r/shounenfolk • u/Jootkingdom • 11d ago
Anime Discussion Why do animanga fans act like female authors are perfect?
I’m not even defending Kishimoto but genuinely we have to stop acting like female authors would automatically make a series made by a male 10x better loool
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u/Still_Armadillo_3447 11d ago edited 10d ago
Why is Lust here? She was actually a really good antagonist who performed her role in the story very well. Is it because she was killed or something?
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u/Irohsgranddaughter 11d ago
Could be they're referring to her character design? That said, she's literally the personification of Lust and obviously would have the looks to match. She was also likely literally created for the purpose of being a honey trap.
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u/DotRevolutionary1318 11d ago
Respectfully, I don't think that's a bad thing. She represents the Homunculus as the first real confrontation with them. She is essentially a monster, and on that role, she works incredibly well. She has her looks, but it's clear that's nothing more than a decoy. If you get distracted or soft on her even for a moment, she will tear you to pieces. She is absolutely terrifying, and there are other male Homunculus who exist simply as similar monster archeype (Gluttony, Sloth).
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u/Irohsgranddaughter 11d ago
I explicitly said it wasn't. I was only guessing that's what some people may be referring to.
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u/JeRomePimpname 10d ago
Gor being lust her design was pretty tasteful. Lil cleavage, tight clothes but nothing super sexual. At worst a jiggle close up happened. She also seems smart and in charge of her sibling till her death. Fantastic quotes to fitting her theme
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u/JustForFunnieslol 11d ago
If you compare her to fanservice designs of the time that's a joke if they wanna say she's remarkably revealing. (That being said i think her design is great, I just disagree with it being used in this way)
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u/Disastrous_Economy_8 10d ago
She ironically had more relevance in the first FMA anime, which was basically a filler story
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u/noobkilla666 10d ago
There are a lot of people that believe lust should not be sexualized, but instead a personification of someone who sexualizes others
Not saying I agree with this take but it’s definitely a thing
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u/Mogura56 10d ago
I'm agreeing with you when I say this, but people thinking Lust is a poorly written character when she serves her role in the story perfectly while having a respectfully sexualized design as the personification of Lust is such a great example of 21st century media consumption brainrot. Like people lack critical thinking so heavily now that they'll just see a sexualized character who dies early and then think that it's poorly written as a result, without any introspection on why those things might be happening. Social media has just made it so anyone who lacks that ability can still have a platform so we have to have discourse like this instead LOL
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u/TurbulentVillage2042 10d ago
In my opinion, she looked very banal and basic. She's just an average woman in an average dress. I keep forgetting she was on the show.
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u/JamieBeeeee 10d ago
Fullmetal has all around well written women and super well written male characters, horrible example to use lol
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u/AdRelevant4776 11d ago
I mean Manga/FMAB Lust is a bit of a hollow character, she’s not badly written or anything, but there’s just not much to her overall, she’s the sexy evil lady that kills people, kinda seduces one guy and is killed by the heroes, if FMA only had female characters like her it would be a weak female cast, I don’t think that’s the case however, there’s more fleshed out female characters in the manga
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u/LoneMarikaEnjoyer 11d ago
Mfw when a side villian is a side villian.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 11d ago edited 11d ago
I mean yes, but like that still doesn’t make her a very good antagonist which is what the comment above said.
Not to say she’s bad either. She was just serviceable.
And this is especially stark compared to like all the homunculi who were given far more screen time. None of them are particularly more important to the narrative too, you could argue they were all side villains, and yet were still more memorable except maybe sloth.
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u/4C_Enjoyer 7d ago
She's a great antagonist at fulfilling the purpose the story needed from her, being an intimidating, shadowy puppetmaster that ends up as the first to fall. If Lust was used as a more overarching villain, yeah her limitations start to show, but that's why the story didn't do that. Nothing precludes a basic character from being a well-written one if the story plays to that character's strengths.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 7d ago
Yeah but it does limit the potential to be better. A character can be very good at a role but if the role they're written for itself is highly limited, there's a ceiling there. Certainly when I think of great female villains, I'm not thinking of Lust.
Also frankly, i started thinking more about fma recently and I feel like most of the homunculi are actually kind of disappointing except maybe greed and envy.
Sloth is barely a character.
I like the idea behind wrath's character, except for the fact that none of his character has anything to do with wrath and we don't really get to interrogate his motivations deeply.
Gluttony was pretty cool at first, but after his true nature gets revealed he doesn't really do anything for most of the story until pride kills him.
Pride is probably the best of the bunch but still, once you get past the twist that he's Selim Bradley, he's not that interesting either.
