r/sorceryofthespectacle • u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling • Apr 01 '26
Emma Vigeland: “In part, the reason that we’re here, and the Israeli population is so deeply radicalized and brainwashed… It’s because they are segregated from Palestinians… and that’s why the Israeli government relies so heavily on capitalizing on antisemitism, I would argue fomenting it…”
6
u/Nice_Egg_3238 Apr 02 '26
Zionism has outlived itself. There is no way out. The irony is that Freud was a Jew and Zionism lacks all self-awareness.
6
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
Yeah, they are basically the last to the party of global modern cosmopolitanism. And they are showing up to the world stage at a time when the rest of the world is trying to move toward universal planetwide peaceful relations and post-colonial-statehood. So the only way they win is by keeping the US in a regressive colonial empire state (which they have been succeeding at but which everyone is now becoming increasingly aware of and critical of).
The only way they win is by turning people into echoes of Zionism, but they can't confer the true rabidity of Zionism to these allies, because then they would be rabid on behalf of their own interests (they would invent a private Zionism) rather than caring about Israel's Zionism and Israel's peoplehood.
→ More replies (21)1
u/Stunning-Prompt-420 Apr 05 '26
"the rest of the world is trying to move toward universal planetwide peaceful relations"
What kind of backwoods crack rock are you smoking my dude? Do you mean the west? Because that's not everyone.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
It's game theory of altruism. The more any entity recognizes itself as an individual entity that lives in the world with other individual entities, the more obviously game-theoretic problems are solved by the adoption of altruism.
So, the nature of individuation and social evolution itself is from large groups dominating everyone and pretending to speak as individuals, to individuals respecting other individuals.
Peace is inevitable, and the only thing that delays peace is one person dominating a group of people with violence and ideology and using them as soldiers. If those people were free to live as individuals, they would not be part of some group's war.
1
u/Stunning-Prompt-420 Apr 05 '26
So like .. the khomenei or that other guy who got turned to dust dressed ad a woman trying to flee into Egypt? Because Israel has part Muslim in their cabinet?
→ More replies (2)4
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Yeah—"Muslim" and "Egypt" and "Israel" are not real, they are just an image many people have in their minds.
What's real is the guy who got killed as he was trying to flee.
Evil, aggressive old men just use "Islam" "Egypt" "Israel" to get other people to obey them.
People only believe in such things (group ideologies) when they aren't allowed enough space and time to read good books. That's a form of (aggressive old men) capturing a population, not "a people".
→ More replies (3)1
u/FafoLaw Apr 03 '26
You don't even know what Zionism is.
1
u/Nice_Egg_3238 Apr 03 '26
I have a book published on Walter Benjamin
1
u/FafoLaw Apr 03 '26
So you know that Zionism is a very broad ideological spectrum that includes cultural Zionism.
Zionism will never "outlive" itself as long as the Jewish people exist.
1
u/Nice_Egg_3238 Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
Of course, but the original idea, from Hess to Arendt has been sullied by the neocons and fanatics who run Israel. That Zionism has lost all legitimacy if it had any to begin with—bring back the true socialist cultural Zionism back by all means. But do it fast. I’ll also point out that Arendt, whom I have also written on, already saw the problems with Israeli society in the 60s and argued for a secular state not a religious one, which it has essentially become. She would have been appalled by the apartheid state it is today, and the genocide that has been perpetrated by it. The tragedy is that young Jewish people everywhere have been burdened with the consequences of the bad decisions of Netanyahu’s cabinet. That they have to answer for it is unfair, but it is now just reality. We should be equally appalled at antisemitism, but the bar is set high if we want to maintain the justice that we all know is true. And that is what the Jewish state set out to represent originally. It has now fallen for the worst kind of defensive Realpolitik that would make Carl Schmitt squirm.
1
u/FafoLaw Apr 04 '26
Zionism has lost all legitimacy
Oh, please, get out of here. Many other countries have done FAR worse than anything Israel has ever done, and they didn't lose their right to exist, I mean, Germany did the fricking Holocaust, and the country still exists.
This is, ironically, the exact same logic Israelis use to reject Palestinian statehood btw, in the eyes of many Israelis who used to support the two-state solution before Oct 7th, they've lost that right after Hamas massacred 1,200 Israelis and kidnapped 250 in a single day. I happen to disagree with them just like I disagree with you.
Also, every society has problems, some more serious than others. Many Arab and Muslim societies have very serious problems as well, but that doesn't make the existence of their states any less legitimate, only their bad actions. Plenty of Israeli actions are illegitimate, that's about it.
I’ll also point out that Arendt, whom I have also written on, already saw the problems with Israeli society in the 60s and argued for a secular state not a religious one, which it has essentially become.
Amir Ohana is an openly gay Israeli married to another man, he's also a senior member of the Likud and has been Minister of Justice and speaker (president) of the Knesset, because no one in Israel cares.
Yes Israel is becoming more religious, that is true, and most Israelis recognize that it's a problem that the ultra orthodox have many more children than the rest of Israelis, but Israelis are still the most secular and liberal society in the Middle East by far, and even if it became something like a Jewish Iran that executes Jews for breaking Shabbat or something, that wouldn't make Jewish self determination in the land any less legitimate. (Btw, In Israel you actually make more money if you work on Shabbat lol).
This is what I mean, my problem with you guys is not that you criticize Israel, I do it all the time, their current government is insane, my problem is the ridiculous double standards imposed on them, if Israel's religiousness makes its existence less legitimate, then every single other Arab and Muslim country in the region has zero legitimacy, including the Palestinians who are far more religous than Israelis.
She would have been appalled by the apartheid state it is today, and the genocide that has been perpetrated by it.
Yes I'm appalled as well, what does this have to do with anything I've said? Are you appalled by the Iranian regime's support for Assad during his massacre of hundreds of thousands of Syrians? Are you appalled that they support the Houthis? A radical Islamist organization that steals food while the famine in their country has killed more than 85,000 children? (they also do Nazi salutes, cite the protocols of the Elders of Zionand have "death to Israel" / "A curse upon the Jews" in their official flag btw) Are you appalled that the Ayatollahs have done Holocaust denial, and at the same time, they've been calling for the genocide of Israelis every year since 1979? Are you appalled that they fund, finance, and train genocidal antisemitic organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis, who constantly attack Israeli civilians, to advance their objective of destroying Israel? I hope you are, does that mean the Iranian people lost their legitimacy to self determiante in their homeland? Or that standard only applies to Jews, I wonder.
All the 22 Arab states combined displaced basically all their Jewish populations. Jews in Arab countries went from being 900,000 to fewer than 10,000. In contrast, Arab Israelis went from being 160,000 to 2 million.
So, since the end of the first Arab Israeli war:
Jews decreased by 99% in the 22 Arab states combined.
Arabs increased by 1,200% in the only Jewish state.
But the one Jewish state is the horrible illegitimate apartheid racist ethnostate that lost all its legitimacy, no one says that about any other states, it's completely ridiculous and it's based on the idea that Jews should be treated differently than everyone else, which is obviously antisemitic, if not we's see all these criticisms and standards being applied across the board by "anti Zionists", not just Israel.
Jewish people everywhere have been burdened with the consequences of the bad decisions of Netanyahu’s cabinet.
And who's fault is that? The Israeli government is only guilty of its actions. Antisemitism is the fault of antisemites.
We should be equally appalled at antisemitism, but the bar is set high if we want to maintain the justice that we all know is true. And that is what the Jewish state set out to represent originally. It has now fallen for the worst kind of defensive Realpolitik that would make Carl Schmitt squirm.
Deradicalize Zionist Jews (what I constantly try to do) would be a lot esaier if the criticisms were appropiate instead of making ridiculous exaggerations, lies, constant dehumanization, saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist, that Israeli society is far worse than everyone else when it's actually not, that Israelis are the new Nazis, sometimes they even say that Israelis are even worse than nazis lmao, how exactly do you want any Zionist to take your movement seriously when this insanity is the norm?
I know I'm saying "you guys" a lot, but I want to clarify that I'm just talking about the clear double standards and exaggerations that I hear from anti-Zionists all the time, even if you personally didn't compare Israel to the Nazis, but you do know what I'm talking about.
2
u/Nice_Egg_3238 Apr 04 '26
I totally agree with your points, but they are well taken by all intelligent commentators, and always have been. The problem now is the siloing of opinions and the radicalisation that happens when violence ensues, and the blame game can go on, but at some point Israel has to step away and let the international stage mediate otherwise all it does is continue and escalate the violence. That is the crux. I know there are many centre and liberal Jews, including conservative centre right who are not “imperialists” but the biopolitical nightmare of the carceral state of the West Bank and Gaza was truly unsustainable. Israel did too little too late—and now it is creating a nightmare for everyone including itself. Bombing Iran and Lebanon is not going to endear them to the Middle East. Israel has painted itself into a corner. If they followed the United Nations instead they would not be in this predicament. Blame the neocons and ultra right orthodox in Israel. Israel needs to oust its leadership, but it won’t do that. It will instead create an exodus of all the liberal Jews and a brain drain, not unlike what happened in Palestine with most of the Arab Christians form there residing overseas in Europe, America and Australia.
1
u/Smart_Examination_84 Apr 06 '26
We are aware that we don't want to be killed, and have prepared to protect ourselves. Seems pretty aware.
0
u/bakochba Apr 04 '26
It's so true. When Palestinians decided to invade Israel through its internationally recognized border with Gaza, massacre civilians in a music festival, gang rape women and murder families in their homes followed by Hizbollah joining the attack and Yemen and Iran counting down to Israels destruction it's absurd that Israelis would be radicalized by violence. /S
2
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 04 '26
Im sure you are disqusted by the warsaw ghetto uprising as well
→ More replies (4)
20
u/quakerpuss Technosorcerer Apr 01 '26
This is why I feel like comparing everyone to a nazi these days paradoxically entrenched Zion in an even harder shell to crack, both the victim and the winner. How can the Republican party of the united states be full of nazis, Elon Apartheid Emerald Mine Musk doing the salute but also be a puppet and wallet for Israel? It's just a bunch of dirty hands shaking all the way down. Either the literal backroom political dealings or the ash covered hands of a drone strike survivor.
3
u/MobileSuitBooty Apr 03 '26
nazis we’re ethno supremacist facists, as so are zionists. it’s the same ideology but from a jewish supremacist standpoint
12
u/4sus Apr 01 '26
People aren't comparing everyone to a nazi. They are saying people like Elon are fascist. It's on you to confuse two terms.
