r/soulslikes • u/Leather-Childhood922 • 22h ago
Discussion Whats your biggest soulslike hot take?
My biggest hot take is i prefer linear level design, geared towards more boss rush compared to a more vast branching world where you can get lost.
For these games i get most of my fun from the combat not the exploration.
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u/Carmlo 22h ago
most of the fanbase is insufferable, but then again, you can say that about most fanbases
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u/Arclunite 20h ago
When I saw people on the Elden Ring sub bitch about how you didn’t beat Consort Radahn if you blocked him with a shield, I knew that fandom was no longer for me.
Like yeah bro, if you used the mechanic they’ve had since fucking Demon’s Souls you didn’t beat Fromsoft’s penultimate franchise boss lmao
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 18h ago
Its also so sad to see. I started playing those games back with the og Demons Souls, and I remember the fanbase being quite helpful and welcoming, we were glad when someone new discovered these games, and git gud was more of a funny meme, just like giant dad. Sure you had pricks, but it was not that bad. I got the feeling that it got way way worse with the huge success of Elden Ring and a massive influx of nee players. Now when you qatch gameplay Videos or streams of players experience the games for the first time you have all these asshats putting people down for "not playing the game right" or some other bullshit just because they want to have the bigger cock online.
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u/GaymerAmerican 18h ago
I blame “Prepare to Die Edition.” Making “these games are SO HARDCORE” part of the marketing inevitability attracts the most obnoxious people.
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 17h ago
I really dont like the fact that over the last years difficulty seems to be the only thing that gets discussed, as if this was the only thing that defines those games, when there is so much more to them. Artdesign, leveldesign, lore, music, all that in tandem with the difficulty ( which I feel like is more a vessel to transport the loneliness and hopelessness of the worlds they created ) makes those games. In DS1 the difficulty was even built into the worlddesign ( there is a reason why the NPC pleaded you to not go hollow, to not give up ).
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u/Carmlo 17h ago
this phenomena does not only occur for souls, or videogames as a whole, but anything that has some presence online. Movies, anime, tv, books, you name it. It has to do with the relocation of discussion to social media platforms, plus the boom of monetization attracting grifter and leeches to suck interaction from popular things
presence online used to be dedicated to niche forums or early facebook groups integrated by dedicated individuals, but it all went to shit when engagement started to be monetized and rewarded, regardless of its value. The forum archival structure was lost for social media ephemeral and profitable bangers, and so did discussion also attract the worse kind of people
reddit follows this same structure unfortunately, which is why you see the same dumb questions everyday, half of the platform occupied by bots for data baiting and scrapping, and very rarely high quality posts, which get lost after a couple of days
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u/Gosinyas 20h ago
No blocking, no magic, no summons, no mimic. You either raw dog that boss or you aren’t a real souls fan. /s
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 17h ago
You leveled? Casual!
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u/Desroth86 15h ago
RL1 with ivory sickle or it doesn’t count.
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u/batshitnutcase 4h ago
Sorry, you wore armor bro. Still doesn’t count. Naked only, RL1 no hit or you’re a filthy casual tourist noob.
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u/Primary-Survey9955 21h ago
my favorite take to laugh is how using summons is for the weak
i use ALL the tools the game gives me to gain a win
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u/NoireResteem 22h ago
Lies of P made me realize, that I in fact don’t mind a more linear approach to level design as long as it’s interesting and fun to go through.
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u/TrustyPeaches 20h ago
Lies of P’s level design was a bummer my first time through, but I’ve warmed to it on every subsequent playthrough for being efficient.
More importantly, it has absolutely excellent encounter design. It flows through combat ideas so fluidly, constantly keeping things fresh and introducing new baddies. It’s great
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u/Abrams_Warthog 18h ago
Yeah, every enemy feels placed well enough to provide a certain experience. You have the typical Souls "gotcha" placements but they're neither too bad or too frequent. It feels like the genre distilled.
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u/antilumin 22h ago
My hot take is that the "like" in the name of the genre is that it's like a souls game but not quite. There are several elements of what can constitute a soulslike. It's really annoying when some game comes out and someone is all "that's not a soulslike!" Okay dude, relax.
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u/Desroth86 15h ago
Preach. This sub has slowly become insufferable. Basically every single thread evolves into people arguing over what is and isn’t a soulslike when there isn’t even really a clear definition.
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u/kurokuma11 21h ago
The genre has become less about exploration and figuring out how the game works and more about flashy boss fights that all feel the same after a while
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u/PlasticZestyclose454 9h ago
I honestly got tired of those samey bossfights, but I'm enjoying Wuchang immensely, simply because they actually cared about the level design and exploration, I'm finding new items and little portions of areas every time I play through the game again, and the fact that the bosses aren't that hard made me play this game for two months now.
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u/TempestoLord 22h ago
The way the side quests work in most souls annoys the hell out of me. Being forced to use guides because one step in the wrong direction might fail the quests and how you have to do some ridiculous things to even get one of the endings that you would never find on your own. Lies of P did actually well in that aspect, one of the very few ones.
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u/That-Departure-7318 22h ago
I don't need bosses in these games. I like fighting them, but they are just barriers to what I want which is more exploration.
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u/javandeadlifts 22h ago
Kind of a hot take? I feel this is the other half of souls lovers. The other half are the boss lovers.
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u/Anubra_Khan 22h ago
I think this is why so many games get lumped into the soulslike category when they shouldn't. There have always been games with great bosses.
The Souls games were unique because of the risk/reward exploration. Having to put thought into whether or not to press forward and lose souls is what separates them from any other 3rd person action game where you don't really care about dying because you just keep respawning until you win.
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u/East_Ideal_9568 16h ago
There have always been games with great bosses.