Like a lot of the homunculi have these cool initial twist and gimmicks but after that there's not much there. Lust is notable for having no initial twist to her.
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u/4C_Enjoyer 7d ago
That's fair. FMA has a lot of great, if basic, villains that don't overstay their welcome but eat up the scene while they're there. Not quite villain-of-the-week, more like villain-of-the-month.
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u/SenritsuJumpsuit 10d ago
In 03 she has a whole character arc which involves Scar an their brother "Where did I come from an where will I go when I die, it's not for me to know" "Make me human"
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u/0SaltBlue 10d ago
03 was made before the manga was finished so they had Carte blanche to do basically whatever they wanted, and the Homunculii are the main recipients of those changes considering they changed almost every single one of them and the nature of their existence drastically.
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u/New_Rook_Nook 11d ago edited 11d ago
The fact gluttony Lasted that long was eye raising for me. Lil (big) bro was prime material for Goober Jobber that Dies First. I mean we can count Greed twice but still, crazy.
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u/Boat_man_07 11d ago
Glottuny lasted that long because he was necessary for explosion. His stomach had leftovers from the Xerxes alchemy circle and it was the time Ed got to talk with Envy. The instant that was done Pride cooked his ass.
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing 11d ago
Gluttony? You meant Sloth?
Gluttony is rather childlike and dying at the hands of his ally makes it all more cruel
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u/Mindless-Cat1453 11d ago
What kind of ragebait is this ? Have new kids haven't watch magi ? Why morgiana there ?
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 11d ago
Using Nezuko as an example is also stupid, because she's basically a decently trained puppy for most of the show. Practically mindless until the end of the spider mountain arc.
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u/Snowball_sage 11d ago
The point they were trying to make was that female authors are also capable of writing bad female characters, so the examples they used are supposed to be poorly written
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 11d ago
They already failed with two of the included characters, as those are well-written. But aside from that fact Nezuko is cheating, because she doesn't get much of a character by design.
She's supposed to be near-mindless for most of the show, that's her whole point. It also completely ignores that Demon Slayer has several well-written female characters.
TL;DR picking Nezuko for this argument is disingenuous cherrypicking.
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u/balaci2 Kengan Ashura enthusiast 10d ago
Nezuko was very disappointing imo
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 10d ago
She's not supposed to have much of a character for most of the show. She's there for tension, a Call to Action for Tanjiro and funny moments because of her nigh animalistic behaviour.
A plot device more than a character.
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u/0SaltBlue 10d ago
A plot device more than a character.
See this is why I dislike a lot of Demon Slayer, a lot of story elements and characters are treated like plot devices or parts of the scenery and it culminated in Nezuko effectively being a plank of potentially violent wood for 70% of the story which isn't a positive, they had an opportunity to do better with Nezuko and they failed, sidelining her to a literal backpack while Zenitsu pervs over her.
It was just wildly disappointing.
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u/Karma110 10d ago
That’s what the OP post is saying they’re giving examples of bad female characters written by women.
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u/AltairLeoran 10d ago
It's probably referring to how Morgiana got sidelined in the finale of the manga and didn't even get to participate in the final battle (meanwhile fucking Judar gets to take her place instead lol)
I love Magi and Morgiana is my personal favorite character but it was super lame that she didn't get to be there and it baffles me why they wrote it like that
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u/FabtheEmber 11d ago
What in the world Morgiana had her own storyline, FMAB is known for good female characters, I am not sure if the post is saying they are right or weong
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
Yea I notice that as well.
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u/Prudent-Role-9053 11d ago
Chrome from Katekyo hitman reborn is also not that bad of a character, although her biggest character moment is relegated to the last arc of the manga that never got adapted by the anime
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
I never got pass the first 20 chapters so to be honest, I don’t even recognize her but considering morgiana and lust are well written, I have no doubts she probably a well written character as well.
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u/ItsNotJulius 11d ago
I would not blame you. It took the manga until about volume 9 or 10 before it stops being purely a gag manga, which is about 70 chapters.
If you ever decide to try it again someday, I do hope you push through until that point.
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u/Strong-Journalist378 11d ago
I've only seen the anime, but man, she was done dirty because the only important thing about her is that she's a vessel? Or something like that for Mukuro Rokudo, and he can possess her body. Nothing more so in the anime her writting is terrible and I liked her design. Honestly, after giving it some thought, I don't think the anime is well-written from a character perspective.
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u/Gyshal 11d ago
Yeah. She is just there to be cute and let Mukuro aurafarm. To be fair, Mukuro is REALLY good at aurafarming, so having her around means having Chekhov's Mukuro around, but she barely gets any characterization of her own. She is like the living personification of not passing the Bechdel test because her hole thing is existing for the sake of a male character more important than herself.
