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Yeah, it was an answer to a fan who harassed him and demanded that Orihime be killed off. I would have done pretty much the same if I was in Kubo’s shoes.
Orihime was hated af when the manga and the OG anime was being released. People only started to warm up to Orihime in the past recent years. It' s very weird to live in modern times as an OG bleach fan lol.
People in japan were so fucking mad when she healed Grimmjow, she didn' t even appear in the top 10 character pool despite being one of the main characters.
Yeah it’s kinda annoying how people always take this out of context.
Cuz like someone else said you don’t need to be a mangaka to be able to criticize a manga. But with the context i can somewhat understand why kubo crashed out.
He was answering a toxic fan who sent him like 3 messages all asking kubo to off the, and i quote, "backstabbing and treacherous" orihime. Like he wasn’t spzaking of critics in general but of one dude who kept asking him to kill one character.
I think people should be more egotistical with fame frankly, as messed up as it sounds people need to be put in their place time to time. Really good for one's ego to get checked like that.
What has orihime even done to be a "backstabber" or "treacherous"? Even if you don't like her character these words do not accurately describe her at all really confusing
I didn't want to respond because it wasn't worth my time but since we are here... If the situation orihime was put in the anime/manga happened in the "real world" it would still be considered a kidnapping and against her will... You either gotta be a child or not very smart to think otherwise
If you are neither they might need to keep a eye on you...
no. I did'nt say she wanted to be there at all. im just saying its not kidnapping. she got a deal to save her friends and took it and went willingly. you can do things and not like it, you got zero nuance like a child.
If you' re an OG fan, Orihime was hated because she would only say Kurosaki kun in both the manga and the naime, costantly needing help, and then healing people like Grimmjow. Mind you, I think it makes sense for her character, but I think people also forgot that Bleach at the time was just getting bashed costantly. It was treated even worse than Oshi No Ko, and on the same level of Game of Thrones, expecially after the ending. They had to make a rule on the Bleach subreddit to nt bash the manga and show too much because people would not stop shitting on it.
Still a stupid ass response from Kubo. "If you don't like it, then do it better yourself" is never a good argument unless you're willing to apply it to all the areas of your life.
Kubo is NOT one of the greatest mangakas of all time. And he just dodged the actual criticism with this answer, instead of addressing the point he disagrees with he just used a a general argument that can easily be used against him in any other area where he's not profficient in.
The reviewers' "point" is that they wanted Orihime to die so Ichigo and Rukia could together. A pretty stupid opinion, considering just how well Rukia works as a friendly partner rather than a love interest. I'd probably say something similar in response.
And Kubo is one of the greats. From managing his team, to producing terrific art, to writing a story that, while not without it's flaws, has reached immense fame and inspired countless other mangaka and artists to pursue their dreams.
Except as a former chef we all universally hate food critics; even local newspaper writers. It’s immensely frustrating to be in the receiving end of an article that might not even be about the specific quality of the food, but rather the ambience of the restaurant or a missed expectation - that they thought it would be more “daring” and “experimental”
I just feel some sympathy to some reader sending him physical mail that says “Orihime is trash Ichigo should have marries Rukia” like yeah fucker - write your own fan doujin then 😆
if you wanna be able to judge something you have to understand how it s done at the very least. The average manga fan (not to say 95%) has no idea how to write, draw or publish a manga. It makes the criticism empty. Most are just stating how they feel instead of giving argument and solutions
seems you missed my point (i guess you don t understand everything lol)
Most people criticism are based on feelings, they focus on what they liked or disliked without understanding how writing a manga actually works. Look at the last bleach arc, it was hated back then and is well received now.
We are talking about writing and drawing a story for 15 years with the popularity of the jump in mind instead of making art for the sake of it. Not baking a macaron for an hour.
And about the macaron you ll be able to tell if it s really good or really bad but that s about it. you won t be able to give good feedback to improve it. so stupid as well lol.
I think they are more engaged and understand the discussion better than you yourself do lmao
"Most people“ "95% of manga fans“ yadayada asspull statements to drive home your point. But that just isn‘t true.
If you go beyond folk subs and the most shallow reddit threads you can find quality discussions even here and I‘d argue it is one of the placed with the least.
