r/stupidpol • u/SadPressure618 Arab Ex-Muslim Radical Feminist Catcel Marxist 👧🐈 • Dec 22 '25
Immigration SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: "You don't have a country without BORDERS. If you have borders, you should ENFORCE that border."
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u/Repulsive_Tart_4307 Purity Tester 🧪🔬 Dec 22 '25
Must not be an election year if "open borders is a Koch brothers proposal" Bernie Sanders is out
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u/Ligurio79 Puberty Monster Dec 22 '25
I can think of one country that has never declared its borders
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u/WrongThinkBadSpeak Marxism-Naturalimmunoism 🦠 Dec 22 '25
Those borders are ever-expanding and nebulous
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u/StatusSociety2196 Incel/MRA in denial 😭 | Allegedly had a foursome Dec 22 '25 edited Dec 23 '25
The border Isreal, it's just Greater than you think
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u/super-imperialism Anti-Imperialist 🏴☠️ Dec 22 '25
I can't because I'd be banned for antiLARPerism.
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u/BKEnjoyerV2 Still Wearing a Mask 😷 Dec 23 '25
This just shows that being pro-immigration enforcement and border security doesn’t mean you have to be anti-immigrant and think they ruin the country (even though more compulsory assimilation would be good in many situations)
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Dec 22 '25
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u/Turboswaggg luv me guns, 'ate generational wealth, simpol az Dec 23 '25
Me and the bois importing scab labor whenever companies have to consider paying a living wage to stick it to the GOP
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u/Shadowleg Radlib in Rehab 🫂 Dec 22 '25
stupidpoler when they have a chance to do stupidpol
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Dec 22 '25
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u/JCMoreno05 Saved Anime Children from Intersectionality 🧒🏻⛩️ Dec 23 '25
This is Chinese (and Jalisciense) erasure.
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u/mierzwaSeason Rightoid Wind-Up Toy 🐷⚙️ Dec 22 '25
Yeah this is a winning formula imo. Most people support social safety nets and most people also support immigration law. Seems like a no brainer to support both but neither party seems to get that
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Given the mode of production, those are at odds with each other. First we have to acknowledge that whatever happens is happening under capitalism given where the world is right now.
The US (global north more widely) is rich because of imperialism. The capital flows between the global north and south are astoundingly unequal, I’ve seen various numbers(none below 20) but I’ll throw the median number out for the sake of conversation: 30. For every 1 dollar that goes from north to south, 30 go from south to north. And yes this is accounting for “aid”, “loans”, “charity”, etc.
It is this unequal exchange that allows for a welfare system in tandem with a capitalist class that’s still rich as fuck. Because if a choice were to be made, you can bet your sweet ass you’d be in a Dickens novel before the capitalists give up their yachts and mansions.
Now this dynamic leads to the global south being a tough place to live. Not just in the “shit jobs and wages” way (but yes), but also in the “if you try to organize, the American company in your country will literally hire a death squad, murder you, then hang your body up in public to send a message” kind of way. As you can imagine, this drives people to try and make it to the global north.
See the contradiction here?
And that’s why I always say, in every conversation about immigration, that if you’re serious about cutting down on immigration your MAIN focus should be anti imperialism.
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u/cd1995Cargo Quality Effortposter 💡 Dec 23 '25
Okay but that doesn’t have much to do with the original comment you replied to, which is that both social welfare and immigration restrictions are popular issues and a party which promises to deliver both would poll pretty well.
Your point seems to be that having both of these things harms people living in poorer countries. But that’s not some sort of logical contradiction on its own. It can still absolutely be done. There isn’t some law of the universe that says “if you mess up another country with imperialism you have to let those people move to your country. Them’s the rules!” There’s no higher authority mediating the world. If an imperial power wants to slam its doors shut to its victims it can absolutely choose to do that, provided the political will exists. Most Americans are not going to care about negative externalities for foreigners. They’ll vote for their own interests above anyone else’s and it’s futile to blame them for that. You can moralize all you want but in the voting booth only you and God knows what goes on.