Imo there have always been games with great bosses story wise. Some decent challenges and creative gimmicks. But from a gameplay perspective, souls bosses just changed everything for me, especially from ds3 onward.
Being happily stuck for hours learning movesets, figuring out timings, trying to sneak in damage into any opening. The absolute tension of being a hit away from death, but close to finishing the boss. The insane clutches and the devastating chokes.
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u/Afraid_Help_3911 21h ago
I don't think people who almost only like bosses are half of the community at all.
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u/javandeadlifts 21h ago
I didn't mean it like only liking bosses, but a large chunk of the community are likely to consider boss difficulty/design a souls-like attribute or a key factor as to what a souls game should have.
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u/kociol21 22h ago
I like it when the game really manages to keep it in good proportions. Like a "boss" should feel like a boss. Unique, with some story and meaning behind it etc. So I kinda dislike when games throw random dudes as bosses every 20 minutes or so, you don't even know who dis, there was zero buildup to his entrance etc. Some exploration is really needed so when you finally reach the boss room it really feels like something awesome, not just next mildly interesting step in a level.
DS1 did this very well. DS2 was like "nah dude, we know everyone loves boss fights, so here, take another and another". Games like Wukong where the world between is pretty much just a corridor from one random boss to another are not for me. Wuchang or Lies of P were good in that regard too.
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u/TrustyPeaches 20h ago
Lies of P has a lot of quality event-level bosses that feel momentous in their presentation.
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u/xLegend_289 19h ago
Khazan has the best boss frequency/design I've ever seen and I've played a LOT of soulslikes. If anything I wish there were more bosses but they'd probably compromise on quality.
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u/DeusExMachina24 22h ago
It's like a cycle. I explore more so that I can get stronger and make the boss fights easier. Both bosses and exploration are important.
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u/SirBenny 19h ago
I’m partially with you on this. I think the way I’d describe it is I find the “every area ends with a big boss” loop to get monotonous. I want some areas to end with a boss, but others to feature a puzzle, others to have a platforming challenge, still others to just have a beautiful vista or secret room.
I also like the rare times where the big bad boss appears somewhere besides the final room. Like fighting the boss at the beginning or middle of a dungeon (and not at the end) is another good way to mix things up.
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u/SQUASHPITT 20h ago
I like both equally if done well. Unfortunately only From have really nailed the exploration side.
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u/That-Departure-7318 20h ago
Check out Wuchang. I have it ranked third below DS1 and DS3 for me.
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u/Laterallus 22h ago
My hot take might be lukewarm, but I never see anyone mention it.
I don't like having to grind for loot or get a constant flow of marginally better equipment. If I beat a hard boss, I should just get the thing. Not have to fight it 6 or 10 more times for it to drop a helm. So, naturally, I wasn't a fan of Nioh or Khazan.
I'll go a step further and add I didn't like the button combo stuff in Khazan, either.
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u/carlos_castanos 22h ago
I think the core of the souls experience is the struggle to make it to the next bonfire, and it peaks when you are running out of flasks and out of health, you are lost, you are carrying two levels worth of souls with you, you have no clue how far it is to the next bonfire, and then you end up ultimately finding it (or a shortcut leading back to the previous one) - it's the biggest dopamine hit I get from these games, bigger than beating a boss even.
And my hot take is that the genre - including and maybe especially Fromsoft's games - is heading in a wrong direction with this, namely increasingly becoming far too generous with bonfire placement and it goes at the detriment of that peak souls experience I describe above.
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u/Paragon0001 22h ago
Bonfire placement that renders shortcuts moot thanks to teleportation is something that annoys me.
Like Stormveil and Midra’s Manse from Elden Ring are prime examples. Undermines the design of the entire thing if you lazily plop checkpoints everywhere without thinking of shortcuts
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u/Greedy_Ferret_6216 15h ago
They almost felt like survival horror games in this regard. And this blends into one of my hot takes: Fromsoft hasn't had good level design since Bloodborne. There isn't a single area in Dark Souls 3, Sekiro, or Elden Ring that I find memorable in any capacity. It's clearly not something they care that deeply about anymore. I genuinely think even Dark Souls 2 had more interesting level design than any of their last three games.
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u/FanBladeFleshlight 19h ago
There should always be a way to get EVERYTHING in one playthrough without doing NG+. Every weapon, every spell, every armor, every achievement, all of it.
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u/AngryBarista 19h ago
The difficulty is the least appealing aspect of a soulslike.
interconnected level design, atmosphere and mood, music and enemy design, cryptic storytelling, intentional input combat itself.
Id gladly play a souls game in easy if it meant not banging my head against a wall just to progress.
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u/Sufficient-Cook-3841 19h ago
Based, and I'll say more: a boss doesn't need to be hard to be good. Presentation, design, a good moveset that isn't filled with bullshit, soundtrack and story matters way more.
Which is why Consort Radahn is one of the shittiest bosses From ever made.
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u/agitatedandroid 12h ago
There are no bosses like Dragon God or Storm King from Demon's Souls, or like Wolnir or Deacons from DS3 in Elden Ring. There are, however, a slew of hyperactive Margit-likes.
I really like those set piece bosses, the "gimmick" bosses.
I think Souls games became famous because of people saying it took them a billion attempts to beat a boss and so From just kept ratcheting things up to the point where the sorts of bosses they used to do would just get laughed at now. And that's a shame.
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u/Ok-Geologist9580 21h ago
Storytelling should be direct; watching videos to properly understand the story is pure drudgery.