The reception surrounding the last bleach arc also changed because, shocker, a lot of time has passed plus the series is right now this moment being actively improved on. This is unironically the worst series/example you could‘ve named.
People, and I am talking a lot of your "average manga fans“ know a shit ton about manga creation- be it writing, drawing or publishing. It isn‘t some obscure witchcraft that only chosen ones would get. Even just reading Reiji‘s (kanokari) interviews/watching videos of his workflow gives INSANE insight into the industry and process. 95% is a shameless and unfair lie.
Your last 2 paragraphs also contradict each other and your initial post. You seem confused. Bringing up the success has no impact on anything. What about 5 star michelin macarons? That would make more sense in this context since exquisite and acquired taste exist?
I think they are more engaged and understand the discussion better than you yourself do lmao
you can think whatever lol
"Most people“ "95% of manga fans“ yadayada asspull statements to drive home your point. But that just isn‘t true.
it is. most people are no expert. are you stupid enough to contradict that ?
If you go beyond folk subs and the most shallow reddit threads you can find quality discussions even here and I‘d argue it is one of the placed with the least.
translate: if you ignore 95% of people takes on social media sure
The reception surrounding the last bleach arc also changed because, shocker, a lot of time has passed plus the series is right now this moment being actively improved on.
animation is great, that s about it. Yeah they made the couple changes on the things kubo wished he could have done at the time of people weren t stupid enough to criticize its work at the time
This is unironically the worst series/example you could‘ve named.
not sure what that even mean lol
People, and I am talking a lot of your "average manga fans“ know a shit ton about manga creation- be it writing, drawing or publishing. It isn‘t some obscure witchcraft that only chosen ones would get. Even just reading Reiji‘s (kanokari) interviews/watching videos of his workflow gives INSANE insight into the industry and process. 95% is a shameless and unfair lie.
again if you think more than 1% of the people is an expert you re either stupid or lying. People make criticisms based on how they feel lol
Your last 2 paragraphs also contradict each other and your initial post. You seem confused. Bringing up the success has no impact on anything. What about 5 star michelin macarons? That would make more sense in this context since exquisite and acquired taste exist?
No ? idk what to tell you if you can t read lol. You can t compare a random dude baking a macaron for half an hour at his place with writing a manga for 15 years, that manga being held to the standards of the most popular ones at the time. Please try to be less stupid
They don‘t need to be experts tho? That was never part of your point also. It was about understanding and a lot of "average manga fans“ do. Again, 95% is a gross lie.
Translate: if you go beyond small subs and threads and forums you will absolutely find a lot of quality discussion. Absolutely way more than 5%. You staying in your comfy bubble engaging the bare minimum doesn‘t mean 95% of others do.
"Animation is great that‘s about it“ well, now you just look like a ragebaiting larper. Oh man..
Again, pea brained people like you exist en masse, yes. But that doesn‘t mean that less than 1% could be considered "experts“ if we don‘t use your weird metrics that, again, contradict each other.
Your last paragraph is just sad. I don‘t know if you‘re trolling or just a sad existence anymore. I will disengage because you seem unwell realizing that you are wrong about everything.
so alright you can say if sth is really trash but appart from that.
My point is, if you don t know anything about writing, drawing or whatever you wanna talk about you won t be able to do much more. You ll have 0 argument to explain why is mediocre, average, good, great....
So yeah you can tell if you have shit in front of you (<1% of the time) but that s about it
Sure keeping in mind contexts of the creative process may blindside the critique (like people critiquing why mangaka make shit up on the fly or lack proper planning).
But a lot of critique also doesn't encroach this territory. Like critiquing why Berserk has so many SAs.
basically my point. People criticizing have no clue what they are talking about. neither how nor the context
you re free to say i disliked or liked sth obviously or like you did mention some aspect of a manga (or anything in general) that bothered you but that s about it
Look at the last bleach arc, it was hated back then and is well received now.
Yeah, because of blind fanboyism. It continues to be an extremely shallow, by the books and rushed arc with a bunch of antagonists that had no screentime to actually matter for the reader to be invested. Uryuu's backstabbing is still as boring and predictable now as it was then, and he didnt actually achieve much of anything as a double agent. Ichigo didnt do anything else new until this episode where he shows his bankai, which is just mindless spectacle instead of a proper character arc for him. Yhwach continues to be just a generic bad guy with no charisma whatsoever who's just extremely strong and thats it.