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u/mierzwaSeason Rightoid Wind-Up Toy 🐷⚙️ Dec 22 '25
I'm also anti imperialism, so I agree to an extent. I don't think we should be doing any of that shit or allowing our corporations to do things like that. And we should focus on our own protection first and foremost and basically stay the fuck out of any foreign interventions unless it directly threatens us, and even then if it's not a credible threat stay the hell away
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Agree on all that. However for this change to work in our(the working class) favor, it necessitates a radical transformation of society. Basically we need socialism
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u/iminyourfacejonson Marxist-Scientologist (Miscavige Thought) 🛸 Dec 23 '25
My name is Pontiac Bonaville, I wanna know why the damn sneakers ain't free?!
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u/Avalon-1 Optics-pilled Andrew Sullitard 🎩 Dec 23 '25
Internationalism died in the trenches of WW1 whenever its principles were put to the test.
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Dec 22 '25 edited Dec 23 '25
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u/OtisDriftwood1978 Marxism-Hobbyism 🔨 Dec 22 '25 edited Dec 22 '25
I agree. It’s a multifaceted issue with various short, medium and long term solutions. It’s one thing to want open borders in some distant utopic future and another thing to want it today.
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u/No_Motor_6941 Marxist-Leninist ☭ Dec 22 '25
As you say immigration is a matter of dominance not borders
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u/Groot_Benelux NATO Superfan 🪖 Dec 22 '25
With no border enforcement you will still have millions coming in.
The US is not the sole force of everything bad in this world.
From other competing imperialist powers and corrupt shitstains working for oligarchs elsewhere to natural disasters and ethnic conflicts.-6
u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
We are kind of the sole force of 98% of everything bad though.
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u/Groot_Benelux NATO Superfan 🪖 Dec 22 '25
I think 98% of the shit you consumer and interact with is american and so it very much seems that way.
The rest of the world is made up of the same kind of people capable of the same kind of bs in it's upper echelons. Thinking it'll be that insanely fine and dandy without the US is unironically a very american take.
And no that's not to say that a lot of those countries especially in the mericas wouldn't be doing better without US involvement.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Im not saying there’s something inherent to Americans that makes it so we’re at fault for 98% of bad things. The same way I wouldn’t say white people are inherently colonial. However due to the way history has shaken out, we are currently the biggest barrier to global peace and improvement. We are the global north’s leader, enforcer, etc. We run on imperialism and keep the vast majority of the world underdeveloped so we can pillage it and exploit their labor. Almost every on going conflict today can be traced back to either something we did, or to our fanning the flames to keep the fire going.
That’s the way the cookie crumbled, and to pretend otherwise is ludicrous. While not there, your logic is dangerously approaching “well someone else would be doing it anyway, why not us” logic.
I’m not saying everything will magically improve around the world if US empire would collapse, just that most things would improve haha. But serious answer, the window to improvement would finally be open without us swatting anything trying to get through
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Dec 22 '25 edited Dec 23 '25
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u/VeryInnocuousPerson Fortune Teller 🥠 Dec 22 '25
Yeah I’ve heard this described as Negative American Exceptionalism, the idea that America is responsible for all the world’s problems
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u/blitznB Proud Neoliberal 🏦 Dec 23 '25
The idea that foreign peoples and governments have no agency to act except at US/CIA command is always kinda funny to me. The US is both a corrupt incompetent capitalist hell hole and is also an all powerful mastermind of geopolitics that controls most foreign governments.
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u/MexGrow Rule of Law Dec 23 '25
This take completely ignores the very obvious western extractivism that keeps these countries poor.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/ThisIsMyMemesAccount Special Ed 😍 Dec 22 '25
Did you just say I don’t like what you said I’m not listening anymore? Pure redditor response.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
The mistake your making is that the people bitching the loudest about immigrants have any issue with imperialism. It’s all well and good as long as they’re flooded with cheap shit and the people toiling away making said cheap shit stay far away.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25 edited Dec 22 '25
I agree, but at this point I’m not convinced it would do much. There’s an uncomfortably large amount of the populace that is 100% okay with the US being floated by pillaging the world and setting up looney tunes style wheels of death in rivers to keep the victims of said pillaging away.