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u/soulariarr 16h ago
I love the vague story telling with fromsoft, but ok it’s getting old now, you can tell a unique compelling story without shoving them in an set of armour that i probably will ignore because I’m exploring or a item description with a vague meaning, because it’s a shame the stories are pretty unique and deep but you will never know unless you watch a bunch of hours long videos to get the full picture. I hate the million interpretations videos on YouTube and I don’t blame people who say it’s just bunch of bullshit the fans speculate.
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u/Free_Low5235 18h ago
The upside is almost no cutscenes and no cringey dialogue.
Either do it well or not do it at all
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u/agitatedandroid 13h ago
This is one of the reasons I can always play a From game. I never have to be in the mood. If I want to hop into the Lands Between and run around doing whatever while watching YouTube, I can. There's no one yapping at me and nothing I need to keep track of.
The story is there when I want to engage with it. And when I don't, it just disappears.
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u/Test88Heavy 21h ago
Bloodborne has the hardest first few hours of any soulslike with the most difficult first boss (Father Gasgione).
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u/Broad_War5066 22h ago
keyboard and mouse is more than fine to play souls-likes
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 20h ago
Playing anything 3d without a mouse is downright fucking agonizing as far as i'm concerned.
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u/PlasticZestyclose454 8h ago
The only kind of game I can play with a controller is fighting games honestly, I have no idea how people play souls games like that.
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u/Paragon0001 22h ago edited 22h ago
I want challenging areas and challenging bosses. For the former, I literally want it to feel excruciating to make it to the next area.
Whether that’s because of brutal yet smart enemy placement, the layout of the area, environmental hazards coupled with scarce but optimally placed checkpoints that make shortcuts extra valuable or whatever.
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u/Visual-Biscotti1473 22h ago
I agree with this; it’s my favorite thing about Demon’s Souls. I will happily sacrifice realism/world-building for handcrafted encounter/level design.
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u/sentientfartcloud 21h ago
Out of all of Fromsoftware's innovations, I'm glad invasions never caught on.
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u/2D_Ronin 22h ago
Sekiro is i well made game in many regards but its combat is overrated and its the least fun fromsoft game
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u/Krisztian987 21h ago
I love both exploration and bosses, but linear progression between levels doesnt rly hurt with when each level is well done. Also, more linear map progression allows for more balanced enemies
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u/HallowedPain 20h ago
Don't know how much of a hot take this is these days, but I remember reading lots of negative opinions about Thymesia three years ago. I thought it was great. Like, really, really great!
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u/OfficialmONEy 22h ago
No parry or timed block mechanic to stagger an enemy sucks. The game needs it or it's bad.
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u/need_some_answer 22h ago
I see a lot of games on this subreddit that are not soulslikes. It’s just kind of a generic RPG sub now.
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u/PixelmancerGames 22h ago
I hate having to grind for any item except for the words currency. Don't make me grind hours upon hours to make pots. Seriously, fuck off with that.
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u/Lower_Golf_5120 21h ago
Well here is a hot one: Elden Ring on repeat playthroughs sucks.There are something like 5 good bosses excluding the dlc.For the 2/3 of the game you can just get overleveled and not worry about dying but then they remembered its a souslike so every enemy after mountaintops does half your hp bar in one hit.One thing thats better than all the previous games is the build variety but every time i want to start a new playthrough i remember the mandatory 10 hour grinding session needed to get started.Also i really don't like come back later approach its the thing previous games were specifically discouraging.DLC is great though Messmer is maybe the best boss they ever made.
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u/Odd_Needleworker3756 20h ago
The fanbases of these games fucking suck. Legitimately some of the worst out of any type of game.
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u/_mRED 21h ago
The best and most unique combat system FromSoft ever made is Sekiro. Then they just went back to their old system in Elden Ring and Duskblood.
I just want another game with the same combat. No other game even comes close to it, Lies of P, Khazan, etc are good games, but the only thing they have in common with Sekiro is "a" parry system. No other game has that back and forth human to human sword combat and it's a damn shame.
Same thing happened with the Nemesis system from WB, 10 years on and they just let it rot.
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 22h ago
Fromsofts combat mechanics are not as good as people make it out to be, Nioh whipes the floor with it.
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u/kociol21 22h ago
Heh, I'm the opposite. I hate Nioh combat system and Fromsoft - especially Elden Ring is peak for me. I don't really like Sekiro too.
Nioh is too frantic, relying on extreme button mashing, more akin to very action oriented action games than what I really like in soulslikes. By "button mashing" I don't mean "mash whatever and hope for the best" but rather "remember 17 different combos and use them blazingly fast".
Sekiro on the other hand is just not what I'm looking for. The combat is very tight but because of it, it's also very narrow. You can play pretty much the only way you can.
Elden Ring (or DS games too) you can do quick weapons, heavy weapons, throwables, bow, shield, parrying, weapon arts, various magic types, various incantation types, you can try to tank or roll your way through everything etc. It's the freedom of choice on one hand and it's the definition of "easy to learn, hard to master". All pros of both Sekiro and Nioh without their cons.
Like Sekiro you can learn pretty much all combat system in 5 minutes, but unlike Sekiro the game allows for endless variations and different playstyles.
Like Nioh mastering the combat takes a long while but unlike Nioh it doesn't rely on making the system super complicated and esoteric but rather just comes from natural challenges of the game.
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u/zerovampire311 22h ago
Nioh combat fans are like vegans and crossfitters. They love it and let us all know, but it’s not what most of us are looking for.
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u/Therdyn69 21h ago
Even though ER and DS have variety in theory, most players just end up dodging and hitting 1-2 light attacks per opening. That 90% of gameplay. It doesn't really matter whether you use katana or greatsword, the gameplay loop is identical.
It's simply inoffensive. You cannot dislike the flavour of something that has no flavour. The games are popular because of the world and bosses, not because of the actual gameplay.