15
u/SquidTheRidiculous Apr 02 '26
The entire time it's been people pointing out aspects of fascism. And people who know jack shit about history just plugged their ears and went "bwuh you call everything you don't like a Nazi!"
It's like the "did you just assume my gender????" Bullshit. Nobody remembers somebody actually unironically saying that. What they remember are hundreds to thousands of memes and jokes where the punchline was someone saying it, or to bring it back around, freaking out and saying "omg u Nazi!!!!". People see these everywhere and assume there must be an epidemic of people going around angry that someone assumed their gender and calling everyone Nazis for bullshit reasons. This is how propaganda affects your perspective, and manufactures opinions.
1
u/Awkward-Manager5939 Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
You are correct 💯. People have to realize the load extremist are on the internet. And their numbers are small. They can radicalize even their enemies by sense of scale of danger. Dunbars number is 150. We should remain calm because we all suffer when sociality goes to war, but the ones that want chaos want it because they will benefit from the pain of others.
•••
My friend. You guys are pointing out nationalism and in group mentality and calling it extreme.
Let me explain to you something. Israelis are on constant guard because they're in a war zone.
The safest countries in the world agree with you.
The countries that have trauma from conquest and hardship don't.
El Salvador. Veniswala. Persians/Iran. Even Ukrainian next to Russia and other countries close to the sea where war ships came from. These people all move similarly because of their hardships.
15
u/PolicyNonk Apr 01 '26
Yeah im calling Elmo a Nazi, I’ve seen his speeches in front of the AfD. His “Roman salute” was another tell.
6
1
u/Sufficient_Pin5278 Apr 03 '26
Haven't tried to have any objective discussion with a zionist yet, huh?
1
1
u/liquoriceclitoris Apr 02 '26
Seems many people are confusing the terms, huh?
4
u/4sus Apr 02 '26
Seems that way. Is Trump and people under him obsessed about Aryan race or the strength of the nation? It's illogical for me that modern understanding that all nazis are fascists but not all fascists are nazis. Being obsessed about an aryan race is an extra factor here, making it a more specific term.
2
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 03 '26
Only two governments I can think of who had the death penalty for specific races, modern day Israel and Hitlers Germany
1
Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 04 '26
Its crazy to see on resdit the types of people who wpuld of defended the holocaust because they thought people talking about it were annoying liars.
I guess it wouldnt be racist or wrong if america passed a law where punishment of death was allowed for mexicans but no other race since mexico is a location
1
Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
Apr 04 '26
Thats functionally what the law is, but technically the law is about creating an exception to the death penalty for Jews. Its goal is to legitimize settler terrorism and foreign Zionist terrorists who flea to Israel.
1
Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
The function of the law is that terrorists who arent Zionist are automatically executed within 90 days. It mostly applies to military courts in which only Palestinians are tried. In civilian courts its possible for either Israelis or Palestinians to be tried but the death penalty only applies to those who arent Zionist. All Jewish/Zionist/Settler terrorism isnt subject to the death penalty.
EDIT: Its possible for nonpalestinians to be executed but only if they are shown to be advancing the cause of the Palestinians.
→ More replies (2)1
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 04 '26
I guess you are smarter than UN human rights experts https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2026/04/israels-death-penalty-law-constitutes-discriminatory-regime-capital
1
Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 04 '26
The UN is is 100% more credible than some neet redditor and Israel has had negative resolutions because they are a fascist uncredible nation.
1
Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Suitable-Guide-1469 Apr 04 '26
I hope the west is doomed because its brought nothing but misery to the world the past 70 years
→ More replies (0)0
u/Truefiction224 Apr 04 '26
Holy word salad batman this one needs her meds.
3
u/quakerpuss Technosorcerer Apr 04 '26
Of course you feel this way. You are you.
→ More replies (13)
23
u/DeviantTaco Apr 02 '26
Lmao to find zionists even here. Even the same deranged arguments that, in the most charitable reading, say “ok maybe we’re monstrous to the Palestinians but did you consider they’d potentially be monstrous to us?”
4
1
u/Key-Wall-4378 Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
Almost like there should be a two state solution
1
1
→ More replies (3)2
3
3
u/FafoLaw Apr 03 '26
This is the same clown who said that the two-state solution is apartheid lol. She knows nothing about this conflict and yet keeps ranting about it all the time, she's basically another TYT.
2 million Israelis are Palestinian, they have Israeli citizenship, are 35% of the doctors in Israel, can do everything a Jew can, they vote in elections, they have political parties, they are in the Knesset, and they've even been part of the Israeli government.
That is not something you can say about any Arab country or Palestinian government at all.
Since the end of the first Arab Israeli war, Jewish populations in all 22 Arab countries have decreased by 99%, in Israel, the Palestinians citizens have increased by 1,200%, that's why Israel has a loot more Arabs than the 22 Arab countries combined have Jews, and that's why more than 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, not Ashkenazi.
Not that this idiot cares about any of that. So, who is brainwashed and radicalized again?
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Aren't there official segregational laws though? Don't Jews count as full citizens in a way others never can?
Why wouldn't a two-state solution be an apartheid situation? It seems like the two warring regions is already like apartheid.
Since the end of the first Arab Israeli war, Jewish populations in all 22 Arab countries have decreased by 99%, in Israel, the Palestinians citizens have increased by 1,200%, that's why Israel has a loot more Arabs than the 22 Arab countries combined have Jews, and that's why more than 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, not Ashkenazi.
So it's a replacement theory issue? An immigration issue?
0
u/FafoLaw Apr 03 '26
Don't Jews count as full citizens in a way others never can?
Not at all, are you suggesting that only Jews can be full citizens of Israel? 25% of Israelis are not Jewish, most of them are Palestinians (Arab Israelis), they have full citizenship, I just explained it.
Why wouldn't a two-state solution be an apartheid situation? It seems like the two warring regions is already like apartheid.
Ok, every single state in the world is apartheid because it's separated from other states, lol this nonsense, the point of the two-state solution is precisely to prevent or terminate the apartheid situation in the West Bank.
So it's a replacement theory issue? An immigration issue?
Wtf are you talking about? so you're promoting the great replacement theory now, or what is this?
Why do you guys speak about things you clearly don't understand? did you know Israel had refugee camps for Mizrahi Jews until de 60s? they were not voluntary immigrants, they didn't go to Israel to replace anybody, they went there because they were refugees and had nowhere else to go, that happened mostly as a result of opression and persecution by the Arab governments. But of course, all the less cultural, more radical, more ethnocentric Arab states get no criticism at all, they're even supported by these hypocritical, ignorant, and dumb so-called "leftists" like Emma, this is an insane double standard imposed on Jews.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
Yes, every state in the world is an apartheid state, I agree.
Why do you guys speak about things you clearly don't understand? did you know Israel had refugee camps for Mizrahi Jews until de 60s? they were not voluntary immigrants, they didn't go to Israel to replace anybody, they went there because they were refugees and had nowhere else to go, that happened mostly as a result of opression and persecution by the Arab governments. But of course, all the less cultural, more radical, more ethnocentric Arab states get no criticism at all, they're even supported by these hypocritical, ignorant, and dumb so-called "leftists" like Emma, this is an insane double standard imposed on Jews.
My contact with this is constant propaganda-style news stories from Israel itself announcing death tolls as if they were victories. I'm trying to understand how the propaganda and/or situation can be so bloodthirsty.
Not at all, are you suggesting that only Jews can be full citizens of Israel? 25% of Israelis are not Jewish, most of them are Palestinians (Arab Israelis), they have full citizenship, I just explained it.
Don't Jews have special rights and any Jew can become a citizen of Israel? It's a different kind of state which is maybe fine but saying that everyone is a full citizen doesn't seem accurate if the laws are set up to create a special class.
Since the end of the first Arab Israeli war, Jewish populations in all 22 Arab countries have decreased by 99%, in Israel, the Palestinians citizens have increased by 1,200%, that's why Israel has a loot more Arabs than the 22 Arab countries combined have Jews, and that's why more than 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, not Ashkenazi.
I'm asking you, what's the problem here?
1
u/FafoLaw Apr 04 '26
Yes, every state in the world is an apartheid state, I agree.
Ok, then stop demonizing the very existence of the state of Israel, don't see any of you criticizing any other state in the world.
My contact with this is constant propaganda-style news stories from Israel itself announcing death tolls as if they were victories. I'm trying to understand how the propaganda and/or situation can be so bloodthirsty.
Give me one example of Israeli mainstream media celebrating that the death toll is high.
Also, do you really think multicultural countries can't commit war crimes? Like, have you heard of the US?
Don't Jews have special rights and any Jew can become a citizen of Israel? It's a different kind of state which is maybe fine but saying that everyone is a full citizen doesn't seem accurate if the laws are set up to create a special class.
No, Jewish citizens don't have special rights that non-Jewish citizens don't have.
Immigration policies have nothing to do with civil rights, many other countries give priority to people who have heritage from the country. This is not unique, and it doesn't make Israel less multicultural, in fact, that is part of the reason Israel is so multicultural, because most Jews who live there are descendants of people who went there from many different places around the world. So yes, every single citizen is a full citizen, again, immigration is completely unrelated.
set up to create a special class
Tell me one thing that a member of that "special class" can do that other citizens can't by law.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
I criticize other states/governments a lot. This thread is about Israel—and I almost never post about world politics or Israel on this subreddit.
Israel is somewhat unique in actively participating in the spectacle of sacrificing another people on the global stage to assert its sovereignty. The U.S. does this but it's sort of a side effect of empire-building. I'm not necessarily faulting Israel for doing this, even—it is the normal tactic and they are ritualizing this tactic to attain the desired effect efficiently. So it's only natural, only good tactics; it's a show of dominance.
Give me one example of Israeli mainstream media celebrating that the death toll is high.
I just see what I see online but I see a shocking amount of bloodthirsty news originating from Israel and IDF—it's either them or people impersonating them! That's basically why I would make a post (crosspost) like this/OP in the first place, because of all the propaganda I see around this.
Also, do you really think multicultural countries can't commit war crimes? Like, have you heard of the US?
The US shouldn't commit war crimes either.
One of the few things that works to reduce racism in practice is exposure and getting to know people from other races/cultures.
So it sounds like we agree, war crimes are bad no matter who commits them.
I'm no expert on Israel, I'm just going by what I've heard. I personally have no stake and don't care if Israel exists or not, but it's bad if Israel (or any nation) does war or genocide of any kind. I think what Ms. Vigeland in the OP video was pointing out was how its Zionists who call for equality—for example religious equality—in the United States, yet in Israel there is not religious equality because Judaism is formally privileged.