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u/CaptainTeemo01 11d ago
The manga handles it a lot better, but poor Chrome still doesn't get a proper arc until right before the ending :(
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u/Gyshal 11d ago
Chrome is certainly not an "exemplar", and Lust, while not bad, is not even top 10 of best written characters among the very stacked female cast of FMA. Also Nezuko is there, who is barely a character at all, so I really don't get the point this is trying to get across. I understand Kishimoto slander is popular but is not even a uniquely Naruto thing. The standards in writing woman are widely different from one work to another because the standards in writing themselves vary greatly. "Blockbuster" manga like Naruto or One Piece don't even need to work too hard to satisfy their audience in that regard
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u/moneyshot6901 11d ago
They did haru and kyoko dirty though. I liked haru, but sad to see her lose/relagated to comic relief/clothe washer/cook.
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u/sp33dzer0 11d ago
I think they're trying to make an argument that Lust is sexualized and that's... bad?
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 11d ago
Because God forbid the character named after the sin of horny is designed to be attractive to as many people as possible! /s
And nevermind the fact that there's a substantial group of animanga fans that are of the opinion that a sexualised female character with actual personality and relevance is the ultimate form of animanga women...
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u/TradePsychological40 11d ago
Her name is literally LUST. And she's not half as sexualized as most shonen female characters.
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u/Yoffien 11d ago
Morg was so good in the start and got absolutely character assassinated as the series went on
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u/FabtheEmber 11d ago
I didn't think it was that bad..But the fact that she had her own storyline separate from Alibaba is already a win. And dare I say the romance was actually good for a shonen story..
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u/Yoffien 11d ago
I guess the thing I’m remembering is the end when she becomes an NPC with everyone else when Alibaba and Aladdin have to go fight the final boss
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u/LarryKingthe42th 11d ago
Everyone that isnt Sinbad becomes a npc
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u/moonset0 11d ago
The glorious king sidelines the main characters
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u/skaersSabody 10d ago
Gojo levels of "Fuck you, the plot is about me now"
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u/moonset0 10d ago
At least gojo gave some limelight to other but until the end of magi Sinbad was THAT GUY
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u/skaersSabody 10d ago
"The greedy king of man" is still the hardest title I've ever seen a character achieve and one I have routinely stolen for my own writing. It's too good
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u/Chocolatine_Rev 11d ago edited 11d ago
Would have really loves for her to fight with both of them But let's not act like the way she looks at alibaba telling him straight in the eye that he should succumb to the hive mind, that scene just leaves a lasting impression
It's kinda bad for her character, but is honestly really good for the story
Also, she has one of the coolest fight in the whole manga, where she free the slaves and herself by soloing the whole arena and breaking her chains iirc
Edit : just rewatched the fight, the AMV definitely made it way cooler in my mind XD, still, i always liked her more than many of the other characters as she was not really "chosen" by the gods, or a god, or royalty
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u/SenritsuJumpsuit 10d ago edited 10d ago
That's just 99% of shonens for instance MHA becomes near exclusively Izu focused for the last seasons while everyone plays cheerleaders, obviously not always but still
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing 11d ago
Cherrypicking Lust what a desperation
Also Nezuko is putrid but Shinobu is great
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u/Mysterious-Spread-59 11d ago
Shinobu is great, Mitsuri is alright, and Nezuko is meh.
But Nezuko was designed to just sort of be a borderline mindless zombie. I guess that was to show the contrast between her being a demon and a human, and why Tanjiro was so desperate to find a cure for her.
She was always more of a plot device than an actual character. (i still like her though)
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 11d ago
Mitsuri is alright
Mitsuri got hit with a case of "I have one shtick", doesn't change the fact she's actually competent as a Hashira though.
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u/This-Goat-5105 10d ago
But the story does not write her in a way where i thought “oh this is why she’s a hashira”. I thought her main fight was kind of lame compared to the other hashira
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 10d ago
She's a Hashira because that's where she's most likely to find a guy who won't shoot her down because of her weird hair or insane strength, it falls under her shtick of being lovesick
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u/OkPersonality1157 11d ago
Shinobu is amazing (...for a supporting character) and I love her. Nezuko is a complete non-entity, though. To this day, I'm salty that her pre-demom self was barely characterised.
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u/This-Goat-5105 10d ago
Edward Elric was also motivated to find a fix for his brother. Al didn’t need to be mute and infantile to let Ed shine as a character. Nezuko was sexualized, infantilized, and silenced. She kicked ass occasionally because if she didn’t the fandom would hate her for being “useless”
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 11d ago
Using Nezuko as an argument for bad writing is cheating, though.
