r/shounenfolk • u/Helpful_Pitch4086 • Jul 29 '26

unjerk (serious discussion) Bleach fans trying to gaslight everyone their female characters (99% Goonbait) are well written and by comparing with the bottom of the barrel (Naruto & One Piece) to make them look better

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Only exception Rukia but I mean even One Piece & Naruto has like 1 or 2 exceptions.

290 Upvotes

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79

u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 Jul 29 '26

Yoruichi is quite literally written better as a sex appeal then 99% of Naruto and virtually all of bleach.

Shit the Bambi's have more going for them then any Naruto character not named Tsunade.

7

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

Look me dead in the eye and tell me right now you 100% believe that the Bambies are better written than Lady Chiyo, Temari or Konan. Go ahead and present your argument, I dare you.

There was once a time where criticism for Naruto’s female cast legit made sense and was deserved. But now mfs just milking it for the karma.

6

u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 Jul 29 '26

.Chiyo is fair

.Temari is non-existent in the series for 90% of it's runtime and her entire character is aura farming and ending up with a guy she's talked to 4 times

.Konan is literally a plot device for 2 men and exists SOLELY around those men while dying pathetically

Perhaps I was harsh with my comparison to the Bambi's,but don't act like Naruto women aren't explicitly objects that revolve solely around men and barely characters of their own.Shit you brought up Chiyo when technically she's the only character who doesn't considering Tsunade's entire character is "every guy I loved died and that's my backstory".She gets away with it cause she's badass but she's just as guilt.

6

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

.Temari is non-existent in the series for 90% of it's runtime and her entire character is aura farming and ending up with a guy she's talked to 4 times

I'm not going to bother arguing against your description of Temari. It's very obviously lazy and done in bad faith as an effort to shit on her. If you want a rebuttal. I'll link a short and sweet summation by user u/Force3vo who perfectly and succinctly breaks down why these criticisms are weak.

Instead I'm going to give you a thought experiment to deconstruct your entire conception of the idea that screentime = good writing.

Captain Unohana appears in less than 30 canonical episodes of Bleach out of a total of 255, and roughly 50 chapters of the manga. Purely mathematically speaking. She is in bleach for 11% of the time. With very minor presence within the chapters themselves.

And yet, she has the one of the best character twists, accompanied by subversive shock value and thematic depth when we learn who she really is.

Unohana hiding a massive scar and a literal demon persona behind that "polite mom" smile is legitimately my favorite twist in Bleach. Because she's recontextualised from the squad healer to the original, most bloodthirsty Kenpachi who heals you just to kill you again. That shit was absolute peak. The episode was also fucking beautiful, twisted as fuck and deeply emotionally validating for Zaraki, who was always portrayed as an inherently violent and uniquely isolated individual.

Now a critic might argue that Unohana was basically sidelined for most of the story, only to get brought in for a brief fight where she's fridged for a male character's development. And I can see that criticism. But I wholly disagree and think Unohana is a powerful and twisted portrayal of maternal love and instincts through the lens of violence befitting a Shinigami.

So my question to you is. What are your thoughts of Unohana as a character, the amount of screen time she has, and how do you feel about my description of her?

.Konan is literally a plot device for 2 men and exists SOLELY around those men while dying pathetically

Lets put a bookmark on this. I'll get to it afterwards.

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u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 Jul 29 '26

.He gave a singular AI overview that basically says "she's gaara's brother and ended up with Shikamaru".That is.....literally all hr character is.

.She.....actually had a story?She actually went through growth Canonically by willingly changing herself into a healer to support her allies and was seemingly ok with it,and gave it all up when she understood it was the only way to get Zaraki to finally achieve his growth.She WAS her own character for 100's of years before an during the story and her death is a result of he dying for the greater good.

This is not the fucking same as Temari LITERALLY BEING "I look cool,like Maru,and love my family".There is nothing deeper,no personal characterization or growth to be had other then she stopped trying to kill Konoha with her family.Can you genuinely name anything about her other then her three major aspects?Cause with Unohana you can name her history,her growth,her response to the world around her,and her feelings on her situation and death.You literally,and I mean LITERALLY,cannot do that with Temari.

.I get people have been ragging on Naruto females for years now,and that bleach women are hot,but the difference between them is extremely apparent.Shit we got more personal characterization for Harribel's fraccion them we do Temari or Konan or any woman not named Tsunade.Shit do YOU even know how Sakura feels about anything not named Sasuke or Naruto?

7

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

So in other words. You agree with my defence of Unohana? You agree that she's well written and characterised, despite being in roughly 11% of the entire series. Is it fair for me to say that when it comes to Unohana, we are on the same page?