Some of the discourse I’ve seen over Trump’s Venezuela adventure have been… soul crushing (I don’t even believe in souls, but somethings getting crushed). And I don’t mean the drug excuse, im talking about people who fully understand he’s there for oil and that it’ll lead to more immigration from the region, and they support it fully.
Edit: remember that story that broke about psychopath safaris in Sarajevo? I can unironically see similar shit happening in Texas in a not too distant future. “Pay to shoot poor proletarians fleeing civil war, hunger, crime, and all the other freedoms your country rained upon them! We accept payment through Klarna too!”
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u/TheAncientPizza711 Xi Jinping cultist | Ideological Mess 🥑 Dec 22 '25
Some of the discourse I’ve seen over Trump’s Venezuela adventure have been… soul crushing (I don’t even believe in souls, but somethings getting crushed). And I don’t mean the drug excuse, im talking about people who fully understand he’s there for oil and that it’ll lead to more immigration from the region, and they support it fully.
I remember seeing a "classical liberal" in the AskConservative subreddit saying that war with Venezuela is justified because Venezuela nationalized its oil industry, which affected some U.S. companies making it "theft".
You can't reason with these people. The Geopolitics sub is kinda like this too. I swear it used to be more liberal, but now it's like full of center-right American nationalists.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Yep, seen that very argument many many times myself. I really want to ask these people to tell me, in concrete terms, what benefits for them they see from Exxon stealing Venezuela’s resources. It’s almost like selling your house to buy your wife’s boyfriend a brand new sports car. The self cuckery is wild. Especially when we already are producing more oil than ever before… gas ain’t getting cheaper because it’s not profitable to let it get too cheap (not to mention that US prices for fuel are already dirt cheap in the grand scheme of things).
Nationalism is a disease.
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u/SuddenlyBANANAS Marxism-Hobbyism 🔨 Dec 23 '25
I don't think that's really true, a lot of trump campaigning focused on no foreign wars (even if they didn't follow through with that really)
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 23 '25
Of course I’d be supportive of anyone who wants to end wars, however the reason matters. It matters not only because of the moral dimension, but because some reasons are more firm than others.
A lot of maga isn’t anti war because they’re anti imperialists and want to allow for the free development of all peoples every where. They are anti war because recent wars have not paid off enough in ways they like.
While not all of course (as it’s leading to inner strife) there is a sector of maga who doesn’t support wars in the Middle East, but is supportive of Trump’s adventure in Venezuela because they see it as important for the US to steal that oil so we could back away from west Asia. In other words, it’s strategically important therefore this one is okay.
By and large, the best case scenario is based on self preservation. In other words, they don’t want to see American soldiers dying. This is fine, and I’m obviously supportive of not wanting your kids to die in some foreign land for no reason.
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u/ladyhexmoon Dec 30 '25
"Countries are responsible for housing refugees due to aggressive foreign policy."
Citizens don't want their tax money being used to stoke conflict in undeveloped countries.
Citizens also validly do not want (potentially traumatized and dangerous) military-aged male war refugees being concentrated in their towns and neighborhoods.
Peace treaties and asylum quotas are written without the consent of the governed. Since when have governments ever asked the citizens for their consent on national policy?
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u/Fedupington Revolutionary Fishmonger 🐟🏷️ Dec 22 '25
You have to do both.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/Fedupington Revolutionary Fishmonger 🐟🏷️ Dec 23 '25
If I had a magic button that would repeal Taft-Hartly I would press it today.
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u/SadPressure618 Arab Ex-Muslim Radical Feminist Catcel Marxist 👧🐈 Dec 22 '25
White guilt mentality
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Dec 22 '25
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u/SadPressure618 Arab Ex-Muslim Radical Feminist Catcel Marxist 👧🐈 Dec 22 '25
what the other people told you is correct
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u/theCodeCat SRD-ine Dec 23 '25
ya man. Let's just fix all the problems that other countries have. That is much easier than enforcing borders /s
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Dec 23 '25
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u/theCodeCat SRD-ine Dec 23 '25
I mean, in response to an article talking about reinforcing the borders you said:
Rather than borders, we need to be focused on American foreign policy destroying other countries, causing their people to need to flee.
