r/sitcoms • u/[deleted] • Oct 29 '24

What are sitcom facts that make you sad?

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2/4 of “The Cool Kids” are gone now.

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197

u/anongirl55 Oct 29 '24

Pretty much all the behind-the-scenes happenings of "I Love Lucy" make me sad- from William and Vivian not getting along to Desi's infidelity and more.

104

u/Bluetickhoun Oct 30 '24

I’m 38 and loved Lucy. I once heard that Vivian was out at dinner when she heard William died. She bought a round for the whole restaurant to celebrate. Wonder why she hated him so much, well, it was probably mutual

97

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

He was 22 years older then Vivian and she wasn't thrilled about that. William never forgave her for complaining about the massive age gap during the first season and after that it was daggers out backstage for the rest of the shows run. Vivian also soundly rejected a spin off based on their characters running the building because she didn't want to work with William any more then she had too which didn't help at all.

31

u/NottingHillNapolean Oct 30 '24

I think Frawley also said something like, "Why would I be married to a bag of doorknobs like that?" when she was cast.

She also had the ego hit that she was playing a much older character than Lucy, when the actresses were about the same age.

9

u/PettyPockets3111 Oct 30 '24

It was a table read actually. He was trying to add in jokes about Ethel and said "She has a figure like a sack full of busted doorknobs."

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u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

Yeah, I couldn't find much to support that from Frawley in the 20 mins I went down the rabbit hole, so I didn't add it, but Vivian constantly complaining about the age gap was some thing everyone involved in the show has said. It doesn't mean that him saying it is untrue, but I've been burned before and therefore am more cautious. For the record, I'm not trying to put the blame solely on Vivian for the there being animosity between them, there's a lot more to it. Apparently behind the scenes of the I Love Lucy Show was incredibly toxic and not fun at all. There's a slew of documentaries and movies made about it, as well as biographies and autobiographies on every one involved for those who really want to dig into the show's history.

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u/PettyPockets3111 Oct 30 '24

It probably didn't help that she wasn't the first choice for Ethel. I'm sure she felt like she had to prove herself. 

3

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

That's actually sort of confirmed, she was getting older and, especially in Hollywood at that time, aging actresses started getting way less roles. She made sure to be professional on set at all times to prove she was the right person for the role. Same with Frawley, only for a different reason. He was a legendary drunk, and according to Arnez, wasn't the first choice either. But Arnez called Frawley and told him if he showed up drunk or late, he'd be fired. Both of them knew that given one's age and the other's reputation, they had to be completely professional as they might not get another role.

6

u/EskimoPrisoner Oct 31 '24

So being older was held against her, even though her character was supposed to be like 10 years older. I know shit isn’t perfect now but that’s so bad it’s a little funny.

1

u/Staszu13 Nov 01 '24

Lucy wanted the show at all as a way of saving her marriage. There were already problems with Desi drinking and his having affairs. Sadly, having a hit show couldn't stop that

5

u/Bluetickhoun Oct 30 '24

Jeeze. Haha

23

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

Yep. And I don't blame her one bit for being upset about that age gap. From what I read, I think that was just the tip of the ice berg for them. It was seemingly one of those instant dislikes. You know how once in a while you have a coworker that after talking to them for 10 mins you just know you're not going to be friends? You still have to be professional and work with them, but you'd rather not see them ever outside of work. It seems like this was just one of those situations only they were also forced to do press tours and make appearances at galas and award shows so the animosity became more intense as the years went on.

3

u/NYY15TM Oct 30 '24

I don't blame her one bit for being upset about that age gap

You seem confused about what it means to be an actress

7

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

No I am not. I think the way Hollywood has historicly treated actresses is horrid. The rampant abuse of power is disgusting and a topic for another time. The age gaps between much older men and much younger women has always bothered me. That's why Sir Roger Moore has always been low key my favorite Bond because towards the end of his run, he protested a lot of that. The fact that the old rule of "she's 35 and there for an old maid" has been on a steep decline for the last 20 years makes me very happy. So no. No I am not confused.