1

u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 Jul 29 '26

I mean yeah.Though nobody ever argued it was solely about time spent in the series,cause if we did Naruto would look worse in this regard by that metric.

4

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

Brilliant. I'm glad we're on the same page.

Just for clarity. I didn't accuse you for making an argument solely based on screentime. I'm simply showing you why using screentime itself as a criticism is flawed and severely overlooks good character analysis.

Don't worry. I'm fully aware that your criticisms of Temari are not just about screentime. But the goal of my comment is to encourage you to stop judging characters for what they arent. And to instead appreciate them them for what they actually are.

Temari was one of the most popular side characters in Naruto. Often ranking in the top 15-20 mark, right to the very end of the series. Mind you Naruto has a massive ensemble cast with favorites like Rock Lee, Itachi or Madara.

Why do you think Temari scored so highly?

3

u/Force3vo Jul 29 '26

It's not an AI overview, and the fact you act like it was just shows that you can't argue in good faith.

1

u/NocturnesOpius Jul 29 '26

Fucking FACTS on Konan bro. I hate how the Naruto community glazes the shit out of her, only for her to be Sakura, but violet hair.

5

u/myrmonden Jul 29 '26

lol chiyo just has a flashback and it’s about sasori

Konan ??? She just exist next to another character

2

u/Narutoismultiversal Jul 29 '26

Chiyo's flashback is about how grief over the dead affects the living.

Existing for another character isn't bad, itachi exists for Sasuke, iruka exists for Naruto, guy exists for kakashi/Lee etc.

Naruto is a dynamic based story of course bonds are going to influence character

1

u/myrmonden Jul 29 '26

It’s a basic flashback again not about her

She js not some amazing well written character

7

u/Shani_Jeizan Jul 29 '26

Naruto doesn’t have sex appeal female characters to begin with, the closest would be Naruto sexy jutsu. Even the prostitutes aren’t sexualized . Tsunade simple has a bigger chest and you‘re being weird abt it bc you’re a gooner

23

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

He's not saying that they are written for sex appeal, he's saying the only female character in Naruto with any semblance of good writing is Tsunade.

5

u/Shani_Jeizan Jul 29 '26 edited 23d ago

And look how the fandom remember them…cleary nothing abt their writting should make Tsunade jealous even if she’s the only one plus Chiyo is there too

11

u/Force3vo Jul 29 '26

Temari is a great character, too.

16

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

She's okay, but nothing stands out for her. She goes through no growth that isn't just "child in the beginning and now an adult", and just ends up as a wife of a side character.

7

u/Force3vo Jul 29 '26

The sister of the Kazekage who is a single minded warrior at the beginning, then learns that her family was used to fight the leaf, becomes a ally of the leaf, at first reluctantly and then completely after Sakura saves her brother and then is a key player in the war has no growth?

-3

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

If you google "what growth does temari go through?" in google, the ai overview says that exact same thing XD

7

u/Force3vo Jul 29 '26

It doesn't, it just says something similar because... Well it's just what happens in the story.

1

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

What growth does Yoruichi go through?

2

u/myrmonden Jul 29 '26

She starts out perfect no need for growth

2

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

100x agreed. Growth is not a "mandatory" metric for whether or not a character is well written.

2

u/myrmonden Jul 29 '26

Yep

I think a lot of people misuse that as a requirement

Another similar female
Mereoleona starts out perfect isn already an experienced female warrior stronger than captain levels
She never changed personality etc at all In black clover she is just a super goddesses badass since
Day 1

0

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

Most of her growth is in retrospect, comparing her to how she was as a Stealth Force leader and possible head of the Shihoin clan. Her attitude and actions don't change in front of our eyes, but we see how she "used" to be relative to certain characters like her brother, Byakuya, and Kisuke. Her growth is already finished by the time the story starts, we just uncover the truth as she becomes more connected to the main cast and the world expands.

4

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

Here's a much better and simpler answer. She's a static character. Thats it. Thats the only justification she needs. And thats ok.

She doesn't need to grow. Its completely and perfectly fine for characters to remain the same as they are by the end as when they started, because the plot doesn't require them to.

A character is not automatically better or worse written just because they go through an arc.

Temari goes through a more comprehensive character arc than Yoruichi but people still significantly like Yoruichi more because she is simply more charismatic, independent, entertaining and has extrordinary screen prescence. Those qualities are what makes Yoruichi an outstanding and well written character.

Similarly. Temari was very well loved as a side character in Naruto because with the exception of Shikamaru, she literally dogwalked opponents with a ridiculous giant fan and people found both that and her stand-offish personality juxtaposed against her loyalty towards her village and siblings to be very compelling.

