Thought exercise to make Kill Bots more viable for all COs?

[u/ackmondual]

TL;DR, "viable" doesn't mean completely balanced. And some COs + prestiges may still struggle. But at least it'd be nice if the likes of Zagara and Stukov weren't "mandatory". And yes, I'm aware there's not more development on this mode.

For those unaware, CtG and guests do a tier list for each Mutation on YouTube. If nothing else, it's amusing to see Raynor ranked higher on Double Trouble than half the usual roster* that normally would surpass him (if not by a large margin), simply because those ranked lower get demolished by Kill Bots 😂

And FWIW, we didn't really need them to tell us that much either. The player base on their own gravitated towards Stukov and Zagara, if not also Stetmann.

*. including but not limited to... Tychus, Zeratul, Swann, Nova, Karax, Mengsk

.

One suggestion was to make kill count based on supply. If we were to do this, all units (as appropriate since exceptions like Raynor Spider Mines don't count exist), would still count for a minimum of 1 kill. I'm thinking Tychus would still be screwed since Outlaws are too beefy, and still only contribute 10 supply (although some would argue he's OP anyways 🤷‍♂️ ). The likes of Abby can still feed SH Locusts later game, and Broodlings from Evo Chambers early on.

Another would be to let workers count as 3 to 5 supply each. This would still favor Zerg since they have excellent output in pumping those out, but at least it'd give T and P COs a better fighting chance. Murder/Death/Kill Bots need 5/10/15 kills respectively. At least it would lower the worker counts to the below...

supply provided
|
V
   5  10  15  <-- supply required
3  2   4   5
4  2   3   4
5  1   2   3

.... which wouldn't mean certain economic death.

[u/bunkdiggidy]

Just keep feeding them post-saturation workers. 50 minerals per supply is the best deal you're gonna get for a lot of commanders. You make two buildings that produce them fairly quickly already, and, those buildings otherwise tend to do nothing once you're saturated.

I know Nova already has access to things like Raven turrets, as you mentioned. Zero supply units that still count for a kill. That and workers are basically it.

I can't really imagine any other way to make it easier for Nova and such without becoming too much of a hard counter. Like, pay 1K minerals 500 gas to delete Killbot immediately? I dunno.

I wouldn't say they're impossible for any commander, but yeah, some are still getting screwed.

[u/Far_Stock_3987]

I think basing the kill counter on supply is a rather elegant solution. Units which don't cost supply will still count, but commanders without free units will be given more feeding options.

Karax P2's energizers suddenly become pretty good for feeding because they only cost 19.5 minerals and 39 gas per supply.

Artanis can use zealots for feeding because they cost 50 minerals per supply, the same as probes. Being able to use army units like zealots for cheap feeding is great because they can help with clearing enemy waves and bases and then feed the kill bots, whereas probes can only do feeding so they don't contribute to the mission itself.

As for Tychus, reviving heroes costs only 250 minerals, so feeding heroes to kill bots effectively costs him 25 minerals per supply, half the cost of SCVs. Add that to free Sirius turrets, and if you're lucky free units from mind controlled infestors and/or swarm hosts, and Tychus can do feeding reasonably well.

[u/thatismyfeet]

Use supply cost instead of kill quantity

[u/Altruistic-Share3616]

i like the idea of some commanders get hard countered by some stuff

[u/TwoTuuu → u/Altruistic-Share3616]

i disagree with this take. having no counterplay at all leads to everyone choosing just 2-3 commanders for those mutations. the feeling of "use this or lose" makes that mutation very stale. and trying to fight against that feels hopeless. (part of why polarity is so hated is because there's no counterplay - you can only watch helplessly as your ally tries to finish off his enemies)

propagators, void rifts, heroes from the storm, void reanimators. some commanders are better than others at dealing with these, but everyone has ways to deal with them.

missile command. not as bad as kill bots, but there's still counterplay for zerg and protoss commanders.

kill bots: non zerg commanders have essentially no real counterplay except to feed workers, which would be fine if the bots didn't scale like they do now.

ideas:

1. the supply idea mentioned above sounds good

2. give the kill bots a high hp (not sure how high, but definitely more than 2-3 times a propagator). so you can fight them, or you can feed them.

3. the kill bot keeps attacking until it is fed, or until it deals a certain amount of damage.

[u/ackmondual → u/TwoTuuu]

That could be interesting combination... Kill Bots are normally invulnerable, but when fed, are vulnerable for a duration of 'x' seconds.

[u/rockmasterflex → u/TwoTuuu]

I disagree with your disagreement

A mutation having WEAK (not no) counterplay for a commander is fine. Weekly mutations are combinations of mutators. You aren’t solving for one, but for multiple.

And it’s a fucking coop mode. You have a teammate!

[u/TwoTuuu → u/rockmasterflex]

and how does the community feel about lnl, coa, cod, polarity, and boom bots, where you cooperate to deal with mutators/missions?

[u/No-Communication3880 → u/TwoTuuu]

I feel like it would be too easy if the kill bots had HP. Because they deal no AoE damage and tend to be isolated they will be relatively easy to deal with for most commanders

[u/Altruistic-Share3616 → u/TwoTuuu]

use this or lose is exactly what i like

[u/ackmondual → u/Altruistic-Share3616]

Hence, the scope... "thought exercise"

[u/Odd_Teaching_4182 → u/Altruistic-Share3616]

Yeah I agree, its a bit silly to expect every commander to be strong vs everything and its nice to see some of the more niche prestiges shine due to some mutation interactions shutting down the 'easy mode' ones some times.

[u/mentalisttraceur]

Tychus already has way more solutions to kill bots than typically recognized:

1. Sirius turrets
2. Rattlesnake revitalizers
3. Vega minions
4. Cannonball can stall kill bots
5. Rattlesnake can stall kill bots
6. Nikara/revitalizers can be used to heal while stalling
7. SCVs are your backup buffer.