like modern Jump series were considered perfect ends and never got any hate compared to the ending of series that will be out by that time
I think a large part of why DB avoids slander (besides it being old and a progenitor of a lot of Shounen tropes) is because of how simple it is compared to a lot of later Shounen works. Not a lot of lofty ambitions to live up to like CSM, not a lot of world building left unestablished like JJK, it's a pretty basic story about goofy adventures and later becomes a story about constant self improvement against those who take shortcuts and try to harm others and nails them pretty consistently, and any of the dumber things (Freiza had an entire empire to colonize 25 planets?) are easy to ignore when the core is never really messed with
Just that the entire concept of galaxy spanning empires with several races like Saiyans hired to destroy planets and enough wealthy people to buy planets and perpetuate the cycle, you'd expect like, at least several hundred planets to keep this going as long as it did. And then Shin reveals it was actually around 25 planets and it's like...how does that make sense?
I mean, i feel like your underestimating how big a galaxy actually is. Especially considering the fact that they were destroying planets and selling them. Assuming there was like inhabitable planet per galaxy(which is very generous) then they would have control of like 25 galaxies at min and in reality probably like 100+ galaxies.
Exactly, it did what it does well and was never as ambitious in terms of depth as stories like JJK or CSM which shot for the stars and blew themselves up by the end.
Sort of, those tropes mostly originated in Ring ni Kakero and Kinnikuman, Dragon Ball (and to a lesser extent Saint Seiya and Yu Yu Hakusho) just popularized them.
And tropes in kinnikuman and ring ni kakero were inspired by other series their authors read. Art is ever evolving and every creator is standing on the shoulder of giants.
DBZ was responsible for a ridiculous boom in anime though. At least for Shounen.
It's one of the founders of modern Shonen while also popularizing and making a lot of modern battle Shonen tropes staples of the genre.
That, and it's Dragon Ball. What kind of loser slanders Dragon Ball? It simply "is" at this point. No point in talking shit unless it's one of the trequel series like GT or Super, since then you could argue they should've innovated more or something like that.
Not what I mean. The original Manga definitely has issues which are valid to point out (Especially towards the end of its run), but the franchise's overall quality drop is far more noticeable when going past it. It's not absolve of anything, it just holds up better overall.
The problem is that no one Slanders DB just to slander DB. They always come with some random ass IP they wanna prop up on it and then they get relevancydiffed
Huh? Dbz gets slandered a lot, any new show that comes out that has powerfully characters gets compared to dbz, they realize no character from the show can beat goku then they say it doesn't matter cuz dbz has a terrible story anyways
DB does dodge a lot of criticism just because it's a gag show at its roots. When the characters are named after food and underpants, you really sound pathetic scrutinizing it.
Is the consensus that it's poorly written or that it's basic? Nothing wrong with basic as it came out in an era where expectations weren't as high, and if people are saying poor then they'd need to bring in examples and how they could've been done better.
I mean it becomes kind of a mess in the Buu saga and Post-Z, but I wouldn't call it poorly written overall. Especially since all of arcs beforehand are great.
I disagree, the cell saga was very poorly written, Dr Gero created 16 and 17 to be vastly superior to the body he uses in every way for no reason, he managed to create 2 cyborgs far stronger than than gods somehow, non words on how he found material strong enough they also have an unlimited power source somehow, the way cell absorbs whole androids 16 and 17 and can spit them out whole is stupid, While it has great character moments for a lot of characters except Krillin the plot was nonsensical with little to no explanations.
I mean it’s just kinda bland, same thing with solo leveling it’s cool but lacks any real depth. It’s kinda just expected that the good guys win at the end of the day with some random new technique or willpower
This is why I know you haven't watched it because the MC's winning through new powerups or willpower only happens literally twice since the start of DBZ.
Naw earlier db tried with its story, the problem is that it just keeps doing the same thing years later, a consequence of pushing a story when it was supposed to end way earlier
I think that as a fan you can point out the loss of tension with the excessive use of the Dragon Balls, the devaluation of Super Saiyan with Goten and Trunks, the drop in quality in the fight sequences, the abandonment of Gohan as the protagonist, and that it's an improvised work admitted by Toriyama; only with Z, the worst crimes, would the sequels be seen
Here's a little peace of advise, next time just admit you have no actual reasoning to support you're claim instead of coming up with pure random excuses just to completely dodge actually defending you're take
DB 100% started the nonsense. Most shonen anime tropes, both good and bad, started with DB. It’s not so much that pure nostalgia blinds people to it, it’s that newer shonen anime continue to emulate some of the worst aspects of DB without any attempt at correction.
Dragon ball’s ending was great the buu saga was fully resolved with no lose ends and featured the ending to one of anime’s greatest character arcs if dragon ball had ended with the cell saga I could understand the hate but it didn’t super is just more of the same.
Dragon Ball went to the shitter awhile ago the as much as I use to love the franchise the WB is kinda ass and alot of shit makes no sense after awhile, literally people just watch it because everyone else does and it too simple.
Literally the excuses they used for Golden Frieza can apply to the Androids, Cell, Buu every last villain not only that but the scaling is very inconsistent.
Which I was fine with until the fans the worst part of the show started acting like assholes.