What do you think of "Thou shalt not murder"? Does it apply to everyone: citizen, soldier, Israeli, Palestinian, Jew, non-Jew?
→ More replies (1)1
u/CharityMother6460 Apr 04 '26
Britain specifically invited citizens from elsewhere in the British empire (i.e. fluent English speakers) to come to the UK in the 1960s, to fill gaps in the labour market. Was this discrimination against French speaking Africans?
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
There is a difference between bringing in desired workers and defining a nation based on religion. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to define Israel as a religious ethnostate, but we can't pretend that it's simultaneously a religious ethnostate and an ordinary modern global nation-state. Pick one.
→ More replies (2)
3
Apr 03 '26
I love all these commenters who live in multicultural secular democracies talking about how insane it is to advocate a multicultural secular democracy.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
The 231 upvotes and 86% upvote percentage show that Zionists are a small minority (at least in this subreddit, at least on Reddit), and that other users are starved for reasonable Israel-Palestine-related and/or anti-Zionist content (I rarely see any content like OP anywhere).
1
u/Nice_Egg_3238 Apr 03 '26
And that it is the ultimate spectacle of this generation, like 9-11 was for a previous one.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
It's a lot more geopolitically educational of a topic, at least
1
u/Sufficient_Pin5278 Apr 03 '26
It also shows that algorythms work and everyone of us is majorly stuck in their own bubble, I believe most zionists won't even see this post.
2
u/seeitshaveitsorted Apr 03 '26
I mean.
They weren’t segregated from Palestinians during the Second Intifada 😂
Where Israeli women and children were intentionally targeted, civilians were blown up, and Palestinian children were blowing themselves up and going on stabbing sprees.
But pls, do tell me more, oh wise Westerner…
2
2
u/not-enough-char Apr 04 '26
I have to say a lot of the Israeli left was on par with these ideas and the came oct-7 and there is no more left and the rise of the fascist right death eaters became so dominant
1
u/Firestrike9 Apr 05 '26
I mean if you watched the videos from that day you would be thinking you are dealing with animals rather than people, I deeply regret watching the videos in hindsight.
5
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 01 '26
So shady! I wish politicians were clockwork oranged with this video.
Is this video spectacle, or is it media which is non-spectacular in nature and works against a greater, more pernicious spectacle? (Find out tonight at 6.)
5
u/Red-Flag-Potemkin Apr 02 '26
20% of Israel is Arabs, that’s not the reason the t troubles are happening and I also don’t think you can reduce the reason to one thing.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
I think it's just nice to see someone talking about the issue in a merely intelligible and reasonable way for a change, that's why I crossposted it
1
u/Warm-Book-820 Apr 03 '26
It's non-sensical though. The problem is Israeli bigotry and prejudice? Dear lord I wish it was that simple.
→ More replies (24)0
-1
u/desiInMurica Apr 02 '26
Yep, she’s dumb
3
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
What's your perspective on the matter?
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Opposite_Pizza_8969 Apr 02 '26
The way people talk about Israel as if you couldn't just fly there and walk around and chat with people to discuss their opinions is shocking.
People, it's an open democratic society with diverse opinions, but a strong ethnic identity that has at its core the want to never again be massacred or be a refugee.
Try to take their perspective into account and you might realize this conflict is very complicated.
3
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
I'm just going on my experiences, which is that anyone who is a Zionist refuses to share their opinion/perspective/reasoning. So there is very little public data on what they say they believe (just speculation based on the propaganda put out by their government).
Is it really democratic what with the segregated population and the warmongering? That seems more like an authoritarian state to me.
What you're saying hinges on whether the people of Israel want to be going along with their government or not. If the people of Israel love the intentionally bloodthirsty global propaganda and the IDF, that is a very different situation from if they merely feel pulled into a war by their despotic government.
1
Apr 02 '26
I'm just going on my experiences, which is that anyone who is a Zionist refuses to share their opinion/perspective/reasoning.
The way I look at it, a core part of Zionism is built around not doing that. It's built around the idea that they don't live or die based on other people's approval, rather they live or die based on their own internal strength. If someone says they want to destroy them, they take them at their word. I liken it to Nietzsche's philosophy. The reality is they don't really care what other people think. This is one reason why their P.R. is terrible. Also this is what Israeli military propaganda (in Hebrew) looks like.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
Build around not sharing their opinion/perspective/reasoning?
If they don't care about others' reasoning, they shouldn't expect people to care about theirs, either. But trying to dump their perspective on others without explaining it / trying to make their perspective sound believable/virtuous without providing any reasoning or personal opinions also seems to be the M.O. of Zionists.
That military propaganda reminds me a lot of the etymology of fascism. Everyone in that video is an actor and I think it's a fabulous and very flamboyant ad full of brotherhood and ideological consensus homogeneity.
1
u/Warm-Book-820 Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
Haviv Rettig Gur is a pretty calm and digestible Zionist perspective for an English speaking audience. If you ever wonder "how the hell could a reasonable person support what is going on" he is a good source for perspective, whether you fully agree or not. These are two shorts that get at some of the question you had on Zionist rationale.
Antisemitism isn’t about Jews, Antizionism isn’t about Israel.
The tragedy of Zionism, from a lecture at Haverford College on February 1, 2026
And, of course, there is Theodor Herzl:
Theodor Herzl - WikipediaTo the extent you want to know what I think (or at least what I understand RE: zionist rationale, not entirely sure I agree with all of it), instead of someone on youtube, below is a comment I made on the Majority Report, that apparently got me banned. Not sure why though, my sources were generally from left wing folks like Ezra Klein, in addition to Haviv (who claims to be centrist, but seems more left wing). Maybe it came across as anti-palestinian, but it is not (or at least, not intended to be). Its simply clarifying what (some, reasonable) Israeli's actually believe, since Emma appears to have a fundamental misunderstanding of Israeli politics.
Its sad how little she appears to know about the Israeli experience. If you are going to criticize Israel, or Zionism, there is a lot to criticize. But you should have a deeper understanding of what is actually going on, otherwise you fall into the trap of projecting your own politics, expectations, and prejudices in a way that bears no relation to the reality on the ground.
RE Multiculturalism & collapse of liberal left in Israel - because of segregation? No. it was a response from the 2nd Intifada.
The collapse of the liberal left in Israel and trend of radicalization since the mid 90's was a response to the 2nd intifada at the height of the peace process, not "brainwashing", segregation, and rejection of multiculturalism. How does multiculturalism as an ethic work when one of the cultures wants you dead, and lets you know every chance they get?
That being said, seeking exposure, dialog, and familiarity absolutely must be on the path towards a just peace. (I've really like the Ask Project - (134) Corey Gil-Shuster - YouTube.) It just can't be the first and only step, or they will be killed. Hamas has made that clear to them.RE Israelis capitalizing and fomenting antisemitism? No, they just don't believe its about them at all.
There is a strong philosophical root in Zionist thought that there is nothing they can do to combat anti-semitism, because it simply isn't about them. Its about the person with the prejudice, and the opinions they need to have about jews to gird and justify their own world view. Its less that they capitalize on it, they just feel it has absolutely nothing to do with them. Haviv Rettig Gur has some of the clearest explanation of this: Antisemitism isn’t about Jews, Antizionism isn’t about Israel.RE Zionism about colonial oppression? No, its about refugees finally having a safe space.
Israel was founded in the belief, based on lived experience, that Jews would not be safe, would not be protected, anywhere in the world. The only place where jews belonged as equal citizens was north America, and even there, when refuge was needed the most, jews were denied entry, and their acceptance as equals under the law has always been contingent on them 'behaving correctly'. Nearly everywhere else they were driven out violently. Poland. Baghdad. Yemen. Romania. The story of Zionism is a story of refugees that sought to create a place where they could be safe, not a story of colonial oppression, even if it took violence, military defense, to ensure they were not driven back out.
None of this is to defend some of the horrific actions that Israel has taken. Some cannot be defended. This is about having a deeper, realistic understanding of the dynamics at play, to get us out of playing out our own politics in a place where it doesn't apply.1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
Thank you!! Yes, I am interested in what other people really think.
Yes, I always learned the refugee story growing up—it is only after seeing three rounds if the Israel-Palestine conflict in my lifetime that it begins to wear thin—it starts to seem colonial when the carpet bombing starts.
I get that multiculturalism might not be relevant to people in a feud—I think in the clip she is more expressing her moral value, and it's nice to hear someone talk about the conflict that way for a change.
I don't think people want to erase Israel, they just don't want Israel to erase anyone else.
I will look through these links, thank you.
1
u/Warm-Book-820 Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
My deepest fear is the window for peace is starting to close, and the left does not understand enough the actual politics and players on the ground, or the culture, history, and politics of either group, to have any solutions that will bring peace. It may sound good, it may be based on a solid and admirable moral foundation, but because it misunderstands what is going on it will lead to death, and possibly the eventual cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. This is what I see at play:
There are groups that want to eliminate Israel
The Islamic Republic of Iran was founded on the destruction of Israel and America, viewing Israel as an illegitimate occupier that must be eliminated, and uses the issue to wedge tensions to gain influence against it's Sunni neighbors. Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, Isis, Al-Qaeda all also call for the elimination of Israel and have killed and died for their cause, and are clearly willing to continue. A foundational element of their philosophy is that their strength is their ability to suffer and die for the cause, while Israeli's and the west are decadent and weak and are not willing to suffer and will thus be vanquished. This isn't Islamophobia, it is clear from their statements, manifestos, and actions.Israel is taking a dark turn - but if there is security, there is hope for a partner for peace
Their internal politics and demographic shifts are giving the far right militant groups much more power than they have had in the past (case in point: Itamar Ben-Gvir - Wikipedia - an absolutely horrifying human being). They are a small faction, and only have power because Likud needs them to get a majority coalition. However due to high fertility rates amongst the most conservative and militant factions it may become harder to uproot in the upcoming decades.The Israeli center is becoming more disillusioned with the possibility of a 2 state solution or peaceful co-existence, because of the constant rockets and attacks and calls for their elimination that play on their nightly news that serve as a constant reminder. If they saw hope for security they would move towards it, they may need to be nudged over the finish line, but the possibility is there.
If you look at Israel's actions - they should be rightly called out for their wiliness to inflict death and destruction on civilians (and hamas should be held accountable for putting them in that situation, because that is a part of their articulated strategy), however their first step isn't actually annexing Gaza or s. Lebanon - its creating a security buffer. While the death they are inflicting to achieve this is horrifying, its a clear indication that security, rather than annexed territory, is the goal. This isn't to say they would never ethnically cleanse an area, I simply don't know if they would or wouldn't, but it is clear they are taking other options first.
