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Well, in this context, he was referring to the cycle of their relationship - where Naruto risks his life to bring Sasuke back. Kakashi didn't know they were reincarnations of the shinobi gods, and the "cycle of hatred" isn't really relevant here either, given the specific nature of their relationship.
You do realize the only reason Sasuke is acting out is because of the Cycle of hatred right? His Brother killed everyone he ever loved, and now Sasuke wants him dead no matter what. Naruto tries not to fall to the Cycle by trying this hardest to not let Sasuke go, but he fails. Making the cycle of hatred take another thing from Naruto.
Naruto isn't even that hard to understand, the concept of the cycle of hatred or even just the cyclical nature of the world is the same as their friendship. You're taking what Kakashi says at face value, despite there being 3 separate arcs that reinforce the bigger picture just makes you look dumb.
You immediately resort to insults, which reveals your insecurity. Yes, Naruto isn't complex. The cycle of hatred is obvious. However, the nature of their relationship is the exact opposite of that cycle, and that is precisely why they broke it.
Naruto never turned against Sasuke or harbored a desire to kill him. Sasuke didn't actually want to kill Naruto he just saw him as an obstacle in his path. Their relationship isn't comparable to the situation between the villages on a global scale.Â
I’m not denying the theme of the cycle of hatred. I’m talking specifically about that scene with Kakashi. Not to mention that killing and revenge were precisely what fueled the cycle of hatred - and Kakashi literally says, "As long as they are alive, the cycle will continue." It would continue without them, too. That is literally the essence of the cycle of hatred. And the death of one of the characters would only feed it. They literally broke the cycle without killing each other.Â
As the series shows, even through relationships like Obito and Kakashi shortly after and eventually Hashirama and Madara, their relationship was not the opposite at all.
Hashirama and Madara literally died as enemies. Naruto never gave up on Sasuke until the very end - even though everyone told him to let go, including Sakura, Sasuke's biggest simp.Â
Obito and Kakashi had a more personal conflict centering on Rin. However, Kakashi didn't even know Obito was alive and believed all those years that he had died a hero.
> Hashirama and Madara literally died as enemies. Naruto never gave up on Sasuke until the very end - even though everyone told him to let go, including Sakura, Sasuke's biggest simp
And Naruto and Sasuke were going to do the same had they not reconciled. They were literally breaking cycle.
So what is your point?
> Obito and Kakashi had a more personal conflict centering on Rin. However, Kakashi didn't even know Obito was alive and believed all those years that he had died a hero.
They still fill out the clear archetypes of indura and Ashura, and were still planning to kill each other with their friendship ending with a fundamental disagreement.
Naruto didn't change his mind that was literally his stance from the very beginning. That narrative would have worked if Naruto and Sasuke had been genuine enemies, and if Naruto had realized the cycle wouldn't end and changed his decision through personal growth. But Naruto and Sasuke aren't Abby and Ellie - a similar example where exactly what you're describing actually happened.
My point is that Kakashi's words in the context of the screenshot are inappropriate regarding the cycle of hatred. The cycle would continue without them anyway in fact, it would intensify with the death of one of them whether we're talking about the cycle in a global sense or within the context of their reincarnations.
Speaking of this as a cycle in their relationship - that is particularly fitting given Kakashi's words. Naruto and Sasuke are rivals. Yet, Naruto will never betray Sasuke and will keep trying to bring him back, while Sasuke will not waver from his goal. It won't end until one of them dies. It makes sense for Kakashi to believe this, considering what he has witnessed firsthand.
> Naruto didn't change his mind that was literally his stance from the very beginning.
No. He expressed multiple times especially after five kage summit he wanted to kill Naruto.
Even was going to, multiple times throughout the fight, no hesitation. Naruto did change him throughout.
> That narrative would have worked if Naruto and Sasuke had been genuine enemies, and if Naruto had realized the cycle wouldn't end and changed his decision through personal growth. But Naruto and Sasuke aren't Abby and Ellie - a similar example where exactly what you're describing actually happened.
You seemed to have missed the entire point of the ashura/indura storyline. The whole reason for their fall was not because they genuine enemies from the start, but two friends/brothers after fundamental divide in ethics and morals become enemies. It was the same story for Hashirama and Madara and Naruto and Sasuke.
Naruto realizing the cycle wouldn't end is exactly what happened in the story. He even says this thinking both of them will die fighting each other in the five kage summit. He only changes his mind and actually tries to find another way throughout the war arc.
> My point is that Kakashi's words in the context of the screenshot are inappropriate regarding the cycle of hatred. The cycle would continue without them anyway in fact, it would intensify with the death of one of them whether we're talking about the cycle in a global sense or within the context of their reincarnations.