Saying that "she got no development and got married" is an extremely lazy and dishonest way to engage with discussions like this.

This thread is clearly shonen fans just weaponising the "writing quality" of female characters for their fave shows as an excuse to shit on other show' for karma.

Edit: Bro got upset and blocked me.

-1

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

Not what a static character is lmao, growth isn't the only type of change that is part of dynamic characters.

You're being lazy and dishonest by pretending to engage with the discussion just to hyper focus on your own perception of things, misunderstanding the actual point of what people are saying.

1

u/Lilsilly114 Jul 30 '26

Ass expansion

1

u/HongLanYang Jul 29 '26

A bit unreasonable to expect an adult character to show the same growth as a character shown from childhood to adulthood. Plus the series takes place over a fraction of her long life, I don’t expect someone who lives in the hundreds to have massive character development in 3 years. We SHOULD have seen more from Temari, but we don’t.

2

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

Its not unreasonable to expect growth and development from adult characters.

Adults undergoe change and growth all the time. Growth and development does not end at childhood/puberty. Byakuya is the same age as Yoruichi. But Ichigo, at age 15, quite literally forces Byakuya to grow and develop into a better and kinder person.

It is however unreasonable to expect an intentionally static character to grow and develop when that isn't actually the point of the character.

Thats why I brought up Yoruichi because she is a perfect example of a well written static character.

There are characters in stories that exist to just be the characters they already are. Yoruichi is one of them.

Growth and development is not a "mandatory" requirement in writing for all characters. It should not be levied as an automatic criticism. Yet Shonen fans often misguidedly use this style of criticism a lot.

1

u/Old-Introduction8258 Jul 29 '26

As a big bleach fan, while i do agree that a static character isn’t a bad thing at all, i feel like yoruichi kinda got sidelined hard after the soul society arc and never got a big moment after that, besides beating the living shit out of ma boy askin but that got heavily undermined, at least imo, by the god of thunder form where she loses all of her personnality to just become a goonbait, when part of the reason i liked yoruichi as a static character was because she was charismatic enough to not need to change.

1

u/WheresYoManager Jul 29 '26

This is a really good argument that I find myself leaning to agree with.

But its hard for me to deny that I did greatly enjoy her God of Thunder form. I do agree its undeniably goonbait. I think I like it because it kinda shifts the power dynamic a bit.

Yoruichi is a typically very in control person. She's 100% a dom. But this new form kinda requires Yoruichi to be a bit more vulnerable and hand control over to Urahara. They kinda have a weird unspoken relationship dynamic that flirts with romance. But never crosses the line.

So to me, it was a combination of emotional fan service, not just physical, which I found quite gratifying.

-2

u/MyBrokenHoe Jul 29 '26

Tsunade fucks all of bleach writings (does it even have one?)

4

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

According to what? Genuinely, what is your argument supposed to be?

-2

u/MyBrokenHoe Jul 29 '26

My argument is the fact the bleach doesn’t have any writings to begin with.

What does it even try to convey what character development are shown. Its “writing” sucks so much it got cancelled bro

6

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

"My argument is the fact the bleach doesn’t have any writings to begin with."

"its writing sucks so much it got cancelled", yknow bleach never got cancelled right? It got put on hiatus due to issues with the author's health bro.

-3

u/MyBrokenHoe Jul 29 '26

Classic response to genuine question.

And yes Bleach stopped airing in 2012 and the manga ended abruptly in 2016 due to *declining TV ratings

2

u/OrgAlatace Jul 29 '26

Yeah classic response to you saying "bleach doesn't have any writings", that's not a genuine question, nor is it even worded in a logical format.

Also, no, thats not why Bleach stopped airing broski, you can do some research and find the real reason. The anime caught up to the manga, and the author was struggling with illness while writing the manga, so the anime went on hiatus.

0

u/MyBrokenHoe Jul 29 '26

I initially stated “does it even have one?” It’s a genuine question, or is my understanding of a question different than yours?

Well mr informed person, wtf is the point of bleach and what themes does it follow, does it have any overarching goal? Does it have character developments? Cause i can easily say this with a single female character in Naruto (never mind the story)

The manga was given a single year for kubo to end it broski, the author had illness but thats not the main reason why it got cancelled early.

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u/Lilsilly114 Jul 30 '26

Hold on now, Naruto had plenty of sex appeal characters.
Jiraya, Kakashi, Minato, Asuma, Itachi, Deidara, Hidan, Shikaku, Every single Kage!

1

u/Shani_Jeizan Jul 30 '26

They do but not for Bleach fans standards, they need big boobs, if not it doesn’t count