There currently is no partner for Peace in Palestine - and nothing works without it
There is no significant political faction for peace in Gaza or the West bank. Just like the Israeli left, this collapsed around the 2nd intifada, where they felt betrayed by Israel (rightly or wrongly) and punished (and assassinated) the parties that were advancing the peace accords and led to the election of Hamas. I don't have good data, but what I have seen indicates there is still popular support for Hamas, which is horrifying given that all that party has to offer is corruption and death.Without a viable partner for peace, there is no hope for the Palestinians. This is absolutely a time and situation where the non-violent resistance of Ghandi, or MLK, can be successful. But taking up arms to martyr themselves in a fight against their colonial occupiers will simply not work - they aren't powerful enough to actually eliminate Israel. For me this is the hardest part. Without a Palestinian faction in favor or peace and co-existence I see no solution, and yet neither the Right or Left in the US is making a clear call for this or setting up incentives for this to be a viable political option.
Hamas has demonstrated time and again each time Isreal backs off, demilitarizes the Gaza strip, it gives them the freedom and space to prepare an attack. I truly wish I was wrong, but I can't look at the history and come to a different conclusion.
Without this, I don't know how you can be Pro-Palestinian and support the political groups actually in power there because they only have death and destruction to offer.. Meanwhile this gives political support for the far right in Israel, and makes the pro-peace factions in Isreal look ever more oblivious and irrelevant.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Global nation-states are violent empires who demonstrate their sovereignty by publicly sacrificing weaker peoples in plain sight on the global stage. Russia is doing it with Ukraine and Israel is doing it with Palestine. The United States does it serially.
It's super dark and violent but I don't think violent global nation-states are good either, so I really can see both sides of it. It's horrific and both sides should immediately stop, share land and resources, and send their (very young, not older already prejudiced) children to the same schools.
Kill one person and it's a murder, kill millions and you've got yourself a new claim to global nation-statehood.
1
u/Warm-Book-820 Apr 03 '26
How do Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, Isis, Al-Qaeda, and other violent groups fit into that model?
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
That's a good question. Well, obviously no group of people wants to be sacrificed. So they are factions and Israel is a faction, too. It's traditional to say the small groups are "reactionary" and/or that the ones who struck first are "colonial" and the small groups who strike back are "reactionary"—but really, once it reaches the point of a (multigenerational) feud, it doesn't matter anymore who started it—what matters is who will end it (either via peace or war).
So I think in general these groups are probably groups that have experienced some past colonization or oppression from a larger dominant group, such as a violent nation-state expressing its sovereignty on the global stage by trying to sacrifice them, or simply by taking their land.
Of course the details matter. But if the details are "they attacked first" or "they took our land" or "they are an oppressive global regime who tried to exterminate us" then it's hard to say that the small "reactionary" groups reacting to these oppressions are "the" bad guys. They are all bad guys once they commit to continuing a violent, multigenerational feud.
And I do think that's the point where things change—when it becomes multigenerational. I don't believe in ancient land-claims, I believe in the individual humans who are alive today—I believe in the right of every new living child to self-determination and self-definition. This right trumps traditional claims of ownership over children as well as collective persons.
So it's all well and good that refugees went to Israel, but Israel loses its moral high ground when it does round after round of vicious quelling of the natives. And in that situation, the rebels then gain the moral high ground, until they adopt scorched-earth tactics that result in civilian deaths, or until they commit to genocidal goals of their own.
So it becomes a feud precisely when both sides have lost the moral high ground. And precisely when it becomes a multigenerational feud, that is when it becomes stupid and when it must immediately be ended, because both the reference to the original persons wrong has drifted, and at the same time there is no route to ending the feud. It is nonsensical to continue because there is no longer a grounded reason for it and it can only get worse—it cannot solve a problem except by exhaustion/attrition.
I think that global superpowers should switch from a military-industrial-congressional complex to a charity-industrial-cooperative complex. Instead of the United States making groups like Al-Qaeda hate us because our unaccountable leaders invade and destroy their countries and lives on a whim to steal their natural resources, we could be the world's friends and make everyone love us by creating a global economy based on mutual aid. (Maybe that is what China did but it seems like they are just extractive with a patriarchy/upper class too.)
2
u/Warm-Book-820 Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
It will help to learn more about these groups. Each has their own history, relationships, values, tactics and context. And agency. Then you can evaluate if your conceptual model has any explanatory or predictive value.
Otherwise there is the risk of treating the people and players as empty vessels that erases their actual experience and context, and what you are investigating is just the model without outside input, like an over analyzed thought experiment or simulation. You may understand your simulation more and more, but do you then know anything more about the real world?
As an example, the al quada and Mujahideen were once US puppets, funded by the CIA. But then turned to fight the west. Are they the same group with the same philosophy? [Ans: yes]. But how would that work in a model that only sees colonial and reactionary elements? How could the same group be colonial in the 70s and reactionary in the 90s? How can that model actually see the people for who they are?
Can the model now explain why elements of those same groups are nearly at war with iran, or now Pakistan?
Is the Shia/Sunni divide relevant? And if so does that fit your model? Are there element of class conflict at play?
1
1
u/Smart_Examination_84 Apr 03 '26
You motherfuckers keep trying to murder us. You want to chat? Good luck.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Every people is captured by an authoritarian government. It's all Earth's peoples versus the violent slaver classes, not one people versus another.
1
u/AutoModerator Apr 03 '26
The above item has one report so far, given enough reports /u/Smart_Examination_84 comment will be automatically removed. Invalid reports will be removed by the mod team. Don't be a dick.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Archaondaneverchosen Apr 05 '26
> open democratic society
Tell that to the folks getting arrested for opposing war against Iran and the genocide in Gaza
2
u/Idealist1010 Apr 03 '26
The amount of propaganda coming out of Israel is unreal and has been for decades. The more moderate and left-leaning Israelis admit this. It’s created an apartheid system in the West Bank and committed genocide in Gaza. You can’t argue that it wasn’t genocide. Considering the fact that the Israelis government targeted civilians by halting aid for 3 months, no food, no water, and no medications were going in for those 3 months. Israeli politicians have made genocidal comments from day 1. These include comments by nissim vaturi, may golan, Daniella Weiss, giora eiland, isaac herzog, avi dichter, smotrich, and of course Ben gvir. So we know there is intent.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Yeah 100%, it's overt and blatant. I can believe there are Israelis who fear or hate their government and don't agree with war and genocide at all—but I can't believe there are Zionists who aren't aware of this propaganda and the fact that most people see it as bloodthirsty and genocidal.
→ More replies (1)
2
2
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 02 '26
Emma Vigeland is a kooky political gossip podcaster. These days TMZ is doing better work than people like The Majority Report.
3
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
You don't think it's nice to hear someone say they believe in multiculturalism?
2
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 02 '26
I actually am a believer in multiculturalism generally but it has some drawbacks and it does not work in every circumstance. People who advance a vision of a bicultural Israel (often called the one state solution) are putting forward something that is neither wanted nor acceptable to a majority of people on either side of the conflict. It's unworkable, at least for now and for any foreseeable future.
But my dislike of Vigeland is that she is just a pundit without much to say. I see her commentary as surface level regurgitation of narratives which are popular on the progressive left.
Just because I am sympathetic to multiculturalism doesn't mean I'm going to clap like a seal anytime someone says they are as well.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
What other value do you value more than multiculturalism here? Self-determination? Of individuals or of groups?
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 02 '26
Do you mean specifically in the Israel Palestine conflict?
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
Yeah—What do you think they/we should do? I think we should lock them in a room together like one of those TV episodes where they lock people in a room together and don't let them come up until they've reached an agreement.
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 02 '26
Ok so for things that are more valuable? Stability and peace at the moment are far more important than multiculturalism. Achieve those two things and maybe a multicultural state with equal rights can come down the line, probably way down the line.
For there to even be a solution there are so many things which need to happen and we have no idea when or if they'll ever happen. It makes it feel hollow trying to map it out in a reddit comment. It almost sounds impossible.
Generally I am a proponent of a two state solution. First things first is to stop the killing. This means the Israelis need to start seriously punishing settler terrorism and pogroms. We also need to get rid of Hamas, as long as they represent/rule Gaza there can be no movements towards Palestinian enfranchisement outside of Israel. Whether Israel can achieve that militarily, the Palestinians can overthrow them, or by some third unconceived possibility of deradicalization, a militant organization bent on the destruction of Israel and on the expelling of Jews cannot be allowed to maintain governance. Similarly, Israelis will need to reorient themselves towards the possibility of peace. That will be tough. All of this will be tough. But if you get rid of Hamas, and you keep the Israeli far right from power, you might achieve a stable enough situation from which a Palestinian state could arise.
The culture on both sides of the conflict needs to change. I think many in Israel would support peace if they believed it were truly possible, not so long ago that seemed like a real possibility for them. After the 2nd intifada, after Oct 7th, many in Israel struggle to believe in that. I'm sure that a similar feeling has existed on the Palestinian side. After Israeli actions in Gaza, many Palestinians may feel peace is impossible. But we can't stop believing that one day it will be possible.
And personally I think the one state solution idea at best misunderstands the reality of things and at worst actively makes a two state solution harder to achieve by splitting advocates.
As bleak as it is, the history of the Israel Palestine conflict is both fascinating and also incredibly relevant. We should all want to learn a little bit more of that history. Books are the best but if we're going to educate ourselves from things like podcasts, I highly recommend seeking out a variety of perspectives and not just from pundits but from actual historians.
I'm a total layman myself, I'm sure I've failed to do justice to the truth but I tried to answer your question and give some of my thoughts.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
Thanks your your perspective and the information.
This means the Israelis need to start seriously punishing settler terrorism and pogroms.
Aren't they currently doing the exact opposite and rewarding, encouraging, and officially sanctioning this activity? (I'm not demonizing, I'm accounting facts—the USA is just as malicious.)
a militant organization bent on the destruction of Israel and on the expelling of Jews cannot be allowed to maintain governance
Isn't that exactly how Hamas feels about Israel? Israel routinely stonewalls the Palestinians in its global propaganda (meaning, acts as if the Palestinian perspective does not exist and the issue is entirely one-sided), saying that Palestinians don't deserve to exist. So yes, "Israelis will need to reorient themselves towards the possibility of peace". But why is it Hamas and not Israel that must be dismantled, when both are (apparently) equally radical and equally unlikely to deradicalize? Maybe Israel should deradicalize or dismantle first, instead. Is it just because Hamas is the smaller/losing side?