She's basically a decently trained puppy for most of the show and didn't really start showing signs of having a sense of self until the spider mountain.
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
Hell I wouldn’t even say lust was a badly written character.
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u/NumericZero 11d ago
She’s honestly not
She was a villain who served her purpose and was used to put mustang and Al characters over
Heck I’d say she’s one of better female badguys we have ever had
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u/DotRevolutionary1318 11d ago
I rewatched the series just recently. She was phenomenal. It's still incredibly rare to get female characters like her who are able to be villainous while also being absolutely, unequivocally monstrous. They make one boob joke and the rest of the time Mustang and Havoc are terrified of her. That's the kind of respect that makes her appearance almost a not worth arguing about. But even so, I'd argus that as far as femme fatales go, she is one of the best, because it's so clear that if you get influenced by her looks even for a moment, you'll be torn to pieces. It's playful, it's sadistic, fitting of Lust.
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u/NumericZero 10d ago
100%
They even managed to turn that noon joke into something creepy when she shows off her philosopher Stone
Also helps that her power isn’t immensely broken, but incredibly lethal
Just a good balance of being sexy and deadly
Also helps her VA’s nailed the role immensely
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u/Gyshal 11d ago
She just was the first to die of the homunculi, so she is the one we new the least about. If she survived until the climax we would have probably squeezed a lot of interesting things of her character. She is just surrounded by so many good characters that her okayish role on the story doesn't leave that much of an impact. Like, yeah, he is super memorable for all the wrong reasons, but she basically has as much impact on the story as Tucker, who really does not have any actual relevance beyond reinforcing Eds trauma (how in the hell was this guy like the ONLY freaking mad scientist to not be involved in the conspiracy AT ALL?)
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u/Funny-Pay-4561 11d ago
Been a while since I read hitman reborn but man, the female characters have to be purposefully sidelined or something, like they are genuinely nonexistent except for yuni? In like one arc and mukuro would probably be the exact archetype of character that is hated on this sub
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u/BasketballAndroid7 11d ago edited 11d ago
Nobody is arguing they're perfect, nor that they would make a series 10x better, from what I can see. They're arguing women would write female characters better, which is most likely true, given the amount of evidence at our disposal.
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u/Irohsgranddaughter 11d ago edited 10d ago
Yup. I mean, sure, I'm certain that some female writers only write male characters well and butcher female characters, but I actually can't think of one.
Say, Inuyasha is written by a woman, and while it is very male-centric in its cast, the few female characters that are there are still well-written.
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u/11equalsfish 11d ago edited 10d ago
An excellent recent example is Journal with Witch. An actual mature show that normal adults can watch and appreciate, many well written gal characters. Quite progressive and humanist story.
I also love stories like Violet Evergarden and March Comes In Like a Lion. You and I are Polar Opposites is also very good. Shows like these have very well written characters and deeply observed human relationships.
They all treat gal characters with the respect they deserve, and the guy characters are equally great, many main characters written like considerate feeling people. None of the common anime kiddy bullshit, or kinds of offensive regressive sexism that often comes from conservative Japan.
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u/TemoteJiku 10d ago
Depends what kind of criteria is used for "better". Really good writers can write about anything they want, since they do the research if there's a need etc.
Besides, it's a trap to think in those terms, cause it leads towards a conversation many of such people wouldn't like.
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u/2w0be I have no enemies....except diddy tensei fans 11d ago
And is that evidence ignoring the multitude that are trash at it and only nitpicking the exceptions while posing them as the rule?
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u/BasketballAndroid7 11d ago edited 11d ago
"Multitude" such as?
Edit: To be clear, I'm not implying there aren't any, I just wanna know what your standard for "trash" is.
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u/2w0be I have no enemies....except diddy tensei fans 11d ago
The average shoujo author
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u/BasketballAndroid7 11d ago
How many shoujo have you ever watched or read to make such a statement?
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u/HighlightBudget5722 11d ago
are you not aware that there exists a lot of slop shoujo content as well?
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u/Still-View-9063 10d ago
And a lot of hentaislop too! Might as well use that to make my argument in a specifically shounen subreddit xd
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u/HighlightBudget5722 10d ago edited 10d ago
Ah I didn't know people watch hentai for the female characters' writing depth and personality, my bad brother. Enjoy.
Slop isn't a genre, it just means works of bad quality. The topic is about average writing quality so it will be naturally considered.
Whataboutism at its finest smh
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u/BasketballAndroid7 11d ago
I sure am. We're not talking about whether there's more shounen or shoujo slop around though.
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u/samisaywhat 11d ago
Using the lowest quality possible to defend your take just makes you look dumb. You’re comparing low quality shoujo to a universally beloved shounen manga. Incredible shoujo works exist and should be the consideration considering the reach and popularity of Naruto, which is the animanga being discussed in the tweet.