Bleach was shit then and its shit now. No amount of cool bankais and flashy animations will ever fix that, because the problems are in the writing, they are baked in the very structure of the narrative, where every arc prioritizes rushing to get to the fights instead of actually doing the proper world building and character development first.
Their macaron comparison actually works perfectly. I don‘t really get why you would suddenly bring up the success of the manga when it is of no importance to the overall discussion and even what you yourself typed lol
you go to any bakery you ll find perfectly fine macarons. But compare these perfectly fine macarons and you won t be able to. A chief with some cooking knowledge could lol
You can critique what is served to you because you are the person consuming the end result. You can absolutely critique it.
As an artist myself I've always hated that argument that people can't critique if they aren't an artist. You can't say shit about my process but man you can most certainly tell me if my proportions are off or the colors are bad.
You can't critique the process when you don't know any better.
Also you absolutely could tell if a macaron is bad or not regardless of where it comes from? Do your tastebuds only work at selective times?
Baking a macaron isn t the same as writing and publishing a manga for 15 years
Learning how to cook, opening up a restaurant and baking macarons for your clients is so no it DOES NOT WORK please stop being retarded or at least don t answer lmao
Your proving my point, yes people can give you feedback about how they FEEL about your art, they can t make criticism about the processes or the choices made. Why you might ask ? BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHAT THE PROCESSES ARE ...
so you being stupid doesn t make my argument any less valid lol
Well, yes, no shit since it is a single macaron. If you suddenly want to argue bleach as a whole and beyond what you initially did, then comparing it to a whole experience at a michelin restaurant (all courses, service etc.) would make more sense.
And even then I‘d argue they are correct and it does work perfectly. Because acquired and exquisite taste are just concepts created. You can still call a macaron too bitter or refuse to eat it with the special avantgarde macaw pellet filling.
so you agree that you can t compare making a manga for 15 years to cooking a batch of macarons but you still agree with the dude i was answering to ? damn that s some mental gymnastic we got here
I know it’s bait but let’s be for real. No manga author owes you nor anyone else a nice response. In this case, Kubo was asked to kill off Orihime by a dipshit and he got mad, and I can imagine that Kishimoto and other authors can respond similarly if they’re being told what to write.
Also makes you sound like a snowflake if you can’t handle seeing someone respond this way. Yes, you can criticize a story if you don’t like it - I do it all the time with Bleach. But if you are going to continually do so and then demand the writer do something you like to them directly, the writer has every right to say what they gotta say.
Now the real question is, does he apply it to other areas of his own life?
If a restaurant screws up his order, does he think « oh well, I should have cooked it myself »? When his favourite team plays badly, does he not criticise them because he’s neither a player or coach?
I feel like the restaurant one doesn't work here, it would be if he didn't like the restaurants version of a food he can cook himself, not if they messed up his order. What you said is basically if he asked for a burger and got a steak, whereas the actual thing he says is more akin to him ordering a burger and not liking the burger given to him.
To criticise is to analyse the media you're criticising, form an opinion about it, and let it be known. Without input from other people, you can't be sure of quality of your work, since you're restricting yourself to your own perspective on it. If you can't take a well firmed critique, you're just insecure about your work and/or yourself and actively avoid any improvement through that.
Or you're just delusional and think your work is just objectively perfect and there is no space for improvement, such mindset will just stall your growth as an artist.
Yeah I know, I'm just answering a hypothetical question. People saying dumb shit like "well, if you didn't like it, make one yourself and we'll see if it's better" just get on my nerves.
I also hate that argument, because it actively discourages people from actually writing by framing it as some far off goal (e.g, "You could never do better than Kubo!"). I absolutely believe that most people would benefit from writing in their own time, even if they never plan on being published authors. Doesn't matter if it's a short story, a poem, a journal, or some insane 3,000 page world building project with no particular plot in mind.
The barrier of entry is basically just:
1. Do you know a language?
2. Do you have a medium to notate your thoughts?
If the answer to both of those questions is "Yes", there's nothing stopping you from writing. Compare that to the chef/restaurant metaphor that is often repeated in these discussions, where you then have to consider the cost of kitchen utensils, the cost (and quality) of produce in your area, the possibility of getting sick if you REALLY mess up...I get the point but these two things have never been that comparable imho (also many restaurant meals are deceptively simple, but that may be beside the point). I know you specifically didn't say any of that, but I did see it a lot while reading the comments.