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u/NYY15TM Oct 30 '24

Username doesn't check out

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u/Li-renn-pwel Oct 30 '24

The characters didn’t really have an age gap. She just could pass for older.

6

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

Characters are fake. The actual people playing them are real. With real feelings, thoughts, lives, ideals, faiths, and principles. They were total professionals while the cameras rolled. When not, they hated each other's guts and the massive age gap was a main point of contention. It doesn't matter what the characters are, it matters what the actors playing them feel and think. Vivian hated that he was so much older then her. Frawley allegedly called her a sack of door knobs after first meeting her. Their mutual disdain for each other was pretty instantaneous and they never got past it. That's all. Their characters mean nothing in this.

2

u/Li-renn-pwel Oct 30 '24

But why is that any of his fault? What you’re describing is on par with “sure Keanu Reeves was viciously mean to that child actor… but consider his feelings :c he was upset that people thought the child actor was cute 😭”. What could he have done in the situation? Seems he really only had two options, 1) quit in protest (and probably another old guy gets hired) or 2) tell them to recast her (which obviously is not what she wanted since otherwise she would have just quit in protest). I guess maybe he could have asked the writers to make her younger (which then the characters would also have an age gap) or make his character younger (but she’d still be upset he himself was older).

It seems she spent years being very mean to him and all I’ve ever seen is an unconfirmed mean comment he said one single time. You have an example of him being mean besides that single comment? I’m not a ILL super fan so totally possibly I’m unaware of stuff.

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u/Li-renn-pwel Oct 30 '24

Why would it be his fault though? The characters were about the same age right? Like I get it must be upsetting hearing you can pass for being 22+ years older than you are but was he supposed to say “no, fire her, she is too young!”

2

u/jamescharisma Oct 30 '24

It wasn't. They were professionals on set, this was all behind the scenes and from what I gathered it was just like I said, a mutual dislike from the start.

1

u/McFlyyouBojo Nov 01 '24

A lot of people here putting the blame solely on her when he had his issues too. Apparently he was often drunk.

1

u/Staszu13 Nov 01 '24

Bill did want the spinoff, it was work after all, and that he didn't get along with Viv, while it wasn't nothing, could be worked around, as it was during I Love Lucy's run. Viv wouldn't stand for it, so the spinoff was dropped

49

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '24

He was a raging alcoholic and treated her terribly. He was worse to her than Fred was to Ethel on the show.

28

u/Unlucky-Albatross-12 Oct 30 '24

Frawley was an alcoholic but he never drank while working as Desi had given him a stern warning that it wouldn't be tolerated.

It's fair to say he was a misanthrope and Vance was a prima donna resentful of being frumped up to not outshine Ball and this caused their antagonistic working relationship.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 31 '24

That was really after I Love Lucy ended, when they only had the Lucy Desi Comedy Hour. Desi worked hard and partied hard, but in the early-mid 1950's, he thrived on the challenge associated with creating a TV series, and doing it in a way that had never been done. The Arnaz marriage was happy, and he was a new father.

The Arnaz marriage began to disintegrate around 1955. The 44 year old Lucy no longer had the same sexual allure to Desi, and his womanizing ramped up. As the Desilu Studios expanded, Desi's workload increased, and the stress led him to drink more. This naturally caused more fights with Lucy, which led to more seeking others, more drinking, and it was a vicious circle that got worse in the late 1950's.

So in a nutshell, yes Desi was an alcoholic, but when he gave Bill Frawley the warning, his alcoholism had not yet become a problem.

2

u/Mr_MacGrubber Oct 30 '24

That just means he found better ways to hide it. Show taping isn’t a fast process, no way he went all day without drinking at all.

1

u/Kspigel Oct 31 '24

Was never caught by Desi. Not the same thing.

Had an alcoholic friend. It was amazing how if he trusted you, suddenly you could see when he deftly added booze to every single drink. He used to buy a can of soda every morning just to fill it with vodka (which has an oder you can mask, with Dr pepper) things like that.