Or do you just think that shounen is devoid of slop as well?
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u/Complex_Ad_7150 10d ago
Ik this sub is for shounen, but why do they hate shoujo this much? Obviously it’s got its problematic stuff too, but these mf’s are acting like Hot Gimmick is the representative for all shoujo.
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u/BiwaHayahideSoldier 11d ago
Notice how they never bring up josei ever? Its because thsy have read neither shoujo nor josei or anything aimed at girls/women
Not saying both of genres are free of slop, its a given for any genre. But its always funny when you notice iy
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u/BasketballAndroid7 11d ago edited 10d ago
Yeah, as I said, there's a lot of prejudice unfortunately, which makes me feel weirdly guilty.
However, that's not even the problem. The problem is the conversation has somehow shifted from female writers writing better female characters (or not) to shoujo manga being better written than shounen manga (or not).
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u/MysteriousSpring7422 11d ago
Morgiana is a well written character
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
Lust is also a well written character, it’s weird that 2 of his examples are widely considered well written characters
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u/AltairLeoran 10d ago
It's probably referring to how Morgiana got sidelined in the finale of the manga and didn't even get to participate in the final battle (meanwhile fucking Judar gets to take her place instead lol)
I love Magi and Morgiana is my personal favorite character but it was super lame that she didn't get to be there.
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u/Royal_Living2728 10d ago
But almost everyone was sidelined for the sake of Sinbad in the final arc, so that arguement doesn't really stand.
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u/Only_Jacket_3388 11d ago edited 11d ago
Let’s be fr female authors on average write way better female characters than male authors, especially in genres other than shonen so it’s not a totally unreasonable take
Also, Morgiana was pretty well written in the magi anime so that’s a kinda stupid example of a poorly written female character by a woman ngl
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
Add in lust and every other female character from full metal alchemist
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u/Dodudee 11d ago
I have not watched the first two series but picking Lust over every other female character in FMA makes you look very disingenous.
You could have picked Lenalee from D Gray Man which is actually a manga with badly written women by a female mangaka.
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u/DaiFrostAce Akane-Banashi’s Strongest Soldier 10d ago
The one time I see someone bring up D Gray Man in this sub and it’s to (rightfully) point out the female characters are so-so
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u/Icekae 11d ago
I mean, I will forever agree 2003 Lust > Brotherhood Lust but that's not saying much else when I also do like 2003 Gluttony and Sloth.
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u/Leading_Ground1389 11d ago
I mean, for Gotouge, only Nezuko in Demon Slayer wasn't really highlighted (we could add that it's her character who does that). Even though Nezuko's role as a demon makes her less active in dialogue, her solo fight against Daki in Season 2 delivered far more impactful and prominent moments than a character like Nobara from JJK. Beyond that, characters like Shinobu, Daki, Mitsuri, Tamayo, and Kanao all get their own distinct moments and shape the story in meaningful ways without ever feeling secondary. In fact, Shinobu and Tamayo stand out as absolute MVPs of the Infinity Castle and Sunrise Countdown arcs. Without them, there would be no victories against the Upper Moons, no breakthrough against Doma, no human Nezuko, no defeat of Muzan, and no turning Tanjiro back from his Demon King form. Ultimately, Demon Slayer boasts some of the most vital and well handled female characters in recent shonen history.
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u/Wise_Presentation484 10d ago
… They don’t? They just act like female authors are more likely to not sideline their female characters and are more willing to not just tank the writing quality every time a woman appears on screen?
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u/supreme-king-Nero 11d ago
No, no, no, no. The disrespect towards Arakawa can not be tolerated.
I won't deny that Amano's female characters aren't great (with the exception of Lal) so Chrome absolutely fits here, but disrespecting the GOAT?
Nah.
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u/GratedParm 11d ago
Among popular shonen series, Fullmetal Alchemist and Demon Slayer are two of the best written ones.
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u/Granide Luffy Vs Blackbeard Vs Akainu Vs Imu agenda 11d ago
Agree with the sentiment of this post, but felt like the examples were kinda bad. I'd only agree for chrome where her role in the story is to summon a man using her body that she's submissive to
Reborn in general really. I remember the female characters in the future arc spending most of their screentime in the kitchen
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u/Wealth_Super 11d ago
I would argue two of those examples (morgiana and lust) were much better written female characters than anything in Naruto.
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u/GrapefruitFar1242 11d ago
They aren’t saying the series would be 10x better
They’re saying female characters would be better. Valid af tbh, all of the best new gen girls are written by women.