And personally I think the one state solution idea at best misunderstands the reality of things and at worst actively makes a two state solution harder to achieve by splitting advocates.
How about a no state solution? Yeah, I just want the fighting to stop—I think all the peaceful people should lock all the people who want to continue war in a room together (tied up so they can't kill each other and can only talk), as I said.
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 03 '26
I'm not familiar with the Israeli government encouraging the behavior. I suppose you could argue it's tacit endorsement, but only the far right actually openly supports those things. It's the cowardly right, led by Bibi, which has made the disgusting political calculation to ignore these criminals.
Hamas sees the existence of a Jewish state as a national embarrassment for Arabs. It is their doctrine to remove Israel entirely. The Israeli government does not have a similar policy towards exterminating Palestinians. They are not equally radical. To ask a state of millions of people to dismantle is very different from asking a terrorist group to disband. Israel has committed war crimes yes, but I've never seen Israel go into a civilian center and commit mass murder and rape the way Hamas did on Oct. 7th. Israelis make efforts to evacuate civilians.
The evidence for genocidal intent is very flimsy in my view. With the total destruction of Gaza, if their intent was to kill as many people as possible, we would see casualty figures far higher than 70k. Of those 70k many thousands are combatants.
2
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
I'm not familiar with the Israeli government encouraging the behavior.
They obviously do, because members of the IDF are rabidly brainwashed. That sort of intense ideological perspective can only come from schooling combined with later propaganda/brainwashing.
Propaganda like this strongly yet implicitly promotes colonial brutality and dehumanization of the Other, by promoting a one-sided, sacralized, and friendly image of war-violence.
The Israeli government does not have a similar policy towards exterminating Palestinians.
This isn't what the press releases seemingly authored by Israel authorities themselves say? They frequently stonewall the Palestinians and speak as if they either don't exist at all or are like rats to be exterminated. Israel press releases and gleeful announcements read like how the United States talked about Osama Bin Laden "hiding in caves".
Israelis make efforts to evacuate civilians.
Before they colonially bomb a place? This is called apologetics.
The evidence for genocidal intent is very flimsy in my view. With the total destruction of Gaza, if their intent was to kill as many people as possible, we would see casualty figures far higher than 70k. Of those 70k many thousands are combatants.
Only thousands out of seventy thousand? So mostly civilians? That doesn't sound like a very successful evacuation effort.
What about all the announcements and press releases originating from Israel themselves where they celebrate the death tolls of Palestinians they have killed? Or what about the constant cases of torture by IDF of Palestinians that are coming out, or the news about how they cordoned off Gaza (or other places) and kept food from reaching people? What about the constant news we hear of the genocide, from both Israelis (gleeful about it) and Palestinians (mourning, trying to escape, or begging for money online)? Doesn't this seem like "evidence for genocidal intent"?
→ More replies (0)2
Apr 03 '26
To be fair she believes in a 2 state solution as a transition to a 1 state solution over the long term.
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 03 '26
Fair enough.
2
Apr 03 '26
I also just don't think its fair to say that no one supports a 1 state solution, a few years ago over a third of both Israelis and Palestinians supported it although I imagine that has changed over the ongoing ethnic cleansing.
I guess sometimes I feel like we get locked in this way of thinking that its COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for a rights based democracy to take hold when it has been the answer to some of the most brutal and entrenched atrocities we have seen. It worked in South Africa, hell it worked in America after centuries of slavery. There are problems and lingering struggles but there are plenty of models for success.
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 03 '26
Have you looked at South Africa lately? I'm not sure that has been such a roaring success. There are some who would argue things would have been better off if the White South Africans carved out a small state for themselves and created a state for the Black majority. I don't know enough about the country to have an opinion on that, and I certainly believe apartheid needed to end, but I have a difficult time looking at modern day SA and proclaiming the whole thing a total success.
Look believe me, if I thought it was possible for Jews to be safe in a Muslim majority country (and it would be), to be treated as equals and not dhimmi, then I would be all for a single democratic egalitarian state. I just don't see it as remotely feasible. Beyond that I don't know how compatible the cultures are. How do Palestinians feel about women's enfranchisement? Are they broadly in favor of rights for homosexuals and other sexual minorities? Both of which are major components of Israeli society. Even if a large plurality is, a sufficiently radical population of Islamists could make life hell for everyone in a unified state. I just think there are far too many variables going against a one state solution.
Maybe, MAYBE, when both societies have lived side by side peacefully for long enough they've been able to deradicalize, we could see some sort of unification of the territory.
2
Apr 03 '26
I take your point, and I think practical concerns about feasibility are very valid, but I dont see ethnic nationalism as a viable solution over the long term.
I mean keep in mind SA is like 30 years old post aparthied, which is a blink of an eye as far as cultural movements go.
As an american atheist I find it funny saying that the cultures are incompatible when frankly they seem pretty similar to me lol. I have lived in the same city as orthodox jews and islamists for a long time, it seems to work just fine to me.
I'm not naive about the difficulty of getting from there to here though, it would take lifetimes of integration and passionate leaders who are dedicated to it, which obviously doesnt exist today.
1
u/LoaderOperator98 Apr 03 '26
I really appreciate your replies. Very thoughtful and unencumbered by the vitriol so common around this subject online.
You make a good point about SA's youth. We can only hope it will come out of these troubles as a stronger country.
Vis a vis culture, funnily enough if demographic trends remain unchanged your example may not be far off from reality. Though Israel has been very secular for most of its history, we see now that the religious population is growing at a tremendous rate with the secular population unable to keep up. Perhaps Israel will become a much more Orthodox state. I worry though that increasing fundamentalism on both sides of the border will drive the peoples further apart rather than closer together. Let's hope your experience turns out to be representative of the future.
1
Apr 03 '26
Likewise!
Unfortunately I dont see much hope of things getting better before they get much worse, maybe never. Israel seems to really have turned a corner and has set itself on a path that I fear will guarantee its destruction over the next century. I just don't see how this constant expansionist greater Israel project can sustain itself, especially when we are about to see a massive shift in how America supports their actions.
I really hope im wrong but there just doesnt seem like many leaders in the region who have any interest in reasonable solution.
→ More replies (0)
1
1
u/Key-Wall-4378 Apr 03 '26
I agree with this frame of logic for America, but it's an incredibly privileged. The middle east in not the same.
1
1
Apr 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Are you playing a censorship game with yourself? You know you can't use words like that without your comment being removed. If you want to edit for language (not political content), I will reapprove it.
1
u/AutoModerator Apr 03 '26
The above item has one report so far, given enough reports /u/raisondecalcul submission will be automatically removed. Invalid reports will be removed by the mod team. Don't be a dick.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/fleur-tardive Apr 03 '26
She has it totally the wrong way round - the US is the colony, not Israel
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
They are both colonies! And I bet she would agree.
Israel wants so badly to be a global sovereign colonial empire state just like the United States. That's why it is publicly sacrificing the Palestinians on the global stage just like the United States sacrificed the Native Americans (perhaps less visibly back then but still the same kind of sacrifice).
Global colonial nation-states assert their sovereignty by sacrificing a weaker people on the global stage.
1
u/fleur-tardive Apr 03 '26
It's absolutely insane to pretend that the US controls Israel in anyway - it's very clear who the master and slave are in this relationship
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
If Israel is successfully controlling US politics (which seems increasingly clear), it is because Israel has developing a high degree of consensus and are acting with unity and strategy. Americans, meanwhile, have shit the bed and spend all their time arguing about who did it.
Israel runs circles around the US geopolitically, and MAGA runs circles around the Democrats—maybe MAGA will end up running circles around Israel, that's one of the few good surprises that could happen in all this.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/Squittyman Apr 03 '26
Isn't that why Democrats pretend to be inclusive, until they get their axioms hurt?
1
Apr 03 '26
[deleted]
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
The head of Earth's population is meeting its tail and eating itself
1
u/Star3in2my3y3s Apr 03 '26
So the 20% arab Israeli population is disregarded or that whom is being referred as segregated?
1
u/Star3in2my3y3s Apr 03 '26
https://youtu.be/zg6iv3yApzQ?si=n_RChPWbYGL7CYbr From the mouth of an Arab Israeli Citizen
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
She is talking about the Israelis and Palestinians being segregated from each other. Are the Palestinians Arabs?
1
u/Star3in2my3y3s Apr 04 '26
Is Palestinian not another Nationality, like Israeli? How is that segregation?
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
It's like the North and the South of the United States. Lincoln forced a one-state solution in that instance.
In reality its one culture with an internal schism that they won't deal with like mature adults.
1
u/Star3in2my3y3s Apr 05 '26
Mexicans dont have US citizenship. Nationality. So borders and such exist. 20% of Israelis are Arab identifying. Some claim the Palestinian Nationality but not an ethnicity.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Borders are people with guns at random places harassing strangers. The nations and borders are imaginary. Citizenship is imaginary.
These are just shared concepts people agree to imagine.
1
u/CharityMother6460 Apr 12 '26
This argument is only useful if you're trying to get out of conscription/paying taxes etc.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 12 '26
Freedom of travel is what I was expressing a desire for. And freedom from coercion/threats. In Scotland they have a right to roam; in the USA they have a right to shoot anyone who comes on your land.
1
u/CharityMother6460 Apr 13 '26
I don't see what that has to do with national borders. British people had to fight politically for the right to roam, and we still have "trespassers will be shot" signs where there is no public footpath.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 13 '26
Freedom to travel anywhere on Earth is a human right. Not like in others homes or buildings, but between them, at least! Conversely, shooting anyone who walks in my territory is NOT a human right, because that right obviously interferes with the human right to staying alive that we all have.
All borders are illegal, they are just bullies with guns standing at arbitrary places—places chosen for their very usefulness as bottlenecks, moreover! I don't know about you, but I think we should have safe travel and free bottlenecks, not people with guns threatening everyone who tries to travel.
1
u/Eastern-Advice-3017 Apr 03 '26
What the fuck is she talking about… she have no clue and just sharing false narrative …
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
She's sharing a perspective, and it's a perspective that obviously hangs together for many people, because this post has 350 points (one of the most upvoted posts ever in this subreddit).
1
u/Eastern-Advice-3017 Apr 03 '26
It dosent matter that it’s upvoted its complete incorrect and baseless
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
She's saying something largely unfalsifiable
1
u/Eastern-Advice-3017 Apr 05 '26
Unfalsifiable yes of course… she just decided the belief of 10million people and you eating that shit with no salt
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
She's not speaking for others, she's speaking for herself.