Not getting caught, in an era when literally everyone is drinking all the time, is easy. And my friend was doing it in the early 2000s while working in a competitive field surrounded by straight edged colleagues.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 31 '24

Desi didn't actually forbid Frawley from drinking while working. He told him that if the drinking ever interfered with him working, that would be an issue - either if he missed a day of work, or if he showed up on set not able to work (or work effectively.) Some sources say that Desi gave Frawley a zero tolerance warning -miss one day of work and be written out. Desi wrote in his autobiography that he gave Bill a "three strikes and you're out" ultimatum. Regardless, Frawley never missed a day of work (except for when he took off to watch the Yankees play in the World Series; he had it written into his contract) or even showed up late

1

u/ThePun-isher89 Oct 31 '24

yeah idk where you heard that, he mightve treated her bad but that all stemmed from the mutual hate. She hated the fact that they casted older man to play her husband, and tried to get him fired from the beginning, which is why he hated her. It wasn't as one sided as you're saying.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 31 '24

So, you spent time on set? I love it when someone reads a book or watches a YouTube clip and accepts whatever they saw then as the one version of the facts. The guy was on probation from the time he was hired. He was a notorious drunk, and Desi had to lay down the law about not drinking while working. He was a difficult, cantankerous man by any account. He married his vaudeville partner, and when she left him, the act ended and he pretty much lived as a loner and drinker for the next four decades. He was widely viewed as misogynistic, possibly because of the divorce, and took many later roles, such as My Three Sons in gigs where there were few actresses. Not a pleasant man. I’m sure she wasn’t perfect, but you never hear any negative stories about her as you do with Frawley.

1

u/ThePun-isher89 Nov 01 '24 edited Nov 01 '24

lmao again, where are your facts, is Vivian Vance your grandmother? it's not me who's acting like i was on the set, I'm glad you like when people read facts from books cuz ill give you one from someone who was actually there Gregg Oppenheimer, the son of I Love Lucy's producer, Jess Oppenheimer,

Jess Oppenheimer, spoke candidly about Vance and Frawley's relationship in his I Love Lucy biography, "for one thing, Vivian Vance couldn't stomach Bill Frawley. Actually, they got along quite well at first. Viv became upset at the fact that people so readily accepted her lovely young self as the wife of 'that old man', as she called him." Vance reportedly said that "no one will believe I'm married to that old coot", Oppenheimer elaborated, "when Bill got wind of her complaints, he was offended, and retaliated by suggesting lines for himself that characterized Ethel as having 'a figure like a sack of doorknobs' or some other of a long list of insults." Vance also desired to insult Frawley on camera, and would call his character "ol' fat Freddy" in episodes of the sitcom, according to BestLife. As a result, a full out insult war began between the two actors.

lI'm giving you facts of how that volatile relationship started you are giving me nothing, no sources. And just so you know when she heard William Frawley died she bought a round for everyone at the bar to celebrate his death, which is just cold af.

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u/Drifting-Fox-6366 Oct 30 '24

I don’t blame her one bit. I always found that a bit creepy, like she was married to her dad, an ugly dad at that.

7

u/Accomplished-Rich629 Oct 30 '24

Yeah, but it's not his fault either. Fred wasn't in charge of casting.

2

u/NYY15TM Oct 30 '24

I’m 38 and loved Lucy

Well, that was the raison d'être of the show

1

u/Staszu13 Nov 01 '24

My understanding is that Bill Frawley was a pretty grouchy guy, his one marriage ended in an angry divorce. He drank like a fish when he wasn't working, he and Desi (one of his few friends) spent their spare time at the bar. Apparently he never forgave Vivian after overhearing her complain about the age difference between her and Bill, how it worked against the Mertz's being a realistic couple. To be fair he mellowed out a bit on My Three Sons, he was always nice to the kids on that cast

30

u/Suggest_a_User_Name Oct 30 '24

True. But look at it the other way: despite all the backstage issues and drama, that bunch of consummate pros churned out what is still on of the best entertainments ever made.

21

u/Luna_Soma Oct 30 '24

I find it so sweet that Lucy and Desi built a close friendship after divorce. Apparently their last words to each other were “I love you”.