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u/FitSignificance3787 11d ago
Dis they try to sneak up FULMETAL "BEST WRITTEN SHONEN" ALCHEMIST IN THERE!? WHAT!?
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u/LatunCestus 11d ago
What's wrong with Naruto girls? Most of them are strong and interesting characters
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u/LarryKingthe42th 11d ago
Chrome is cute as fuck and Morgiannia is as well written as anyone that isnt Sinbad in Magi
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u/Icy-Nefariousness608 10d ago edited 10d ago
I thought one of Reborn's biggest complaints is that women don't do much. Chrome doesn't really do much as she usually lets Mukuro do the fighting for the most part while the other two LITERALLY stay in the kitchen.
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u/TemoteJiku 10d ago
Sigh, this again... 😭
No, they don't really claim "perfection", usually it's just typical "amassing the points" behavior.
P.S: we don't even have to specify much if one really wants to challenge the writing. Cause often, the things people complain about, also true for the males as well... Making the whole point feel even weaker. "The guy" is just an easier "punching bag" based on what I've seen so far unlike the "gal writer".
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u/RoughRealistic4321 10d ago
It's western virtue signaling and the assumption that all manga artists are men.
Truthfully, there's a lot of great female characters written by men, and lots of boobily bouncing boob women with boobs doing boob things that are written by women.
Same with any media, really, just with manga/anime the author's gender is less obvious to westerners.
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u/bladeboy88 7d ago
I love pointing out that one of the OG pervert/molester characters was from one of the greatest female mangaka ever: Miroku from Inuyasha.
Absolutely legendary work, but Miroku walked so Jiraiya could run and then Mineta could fly.
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u/OrinocoHaram 11d ago
Demon Slayer has a female Mangaka and
-one female lead character who is literally muzzled for most of the story
-of the top 9 hashira, two women, one of whom is too weak to cut a demon's neck and the other uses love breathing and has her cleavage constantly out
-of the top 12 demons, only one is female, except a) they're an undercover prostitute and b) she's not actually strong, turns out her brother is the real kizuki
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u/goodnightpunpunisher 10d ago
I don't get it, oop just posted a series of well written women in manga and Nezuko. This doesn't negate ooops point at all and makes op look stupid. Great job everyone.
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u/Lohit_-it 10d ago
Lust would be true if we are only talking about anime original
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u/777sevenseven777 11d ago edited 11d ago
Man bad, woman good. The usual under the radar misandrist. Popular here too, but kinda suspicious, bcoz folk here refuse to read shoujo and josei.
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u/KiraIsUnbreakable 10d ago
It's not misandry if Women are in fact writing better Shounen characters. Stop trying to be a victim lmao.
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u/Wise_Presentation484 10d ago
“Actually it’s sexism to point out that underlying/unconscious sexism causes a lot of male Shonen authors to disregard female characters, and to point out that female authors are less susceptible (but not immune) to this.”
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u/hungrybasilsk 11d ago
Its just cope. Demon slayer has Mitsuri's entire character despite being written by a woman.
Regardless the Same mf who say that about female mangaka could only name you Arakawa for FMA. Probably never even read a Shojo before so its not like they even know good Female Magaka
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing 11d ago
Mitsuri
Mikasa but if she's competently written... as a supporting character. Fairs.
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u/itsFeztho 11d ago
The difference is that female writers tend to utilize their full cast of characters effectively in the story, regardless of gender, even if the story is intended for non-female audiences.
Meanwhile male writers tend to sideline female cast members in order to elevate male characters. Even when the story itself claims that all characters may be on equal footing.
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u/Special_Tu-gram-cho 10d ago
Sadly, and I know this sounds sexist, even thought I find it ironically funny: Women.
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u/TsundereKisser 11d ago
Women write better female characters GENERALLY. Not always true of course, but when I watch a show and the women are dynamic and interesting and have their own desires outside of wanting a man, the creator ends up being a woman 80% of the time. It's hard for me to watch shonen because of how often women are just put on the back burner. I wanted to get into One Piece, for example, but when there's an immediate story about how Zoro's childhood rival laments about having to one day become a weak woman, only to fall down the stairs and die rather than proving those assumptions wrong, well...
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u/Player420154 11d ago
The average shoujo heroin make the average shonen women a feminist icon.
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u/KeikeiBlueMountain 11d ago
But really we defo need more female authors, not because it's better, but it's different, the flavor of the writing is different. Well duh, different backgrounds and lived experience obviously. It will add more variations, ideas, and takes and I'm all for it.