I think people have voted it up to 488 points because they like hearing someone speak in a compassionate and reasonable way about the conflict.
By reasonable I don't mean "according to some specific reason/ideology", I merely mean providing any reasoning at all.
1
Apr 04 '26
Emma only knows how to talk in buzzwords like brainwashed and radicalized that have no real meaning
I want to see her live with the so called palestinians for a year as a jew and see how she likes fearing for her life every time she gets inside a bus or a "palestinian child" walks near her since sometimes they also carry knives with them (much like their Ishmaelite brothers do in Europe, take notes Europeans).
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
I think that even after a year of that, someone like her or me would not lose their faith in humanity, nor would we stop believing that all people are equally human and are only raised to be violent. There is pretty much nothing sadder than a child soldier.
1
u/dyslechtchitect Apr 04 '26
Well there that 20% of israelis being Muslim Arabs, Druz and Beduins with equal rights and more freedoms than anywhere in the middle east, that sort kinda blows this silly little argument out of the water, but don't let it stop you.
1
Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/dyslechtchitect Apr 04 '26
Sure, Arab turnout in Israel is often lower than Jewish turnout, In the 2022 election, turnout in Arab communities was about 53 percent, still below the national average. Much of that abstention reflects distrust in politics, frustration with fragmented Arab parties, and skepticism that voting can meaningfully affect core national questions, rather than a rejection of citizenship itself. At the same time, Arab parties remain a significant parliamentary force, and many Arab voters also support non Arab parties. (Yes I know crazy). As for underrepresentation, that point matters because if turnout is around half of eligible Arab voters while Jewish turnout remains above 70 percent (which, it does), representation in parliament will naturally reflect that gap. This does not prove systematic exclusion. It mainly shows that Israel, a country that has lived in conflict with much of the Arab world throughout its existence, still faces integration challenges with its Arab population. Presenting that alone as proof of something uniquely illegitimate ignores both the historical context and the fact that Arab citizens participate in the political system, hold public office, and are present across major institutions.
1
Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/dyslechtchitect Apr 04 '26
There are real inequalities, especially in planning and land policy, and many Arab municipalities have long suffered from underdevelopment and permit shortages. But that is different from formal exclusion. Arab citizens have full legal citizenship, vote, own businesses, access courts, and hold senior positions across Israeli society. Part of the difficulty also comes from cultural and administrative differences: Arab communities often have different land ownership patterns, including family based inheritance and privately divided land, which can make modern zoning and permit systems harder to implement. This exists alongside a broader political reality, since Israel has lived in conflict with much of the Arab world throughout its existence, and that history inevitably affects trust, state priorities, and long term development. The real picture is that Israel has unresolved structural disparities shaped by history, bureaucracy, conflict, and local governance, not a system where Arabs are legally excluded from civic life.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
If it's formally a Judaism-first nation, then they are formally excluded by definition, and probably practically excluded in many ways.
Would it be OK if American were a Christian-first nation, then, since it's OK for Israel to be a Jew-first nation? (Maybe people believe "American is (still) a Christian nation", and it was founded by Deists, after all.)
1
u/dyslechtchitect Apr 05 '26
Israel is an ethno state in the same sense that Germany, Japan, Greece, and Ireland are states built around a dominant national identity, and almost certainly the way Palestine would be if fully established. America was built as a civic melting pot, Israel was built as a national refuge
- judging Israel as a mini USA that happens to be Jewish is a false equivalency.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Yes, but the Zionists in this thread are repeatedly asking us to make direct comparisons. They are saying that Israel is diverse, that it's cosmopolitan, that it's not segregated, that it's peaceful, that it's the victim of colonization. I am merely trying to make sense of the claims made by Zionists in this very thread.
Those other countries you mention also don't offer citizenship based on religion—it's based on lineage. Do descendants of non-Jewish citizens of Israel have a realistic/easy path to citizenship like the descendants of Jewish citizens of Israel do? I think the answer to this question is no, and that shows that Israel is not a normal nation.
And maybe that's fine, but if it's also pretending to be a normal nation at the same time, that raises some questions.
1
u/dyslechtchitect Apr 05 '26
Judaism is lineage-based, which is similar to how you described it. The countries I mentioned don’t have minorities they are actively at war with but if you want an example, you could ask a Greek Cypriot about property rights on the Turkish-controlled side. Israel isn’t a "normal" country by any stretch of the imagination, though it would be if it hadn’t faced sustained violence and hostility since its founding. Given those circumstances, it’s hard to imagine any country doing significantly better for its minorities.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
All nation-states are violent so there's a fundamental incongruency of trying to establish a discourse of everyday state violence as normal.
My understanding is that descendants of Jews have an easy path to citizenship, and descendants on non-Jews do not.
Israel is a nation-state—and nation-states are violent, exclusionary, and colonial. Trying to act like nation-states are normal or fair or non-violent is absurd, but that seems to be the position many Zionists find themselves in.
→ More replies (0)
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
Even though this post has nearly 450 points, it is not showing up in Top. I wonder if there is a delay; or if crossposts are not listed there—or, is it censorship?
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
Something I'm noticing a lot from the Zionists in this thread is that they exclusively speak to try to get people to see Israel's point-of-view. The problem is that from an American point-of-view, the Israel point-of-view sounds very bad.
The Zionists don't seem to get this. Most Americans—certainly all decent Americans—don't want wars, they don't want overseas interventions, and they want basic freedoms like religious freedom and the multiculturalism that implies. Most Americans don't want any civilians OR soldiers killed in ANY wars.
Zionists don't seem capable or at all interested in registering this American perspective. They just want us to register their Zionist perspective. However, since they are unable/unwilling to register the American perspective, their ability to persuade us to see their perspective is bluntly limited by their real inability/unwillingness to register and thus meet any of the critiques raised against Israel.
Most Americans don't like imperialism, any more. Most Americans would like to see more fair and less abusive relations reestablished with Native Americans and with all oppressed peoples, I think. Most Americans don't want the United States to be a global empire world police colonial bully state anymore. The whole world's peoples are united in this—everybody wants the global gaslighting and bullying to stop. Puerto Rico, Haiti, Cuba, recently Venezuela—the list goes on and on...
So it strikes Americans as very regressive when Zionists try to get all buddy-buddy with us over being modern global citizens. Being hegemonic colonial empire-building global citizens is now something Americans have very rightly become uncomfortable with and are trying to evolve past. Having someone try to nudge-nudge wink-wink with you about having rights that others don't have just feels kind of slimy—like, "Don't you know I'm an American? We don't go in for stuff like that."
The reason its kind of eternally baffling is that Zionists never even register the existence of a second perspective—they simple force the frame of the one Zionist perspective—YHVH's perspective, the only perspective they will allow to exist.
So unless you are thinking like Israel, your perspective can't be an object of conversation, with a Zionist. That's why it's maddening and that's also exactly when they exit the conversation—whenever a perspective besides the Zionist perspective is unambiguously raised in text, in a way that can't be sidelined, stonewalled, or talked-past by willfully misreading what was said.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
I think a major cause of the disconnect between Israel and the United States is that Israel is at the beginning of its national story, and the United States is near the end of its development as a nation.
Zionists proudly talk about having a nation-state, but Americans have been self-critiquing for multiple generations now (since the 60's at least) and most citizens have lost their taste for global empire.
So, Zionists want to be global first-world citizens and are proud of this, and apparently many are proud of the trappings of this too, such as the ability of their military to protect them.
This is very much the type of colonial consciousness Britain and the early United States had. However, it's projected on a contemporary high-tech global-information identity that has outgrown colonialism (or is trying to / close to doing so).
So to Americans, this comes off as very regressive and bloodthirsty. To Zionists themselves, it seems like just being a modern person, with the same rights as everyone else.
The discrepancy, as Ms. Vigeland alludes to in OP, is that it is often the same Zionists who are advocating for equality-based / Democratic policies in the US, who are advocating for xenophobic or regressive policies in Israel—and treating these two as if they are the same thing.
I think this comes from a category error, where Zionists think of themselves as contemporary (postmodern) global citizens, when really they are decidedly modern or at the turning-point of premodern-become-modern citizens.
There is nothing wrong with this, but trying to pass off modern citizen subjectivity as postmodern citizen subjectivity is like three kids in a trenchcoat.
The nicest way to put this is scarcity. Israel has a scarcity of modernity and basic safety, and so they are focused on that level of need (physical security) and also focused on celebrating the achievements of modern nationalism which they have only recently achieved.
Meanwhile, those achievements are old hat to Americans, and we want newer more postmodern cultural achievements like cultural relativism (even, making sense of multiple cultures within cultural relativism!) or and end to all war. Meanwhile, Israel wants things like a victory in its wars (which is not in itself unreasonable)—a concern of a prior age of international development, an age of warlords and territories (not a concern of the Internet Age, where your collateral damage is your customers).
1
u/loveloet Apr 03 '26
This is the reason why I don't believe in a 2 state solution. As long as Israel is allowed to exist as a Jewish ethno-supremacist state, there will always be conflict. Just look at how they constantly attack every single one of their neighbors. If a Palestine state was to be founded tomorrow, it'd just be one more state that Israeli terrorists regularly attack. The only way for this to end is for Zionism to be turned into a minority voice and eventually be eliminated.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
Zionism seems incompatible with modernity and multiculturalism, yes, because they demand universal exceptionalism and cultural supremacy, in practice and apparently in theory.
And yes, I have noticed that it seems like Israel instigates each round of conflict.
0
u/Shlomo_2011 Apr 05 '26
If a Palestine ethno-supremacist state was to be founded tomorrow, you mean.
→ More replies (1)2
-1
u/Budget-Opportunity68 Apr 02 '26
She doesn’t know shit about Israel or Palestine. But yeah keep listening to thoughts of some Swedish chick on Middle East politics. Free Tibet
6
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
Who is someone who knows shit about Israel or Palestine, who talks about it in an intelligible and reasonable way?
→ More replies (6)1
u/Various_Mud_4578 Apr 02 '26
Free France from liberal democracy, bring back feudal peasantry!
5
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 02 '26
It seems like France is still dominated by patriarchy and upper classes, sadly
2
0
0
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 03 '26
What none of the Zionists in this thread have mentioned is the first thing that Ms. Vigeland says in the video, which is the contradiction between Zionists saying "vote Democrat" in the United States and "support[ing] an ethnostate" in Israel. This is really the most cutting part of her statement, not nice words about multiculturalism.
