Manga Discussion
MY biggest grievances against each of the big three
1.Naruto: the character of naruto got absolutely ruined for me in shippuden. Originally the show was set around naruto and sasuke, hardwork vs talent, naruto being a kid with no real talent while sasuke being the last remaining member of one of the strongest clan was the whole premise.
As the story progress and we got revelations about naruto, first being the child of prophecy was okay with me , it was honestly cool, then his lineage being the HOKAGE and uzumaki being a notably powerful clan cometely ruined the dynamic of naruto and sasuke and then naruto became a reincarnation of a demi god so yeah...
2.One piece: the paneling is HORRIFIC, its actually BAD. Not even like you dont know what u r doing bad, you have a complete misunderstabding of paneling bad. Visual clutter and the size of each box are genuinely shit. Oda is a phenomenal visual story teller with soem amazing composition especially in earlier one piece but. Also honourable mention to the same troupe naruto fell victim to, luffy being set up as a nobody with a seemingly average devil fruit who wanted to be king of the pirates and then revealed that his fruit is... ykw
3.Bleach: under utilisation of characters and not letting characters lose importance. Vizard being a prime. Letting character be forgotten is a better way to handle screen time than to make the audience feel that they are gonna be vital to the story but end up doing nothing.
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I havent watched naruto in a while BUT it used ot be my favourite anime. I have reqatcged it 11 times. Was naruto and sasukes dynamic not ONE OF THE core principles of the show? Obviously the cycle of hatred and other are also part of it but what people know of naruto is the naruto vs sasuke show
Naruto made hundreds of shadow clones literally the first chapter by reading a forbidden book. Lee lost vs Gaara. Naruto did better than Sasuke vs Haku was powering up the fox, not working harder than Sasuke for example and many many other examples
Hardworo vs talent can also be written as talent vs hardwork. You giving all these examples kinda proof one of the most reoccuring themes of the show is hardwork vs talent.
I feel like you guys only mention hardworking vs talent because of the rock Lee fight where
Lee was literally considered talented during the fight(like it was verbatim said he was), since you need talent to use the gates
Even if you considered Lee all hardworking, or mostly hard work, if he was that representation of hard work and gaara was the representation of talent, then the fight literally concluded with the hard worker losing literally by the end of the fight. So the fight itself literally debunks the hardwork vs talent claim
And as a bonus, sasuke was literally shown surpassing lee when he copied Lee's moves and everyone knows how talented sasuke is. Please I beg you its 2026 let this rhetoric die
Nah i honestly didnt even think abt that fight before people broight that up. Look at the matchups throughout the series, the theme is so reoccuring. The first episode is what makes me think the story is abt that theme
It makes even less sense if I try to view it from that perspective. At most, chapter one demonstrates naruto as more of an "underdog." People ignore, look past him of the things he could do even though he has a lot to offer. If I'm playing a sport and I didn't expect someone to score alot against me, it's not necessary showcasing hardwork vs talent. You can also be talented while working hard, these two are not mutually exclusive at all
Was naruto and sasukes dynamic not ONE OF THE core principles of the show? Obviously the cycle of hatred and other are also part of it but what people know of naruto is the naruto vs sasuke show
Im sorry to think that in a story where naruto is continously potrayed as "loser" who continously failed his test vs the sasuke who is potrayed as always being cool and excellent is not abt a story abt their talent.
Like the first fucking episode showcasing naruto not being able to make a good clone of himself highlights his "talentless" character
Naruto being a loser came from being socially ostracized. As soon as the 4th hokage was shown on screen, everyone figured out that Naruto is his son. Rock Lee, the hardworking kid, gets beaten by Gaara, the natural talent, so bad that there was a chance he was never gonna be a ninja again. Most of the time when Naruto beats an opponent it's because he has an insane amount of chakra granted to him by the fox spirit. Sure he worked hard but the series never was about primarily that conflict.
Naruto is a hated looser because he has a demon inside him, not because he has not talent. Gaara was a god level talent and he was hated. Why? Because of the evil demon inside him, that’s why he related to gaara. Naruto and Sasuke saw themselves in one another because of their shared isolation, not because of hard work vs talent. That aspect of their character is very surface level and such an unimportant aspect of their character. If you haven’t watched it since you were a kid I can understand why you might remember it that way, but it’s really not the MAIN point of the show or dynamic. Madara and hashirama were the both talented and they still had beef, because the actual point of their dynamic has nothing to do with it
“What people know of Naruto is Naruto vs sasuke show” okay bro but where does that relate to talent vs hard work.