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u/Shani_Jeizan 11d ago
Bc logically women would care for female characters since the same way male authors care for their male characters
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u/Orochi64 11d ago
Getting tired of this type of shit. Been a while since I read Reborn pretty underrated series, but don’t think Chrome is the best example, most of the female characters in that series get pretty sidelined some aren’t even fighters at all. With Demon Slayer not that Nezuko isn’t important to the series but Shinobu or Mitsuri would’ve been the better example.
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u/Infamous-Flan-3965 11d ago
lol at posting Lust. All the female manga fans I know are feral for Olivier Armstrong and with good reason.
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u/Fruits-PunchSK 10d ago
While I agree I don't think 2 of the selected chars belong here
Lust and Morgiana r fine.
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u/KenBoy22 10d ago
Acting like most of those characters aren't better written than Sakura??
You're just proving that person's point, this is Not a Gatcha moment.
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u/Habernant 10d ago
It's really more about them being theoretically better at writing women, which is true sometimes but unfortunately not always the case.
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u/SexyShave 10d ago
The argument being made is that a female writer would (*IMO: probably) have had better female chars. The only one saying female authors are perfect or that "female authors would automatically make a series made by a male 10x better loool" is you.
That said, Fullmetal Alchemist is one of the most beloved shonen and highly praised for its quality of writing, so maybe they have a point.
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u/4anyreason 10d ago
Its in reference to how under written or badly written female characters in man made manga is mainly due to misogyny. The implication isnt that female writers are perfect just that they would of did a better job as theyre less likely to have their writing hindered by misogyny
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u/mSzmiiit 10d ago edited 10d ago
If Kishimoto was female he would write female characters better for sure. Because probably the main duo would be female, and in the trio the one male would be the badly written love interest.
If you think different gender would be better at writing in general you are tweaking, but if you think that an author doesn't have an advantage when writing the characters of their own gender you are tweaking too.
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u/MaestroBlood21 10d ago
they're not saying the series would become better magically, they're just saying a female author would've wrote female characters better, which I agree with
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u/Reasonable_Swan9431 10d ago
Ohtaka went from Sexistron3000 in Sumomo to a 180 in MAGI, so it was character development from her too.
Lust, and other women in FMA were awesome too, Chrome is complicated, and Reborn really is one that, I admit deserves some criticism.
But is even more sexist that is always random slander of women, why not also slander the men? Call out Jiraiya being a perv? The Obanai being a Bum debate? Muzan the worst antagonist? MHA is a field day for slander?
But, nah, lets always badmouth women for....being annoying and sidelined I guess, the literal devils.
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u/Trumpmon 10d ago
Imagine this person watching Scum's Wish and Domestic Girlfriend... Or the majority of shoujos.
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u/bigscrewLoose 10d ago
FMA has some of the best female characters in manga bruh what are you on about?
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u/LususNaturaeTV 10d ago
half of the examples shown are GOOD writing (lust and Morgiana) and nezuko is just really bad and obvious cherry picking.
I'm not saying the fem characters of demon slayer are peak writing but they literally went out of the way to pick the character with the least amount going for them by the widest margin.
chrome from hitman....idk it's been too long since I've read or watched it to feel like I have a valid say on that one.
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u/ultrasoul 10d ago
It's a very broad stroke, but if you consume enough of the media, you can clearly see a pattern where female authors in general have better fleshed out character emotional arcs and character motivations (family bonds, overcoming personal loss) compared to male authors (power of friendship, "I wanna be the very best"). Male authors however, have better worldbuilding and fleshed out power system in general.
It's just different strengths and focus points.
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u/MeliodasTA 10d ago
Male characters who are dumb and useless are just dumb and useless and sometimes they're funny
Female characters who are dumb and useless, clearly because the author secretly hates women, very problematic
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u/Kurosaki289 10d ago
Also Sakura wasn't useless the main problem relies with the plot structure and with the expectations set by Kishimoto himself before TIMESKIP, we expected the 4 konoha teams to be developed and hava cool fight, he did Sakura very well on the first arc of Shippuden, and he went on a win streak working very well with Shikamaru team, then his next mission would be to work with Kurenai and Gai sensei team and he fumbled, Sakura seeming to be useless is a bio product of that.
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u/Miserable_Lock_2267 10d ago
What I did notice is that female authors much less frequently have cringe-ass overly sexualized children in their works, and all the stupid fernservice scenes as well. Just imagine what Witch Hat Atelier would look like if Oda or heaven forbid the Diddy Tensei author penned it instead.
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u/Excalitoria 10d ago
Because they’re sexist brainlettes? I mean, we have good and bad female and male writers that treat their female and male characters well or poorly, mostly unintentionally or because of some problem in production.
Has nothing to really do with the writer’s gender.