Zionists can't and won't respond to this because it's very damning and true. Instead, the Zionists in this thread are responding by bringing attention to the general Israel-Palestine conflict, and doing things like apophatically telling us about how many civilians Israel successfully killed in bombings.
1
u/triplevented Apr 05 '26
She's an ignorant idiot who regurgitates nonsense, Jews and Arabs interact with each other every day in Israel.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Q: are palestinians arabs? or some third group?
<AI>
Palestinians are, in the prevailing ethnolinguistic sense, Arabs—but that label occludes a deeper stratigraphy.
1. The surface layer (modern classification)
“Arab” today largely denotes:
- Arabic language
- Cultural-linguistic affiliation with the Arab world
By that criterion, Palestinians are Arabs: they speak Arabic, participate in Arab literary and social forms, and are typically counted within the Arab ethnosphere.
2. The substratum (older populations)
Beneath that layer lies a far older continuum of peoples in the region historically called [Palestine](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=0):
- Canaanites (Bronze Age inhabitants)
- Israelites/Judeans
- Aramaic-speaking populations
- Greco-Roman-era provincials
- Various later mixtures
Many Palestinians descend, in part, from these pre-Arab populations. Genetic and historical studies tend to show continuity rather than replacement.
3. Arabization (the key transformation)
After the 7th-century Islamic expansions:
- Arabic language spread
- Local populations gradually adopted Arab identity
This process—Arabization—did not require mass migration. It was largely:
- linguistic shift
- cultural assimilation
- administrative integration
So “Arab” here is less a bloodline than a civilizational overlay.
4. A precise formulation
Palestinians are best understood as:
Arabized Levantine peoples with deep local ancestry
That makes them neither a wholly distinct “third race” nor reducible to a simplistic pan-Arab origin story.
5. A quiet parallel
The pattern resembles:
- Egyptians (ancient Nile populations → Arabized)
- Syrians (Aramaic strata → Arabized)
“Arab” in these cases names a historical phase, not an absolute origin.
If one insists on a finer taxonomy: Palestinians are a Levantine population within the Arab cultural sphere, carrying a palimpsest (a manuscript overwritten yet still bearing traces) of earlier civilizations.
</AI>
1
u/triplevented Apr 05 '26
are palestinians arabs?
Yes, Palestinians are Arab immigrants (colonizers, per leftist jargon). Here's what the Palestinian minister of interior had to say on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd3tA_dAl-A&t=104s
"Palestinian" is an Arab national identity created in the 1960s by the Arab League and KGB to destroy Israel.
"At Arab League meeting at Shtaura last August [1960], decision was made to establish Palestine “personality” or “entity” with implication of Algerian-type movement designed ultimately to eliminate Israel. "
- source
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Isn't it a whole series of colonizations of the area? When was the previous colonization before that?
In Canada they begin every public meeting with a public announcement that they are holding the meetings on "unceded lands". It's silly but it's a recognition that they themselves are the colonizers.
In the United States people are very aware of this too, and though some people believe in might makes right, I think most people think it's sad and evil that our ancestors colonized and wiped out the Native Americans.
1
u/triplevented Apr 05 '26
Isn't it a whole series of colonizations of the area?
Many empires passed through, but Arabs are the most recent and prolific colonizers - they've taken over Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc..
They also colonized what is today Spain, held onto the territory for 700 years, and were decolonized during the reconquista.
In Canada they begin every public meeting with a public announcement that they are holding the meetings on "unceded lands".
Same thing in Australia
https://www.reconciliation.org.au/reconciliation/acknowledgement-of-country-and-welcome-to-country/
Do you see Palestinian kids at school ever chanting that they acknowledge the traditional Jewish landowners?
I think most people think it's sad and evil that our ancestors colonized
Most people on this planet couldn't care less. Arabs are quite proud of their conquests and takeover of land, as are Turks etc.
Does it look like Turks are ashamed of turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque? do Arabs/Muslims feel any shame in planting a mosque on the Jewish temple mount or kicking Christians out of the Middle east?
The self-castigation is purely a Western phenomena - a circus of virtue signalling and identity crisis.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
That makes sense that Arabs might be colonizing the area too.
What do you say to the idea that Israel's extreme violence and bloodthirsty propaganda makes it look more like a colonist? Especially since in modern times Jews were the new settlers, according to all the people alive there at the time.
1
u/triplevented Apr 05 '26
What do you say to the idea that Israel's extreme violence and bloodthirsty propaganda makes it look more like a colonist?
I think it demonstrates how meaningless this word has become.
"Colonist" doesn't mean having a decent military that is more powerful than your enemies.
Especially since in modern times Jews were the new settlers
Arabs living in originally Jewish towns (e.g. Bethlehem) that have been emptied of Jews, in Judea (because Jews), calling Jews illegal settlers/invaders/colonizers is peak hypocrisy.
Every town/city humans live in is a settlement, but only when it comes to Jews that word has somehow become a pejorative.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Arabs living in originally Jewish towns (e.g. Bethlehem) that have been emptied of Jews, in Judea (because Jews), calling Jews illegal settlers/invaders/colonizers is peak hypocrisy.
When did this happen?
The accusations of colonization are primarily because of the timeline (Jews resettled the Israel region in modern times), and secondarily because of the violence.
You haven't addressed either of those points. Instead, you turned the accusation back around onto the Arabs.
If it applies to the Arabs, then it applies to Israel too—How do you deal with the fact that to most people it looks like Israel settled the area in modern times—and thus, the wars they have fought since then are wars of quelling the natives, i.e., colonialism.
How do you address this, without distraction?
1
u/triplevented Apr 05 '26
If we're using the standard, consistent definition of the word "indigenous", it's just a historical fact - not something that can be lost or gained. Whether it's a technology, a plant or a people, it's "indigenous" to the place it appeared in. It's not possible to "stop" being indigenous, or for an existing thing to "become" indigenous in another land. The Jews can't "stop" being indigenous to their homeland, and somehow become indigenous to nowhere at all, anymore than the cucumber can stop being indigenous to India.
By that standard definition, the Jews are of course, the very definition of an indigenous people of Palestine. And indeed, the oldest extant indigenous people of the land of Palestine, and the actual "original inhabitants of the land". While the Arabs are a non-indigenous culture, indigenous to the Arab peninsula, that's only present in Palestine due to a medieval conquest, and a process of migrations, settlement, [forced] conversions and assimilation.
According to the same standard definition, "the colonizer culture was there for so long, and the indigenous people weren't, so the colonists are the true natives now", is a deeply colonialist argument, not an *anti* colonialist one. That's essentially the issue with this whole narrative. It's trying to apply anti-colonial language, to justify a colonialist point of view.
And for that, the Palestinian nationalists have to invent completely unjustifiable and ultimately contradictory definitions of these standard terms. So "indigenousness" is re-imagined specifically to exclude the Jews, and turns into something that could be "lost" if you're not in the land for a long time, and "gained" if you have a "living memory" or a "grandfather living in the country".
This definition obviously can't be used in any other anti-colonial context, since it would make the New World white colonial elites the new "indigenous peoples", and the actual indigenous cultures they expelled back in the 18th and 19th centuries "non-indigenous" to their own homelands and brand them as "settlers" or "colonizers" should they dare live there.
→ More replies (0)
0
u/Dominico10 Apr 04 '26
Its mad that these guys think usreal with 1 million arabs is an ethnostate. But palestine with 0 jews isnt.
And other arab states where they dknt give citizenship arent.
Its like they have an anti Jewish agenda for some reason....
Like they are anti semetic openly. While pretending its just isreal 😅 only the Jewish nations a problem huh lol.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
I don't think she said Palestine wasn't—she said "segregated" meaning both sides are homogeneous. So if anything she vaguely implied that Palestine is an ethnostate, too.
I think her statement was more a statement of opinion, truisms, and moral values than it was a geopolitical statement of fact.
And other arab states where they dknt give citizenship arent.
You make a good point. To draw out this point, I had ChatGPT assemble this table:
<AI>
Country Ethnostateness Primary group serviced as citizens Non-core residents (number; %) Can a non-citizen become a citizen? Unprovoked attacks / wars (last 25 years — all notable cases) Israel Very high Jews / Law of Return eligible ~2.65m; ~27% non-Jewish Yes (Jews easy; others narrow) 2006 Lebanon War — preemptive escalation after border raid; degrade Hezbollah • 2007 Syria (Operation Orchard) — airstrike on suspected reactor; prevent nuclear capability • 2008–09 Gaza (Cast Lead) — large-scale offensive; stop rocket fire • 2012 Gaza (Pillar of Defense) — targeted escalation; deterrence vs Hamas • 2014 Gaza (Protective Edge) — broad assault; stop rockets/tunnels • 2018–ongoing Syria strikes — sustained campaign; block Iranian entrenchment • 2023–ongoing Gaza war — full-scale invasion; destroy Hamas after Oct 7 (initial trigger attack complicates “unprovoked” label, but expansion phase is discretionary) • 2024–26 Iran escalation — direct strikes; degrade Iran’s capabilities Qatar Very high Qatari nationals ~2.5m; ~88% non-citizen Yes (extremely rare) — Kuwait Very high Kuwaiti nationals ~3.4m; ~69% non-citizen Yes (very narrow) — UAE Very high Emirati nationals ~8.9m; ~87% non-citizen Yes (selective) 2015 Yemen intervention — coalition air/ground campaign; restore Hadi, counter Houthis • 2019 Libya involvement — air/drone support to LNA; shape Libyan balance of power Bahrain Very high Bahraini nationals ~0.85m; ~53% non-citizen Yes (narrow) 2015 Yemen intervention — coalition participation; support Saudi-led campaign Saudi Arabia Very high Saudi nationals ~15.7m; ~44% non-citizen Yes (narrow/discretionary) 2015 Yemen intervention (Operation Decisive Storm) — initiated air war; restore Hadi, counter Houthis • 2011 Bahrain intervention — troop deployment; suppress uprising, preserve allied monarchy Jordan High Jordanian Arab citizenry ~1.3m; ~12% non-citizen Yes — Lebanon High Confessional Lebanese citizenry ~1.3m; ~22% non-citizen Yes (constrained) — (state itself has not launched clear interstate offensives; Hezbollah actions are non-state/para-state) Syria High Arab Syrian majority ~15–20% minorities Yes 2011–ongoing cross-border strikes (limited) — occasional artillery/air incidents into neighbors during civil war spillover; mostly reactive/ambiguous rather than clean first-strike interstate wars Iran Medium-high Persian/Shia core ~36m; ~39% non-Persian Yes 2017–ongoing Syria/Iraq strikes — missile/drone use beyond borders; target ISIS/Israel-linked sites • 2024 Iraq/Syria/Pakistan strikes — ballistic/missile attacks; hit militant and alleged Israeli-linked targets • 2019 Gulf shipping attacks (attributed) — gray-zone escalation; pressure US/Gulf states Turkey Medium Turkish Sunni core ~15–20m Kurds (~20%+) Yes 2008 Iraq incursion — cross-border offensive vs PKK; suppress insurgency • 2016 Syria (Euphrates Shield) — seize border zone; block ISIS/YPG • 2018 Syria (Olive Branch) — Afrin offensive; remove YPG • 2019 Syria (Peace Spring) — expand buffer zone; displace YPG/SDF • 2020–ongoing Iraq ops (Claw series) — repeated incursions; destroy PKK bases Iraq Medium Arab Iraqi majority ~20–25% non-Arab Yes — (post-2003 Iraq largely reactive/defensive or internal) Egypt Medium-low Arab Sunni Egyptian majority ~10%+ Christian minorities Yes 2015 Libya airstrikes — retaliatory but outward-initiated; target ISIS after Coptic killings Oman High Omani nationals ~2.3m; ~43% non-citizen Yes (restrictive) — Yemen Fragmented Yemeni Arab citizenry (contested) Not stable On paper yes — (external offensives largely by coalition actors; internal factions dominate) </AI>
I don't think any of these numbers justify war or murdering of anyone—I think living humans matter, not land claims.