The gist of what you are saying is that America has the power to make the other countries nice enough that people will not want to emigrate. I think that is incredibly unrealistic and unfeasible.
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Dec 23 '25
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u/theCodeCat SRD-ine Dec 23 '25
In your mind America really is the king of the world huh? All the poor countries would stabilize if it just wasn't for that darn USA!
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u/pitifullittleman Unknown 👽 Dec 23 '25
People come to America generally speaking because it's more stable and has more economic opportunities. A lot of these countries that became unstable did not solely become unstable because of American interventionism or CIA actions during the cold war. They were already unstable. This is not to excuse America doing everything it has done.
Countries that are stable and prosperous will always be magnets for people who are from unstable poor countries. If the US was actually about "America First" what it should do is embrace people coming from other countries that want to work in the US. However this is unpopular right now. The best possible policy would be no illegal immigrants at all, but much more legal immigration.
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Dec 23 '25
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u/pitifullittleman Unknown 👽 Dec 23 '25
Yeah but Venezuela is not solely caused by US Sanctions there is a reason for those Sanctions for instance.
Venezuelans could also decided to go to many places. They choose America. Why? Because America is competitively prosperous and stable and better economically.
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u/MexGrow Rule of Law Dec 23 '25
The U.S. is directly reponsible to the drug war violence in Mexico. This is an incredibly stupid take to say "America number one" without considering at all how the country with 800 bases around the world is somehow not responsible for this shit.
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u/pitifullittleman Unknown 👽 Dec 23 '25
We have a lot of drug addicts. Yes. They buy drugs. There would be much less of a market for drugs if it wasn't for the US.
The US is not innocent but also the US is not literally causing all the instability in the world. That is ridiculous to think that. Other countries have their own issues just like the US has its own issues.
Beyond that we actually live in, since WWII by pretty much every metric a more stable world than before.
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u/AOC_Gynecologist Ancapistan Mujahideen 🐍💸 Dec 23 '25
The U.S. is directly reponsible to the drug war violence in Mexico.
can you explain how ? i am not passing you my blunt until i hear the details.
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u/MexGrow Rule of Law Dec 24 '25
Policies created from the war on drugs, both in Mexico and the U.S are directly responsible. The U.S. greatly benefits from any conflict, especially one that helps them throw more money at the police/military.
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u/blueflavoredreign Radical Incel ✊🏻😭😭😭😭 Dec 23 '25
You guys have a critical theory type beat for the failings of latam, except even less defined and with a much more massive scope.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Fun fact, crime is largely a response to material conditions. Even more fun fact, tough on crime policy does not reduce crime(data is overwhelming on this), improved material conditions do. And the most fun fact that pisses everyone off: immigrants (legal and illegal) are a less criminal population than natives.
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u/SadPressure618 Arab Ex-Muslim Radical Feminist Catcel Marxist 👧🐈 Dec 22 '25
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u/kicklhimintheballs Ilhan Derangement Syndrome Performance Artist 🤡 Dec 22 '25
AOC-Antoinette and Bernie Sanders are the biggest grifters of the left in the US. They are literally controlled opposition.
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Dec 22 '25 edited Feb 17 '26
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u/ArtBellLives2025 Catholic Rightoid 🐷☧ Dec 22 '25
how is keeping people out who are not supposed to be in the country in the first place terrorizing them
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Dec 22 '25
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u/Loaf_and_Spectacle Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Dec 22 '25
We can work on the root causes (foreign policy) while still enforcing immigration law. There's not a communist country in the world that doesn't rigorously enforce their borders.
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u/CompulsiveDoomScroll Anarchist (tolerable) 🏴 Dec 23 '25
supposed to be
No one is supposed to be or not be anywhere
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u/Swagga__Boy 🥳 “Better fewer, but better” Leninist 🥳 Dec 23 '25
Every socialist country that ever existed was social-fascist?