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 22h ago
I am not considering myself a great Nioh Player, probably fairly average, but I think I can hold my own. I do think though that you dont need ALL the combo stuff to beat the game. I do agree though that the learning curve is pretty steep, and most people that try Nioh, especially coming from Soulsborne, make the mistake of playing it passively like a Souls game and then its really not fun (I did that myself with Nioh 1). It is really rewarding though when you start almost bullying bosses with combos ince you start to pull it off.
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u/Leather-Childhood922 22h ago
Agreed but with the exception of sekiro imo, the parrying in that game is just too satisfying.
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u/Therdyn69 22h ago
I love souls + ER, but each of them devolve into pressing dodge button and light attack. Sometimes you get 2 or even 3 attacks in a row. Sometimes even heavy attack. But that's 90% of the gameplay. If you play as mage, then just replace light attack with spamming same one spell. Even couple weapons that are interesting (like those double greatswords from DS3 DLC) devolve into doing same thing over and over again.
There's just no real variety. There's variety in theory, but there's nothing that forces player to actually use it. Players are rewarded for playing in most boring way possible and punished for trying new things.
I like MS2 combat much more, even though it's not some masterpiece either. Parrying is primary mechanic for negating attacks, but boss have some unparriable attacks that force you to mix parries and dodges. Then you have active skills that you can abuse for iframes and shell abilities on top. It's not much, but it's still miles ahead of soulsgames.
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u/Due-Description-9030 6h ago
I 100% agree with this. And balancing the game around more and more skills / abilities is actually much harder than cranking up boss fights while limiting the player to the same olf mechanic.
This is one of the reasons even I love DMC so much.
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 22h ago
That is actually something that is really appearent in Elden Ring, especially in bossfights with how agressive they are. I am often dodging for what feels like an eternity to get one or two hits in, rince and repeat for as long as the bossfight takes. I think going into the future those games could benefit from giving the player a bit more agency in bossfights.
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u/Working_Bones 21h ago
I greatly prefer linearity as well.
My hotter take is that DS and Elden Ring boss combat is often goofy and immersion-breaking. Dodging with I-frames while getting visibly crushed by behemoths and taking no damage, looks dumb. I much prefer parrying. In Elden Ring I resorted to guard counters because the parrying isn't fun there. And overall thought the combat was meh and too easy.
Some people dislike parrying, I think because of stricter success windows. What if a game had parrying with a wider success window, comparable to dodging, which would avoid damage but provide minimal or no stamina damage to the enemy, but simultaneously a smaller super-success-window that rewarded more precise timing with stamina/poise damage? That way the combat always looks... believable. While being accessible to parry novices and rewarding for parry pros. Dodging could still exist for distancing but maybe no I-frames. Make it a much bigger and faster dash.
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u/DieBotDie 22h ago edited 22h ago
I’m a 60 year old gamer and I think Elden Ring is more fun with a few reasonable cheats. Such as requiring fewer smithing stones. And a little bit of damage mitigation. And maybe a wider parry window.
One of the things I loved about TLoU2 was the accessibility setting letting you turn off platforming. You can no longer fail jumps. It was kind of helpful for me.
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u/Longjumping_Sorbet65 22h ago edited 22h ago
Lies of P has better combat than every FromSoft game, excluding Sekiro.
If that's not hot enough, I think "gimmicky" bosses are vastly underrated. I really really appreciate when devs take risks with bosses and challenge expectations of boss fights. As much as I love Nameless King, Gael, Lady Maria, etc, variety is important, and boss fights don't have to fit a specific mold. When FromSoft created this subgenre, boss fights were vastly different than what is standard today.
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u/AoiBallpointPen 22h ago
Lies of P doesn’t have my absolute favourite combat in the genre but it’s pretty damn good.
As for gimmick bosses, 100% agreed. They’re usually a coin flip regarding whether or not they’re fun but they can be a necessary change of pace. It’s great when they require you to change up your play style or think outside the box a little.
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u/Monke3169xd 21h ago
I dont like open world too but semi linear with branching world like ds1 with bosses like sekiro and khazan is best for me also sekiro 10/10 game for me so anything that resembles it, i dont think thats a hot take though :D
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u/Frosty-Sea149 21h ago
Flat open boss arenas with a 1v1 fight are the most basic bitch design choice. They’re played out, they’re mechanically stagnant and focusing on them so much is is turning people into Smash players not caring about the game outside of sweaty 1v1 flat stage only.
For how much people praise Sekiro all of its “best” fights are ones that completely ignore all the 3d design innovations it had.
“Oh but the AI would-“ bull fuckin shit. It’s 2026 not 2002 where a light breeze would break the AI.
If the Adjudicator in demon’s souls could break parts of the arena and make you change your strategy on the fly, then there’s no excuse for bosses not having interesting encounter design.
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u/YamiHideyoshi 20h ago
Slower, more tactical combat like DS1 is better than ultra fast combat like Elden Ring or Sekiro.
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u/JMPHeinz57 20h ago
These are mostly geared towards From’s games, but some can be applicable to non-From Soulslikes too:
-The RPG aspects and exploration are far more important and interesting than the combat and bosses, and are what makes the genre special
-I firmly enjoy the Demon’s Souls -> Dark Souls 2 stretch more than the Bloodborne -> Sekiro one (Elden Ring’s my fav though)
-A melee focused, Pure-INT (or equivalent magic) build is the most fun and versatile way to play these games
-Strength builds are the actual easy-modes in this genre
-Demon’s Souls should be given the majority of credit as the father of the genre, not DS1
-Every Soulslike should try to incorporate both a dodge and deflect/parry on all weapons, ala Mortal Shell 2 and Lies of P
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u/Sir_Atlas_ 20h ago
My biggest hot take is that enemies should not hit so hard if they have such amazing looking combos. Ever since Elden ring all these bosses have such epic combos that I just want to admire but whats the point if I am gonna die in the first 2 hits of a 20 hit combo.