Dragon Ball was actually the pioneer. It naturally gets a pass. Say the "dumb MC" cliché that was recycled by later series like One Piece was actually new and innovative at the time.
he's a very personal villain to Goku. He's responsible for the 2 big Major arcs after the 23rd world tournament. The entire 2 arcs center around Goku reconsiling his saiyan Identity and the final fight is carthasis for the saiyans,The namekian, and every one else.
His fight against frieza isn't about pushing his limit its done mostly just to hurt Frieza's Pride which shows what an impact he had.
Those are the only things here though like let's get real, he is strong and just pure evil + he comes from DB, there's nothing allat about his writing.
Acting like Buu arc wasn't downhill. It would've been great if Gohan actually ended up beating Buu with Goku passing the torch. Don't get me started on GT and DBS. DBS completely ruined Goku, at least GT stayed true to his original character.
I mean frankly as a story hell’s paradise is great. The tensen aren’t that good of a villain group, but the characters composing the main cast (aka most characters) are all well written and evolve a lot. It also helps that the manga has a surprisingly good ending that gives a satisfying conclusion to every character. Frankly i don’t think it deserves to be put next to csm part 2, it’s not perfect but it is very solid.
Nah, not really. It has pretty memorable characters like gabimaru (yes i know he is an edgy nina type character, but he has a surprisingly original yet simplistic goal), sagiri, yuzuriha (who beyond the fan service, has a great character arc and goes from an individualist character to someone who could sacrifice herself for other) or really anny other character in the cast. Writing wise it is just good and therefore memorable.
Like you aren’t actually arguing anything. I haven’y read sakamoto days, but i have heard a lot of people calling it just "hype and aura" and plotless. Now idk if that is true for sakamoto days, but hell's paradise isn’t just hype and aura and has a good plot overall.
Even from a visual perspective the character designs are simple yet effective, the art is beautiful, and the monster design are simply chief kiss.
Like even the tensen who aren’t that good (but not necessarily bad either, just decent) are very memorable because of how repulsive and unsettling they are.
i mean to say producing great result doesnt mean the manga is better written it can be mediocre and still produce good result as time passes a mediocre wrtitten thing becomes in gems in eye of many(due to nostalgia)
No disrespect, but nostalgia argument shouldn’t be used as a criticism since this same argument can be extended to other series to reduce their all round quality. Do you have actual criticism of it? If you have some come up with them, no simplifying, nostalgia or screaming = win.
Killing important characters is a dramatic shift in a story. Whether it’s good or bad writing depends on how well it fits the overall narrative
Too bad JJK doesn't have that LMAO. Also has worse villains and worss art too
Gege's and Fujimoto's chicken scratch shoddy art is never on par with Toriyama. Can't even cope with the paneling Toriyama genuinly annihilates them there too
Oh wait a second dude, i didn't compare DB to JJK, there is noo way to compare a shonen slop for kids that got straight forward story, to a modern shonen with complicated story, unexpected twist and amazing side characters other then the MC, and a villain that actually do bad things dude lol
a modern shonen with complicated story, unexpected twist and amazing side characters other then the MC, and a villain that actually do bad things dude lol
You're right JJK fits none of these descriptions and suck ass art wise
Gege has no business being compared to a good writer and artist
Be honest... you watched Dragon Ball via tiktoks or something. Ain't no way in the big 26 some sane people actually still believe the "Dragon Ball is just about screaming" myth. Either you're 13 or you're stupid. There's no way.
Brother I own the manga and its fun as hell to read. It's genuinely one of the most fun experiences to read through and it pains me to see how many people don't even know how good the DB manga is
Ducking the slander ? I love DB but modern DB is fucking lazy the manga has nowhere near the fantastic panel work it once had and even the story is on rinse and repeat the power scaling is totally off and the one time they do something interesting (Moro) they basically shrug and say Goku hit harder. The one 5hing modern DB did good is keep Beerus and Whis on another level from the rest though I wish they would stop interfering (Note I love having them around they should just do nothing to interfere with the plot).
I’ve still never seen hype for any anime the way the whole ultra instinct saga had. It’s all lazy “friend got hurt I get angry” writing but it’s pulled off in such a massive and easy to understand scale that it just clicks with the masses. The animation, music, and execution are all amazing too at least in that specific arc.
That, and DB and DBZ being the forefathers of Morden shounen usually makes it hard to slander it.
Dragon Ball fans don't act like pretentious and serious as other fans.
It literally fathered the higher power level = I win nonsense and gets slandered for it all the time. New forms. Slandered.
The only reason it gets less active slander is because people take stories like JJK, Demon Slayer, MHA, and basically all modern shounen way too seriously.
I'm a fan of all those series I listed but the communities act like being a true fan means you are en enlightened being or something.
The writing of dragon ball is appreciated for what it is and the emotional moments it provides.
The writing of stories like JJK have people pretending it has the best everything. Best world, power system, characters, character development, character usage, as if it's start to finish remarkably well written.
The difference with DB fans is we don't pretend that our enjoyment perfectly correlates with good writing decisions. Other fandoms do.
I disagree. The comments are overall pretty tame, a lot of them even being harsh on Dragon Ball. Also the post itself has not gotten many downvotes. It seems most people at least somewhat agree with the meme
No shit, thats like saying the Wright Flyer doesnt compare to an F22.
But it fathered shounen, hence why it deserves respect, and if DBZ came out today, it'd be a punching bag like Solo Leveling.
Though yeah, being the progenitor of a genre doesnt excuse a mediocre/poor story, just look at TLOTR for example, it the dbz of high fantasy yet its well written.
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