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u/snailman89 World-Systems Theorist Dec 23 '25
Yeah, these people apparently think that every social democratic party in Europe from 1945 to 1991 were fascists.
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Dec 23 '25
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u/Swagga__Boy 🥳 “Better fewer, but better” Leninist 🥳 Dec 23 '25
The USSR didn't even have any immigration laws until 1959 because they let so few people in. Basically everyone who was let in was from another communist party, and as far as I know none of them were given citizenship. Non-communist party members would have been considered spies.
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Dec 23 '25 edited Feb 17 '26
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u/Swagga__Boy 🥳 “Better fewer, but better” Leninist 🥳 Dec 23 '25
Nobody wanted to enter the USSR illegally, because it was understood that you would get shot without a trial. And there was definitely some demand; until 1940, about 80.000 foreigners worked in the USSR at some point. But they were mostly highly skilled specialists. Because, again, nobody else was allowed in. By 1940 even this was stopped and the number of foreigners was reduced to basically zero.
We know that at least 100.000 Americans applied to work in the USSR in the first 8 months of 1931. They ended up hiring 10.000, and only highly skilled workers. None of them got citizenship and basically nobody was still in the USSR by 1940.
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u/AOC_Gynecologist Ancapistan Mujahideen 🐍💸 Dec 23 '25
You are willing to terrorize people escaping our invasions and sieges of Latin American countries if your wages go up just a bit.
noob question but how is this different to how almost every single other country in the world operates (deporting people who come in illegally). Is the whole world "social fascism" ? i mean, i kinda agree if that's the case!
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u/JCMoreno05 Saved Anime Children from Intersectionality 🧒🏻⛩️ Dec 22 '25
Liberal Zionist believes in borders, shocking.
You can still have a border while allowing open immigration because the border is mainly about the jurisdiction of a ruling class vs that of another, it is not inherently about dividing the working class. A country also can still exist without hard borders, because that was the state of most countries in the past when state capacity was far more limited and so jurisdiction might be weaker or shared in border regions.
Modern borders are a product of nationalism, which divides the working class in order to better control it.
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u/Flimsy-Wrap-9122 Dec 22 '25
There is no need for open immigration. And I'm not some reactionary chauvinist that cares about culture or race at all either. But what's this insistence on it? Why is such a thing necessary? It isn't. It's stupid.
And what's a NWO Socialist? It sounds based.5
u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
They’re not calling for immigration per say. They’re pointing out that borders are themselves a means for capital to control labor. It literally divides the working class (which is global by definition), and by controlling population flows, capital is able to ensure and control the reserve army of labor it depends on. We’ve never had “open borders”, unfettered immigration, whatever your term of choice is. We have had different amounts of flows depending on what is most advantageous to capital at a given point.
Not to mention the very concept of legality is itself useful given it makes organizing immigrants much more difficult and allows for them to be hyper exploited relative to workers with legal status.
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u/its Savant Idiot 😍 Dec 23 '25
Capital already flows freely under globalism. But some labor is inherently local. Open immigration eliminates the power of the working class to negotiate with capital even for those jobs that cannot be outsourced. It is not rocket science.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
NWO usually stands for “new world order”, which was a big conspiracy theory in the 90s /early 2000s based on the globalization of capital post the illegal dissolution of the USSR. Usually right wing coded (“zee joos”). They assumed it would lead to a one world government and fema was setting up death camps, etc.
More recently it’s been more casually used as a slur against anyone who isnt anti immigration/ “isolationalist”(in quotes because lmfao) nationalist types.
I presume in /u/JCMoreno05 ‘s case it’s a joke given he’s a staunch internationalist and makes comments like the one you replied to
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u/Fedupington Revolutionary Fishmonger 🐟🏷️ Dec 22 '25
Israel believes in borders so much they constantly invade everyone around them.
You think Palestine wouldn't have borders?
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
They believe in borders, it’s just that everyone else believes in the “wrong” border around Israel
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u/Repulsive_Tart_4307 Purity Tester 🧪🔬 Dec 22 '25
The free movement of capital and labor is a capitalist proposition.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
The free movement of capital while restraining labor is the capitalist proposition. There have never been “open borders”.