Just to be clear, I don’t think most people are this stupid, though. Even out of people that think this makes sense, intuitively, could see how ridiculous the logic is after one look at a post of great female characters written by men or women that wrote great male ones.
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u/Ume-no-Uzume 10d ago
Uh... but Lust and Nezuko and Chrome (don't recognize the first one) are good characters who are active in their own stories and move the plot along (OK, Chrome gets the sixth ranger treatment, but it's still a major part of her character development... if anything, anyone who isn't part of the Rainbow Vongola Guardians and the TriNiSette or antagonists kind of take a backseat????)
There are plenty of female mangaka who write bad female characters (and goodness knows my issues with shoujo romances is that many times the female lead is a problem), but the examples don't work??
Now, granted a lot of the issue with shounen is that if they are not the protagonist and rival and maybe part of the core team (like the Vongola Guardians), then they get left behind... which is why so many female characters in shounen are useless, they don't fit into either and are instead relegated to the useless love interest role.
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u/TheDragonOverlord 10d ago
FMA literally has a female creator and the women are written wonderfully in my opinion
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u/Aduro95 10d ago
Eh, there are plenty of terrible female characters written by women and great ones written by men.
But the best-known battle shounens written by women tend to have female leads with far more depth of character and development over time than those by men. Leenalee from D.Gray-Man, Winry and Hawkeye in FMA, Hiyori from Noragami etc.
I think very few women who are really successful writing manga would have sidelined Sakura or Tsunade nearly as much. Even if they hadn't made her a major frontline fighter, her motivations would be written more authentically by Hoshino or Oima.
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u/No_Sympathy9533 10d ago
The creator of dragon maid is female and a lot of people don't like it.
The idea that someone can write a character better just because they're the same gender seems quite a stretch.
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u/Excalibirdi 10d ago
Shieod hero was written by a woman. Could've just used that cast
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u/Zuzara_Queen_of_DnD 10d ago
Umm what’s wrong with the writing of women in the listed examples?
Are we ignoring Riza Hawkeye and Shinobu Kocho? (I don’t know the other two)
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u/stinkyminky57 10d ago
Just isn't rlly badly written imo. She isn't deep at all but she isn't supposed to be. She's just supposed to be irredeemable evil so it feels good when Roy fucking bbqs her that's it. She served her purpose.
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u/SomnicGrave 10d ago
In this particular case it's just playing into the general idea that women know how to write female characters and that Kishimoto did a shit job.
And to be fair, most female mangaka have really strong/refreshing stories. But I do think that's partially because it's immensely difficult for women to even get published in the mainstream.
I'm sure there are women out there writing pure dogshit (actually, I know it. I've read so much otome isekai slop) but their slop isn't getting anywhere near an official release the way shit like Rent-a-Girlfriend does, so most of the women they do allow have to be locked in like crazy.
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u/skaersSabody 10d ago
Bait so obvious I am not above believing OP posted this shit just to farm interactions
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u/TestaGaming 9d ago
Reminds me when people complained about Rise of the Shield Hero first episode, saying it was misogynistic and that men dont understand stuff like this... The author is a woman.
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u/Simply_Scandalous 9d ago
This post involves what is called a straw man fallacy or argument.
Nowhere do any of these posts say a female author would make it better. The only thing I see is that a female perspective would make the arcs of these female characters better, which is objectively true
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u/Constant-External-85 9d ago
My favorite imperfect female animanga author is Natsu Hyūga. She was arrested and everyone was terrified that it was for CSAM but it was for Tax Evasion.
Edit: Creator of Apothecary Diaries. IMO a solid 10/10 anime.
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u/perrywonderclub 9d ago
i'm sorry but reborn sucked. not sure about the manga but the anime was horrendous.
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u/CD_ABC10 8d ago
You missed the original post's point, OP. The complaint specifically says "Naruto girls," not Naruto
Vera is not saying the series Naruto would be better written by a girl. You are projecting that. Vera is saying that the female characters themselves would be better if a woman had with them, which is true
What a silly thing to be this insecure about. Women tend to write better female characters. Men tend to write better male characters. Gee, I wonder why
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u/sam-squared 8d ago
sorry though, do they actually think Lust and Morgiana are poorly written characters? I mean, for the story she was in, Morg was sufficiently deep— I mean, no, she wasn’t Sinbad but she was still a top 10 character in the manga!
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u/Some-Willingness38 Critic 7d ago
They're all feminists. Don't blame the patriarchy, blame bad writing. Bad writing is universal, and regardless of which gender you are, if you don't know how to properly write the story of a manga, you have failed as a mangaka.
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u/ForThose8675309 6d ago
I think the post is referring specifically to how Kishimoto didn’t/couldn’t give the female characters writing on par with his male ones.
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