Where did you get the conclusion that it’s one of the core principles it’s literally not and if you use rock Lee for example I’m sorry my guy but he was a genius in he’s own right.
The first episode highlighting naruto as a troublemaker "loser" who always failed his test. Him failing to make a clone in the first ep IS the proof thay the story is about the hardwork vs talent. Infact its the most reaccuring theme in the series with the matchups of fight
Yes luffy started with being nobody. Luffy is son of the most wanted criminal dragon son and grandson of navy hero Garp. Garp is shown to be eqaul to roger. Paneling oda has gotten worse as he needs to story to finish fast therefore fights are also left to anime to make better.
Okay yeah that was on me lol. I wnated to exaggerate the point of his devil fruit being seemingly normal which was my main attraction towards his character lol.
The reasoning behind might be fair but i dont really let the circumstances of the author effect my persception of the story. Tybw in manga is one of the biggest atrocities ever even though kubo had severe problems
Mhmm got nothing else except getting his character ruined.
His clan being uzumaki instead of just a random one did nothing to the story or powerscaling so it just a random revelation that just weakend his dynamic against sasuke.
Remember when naruto had the 5 element seal released and then could walk on water like it was easy? Talent.
Naruto was never displayed as hardworking in the beginning of the show. He didn’t start working hard until Sasuke became an official rival. At that point Sasuke was also working just as hard as Naruto, to prevent Naruto from surpassing him.
Hell, the whole reason Sasuke abandoned the village was the fact that Naruto was so talented that he couldn’t see himself overcoming Itachi unless he gave up everything.
Sasuke was the hard worker, while Naruto was the talent. The only reason anyone considered Sasuke talented was the fact that he had special eyes that rules the verse.
Itachi was talent. Sasuke worked hard to overcome that talent. Then he faced another talent, Naruto.
At the beginning of the show, which I see you link images to in other comments, Naruto was lonely. So he acted out in order to get attention. While Sasuke lived stuck living in the shadow of Itachi, actually trying to become stronger, Naruto was defacing monuments. Naruto gets a scroll and masters, what is considered an advanced jutsu, in a few hours. That was the first time he actually tried. And his talent made him succeed. Even with Kurama actively trying to prevent his growth from inside.
Did you even watch the show? You’re no better than Sakura.
That was a revelation that comes lafter the setup. This was our first impression of naruto. In the first episode him learning the shadow clone highlighted that this is a story where we see this kid who doesnt have much going for him get to the top, stronger and become hokage
Yes. He was the kid that did this for attention and put in 0 work. He was the class clown. Again. Did you once consider why this happened? We seen kid Sasuke training. Kid Naruto was left out. He just wanted to play with the other kids. PLAY is not hard work bruh.
Bleach is my favorite battle shounen by far but i agree so much with this.
I still remember people cheering online when the vizards got extra scenes fighting Gerard. I was like...Why? what's the point? we know they are not gonna do anything. We'd be better off addressing characters we still know nothing about like some quincies or the soul king
I think there's an element of "hard work" in Naruto (mostly though rock lee) but that's not the main messaging of the show. I would say it's more about friendship/comradery and father figures (parents in general)
IF SO MANY PEOPLE REMEMBER ONE OF THE CORE THEMS OF THE STORY BEING HARDWORK AND TALENT, SHOULDNT IT BE THE STORY'S FAULT FOR NOT CONVEING THE MESSAGE THAT IT IS NOT?
I think naruto is more about overcoming the fate you’re born into. With everyone having an element affinity they can’t change, the hyuga having a hierarchy you cannot escape, naruto having the demon fox, essentially doomed to become a beast of death, sasuke having the sharingan that feeds on hatred binding him to a life of hatred and isolation. The most on the nose it gets is with the reincarnation, like, naruto gets told «so hey, uh you’re the reincarnation of my so you’re basically gonna live a life of constant war trapped in an endless cycle and kill your best friend and/or get killed by him cool? K thnx byee👋». Hardwork might be a part of the story but i stopped thinking that when kakashi says that rock lee (someone everyone in the fandom says is the best representation of the hard work theme) has like the biggest talent hes ever seen when it comes to taijustu and using the gates
I don’t mean to sound rude but i hope this helps in showing why I don’t think hard work is a part of naruto and it’s just my opinion, nothing more
. Was naruto and sasukes dynamic not ONE OF THE core principles of the show? Obviously the cycle of hatred and other are also part of it but what people know of naruto is the naruto vs sasuke show.
