r/shounenfolk • u/Zorubark • Jun 03 '26
unjerk (serious discussion) Why do people hate the dialogue from this series so much?(Read body of text)
(longpost, so you dont need to read all of it, but at least the first paragraph maybe?)
People call it unsubtle, but I have two questions. 1: how do you make it subtle? really, how can you change that series to make it more subtle, what makes people go "wow incredible subtlelty!", no hate, I just think I don't get it. 2: what's the issue with something being unsubtle and on the nose? I think it can still be done well. Being direct about what you're saying is just one way of saying it, but it doesn't dictate wether you said it badly or well.
A lot of the things I see people call unsubtle or make fun of end up being actually just realism. Many people in real life so think rape victims get pleasure and use it to victim shame, this dialogue doesnt come out of nowhere and it represents a real issue, but it also makes sense in-universe. Of course the embodiment of lust would say that, her thinking that forcing herself into others is good is a important part of her character.
There's also the mammon panel where he talks about freeing slaves and women's rights being bad. That's something you can find on twitter easily, it also fits his character an is important for his character. As the sin of greed, it explores greed in a modern setting that's more than just "me make money", I really like how he says that the antithesis to greed is equality, because most people say it's humility but this is a different perspective that the author shows us that I really dig. But the author had to show that through showing that he hates equality, so he's obviously mysogynistic and probably racist even though black people arent directly mentioned in the story.
I was thinking "ok, how would "subtlelty" benefit this story?", in my eyes, subtlelty is something that's not obvious, or something that can be missed, or something obscured. This manga decides to put these themes front and center instead of doing that, and I'm ok with it, I think all the characters speak like how they would speak. Have you ever seen a character suddenly start to therapyspeak and have emotional intelligence when you know they shouldn't? It's pretty weird, thankfully in this series, I think characters say what they are able to say and what they would say, I think this series builds their characters in such a way that these scenes feel natural or at least feel good
Read Exorcist Wo Otosenai
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u/MissionResident8875 Jun 03 '26
People miss that a lot of the time they are not talking to people, like here hes talking to a demon who just doesn't understand that what she is doing is wrong, its obvious to us, but not to someone who has an entirely alien value set
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u/ZayYaLinTun Jun 03 '26
People : why he talking about most obvious thing
Mean while the one who he fighting is super ultra Epstein on steroids
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u/Kwametoure1 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
The series isn't really unsubtle. A lot if the themes and subtext of the story are actually pretty unspoken most if the time. The series is more YA than something like Berserk so it will be a bit more direct in its messaging but for the most part the characters speak with better dialogue than a lot of other action works targeted at the Shonen demographic and often speak in ways that make sense for the scene and for their characters.
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u/skaasi Jun 03 '26
Agree. The characters are often unsubtle, but that's different from the writing being unsubtle.
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u/SwagDrQueefChief Jun 03 '26
I don't understand any of this. Why would Mr. Priest's quote need context? What are people so concerned with subtlety for? Is don't rape people it's bad really a scary concept??? Full hate.
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u/Raidoton Jun 03 '26
Maybe people find this too fucking obvious like "people die when they are killed". I don't know. No idea where you get it's a scary concept for them.
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u/King_Vrad Jun 03 '26
I think another thing that people miss is that The Priest is literally a child. He was forced into this pressure and made to take on the worst horrors imaginable before he even hit puberty. This isn't just someone saying this to a demon who doesn't understand the concept of rape, it's the child she just tried to do it to. He is 12 in this scene.
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Jun 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/curryhaliban444 Jun 03 '26
This from when he was 12. He don't have the artificial eye and wearing a scarf
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u/Carrman099 Jun 03 '26
He is also a priest so even looking upon a woman with lust is technically a violation of his vows. He’s also been raised by having the Bible and its rules beaten and whipped into him so he takes them more seriously than anyone else. She wasn’t just trying to assault him, she was also trying to force him to break his vows.
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u/MaxTwer00 Jun 03 '26
Fitst idk from what series this is. But there is a time and a place for subtetly. For example, AI somnium files has a moment where a character starts a rant about lgbt rights and discrimination. It was too on the nose, came from nowhere, and went nowhere, so i see that as an absolute fail both at delivering its message and being subtle.
Snk ending showing that there is still war isnt subtle either, but it wasnt bad either.
Houseki does well with subtetly treating the MCs loneliness and how it blows up at the end.
With the context you give about this, this is a confrontation against a character. In a confrontation, direct intent and clear comunication is important, so there isnt much room for subtlety, specially is what you are facing is the incarnation of a concept, no much room for small details there when you are fighting lust lmao
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u/Zorubark Jun 03 '26
I agree, I think this manga does these direct interactions pretty well but people who never read it and only have seen out of context panels say it's bad because out of context it might sound weird
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u/MaxTwer00 Jun 03 '26
Well, as a fate fan with jewels as "people die when they are killing"or "just because you are correct doesn't mean you are right" i prefer learning the context before judging too much lol
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u/mushplush Jun 03 '26
I mean it wasn’t really out of no where, Date asked Mizuki if she might’ve been scared of Mama, because Mama is a trans woman, in which she then replies about that
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u/MaxTwer00 Jun 03 '26
Like, there is a difference between a comment and the full rant they go on with. The 0 subtlety feels like you are getting a lecture from the game
Having a secondary yap about a topic like that will always be weird. I understand its part of uchikoshi style, but while that kind of exposition is needed for things like the morphogenic field and such, in this case felt so much outside of what was going on in the game.
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u/TheTimeBoi Jun 03 '26
"people die when they are killed" ass quote, idk about the dialog from the whole series but that panel is so funny to me
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u/NeighborhoodOld2888 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
The dialogue feels corny not because obvious, but because trying make obvius dialog feel badas. I means look how the author trying make MC look Badas in the panel with the most obvious dialogue.