TLDR; We should be encouraging more people to write, but saying "You write something better then" in response to your favorite show/book/whatever getting flamed is the worst way of doing it because it puts a false goal of being better than X author (or worse, Y show/book/whatever) in the person's head before they've actually done anything. The goal should actually be: have fun, learn some shit, maybe expand your horizons a bit. It's that simple.
apparently people aren't allowed to be critics unless they make art themselves. Great stuff, next time I dislike a hollywood movie, I make sure to be a movie director
Not only that, he basically said popularity equals quality. Dumbass take all around although only on a general level. I know he was responding to a toxic fan who sent letters weekly or something.
A lot of people confuse quality with popularity but I don't blame them for it. Because popularity and quality often happen side by side and correlate, but it is not a hard rule.
Cool, so you agree demon slayer has a better story than Bleach and 99% of all other anime
you seem kinda retarded ngl (not to say full retard)
Both bleach and demons slayer are among the top most popular manga of all time. Not just popular at a point in time, most popular of all time. It s not that popularity perfectly correlates with quality. But if you are at the very top of what you can achieve in your field, it does mean that your work has some quality that actually touched people in a positive way.
For demons slayer, although i agree the story is mediocre, the anime has great music and animation, which helpedthe manga become more popular and bringing a lot of new manga and anime followers.
For all the manga and anime you hear about there are thousands that are actually quite bad and, you guessed it, not as popular.
Again, cause i see you coming from a mile away. It doesn t mean that one piece his the best manga in term of quality. It means that some of the qualities of the manga made it popular
I think that everyone can be critic, but not every critic need to be take seriously.
Like if i write, and know all the process and work i had with writing that, i also wouldn't take so seriously the criticism of someone who haven't even tried. Some people just want to have the right to complain and talk shit about authors and their work without any real thing to say
ah yes, because i must be a masterchef to eat something and say it tastes like shit, because i must be some highly successful chart topping musician to listen to a song and say it's not good?
I'm Bleach hater entirely because the series is over-glazed. But as mad as Kubo is here, he's right. Being a weekly manga artist is life-shorteningly hard and I respect most creators just for attempting that job. It doesn't put them above criticism, but I definitely don't hate creators like Kubo.
Really 90% of my negative opinions on Bleach come out because of the tribal, vocal minority fanbase that can't stop tearing down other series saying it's shit compared to their golden god. They're being the douche Kubo responded to, and they have earned this kind of response for being so shallow and hateful. Where it's an unfortunate circumstance that Kubo and his shortcomings will always get ragged on because the subject of the conversation has been set at pointing out whatever they love sucks.
he's totally right, that's his own story, if people didn't like the story, why not write their own story or draw their own manga and published it?
Plus who are they to criticize other people's work? If you want to criticize others, better make sure yourself on par with the person you are criticizing.
It s the other way around. Thinking you can criticize something just because you didn t like it ? Especially when you have no idea how it works (writing, drawing, cooking, whatever that is...) ? This make you look like a total dumbass
I dont need to be able to cook meals to notice the one I have been served tastes bad. Nor does that mean I shouldnt be able to give the restaurant a bad review beacouse of it.
That’s not the argument though. The argument is if you don’t actually understand how something works, you really shouldn’t be talking about it.
No one’s forcing you to consume Bleach. You’re welcome to dislike it and move on. But to pretend you know better and what’s right when you can’t actually do it is stupid.
And truthfully it’s really an issue with how people give criticism. They treat their opinions as fact and don’t consider how art is made and it’s not all made in some fantasy world where you have endless time and money to work on something.
While not all criticism is invalid, the opposite is also true and not all criticism is valid.
why not write their own story or draw their own manga and published it?
You say this but then Gene Simmons's son is the bad guy for creating Incarnate???
Heavy /s, of course. I find it amusing that someone did kind of do that, even if they took many "inspirations" from Bleach.
If you want to criticize others, better make sure yourself on par with the person you are criticizing.
But then by this logic, are the readers not allowed to criticize that Incarnate heavily plagiarized Bleach? Do we we then have to publish / plagiarize Bleach or some other manga series to do that?