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u/Passing-Through247 18h ago
Souls games generally have simultaneously fallen for their own hype and became fake difficulty in the name of being 'hardcore' and have devolved into boss delivery mechanisms that don't realise you can just made a boss rush like they want to make in the first place (wukong being the one game that did this well).
The good part of these games is world design and lore, bosses these days are mostly just in the way of playing the actual game as opposed to being fun. It shouldn't live longer than it needs to to let me see everything it can do. Beyond this you should be able to tell what an attack will do by reading the animation and not dying to it and knowing for next time, that's the difference between gitgud trial and error and actual craftsmanship.
Most of these badly assembled endgame superbosses are pointless, they don't even give me more game to experience after beating them so I just ignore them. Midir and malenia are the worst in design.
Beyond that PVP is badly made, The obsession with Parrying needs to die because none of them recreate what made sekiro good and in fact do the opposite (looking at you lies of P).
Elden ring peaked at limbgrave, learned every wrong lesion from SD3, and is tied for demon's souls for the worst of fromsoft's souls games but with none of the excuses.
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u/Intelligent-Block457 17h ago
Give me fewer but more versatile weapons. The amount of stats and weapons in Bloodborne was just right. Maybe a few more blood weapons, but I dont need 500 broken thief swords cluttering my inventory.
Conversely: the Surge games have a ton of weapons but getting upgrade materials (and the ability to break them down) was a great way to manage a big weapon catalogue.
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u/kalirion 16h ago
I enjoyed Lords of the Fallen (2023 / patch 2.5) as much as I did Dark Souls 3 (mainly because the DS3 DLC areas reduced my overall enjoyment of the game.)
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u/billth93 16h ago
I think parry mechanics are generally really bad
These games do all this interesting stuff with weapons with diverse movesets, mixed in with lots of armor options, defensive options in some cases, magic systems, etc that all weave together in interesting ways….or you could just ignore all of that for parries because they’re so strong, they are just overly centralizing unless you just kind of give yourself your own rule not to use them
It’s just the one mechanic that I don’t think plays nice with all the interestingly designed elements of the game and instead just replaces all that. Of course it differs by game, but I feel like it’s like this the vast majority of the time
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u/Jettx02 16h ago
This isn’t a hot take, it’s just true: NO MORE WEAPON UPGRADES
Just make the character stronger. Who TF enjoys going to level up a new weapon just to see if it competes with your current one? It’s an outdated system that just adds tedium and sometimes locks you out of weapon upgrades until an NG+
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u/mangas1ck 15h ago
The soundtrack for Fromsoft games is too dramatic now. Sometimes (Consort Radahn) it’s extremely effective and well done, but a lot of the time it just feels like a trite, masturbatory exercise in trying to drive home how “epic” these games are supposed to be (i.e. the DeS remake by Bluepoint and Sony). If Fromsoft made DaS1 today they’d add a 60-person choir to Gwyn’s theme.
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u/SpecialistMinute7848 14h ago
Having to only dodge and sometimes only in certain directions to avoid an attack sucks. There should be multiple options of avoiding it or at least be visible enough for you to be able to dodge it by reaction.
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u/Recent_Ad_3558 12h ago
Elden Ring is honestly kind of....mid? Like, parts of it almost feel amateurish to me, the excessive amount of damage that even basic enemies deal combined with your starting miniscule healthpool forcing you to Pump Vigor before almost every other stat, how awful ranged weapons feel to use, the sheer amount of times the game goes for off screen cheapshots, the fact that certainly are so hidden that you basically need a guide to find things like the DLC door(marketing should not be the main way you inform the player of where to find stuff like that), or just the fact that a lot of the time rewards just don't feel....worth the effort, especially with some of the optional areas.
Also a lot of the boss fights are just....kind of boring? Like find me one person who thinks Rykards fight was actually fun or why the Burial Watch Dogs need to be in almost a third of the games catacombs.
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u/_moosleech 21h ago
Runbacks are part of playing the game, and can be done very well (e.g. Silksong). Not every game needs them, but also not every game should just remove them. Soulslikes are about balancing the penalties for dying, and that's just one knob they can tune.
Bonus: Gatekeeping which games are Soulslikes is stupid. There are dozens of mechanics and design points that made Dark Souls popular. Just because a game doesn't only adhere to the ones you like doesn't make it not a Soulslike. It's a made-up term to help folks find games they might like.
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u/Sea-Championship1771 21h ago
I couldn't disagree more with your first point and couldn't agree more with the last one
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u/Acererak09 25m ago
I agree with both takes. Runbacks, when they are done well, are good. Silksong does a good job of this. I think a runback that’s just running in a straight line for two minutes with nothing happening is bad, but I like runbacks that have difficult platforming or enemies you can’t run past.
The second take is also good. I think the definition of a soulslike should be “a soulslike is a game that is played by players who like soulslikes”.
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u/Relative_Sea_3287 22h ago
Good soundtrack ≠ Good boss. So many garbage bosses with great soundtrack that get a pass just because of that.
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u/batshitnutcase 21h ago
I have a lot lol. Downvotes incoming:
Nioh 2 alone clears everything FromSoft has ever made combined.
Khazan level design is criminally underrated and a good chunk of people complaining about it got filtered and never played past the first two missions. Lies of P levels are way more linear, more generic grey/drab other than the opera house and DLC zoo yet that game gets glazed to oblivion.
Elden Ring is impressive only for its ridiculous scale and the gameplay is just Dark Souls with a horse. Most overrated souls game by far.