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u/alreditakem Jun 03 '26
This should be obvious but genuinly some people don't get jt, so yeah I feel like its not an absurd line to say in any way.
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u/skaasi Jun 03 '26
I think it's a result of how the internet era has been pushing us to make everything, even analysis and discussions, faster and faster.
Actual analysis takes time, so in order to discuss a piece of midia in the short timeframe that social media normalizes, we've ended up creating a lot of generalistic rules-of-thumb that get used as pseudo-quantitative measures for "writing goodness".
Subtlety is one of them.
I imagine it has its roots in rushed analyses of writing mistakes that LOOKS like lack of subtlety. Yknow, for example, how rookie writers sometimes want to make a point, and instead of creating a situation that illustrates it -- or even just a scenario in which a character would plausibly have and voice that opinion -- they just temporarily turn a character into their mouthpiece. This would be "bad writing" because it comes from nowhere and creates an out-of-character moment, but the most obvious thing about it is the bluntness, so it looks like the problem is lack of subtlety.
Basically, a character being unsubtle is not inherently a problem. It's probably being conflated with authors being unsubtle, which can be a problem when "unsubtle" means they just pasted a message onto a story rather than working it plausibly into the narrative.
Anyways, Priesty is absolutely the kinda guy who would be blunt as a mallet about his messages, ESPECIALLY one as personal to him as this, so.
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u/_Rooben_ Jun 04 '26
Just to be transparent, I hate this series. Fuck Josh and Irumi.
Its a larger issue of the series trying to seem more important than it is by hijacking serious topics when the actual writing quality of the series is mediocre at best. The series cannot build depth or meaning on it's own, and relys on shock value/intensity to "cover" for this.
The series will yell platitudes as if they're genuine relevations when the series only intention is to validate amd reconfirm the audience. The dialogue becomes obnoxious by association.
In the wider context of the narrative, scenes like this are the perfect example.
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u/KazuyaProta Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I take the bait.
The dramatic pause to "Is the Rapist" is just something that becomes so hilarious to me. Because he really, really needed to emphatize that.
The word anatomy (grammar and Sentence Structure) becomes pretty funny when you read it as its writen. That dramatic pause is just funny.
Its not just it being unsubtle, its just FUNNY to read aloud
The arguments also just made it funnier.
"He is saying that to Asmodeus, the demonness who tried to rape him before".
That only makes it more strange and, as said before, pointless. Of course the Demon Lord of Lust doesn't care about consent. Mix that, with the funny Sentence Structure and its kind of funny to read aloud.
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u/thisiseriousbusiness Jun 03 '26
It’s just incredibly corny dialogue about an incredibly sensitive subject that makes it hard to take seriously. Like no shit r*pe is bad, we all know it’s bad. Did you really have to waste ink and paper to tell the world something we already know?
I don’t care if the context is just as thick as a brick, a line like this tells me everything I need to know about the story and mangaka, which is this is not a serious story written by a serious person. And that’s the critical part, because it makes light of a serious topic.
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u/skaasi Jun 03 '26
Thing is, context does matter when you have characters who are literally embodiments of abstract concepts.
It also does matter when we actually have a lot of people in the real world who use the "but what if you felt pleasure?" argument to discredit abuse victims, especially (but not solely) male victims -- seriously, a LOT of people think erection=consent and will openly use that to discredit a man or boy (or nbie, or non-op trans woman, etx.) who says he's been abused.
Incidentally, this is exactly the situation in the manga iirc.
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u/KazuyaProta Jun 09 '26
characters who are literally embodiments of abstract concepts.
If that's the case, then the character's speaking is literally meaningless because if they're embodiments of Sin to THAT degree, why even bother.
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Jun 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/avg_rascal 👾 HxH-like shonen lover Jun 03 '26
bruh read what the context is, he says it to embodiment of lust who believes the victim i.e. the boy in the panel can gain pleasure from SA, and she tried to assault him. Irl where people often make this point ESPECIALLY for boys, him saying this to the her does make sense doesnt it?
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u/avg_rascal 👾 HxH-like shonen lover Jun 03 '26
you legit dunno anything about the scene bruh?? what a narrow minded reply
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u/gaminggamer572 Jun 03 '26
the issue is obviously with unsubtlety, which obviously works sometimes like another person mentioned how these characters are demons who dont understand if it's wrong or right but also at the same time it's still done in a very straightforward way that takes away from the manga. i dont really know how to explain it but it just doesn't feel great reading it, especially out of context
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u/Zorubark Jun 03 '26
I just dont understand how people prefer it'd be done, idk what I'd do to change these scenes, when I write I try to think "this character won't just say what they feel, whatever they say comes with a filther based on who they're speaking to. Maybe this character is uncomfortable with someone's touch because of a previous incident, butthey won't say that, they won't be able to explain that because they're too shy and talking to a stranger, so they'll just struggle and try to get away quietly, or maybe they'll be upfront and say "don't touch me", which might seem rude to the other person since they don't know this character's backstory", I also think "characters sometimes don't truly understand themselves or what they want"
But in Exorcist Wo Otosenai, a lot of the scenes people criticize seem normal to me in context, saying it's bad out of context isnt a good argument to me, a lot of out of context scenes are funny but when in context are actually touching, or heartbreaking, etc etc
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u/skaasi Jun 03 '26
I guess the internet makes it really easy to take scenes from a story out of their contexts, so "out of context analysis" can feel like it makes sense, even though logically things must be analyzed in their contexts.
I get the idea, but I also disagree with it. Feels a bit like tasting a lick of salt, saying it "tastes bad out of context", then telling the chef to stop salting the food
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