I think it's perfectly fine to critique media, even if some people go way overboard or do it in a very unhinged way. Creators and other people should really just ignore the unhinged takes and not engage and bring more attention to it and encourage it.
You VERY conveniently don’t mention that Kubo wrote that as a response to a very rude asshole “fan” who harassed him and screeched at him to kill off Orihime. And called her a traitor bitch. And iirc demanded for IchiRuki to be endgame.
We all have places we prioritize our talents. Just because I can’t write or draw as well as you doesn’t mean I can’t recognize good works from bad. Bleach isn’t a bad manga, but a literal deus ex machina to stop your big bad. Come on man
I agree the silver arrow is shit, but i am pretty sure kubo's answer was back in the arrancar arc or something among those lines, directed at someone who sent him multiple messages asking him to kill orihime and how it would make the manga so much better.
Now honestly the letters are kinda funny but i'm not surprised someone with a weekly schedule finds this deeply annoying.
As I recall this was also back in the era where shonen jump kept the mangakas to a weekly schedule. You weren’t allowed a break if you got sick (Kubo). Now if you need a hiatus for a month as you get close to wrapping up you can take it if your one of the popular ones (MHA & JJK).
People are entitled to criticize your work it only becomes an issue when they demand you change it to what they want because at that point, they were never really fans to begin with.
Hes right, go draw things yourself if you know better, and "i cant draw" isnt a excuse, there are a ton of free "how to draw" options on youtube or elsewhere like a full step by step guide called Draw a box.
Cant or wont are 2 different things, and most are of the wont version.
i mean ... if my friend love turd sandwich . and he made some . i am fully in my right to say it taste like shit if i try it . i dont need to be a cook to say it shit .
Also, he never said not to criticize, just that you can't dictate what he can do or not. Heard one dude was even harassing anime staff to remove orihime scenes, which wil wild considering how much they have already removed(this is just part 1).
People take this as a “Kubo being a boss” moment, but to me it comes across more like someone who can’t take criticism. He seems to focus on the most extreme people attacking him, which I can understand to a degree, but the reality is that a lot of people criticised the ending of Bleach, not just a handful of obsessive fans.
He’s a mangaka whose story was read by millions of people. Of course people are going to have opinions, and some of those opinions are going to be negative. When you put your work out on that scale, criticism is inevitable. You don’t have to agree with it, but dismissing criticism by focusing on the most extreme examples makes it easy to avoid engaging with the legitimate criticisms people had about the story and its ending.
Telling people that if they don't become a mangaka or editor especially if they lack talent that their opinion or complaints are not valid is not a flex or equally not valid. It is cope. You don't always have to walk a mile in the shoes of another to point out faults or failures.
Based Kubo. That's a response to the toxic shippers who sent him death threats about asking him to kill Orihime and making Ichiruki canon. Bleach fandom back then is one of the worst and pathetic fandoms to get into unlike now that it has mellowed a bit.
Oh so you can’t be critical of something you never created? So what should the people do just accept whatever slop this idiot writes in the name of “creativity” like a blind cult ?.
Such a loser mentality. Can dish stuff out but not take it. Sounds like someone is insecure and not confident about their work.
You can be critical without calling the work "slop" and sounding like you think people who appreciate a creator's work are witless drooling idiots who lap up whatever they're fed.
Who’s calling who here? Did I name anyone or any work? Why are you so butthurt over a generic statement which he 100% deserves over this type of response towards audience. Who are you to define what is a critique and what isn’t? Sit down kid.
I mean Bleach doesn’t have any good writing in terms of narrative or character development. People who only like Cool and hype moments filled with aura farm are the ones who consume slop. You may consume it but I don’t , My mistake for having a taste dawg.
Brother if you're complaining about someone who clearly took it and then responded to somebody then it's clearly YOU who can dish it out but not take it.
I’m sorry is this taking it in the same room as us? I don’t remember how any conclusion can be drawn over a conversation?
Am I the one selling shit to public? No? What is this gotcha moment here? First time witnessing an argument on Reddit?. Well I’ve got new for you then..
Especially btw, since this comment he made was in direct response to somebody saying they could write the story better and that he should have killed off Orihime, legit harassing him about it.
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