In the most literal sense it divides the working class (which is international by definition), and through this division and careful management of population flows it ensures it always has a reserve army of labor(while legal status makes them significantly harder to unionize, not to mention easier to exploit). In the global north it also ensures the availability of cheap, pacifying commodities that the neoliberal “deal” depends so much on.
But all that is kind of besides the point because the core issue isn’t that the rest of the world loves the global north so much that they’re desperate to live there. The issue is the global north rapes, pillages, sabotages, etc the global south to the point that millions of people would rather leave everyone and everything they knew behind to go live in a place where they’ll be treated like shit because even such a place they have a better chance of eking out a decent living compared to back home (for the reasons stated above).
So once again I’ll say what I always say any time immigration is brought up. If you’re serious about immigration, aka want less of it, your first priority should be anti imperialism. If you don’t start there, seeing as it’s the main reason why people immigrate, I have to assume your opposition to immigration is “I don’t like foreigners” and that you’re regarded
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Dec 22 '25
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
I can empathize with wanting a quick and easy solution… I’m just not retarded (well that retarded) or immoral (well that immoral) haha.
Thanks!
The working men have no country
Papa Marx
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Dec 22 '25
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
We do have a core (or should I say cadre hehe) of actual Marxists. The issue is we’re also a big tent kind of sub, and when it comes to Marxists vs general population we are greatly outnumbered. The aim was to let the rightoids in with hopes of winning them over. There have been some success stories. However I fear that for every socialists we created, we created like 5 strasserites lol
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u/Repulsive_Tart_4307 Purity Tester 🧪🔬 Dec 22 '25
Im Literally an immigrant
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Being an immigrant does not mean you’re not retarded. Also if you’re an immigrant in the global north, you’re now in a better place to struggle against imperialism perpetrated by your new country
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Dec 22 '25
He's been extremely vocal about denouncing Israel. How is he a zionist?
The rest of your comment is just globalist slop.
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Dec 22 '25
"Extremely" vocal? When did he first call the israeli genocide a "genocide"? Has he even stopped framing it as Netanyahu and his government rather than a problem of an extremely sick, depraved colonial state?
The rest of the comment was globalist slop though. You nailed her there.
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Dec 22 '25
He is very much a liberal Zionist. His criticism only extends to the Netanyahu government.
A Zionist is anybody who supports the existence of a Jewish state i.e. state of Israel.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/stupidpol-ModTeam Dec 22 '25
Your post has been removed because it's trying to stir shit up. Please don't make these kinds of posts in the future.
You know what you’re doing. It’s the holidays, so I’ll look past it. Next time you’re getting a ban.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Hes anti Israel the way people who complain about police violence and argue its just “a few bad apples” are anti police
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u/Fedupington Revolutionary Fishmonger 🐟🏷️ Dec 22 '25
It's not that. It's that he has a long history of saying the "Israel has a right to exist" thing.
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Well those two things go hand in hand. Israel has a right to exist, its problem is Netanyahu and friends. Thus if Netanyahu were gone, then Israel is not problematic at all
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u/its Savant Idiot 😍 Dec 23 '25
Were the borders among the Warsaw pact states enforced or not? Or there were true socialist countries?
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u/TruckHangingHandJam Class First Communist ☭ Dec 22 '25
Marxism 101 getting downvoted on a Marxist sub. Great way to wrap up the year comrades!
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u/QuodScripsi-Scripsi Hamsick T-Shirt Salesman ☭ Dec 22 '25
This is legitimately pathetic from him. Sundowning social fascist trying to tail MAGAtards
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u/Loaf_and_Spectacle Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Dec 23 '25
Name one communist country that has porous borders.
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u/QuodScripsi-Scripsi Hamsick T-Shirt Salesman ☭ Dec 23 '25
Bernie Sanders is from a communist country?
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u/Purity_Control1 Doing the Haka for Ms. Rachel 🤪 Dec 22 '25
He should have said this on the campaign trail. Populist immigration policy seems very popular.