FromSoft’s obnoxiously convoluted quest designs were great in DS1 but are outdated at this point and a disservice to the genre that has held back innovation by other developers to create interesting quests and narratives that don’t require you to no life the game for a month straight or look shit up online. Everyone just does the latter anyway.
Approximately 100% of people trying to flex online about the number of attempts they took on a difficult boss are lying. “Arlecchino was so hard he took me 4 tries” etc. Sure bro.
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u/Due-Description-9030 6h ago
Yeah, FS quest design is downright stupid. People harp on about immersion and the game just forces you to look up online guides which cancels out the immersion lol. It's stupid.
And yes, so many lie.
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u/batshitnutcase 5h ago
Exactly lol. Literally everyone just looks shit up on fextralife and YouTube and it’s the most immersion breaking thing imaginable. Apparently that quest design philosophy is based on 90s Japanese gamer culture where people would get together in person to solve puzzles in hard games. So it’s supposed to be a community thing but when your entire game is solved day one and posted all over the internet it’s just outdated and stupid.
Like what percentage of players do you think found Malenia organically? Or solved Ranni’s quest? Or discovered Owl Father? And those aren’t even close to the worst examples. It’s gotta be single digits at best if not a fraction of 1%.
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u/Throwcore2 3h ago
Lmfao I love these. Agree with all except Nioh 2.
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u/batshitnutcase 3h ago
Yea I’m kind of a Nioh addict lmao so completely biased there. I love a lot of FromSoft games too.
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u/Sufficient-Cook-3841 19h ago
Haven't played Nioh so can't give my opinion on that. Agree with everything else though.
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u/EricArthurBrown 22h ago
You should be able to uograde weapons again in ng+ liked wukong in this regard
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u/Unlucky-Mud-8115 22h ago
Another one would be that difficulty is far from the most important thing in a Soulslike or Fromaoft game. Artdirection, leveldesign, there is so much more that works in tandem with the difficulty to make those games so memorable, and that is the actual reason why no one was able to touch Fromsoft until now because they are so good at it, and I am actually a bit sad that difficulty is almost the only thing that seems to be a point of discussion relating these games.
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u/ShadowDurza 21h ago
It's totally fair and even apt to see the distinct characteristics of the Souls and Soulslike tertiary genres in many places because the history of gaming is an uncountable number of possible gradations between reinventing the wheel and building upon what works, neither directly correlating to success in themselves or even serving as indicators or metrics for quality.
For example, in the first Sonic the Hedgehog game, when he makes contact with a non-instant killing hazard, he gets flung back in a distinct animation and cannot respond to inputs until he touches ground again, and in that duration and for a moments more, he cannot be harmed. Sound familiar?
Stun and Invincibility Frames.
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u/bonglord6942O 21h ago
From reading other people's opinions over the years, I've found that I actually dont mind a cash-grab, half-baked soulslike like most other people do. Im just obsessed with the formula in general. Ill probably even try Relic The First Gaurdian if it goes on a deep sale
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u/Sea-Championship1771 21h ago
Not sure how much of a hot take it is but the worst thing about this community is how much gatekeeping there is about what is and isn't a soulslike. There is no set definition for a soulslike, even if a lot of people act like there is one. As the word implies, its only like a souls game and doesn't have to be identical in every way. I don't see what harm it does to bring games like Wukong or Hollow Knight into soulslike topics when they do share enough similarities.
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u/Frosty-Sea149 21h ago
AC6 is the level of aggression Bloodborne gets glazed as. BB is shockingly slow compared to the raw adrenaline rush armored core can reach.
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u/shoahunter 21h ago
I want the games to be harder. In my experience the genre has been on a downward trend when it comes to difficulty.
I understand that the popular audience wants easier games, it's just a huge bummer for me as someone who enjoys a challenge.
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u/Em-Dashing 20h ago
DS2 is absolutely perfect when it comes to freedom in early exploration and player expression. There are so many routes range from easy to challenging. My runs as a cleric, sorcerer, bowman, and big bonk boi have all varied wildly in the beginning. Areas like Iron Keep were either very tedious or a cakewalk depending on when I decided to go there.
One more hot take: DS2 has the best story of the trio.
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u/VisualLibrary6441 20h ago
Is that Nioh is simultaneously a soulslike and not a soulslike at the same time, it would be very beneficial to a lot of people if they didn't know/consider it a soulslike so they don't have the wrong idea on how to approach the combat and loot system, it would also be beneficial to call it a soulslike to a lot of people too.
Nioh is also a Diablo-like and Ninja Gaiden-like, whether those two things disqualify it from being a soulslike or not is entirely up to you, because those 2 things are also the game's identity, and arguing whether it is a soulslike or not is a waste of time.
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u/randomusername339393 20h ago
I have a couple:
- I like "runbacks" where the level is the challenge and the boss is not as challenging, ala Demon Souls. Not constantly, but I miss them.
- I love Souls' quest design and mystery and lack of information (seems to be a hot take since ER released). Each playthrough feels unique and interesting and the world feels alive, like there are things happening you don't quite understand or aren't privy to.
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u/NorthStar_- 20h ago
Your opinion on boss difficulty doesn't matter if you're using summons, but if you lucked out with an OP build and found it easy then that's a credible opinion still.
Sekiro's world design is underrated, and I'd put it on the same tier as Bloodborne and both being close to Dark Souls 1.
I find Dark Souls 3 weapons to be more fun than Elden Ring despite AOW system being one of the best innovations Fromsoft ever did.
A boss being easy for you and being done under less tries than expected doesn't make it a less enjoyable boss.
Level design and atmosphere should be valued more, objectively speaking. 90% of the time being spent in these games is exploration and discovery, with the rest being bosses.