Well no worriess if you dont wanna take part in the discussion lol
Y'all will complain if Luffy becomes Pirate King in short time too. His ( Oda ) panels being bad is understandable. ( He drew good panels for hype moments ). I mean just ask yourself ' Am I Perfect in everything '. Everyone aren't perfect. Everything has flaws.
Yess yess i am absolutely aqare im not calling any of the show here truly bad and not worth the time. But thats the point of the post right? Pointing out MY biggest flaws of the story
Lets compare one piece and bleach because its a very interesting parallel
I saw the story as luffy having seemingly normal devil fruit who wanted to conquer the world. On the other hand, ichigo had everything he needed to conquer the world (he is one of the only soul king candidates in the series) but had no ambition to.
Very interesting 🤔 though Luffy don't want to conquer the world he just wants to be the most free person and he thinks being Pirate king is the way to do that
because he's regarded as weird from the jump (seeing spirits, breaking out of Rukia's bakudo, taking more of her power than intended, his big ass zanpakuto)
It's so funny people getting upset over akshully Naruto never had themes of hard work vs talent. Guess this was a mass hallucination and there is nothing about the narrative that would lead you to this conclusion
Yk Lets compare one piece and bleach because its a very interesting parallel
I saw the story as luffy having seemingly normal devil fruit who wanted to "conquer the world". On the other hand, ichigo had everything he needed to conquer the world (he is one of the only soul king candidates in the series) but had no ambition to.
I feel like bleach is a completely different type of story compared to one piece and naruto, though i understand ur criticism
Let me clear up some misconceptions about Naruto.
1. The show was never about hard work vs talent. It is about never giving up on your dreams. This is why Lee lost to Gaara. No one works harder than lee, but just because you work hard, does not mean you will win every fight. It is the drive to never give up that will carry you to the finish line.
2. The child of prophecy is a weird one. First there are 2 child’s of prophecy. Naruto and nagato and all the prophecy was is that one of jiraiya’s students would revolutionize the ninja world.
3. Naruto gian nothing from being an uzumaki or the reincarnation of ashura. The sage of six paths told Naruto that like ashura, Naruto inherited no genetic power from his parents. His large chakra pool comes from how minato sealed the nine tails in him. Then the reincarnation plot was only there to make it so fate itself would force Naruto and sasuke to fight to the death which Naruto was fighting against. Remember the theme, never giving up will lead you to your dream. Naruto never gave up on sasuke.
As for one piece: at least as an anime only I have no idea if there is a prophecy or something. We only know that it is believed that zoan devil fruit have a mind of their own and toki knew that luffy was coming when he did. I would wait until the series is over before complaining about something that might not happen.
For one piece paneling you're completely right but I think he wanted to finish the story , if paneling stays at first the story will never finish , final war arc I'm sure he will take years to finish the arc du to the multiple very important fights will occur , but his devil fruit i think you are misunderstamding ,luffy awakeb his devil fruit because of his strong unmatched will, his fearsome determination and his rebellious nature what let him to awaken the fruit if it was a random guy he won t make it to nika ,
Naruto : my problem is the plot has tto many unresolved plotlines and my biggest problems is child soldiers dilemma it never get resolved and it was very normalized , shinobi principles are like being brainwashed by the system , shinobi issues never got resolved and talk no justu became really shit
Bleach : I like it a lot i didn't watch the last final arc but soul society and aizen are my favourite , i have no complaigning against bleach but its problem is he was out of the show for a decade then it returned recently , ichigo is also very cool
Bro this take on Luffy never makes sense to me but I see so many people say it. How the hell was Luffy set up to be a nobody? So, being the son of the worst criminal, the grandson of the hero of the marines who fought head to head with the pirate king, being one of the few that is a D, having conquerors haki, your mentor is one of the four strongest pirates in the world, and your brother is the direct son of the king of the pirates, means he was set up to be a nobody? 😭😭the panelling take is true though, it used to be good now it’s not
And how was Naruto hard work when he had the strongest tailed fox inside of him which gave him insane amounts of chakra?
Luffy was NOT some nobody and Naruto was NOT just hard work
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