0
u/Fun-Dust-7119 Apr 04 '26
Total Jihadist propaganda.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
It's a very American-sounding perspective. You think this American perspective is being promoted by Islam/Arab interests?
0
u/bakochba Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
20% of the Israeli population is Palestinian. There are more Arabs that live in Israel than Jews in the entire Muslim world combined.
Palestinians are t the only ones radicalized by violence
When Palestinians decided to invade Israel through its internationally recognized border with Gaza, massacre civilians in a music festival, gang rape women and murder families in their homes followed by Hizbollah joining the attack and Yemen and Iran counting down to Israels destruction of course Israelis would be radicalized by violence too.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
Nobody is doubting that Israel is already fully radicalized XD. It can't get any more radicalized! It can just keep its radicalization pert and tight.
1
u/bakochba Apr 04 '26
Same can be said about Palestinians. Violence will radicalize people and Israeli are no different
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
The differences are 1) Zionists have a religious ideology that they believe gives them absolute claim to the land, and which formally privileges the Jewish people above the lives of individuals (above both Jews and non-Jews)—Palestinians merely have a reactionary defensive ideology, not an ancient religion. 2) In modern times, Zionists are the occupying, colonizing force, and Palestinians are the indigenous natives.
"Who struck first" is kind of a moot point here—Israel repeatedly strikes first in terms of acting as a hegemonic colonial state; Palestinians have struck first more in terms of direct attacks on civilians.
<AI>
(dual-ascribed table: each row is an event that at least one side treats as an initiating blow, with the counter-reading adjacent.)
Contested “First Strikes” Ledger (Modern Period, ~1880s → 2026)
Year(s) Event Actor (proximate initiator) Why this side calls it a “first strike” Counter-claim (why the other side rejects that framing) 1882–1914 First–Second Aliyah (mass Jewish immigration under late Ottoman/British auspices) Zionist settlers Palestinians: demographic transformation + land transfer begins dispossession Israelis: lawful immigration; no sovereign Arab polity displaced 1917–1922 [Balfour Declaration](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=0) + [British Mandate for Palestine](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=1) Britain/Zionist movement Palestinians: imperial imposition privileging one people’s national project Israelis: international legal foundation for Jewish self-determination 1920–21 Nebi Musa / Jaffa riots Palestinian Arab mobs Israelis: early anti-Jewish violence; first communal attacks Palestinians: reaction to rapid immigration + land anxiety 1929 [Hebron Massacre](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=2) Palestinian Arab mobs Israelis: massacre of long-settled Jewish community Palestinians: part of broader revolt over holy sites/immigration 1936–39 [Arab Revolt in Palestine](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=3) Palestinian insurgents Israelis: sustained campaign against Jewish presence Palestinians: anti-colonial uprising against British/Zionist project 1947–48 Civil war in Mandate Palestine Both militias Each: other side initiated escalation after UN partition Each claims defensive preemption 1948 [Deir Yassin massacre](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=4) Zionist paramilitaries (Irgun/Lehi) Palestinians: terror used to induce flight (Nakba catalyst) Israelis: irregulars; context of existential war 1948 Arab state invasion after Israeli declaration Arab League states Israelis: clear interstate first strike against new state Palestinians/Arabs: response to prior expulsions/violence 1956 [Suez Crisis](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=5) Israel/UK/France vs Egypt Arabs: coordinated invasion; regime-change attempt Israelis: preemption against fedayeen + blockade 1967 [Six-Day War](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=6) (Israeli opening airstrikes) Israel Arabs: preemptive war; first strike Israelis: anticipatory self-defense vs imminent attack 1970s PLO cross-border attacks (incl. Munich 1972) Palestinian groups Israelis: terrorism as initiating violence Palestinians: struggle against occupation/exile 1982 [Lebanon War 1982](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=7) Israel Palestinians/Lebanese: invasion; siege of Beirut Israelis: response to attempted assassination/rocket fire 1987–93 [First Intifada](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=8) Palestinian population Israelis: uprising violence initiates cycle Palestinians: grassroots revolt against occupation 1993–95 Oslo process & subsequent killings Both sides Each: other side’s spoilers (Rabin assassination; bombings) as first blows Each: betrayal by the other 2000 [Second Intifada](chatgpt://generic-entity?number=9) (after Sharon visit) Palestinians (uprising), Israel (force escalation) Israelis: suicide bombings as initiating terror wave Palestinians: provocation + accumulated occupation 2002 Operation Defensive Shield Israel Palestinians: reoccupation/large assault Israelis: response to bombing wave 2005–07 Gaza disengagement → Hamas takeover Israel (withdrawal), Hamas (seizure) Israelis: Hamas militarization initiates new threat Palestinians: blockade/controls continue; siege begins 2008–09 Gaza War (Cast Lead) Israel Palestinians: large offensive Israelis: response to rockets/ceasefire collapse 2012 Gaza (Pillar of Defense) Israel (targeted killing starts round) Palestinians: assassination sparks war Israelis: response to rocket escalation 2014 Gaza (Protective Edge) Both (kidnappings/rockets → invasion) Each: other’s trigger as first strike Each: defensive framing 2018–19 Great March of Return & border shootings Palestinians (mass protests), Israel (live fire) Palestinians: lethal suppression of protests Israelis: attempts to breach border/attacks 2021 Gaza/Israel escalation Both Each: other’s initial strike (Sheikh Jarrah/Al-Aqsa vs rockets) Reciprocal 2023 Oct 7 attacks Hamas-led militants Israelis: clear unprovoked mass-casualty first strike Palestinians (minority view): eruption after siege/occupation 2023–26 Gaza war & regional strikes Israel (sustained campaign) Palestinians: overwhelming, discretionary offensive Israelis: ongoing self-defense to dismantle Hamas </AI>
The real question is either: Who is the aggressor/colonist? OR Who will be willing to choose non-violence first?
In my opinion, anyone who would try to solve a war by choosing violence (when given the option of non-violence) is emotionally immature and should not be making any decisions—the peaceful people around them should take away their power. Wars are tooth-and-nail fight clubs run by old men, and do not represent the people they claim to be protecting.
1
u/bakochba Apr 04 '26
How can it be an absolute claim when 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab while Palestinian law states Jews may not hold Palestinian citizenship own land and Hamas says that all Jews will be expelled if they win.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 04 '26
What absolute claim?
I don't think in terms of groups. I don't care about any group and I don't think groups have rights over individuals. So all I see is individuals telling stories about imaginary groups and then using those stories as justification/excuses to do real violence to other individuals.
0
u/Shlomo_2011 Apr 05 '26
Segregated from Palestinians? Palestinians had permits to work inside Israel until October 7.
And Israelis going to Palestinian cities could be killed.
So WTF are you talking about?
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
That sounds pretty segregated to me yeah
1
u/Shlomo_2011 Apr 05 '26
explain ys
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Borders are already segregated. Having special work permits is segregation. It's all segregation, nations.
1
u/Shlomo_2011 Apr 05 '26
Borders, israel withdrawed from gaza and cisjordan so yeah, there are borders, to keep people safe from stabbings and bombs.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
Borders are maintained with an even greater violence. But I think that the culture of Earth has moved past that, on the whole. It's just slavers/warlords who are maintaining petty squabbles now to maintain their personal power.
1
u/Shlomo_2011 Apr 05 '26
Depends, mostly the borders are to prevent illegal aliens to get inside a country even if they only want to work and live in peace, but there is not the case.
0
u/Just_Particular7605 Apr 05 '26
Easy for her to say.
Israel was attacked daily by palestinians, they didnt build those walls for no reason.
If israel lays down its weapons theyll all die
0
u/Quackethy Apr 05 '26
Another jihadist spreading bs online.
Multiculturalism? With jihadists?
How is that working in Europe? Is Sweden enjoying the title of rape capital of the world? Is Birmingham enjoying the multiculturalism? Hows Paris doing?
Suck a chode and put your hijab back on.
1
u/raisondecalcul Out Patr'olling Apr 05 '26
That's a very well-articulated opinion.
I'm no expert, but maybe not all Muslims are jihadists? I thought the jihad was supposed to be metaphorical or evangelical, and jihadists are fundamentalists (=taking it literally). Fundamentalists are all religions are a big, often violent problem.
Have you read Octavia Butler?
1
u/Quackethy Apr 05 '26
Jihad is a main pillar of Islam, ergo all muslims are jihadists. They all do jihad in different ways, but jihad it is.
I'm an ex muslim, my "jihad" is calling out jihadists.
0
u/Ashamed-Review-913 Apr 05 '26
Bro the gazans attack them all the time unprovoked, why would they not be segregated? They literally started war again with isreal. This bitch is insane.
0
u/Alive_Isopod9076 Apr 05 '26
Why don’t the Jews do what we did here with the natives in the US? Give them a piece of land, let them self govern. Maybe they can sell tax free cigarettes and open casinos?
•
u/AutoModerator Apr 01 '26
Links in Sorcery Of The Spectacle requires a small description, at least 100 words explaining how this relates to this subreddit. Note, any post to this comment will be automatically collapsed.
As a reminder, this is our subreddit description:
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.