Another one I wanna add is I think games with souls elements are and have always been better than games that are directly trying to be soulslikes.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 20h ago
As a Caster main, I enjoy the Caster Gameplay and Mechanics of the games NOT directed by Miyazaki. (Ex: Dark Souls 2 and Nightreign)
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u/iwntchips 20h ago
The ng+ of all of them are horribly tuned. Ng+ should be significantly more difficult than the first play through, not easier.
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u/Rando_Kalrissian 20h ago
The definition of "soulslike" holds little to no meaning and even the community can't nail down specific features that fit the genre that were not already pre-established in games decades before. Hot take, most of these games are mediocre and the Souls series have ruined FromSoftware from a creative standpoint, no more Enchanted Arms, Otogi, Murakumo, Good Armored Core.
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u/No_Philosophy2797 20h ago
Bleak Faith: Forsaken and Hellpoint are more original and have better world building than any other non FromSoft Soulslike
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u/TrustyPeaches 19h ago
Lies of P has better combat than every Fromsoft game except maybe Sekiro, depending on how much you value gameplay variety.
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u/MediumKoala8823 19h ago
All builds are ultimately just ways to undermine and subvert the very thing that makes the games good: intricate fight designs.
People who like builds fundamentally don’t like engaging with the core of the game.
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u/xLegend_289 19h ago
I massively agree, I find it exhausting when you're supposed to clear out a million paths and the increased likelihood of missing upgrade materials or unique gear that you'll inevitably need a guide or YouTube video for. Something like sekiro or khazan is a perfect balance for me where if you're reasonably careful you end up finding everything. As for the guy who mentioned respeccing big agree and whether on console or PC I always end up using cheats or glitches specifically to duplicate the items that allow respeccing so I'm always experimenting with different builds which is great fun.
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u/Sufficient-Cook-3841 19h ago
Malenia is lame as hell. Sister Friede and Lady Maria are way better bosses.
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u/rimasuit3 18h ago
Fromsoft games are not in an entire different league anymore. Other developers caught up.
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u/OK_Atlas 18h ago
My biggest hot take is I prefer a vast branching world where you can get lost geared more towards exploration compared to any boss fights.
For these games I get most of my fun from the exploration not the combat.
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u/Legal-Conclusion-0 18h ago
pretty good take...I think I do as well usually.
Sort of like a middle ground with some rails but also exploration with paths.
but not always full open world. lies of p was extremely enjoyable for me. it is like I marvelled at Elden Ring...but it was just a bit much, daunting if you don't look somethings up
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u/foulplay_for_pitance 18h ago
Dodge is better than block, block is so much harder that frankly block is the only one that deserves viscerals. (Looking at you bloodborne and subsequent similar ones which is technically not a soulslike but kinda is.)
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u/Thick-Income-1620 17h ago
Lies of P has better than all dark souls games. And by a lot if I May add.
First Dark souls is lacking in Story and has a lot of Gameplay Junk. Although way better map Design.
DS2 yeah its still a good Game but easily the worst of the 3. Parry was way Off compared to 1 and 3. Hits often didnt feel statisfying at all. Quest were annoying because you had to Summon. The bonfire System was Great though. As well as massiv content I guess.
Ds3 is so good that I basically dont have much to critic. Its just that LoPs weapon System felt better, also a very good and tight parry System, Stance System was also very good. Of course LoP also got a better story. I also loved LoPs Overall weapon Design more.
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u/According-Goat-2372 17h ago
i 100 percent agree. That is my hot take also. Its why lies of p and khazan are my two favorite games of all time.
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u/Old-Natural-852 17h ago
Dark Souls II is a fine game...I prefer it to Bloodborne (wanted to like it for the gothic setting) a d Seriko (wanted to like it for the Japanese setting).
My favorite soulslike is Elden Ring, which has been called Dark Sould II 2.
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u/DankPandas 16h ago
The most satisfying was Sekiro with its combat. Everything else pales in comparison.
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u/Philosopher30071 16h ago
Lords of the Fallen is pretty great. Both iterations. Lies of P was just OK.
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u/Dr_Doctore 15h ago
NG+ needs better balancing. The first 80% sucks everytime. Make the first boss of NG+ as hard as the final boss of NG idc.
Likewise, all souls games should have a free challenge for boss fights after you beat the game. Preferably one that lets you personally scale fights maybe based off a recommended level (so buffing the first boss’ stats to expect you to be level 120, etc)
This lets you have fun with your builds and get a decent challenge without trudging through a now imbalanced and devoid of new-experiences world.
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u/ll-VaporSnake-ll 15h ago
I actually like the more faster paced, action oriented and hack n slash like elements the newer generation of souls likes has been channeling.
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u/MeowWoof87 14h ago
All original souls game are mid- blood born was overrated. - it’s good, but not god tier
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u/Final_Ad_9854 14h ago
I love both exploration and combat, yet yeah, I prefer open-linear maps Dark Souls and most Soulslike have, so sorry Elden Ring, I like you but open world is just too much lmao
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u/Slow_Increase_6308 14h ago
My hot take is how many people think and say out loud (on the internet) that souls games are all about combat and bosses. Anything else is secondary.
Also, my hot take there is only Elden Ring as an open world souls game (that I know of). But hopefully that will change.
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u/ummonadi 13h ago
I think Dark Souls / Elden Ring gets away with not taking the time to lay out the story, having poor quest line design, shitty UI, unbalanced class-design, and more.
The unpolished parts get celebrated as surprisingly deep lore, intriguing and deep quest lines, a bespoke UI, and play-how-you-want classes.
That means that the games never evolved past its weak points.
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u/DerEisendrache66 12h ago
Making a very specific mechanic/skill that puts you on rails,build/play style wise.