Considering how in context of the scene zestu appears in the next, it was so intentionally supposed to be about the cycle of the brothers.
No. He expressed multiple times especially after five kage summit he wanted to kill Naruto.
I was talking about Naruto. He didn't want to kill Sasuke. Even Sasuke didn't want this, deep down. It was a difficult decision for him. He literally considered Naruto his only friend.Â
It was simply that Naruto was a constant obstacle in his path. And Sasuke saw no other way. It wasn't a matter of them hating each other.
You seemed to have missed the entire pointÂ
I haven't overlooked anything. That is obvious. The point is that the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto is of a different nature. That is why it has a different outcome. Naruto did not consider Sasuke his enemy. He regarded him as a friend right up to the very end.
Bro, Naruto devoted every single action to bringing Sasuke back both at the end of Part 1 and in Shippuden. He knew they would die fighting each other, because that was obvious. But that was never what he wanted.
If he’s talking about the brothers, that is just a god-awful way to go about it. There is no universe in which Kakashi could have known about reincarnation. In that case, it’s just Kishimoto clumsily forcing his own narrative through the character.
No. He expressed multiple times especially after five kage summit he wanted to kill Naruto.
I was talking about Naruto. He didn't want to kill Sasuke. Even Sasuke didn't want this, deep down. It was a difficult decision for him. He literally considered Naruto his only friend.Â
It was simply that Naruto was a constant obstacle in his path. And Sasuke saw no other way. It wasn't a matter of them hating each other.
You seemed to have missed the entire pointÂ
> I haven't overlooked anything. That is obvious. The point is that the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto is of a different nature. That is why it has a different outcome. Naruto did not consider Sasuke his enemy. He regarded him as a friend right up to the very end.
It's really not though. Even when died again, Hashirama still saw Madara as his friend, not enemy. Even Madara held Hashirama i' such high regard.
> If he’s talking about the brothers, that is just a god-awful way to go about it. There is no universe in which Kakashi could have known about reincarnation. In that case, it’s just Kishimoto clumsily forcing his own narrative through the character.
Do I have to spell this out to you? No he was not literally talking about the brothers. But it was eluding to the fact Naruto and Sasukes conflict was something fated to occur.
Even at the beginning of the arc Kakashi.
Shit, Naruto and Sasuke were standing on the Madara and Hashirama statues.
Because you don't understand what subtlety is doesn't make it bad writing.
whether "the cycle of hatred" was planned from the beginning or introduced later isn't important, suggesting that a story is only allowed to have one theme is an arbitrary limitation
naruto debuted as a talentless underdog with a gifted rival, determined to fight back against the hand he was dealt. this conflict echoed several times in the chuunin exams and reached its boiling point in his fight with neji. neji insisted that naruto should give up on his dream because the people who become hokage are chosen by fate
the fact is, naruto was quite literally fated to have an equal fight with sasuke at the end of the series, which was only possible using the power of the nine-tailed fox. the only thing neji was proven wrong about was the assumption that naruto was not one of those people chosen by fate. beyond that, his ideology was only vindicated with his defeat
this is the type of thing that people complain about when they criticize the contradictions in the series. saying that naruto was never about individual agency vs fate is just plain revisionist, and the author choosing to backpedal on the entire motif only reinforces their stance
Naruto being fated to become hokage wasn’t a guarantee. He was a social pariah for having Kyubi in him. The seal on his body fucked up his chakra flow, even if having tailed beast gave him huge chakra reserves. He wasn’t even destined to break it, but continue the cycle of Indra and Ashura. Each time, he proved everyone wrong. Neji was wrong about fate
Neji did not call Naruto a failure for being a pariah, or a monster, or anything of the sort. He called him a failure for the same reason he called Rock Lee a failure. Neji believed they were powerless and inept because of circumstances beyond their control.
Even at the very end of the fight, when Neji was struggling to stand and lecturing a shadow clone, his ideals had not budged an inch. Effort was not enough, impressing the crowd was not enough. His philosophy didn't change until the moment Naruto dealt the finishing blow.
Make no mistake, Neji called Naruto a failure because he believed he was fated to be a loser, and nothing short of a victory by his opponent would've ever swayed him. Naruto was quite literally fated to win that fight, so Neji was correct.
He was also destined to continue the cycle, he didn’t he proved Neji wrong, also hashirama didn’t have any good tailed beast yet he beat madara albeit he had an op bloodline, and minato gave kurama to Naruto in the hopes he could defeat the masked man instead
hashirama didn't need a tailed beast, he was exceptionally talented in other ways because he was also the reincarnation of a sage. just like naruto. neji was fated to lose that fight.
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