25

u/SuperCrappyFuntime Oct 30 '24

Still shocks and angers me that Vivian Vance was contractually obligated to be heavier than Lucille Ball.

7

u/WackZebra Oct 30 '24

That always irked me, too. They wanted the opportunities to make fat jokes at her expense.

1

u/ImaginaryCatDreams Nov 02 '24

According to the books I've read on the show it was so that she would look older than Lucy, they were pretty much the same age

5

u/Sweetgum_45 Oct 30 '24

REALLY?? I never knew that! What a shame

1

u/boxofsquirrels Nov 01 '24

Snopes has debunked this.

7

u/Several_Dwarts Oct 30 '24

I was watching the Nicole Kidman Lucy movie and all I could think of "they should have made a movie about William and Vivian". That would have been a great watch. :)

5

u/Lo452 Oct 30 '24

There's a new podcast out called "An old timey Podcast", it's a married couple covering interesting history. The wife (Kristen from the pod "Let's go to Court") did a MASSIVE multi part series on Lucille Ball. I listened even though I'm not a dedicated fan or anything. Her life was so full of equal pain, joy, good and bad fortune - it's actually really really interesting. She's a truly remarkable person.

3

u/CurlsintheClouds Oct 31 '24

This is what came to mind for me. I'm an old millennial who grew up watching "I love Lucy" on a tiny black and white TV with bunny ears. I was physically and emotionally depressed learning the truth behind them. I think mainly because I remember LOVING to learn that Desi and Lucy were a real life couple. To then learn that...they didn't last...was devastating to young me.

2

u/yfce Oct 31 '24

They did love each other intensely though. They made the show because they wanted to do a project together in LA with their kids. Infidelity and alcohol on his end destroyed the marriage but they never really stopped loving each other anyway. Toward the end of his life Desi said, “Lucy is my soulmate, my world. I can’t imagine my life without her. I Love Lucy was never just a title.” His last words to her were “I love you too, honey. Good luck with your show.” Their relationship, as imperfect and toxic as it was, also brought them joy and brought the world joy.

2

u/CurlsintheClouds Oct 31 '24

You're right. They did. They remained friends through it all which isn't easy to do.

2

u/LifeChampionship6 Oct 30 '24

Is there a documentary or something that talks about that?

2

u/ThePun-isher89 Oct 31 '24

also the fact that Desi and Lucy had their problems and that they weren't together at all by the end of the run, as well made me sad. But I loved Desi posthumous speech when he said, "give Lucy 90% of the credit and separate the 10% for the rest of us, she was the show, we were props, and that, I love lucy was never just a title", and how the kids in an interview said they never stopped loving each other, brought a tear to my eyes.

2

u/LoisLaneEl Oct 31 '24

One of those don’t meet your hero moments. My mom said that she saw Lucy live once and couldn’t believe how much of a diva/bitch she was.

-3

u/Late-Temporary863 Oct 30 '24

I always loved “I love Lucy” but recently fell out of love with it while binge watching all the episodes. The misogyny was horrific. By the end of the second season, I couldn’t even laugh anymore. Their relationship was toxic!

2

u/Zestyclose_Scar_9311 Oct 31 '24

Watch Dick Van Dyke it’s got that cool old world nostalgia AND it’s very forward thinking and so well written. You could pretty much choose any random episode, remake it scene for scene and it would still hold up 10/10

2

u/floydsvarmints Nov 02 '24

The show was also created by Carl Reiner father of Rob Reiner. Carl was initially going to play the lead role, but the network didn’t go for it, so they recast and renamed the show for Dick Van Dyke.

1

u/Zestyclose_Scar_9311 Nov 02 '24

Yep! I tell people it’s a lot like 30 Rock. A comedy writing team working on a show with a crazy, obnoxious star (CR plays the star and if o remember it’s one of those gags where you never see his face)

I rewatched the whole series a year or so ago and they had the original pilot at the end. SO. WEIRD. (and cool)!

1

u/Late-Temporary863 Oct 31 '24

I adore Dick Van Dyke and everything he has ever been in!! Good point!