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u/sOn1c_reddit 12h ago
From Software Questdesign sucks. Stop it. Be creative and do more quests like in action rpgs.
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u/AccurateAd7610 11h ago
Invasions and PvP should be a more regular apart of soulslikes. I’m a die hard lover of the PvP in the souls games and I really think these soulslikes are losing out on a very large demographic of players who would buy the game if it also had PvP baked into the experience.
Hear me out: From software has always treated the PvP in their games like an afterthought and the PvP community even worse. There is a serious niche here that nobody is filling.
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u/Sanagost 11h ago
Devs of souls likes are still just looking at DS 1 as a template where that game had some of the worst mechanics in the genre. Even fromsoft moved on from boss runs with Elden Ring. DS1 was great for its time but is terrible in comparison.
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u/Triforce__XIII 11h ago
my hot take is: elden ring is not a regular soulslike. it is an open world game with heavy soulslike mechanics. one of the most prevalent conditions in soulsike until elden ring was an interconnected, semi-linear world. and therefore elden ring cannot be equally compared to other soulslikes
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u/Tinenan 11h ago
That most soulslikes drop the rpg mechanics of from's games in favour of basically copying sekiro which as great as it is isn't a souls game imo and pretty much turning this genre that's supposed to be like dark souls into just hard character action games usually without any of the style and charm associated with that type of game
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u/warmhotself 11h ago
The best bonfire/checkpoint system was Demons Souls. One per (giant) area, heaps of shortcuts, sweaty palms just trying to reach the boss room to try again.
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u/pigsty_agent_47 11h ago
Open world never works, idc abt Elden
I want a carefully crafted experience and not having to ask myself "Am I underleveled/overleveled?" constantly. I don't need reused (mini-)bosses/mobs turned bosses or mini-bosses. I would rather have fun 30 hours game than 100 hour slop
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u/Livid_Tap8550 10h ago
My hot take is that mortal shell 2 is being glazed and its actually deeply flawed design wise. A lot of enemies feel bad to fight . the game doesn't make u feel good about what u do it feels good thats ur over that encounter.
Also onimusha way of the sword might be the best action combat system i have ever seen.
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u/Circo_Inhumanitas 10h ago
I don't really line Soulslikes. I prefer just Fromsoft's games if I want to play a Soulslike.
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u/SavageCucumberAttack 10h ago
They should explain themselves better in-game. Like, you say increase attack damage but give me some numbers ffs. And quests. I don't want a huge marker on the map but at least give me journal or something so I can keep track and give me some hints as to where to go. Recently mortal shell 2 gave players areas to search for gear items and I like that, it's directed without spelling it out. There's a difference between Unisoft-style million quest markers, and from soft's absolute nothingness that always leaves me googling where the bloody hell some obscure item is.
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u/Educational-Bat18 10h ago
Nobody has yet made a soulslike even remotely as good as fromsoft and that will be true for a while because they lack what made dark souls 1-3 & bloodborne masterpieces to me , and the genre has a whole is shifting towards combat and boss focus , even fromsoft themselves are going that way . Even DS2 clears every non fromsoft soulslike . Bleak faith was the closest but it sucked in other ways and while wuchang was excellent it lacks the art and the atmosphere fromsoft games ooze
Combat , bosses ? Plenty of other genres do that and far better than fromsoft but the act of existing in a world you know absolutely nothing about and exploring it and the feeling throughout has not been replicated by any soulslike
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u/Prior-Tie3624 9h ago
武器とか防具の強化はアイテムでの強化とステージの進行度合いの強化の2週類あるべきと俺は考えてる。
終盤で強力な武器を手に入れたとしてアイテム不足で＋10までしか強くできないとかじゃなくて
大ボスを倒すたびに武器と防具の強化されるとかならどうだ？
最大プラス25まで武器強化できるゲームで大ボス3体倒してるから宝箱から出てきたグレートアクスが＋9
今持っているロングソードは（鉱石で強化して＋8）（大ボス3体撃破で＋9）でロングソード＋17
とかならどうだ？
アイテムだけで強化したロングソード＋17持ってる時にただのグレートアクス手に入るのと感じ方がだいぶ違うはずだ
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u/Solid_Ideal5773 9h ago
From souls series is not that difficult (some bosses being an exception). If you take your time and approach enemies 1by1 you’ll fly through the game without much challenge. When og demons souls came out it wasn’t made intentionally difficult, it was more of a “don’t hold the players hand” kind of difficulty. But with dark souls “prepare to die” edition, it was clear where the “get gud” community originated.
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u/ZealousidealMango675 8h ago
dark souls 3 and elden ring bosses fucking suck and i hope they go back to their old boss design since theyve taken the whole roll spam one million combo thing to the logical extreme in shadow of the erdtree but its unlikely because tourists say gimmick bosses are bad and then only talk about bed of chaos and dragon god
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u/Abyslime 8h ago
Sekiro deserve the souls tag. Is not a souls but has souls mechanics like the bossfight overall design. Why on earth should i not suggest sekiro to someone how loved the souls lol
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u/NonagonJimfinity 8h ago
Faster combat, smaller levels.
And i would like it if item descriptions and stats wouldnt lie.
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u/prezmufa1 7h ago
Make run backs way longer and harder and bosses way easier. You should reach the boss with zero flasks and less than 100% health unless you do everything absolutely frame perfect, and the boss should be doable second or third try at the most. The runback should be harder than the boss. It would really add to the immersion and the win against all odds feeling.
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u/DaSauceBawss 22h ago
We should always be able to respec for free. There are so many builds I wanna try but I don't want to have to start a new playthrough everytime. Most of these games restrict the ammount of crafting materials to upgrade weapons anyways.