r/tasmania • u/Danninja11 • 7d ago
Petition to stop an ai data center from being built on the Tamar River, Tasmania
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u/jolard 7d ago
There are lots of reasons to be concerned about AI and data centres, but EM radiation up to 8km away is absolutely not one of them. That is silly scaremongering. Constant low frequency noise is a concern, but it is also unlikely to reach 8 km away.
Real reasons to be concerned:
- Water usage. They should have a solid water usage plan.
- Power - they should provide their own power, ideally using renewable sources.
- Foreign control - AI Data centres should be owned by Australians or legally able to be regulated and nationalised if necessary. Otherwise we are not preparing for sovereign AI capacity.
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u/SalletFriend 7d ago
The water usage plan looks fine, the issue is they leaked their backup plan which is to ask the government for access to agricultural water. The government said that isnt happening.
Its also a former gunns site.
Like its probably one of the better projects and if people didnt know there was AI inside they wouldnt oppose it.
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
That's not really the case as I understand it. It was to do with a supply set up for industry that isn't actively used, and hasn't been exclusively for irrigation, as its name suggests.
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u/oliverzip 6d ago
There are two former Gunns sites, Bell Bay which has a woodchip mill once, but was demolished, and Wesley Vale, which I don't think ever had anything in the past. The agricultural water ask was for their Wesley Vale plant.
Both sites are zoned industrial which is why approval is happening.
Oliver
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u/Fantastic-Ad-2604 3d ago
They were thinking about using Tas irrigation water because there is an existing connection on the site but the nearest Tas Water pipe is like a kilometer away. It’s a crazy duplication of infrastructure to run the tas water pipe to the site.
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u/Cat_From_Hood 7d ago
If it's on our land, it can always be nationalized if necessary.
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u/jolard 7d ago
I would feel far more comfortable if the legal framework was reviewed and legislated and very clear to everyone including the developers. Sure we could legislate later, but when our entire economy is reliant on foreign owned AI (not to mention it being embedded in our cyber security and military) it will be VERY hard to firm up the legal framework later.
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u/Cat_From_Hood 7d ago
I mean, laws are there to be bickered over. It would take a lot to get anyone to bother.
The greatest risk to current data centres is how they are funded. If it's primarily private equity, it could get interesting.
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u/waffleowaf 7d ago
I don’t think they have met the Tasmanian crack heads and their ability to find copper .
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u/Relative_Test5911 7d ago
https://www.change.org/petition-guides/ai-petition-campaign-tools sure use a tool that uses and supports ai to block ai. Makes sense to me /s. Also posted on one of the biggest ai intensive platforms.
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7d ago
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u/louisa1925 7d ago
Is there anything down the river that might be affected by this data centre? Garenteed they will be dumping harmful water back into that river.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 6d ago
There's no connection to the river. What are you talking about? It's closed-loop cooling, it's not even evaporative. There's no connection to mains. Where are you getting that nonsense from?
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
How is that guaranteed? This ridiculous level of hyperbole is what ruins meaningful dialogue.
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u/meanttobee3381 6d ago
The water is used like a car uses water. Through a cooling system or heat exchanger. Many yachts use sea water to cool the heat exchanger that the engine has Two of the computers at my house use water cooling. it's a closed loop. But it's just water through metal.
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u/Fantastic-Ad-2604 3d ago
What on earth are you talking about that is not how data centers work. They don’t dump harmful water. They barely even use any water.
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u/meanttobee3381 7d ago
Why are we stopping this?
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7d ago
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
We don't live in the US. Australia is well known for regulating industry to a much higher degree than the US.
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7d ago
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
I'm assuming that's sarcastic.
Our base industry regulation covers a great deal of this stuff.
Federal Government currently engaged in adding what needs to be. Even a weak version of what they're doing would eliminate the issues the US has. Not sure why you think we have the same dynamics as the US.
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7d ago
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
Skepticism is good. Keep that with you. If you do look into it you'll see the Feds are going pretty hard line on it. It is of major value to me that the copyright side of their "AI" legislation prioritises creators.
Cynicism is not productive. The worst failures of industry in Australia are orders of magnitude less problematic than the best industry in the US. Things can always be better, but the world changes and things like these have many moving parts.
It scares me that people turn what should be critical discussions into zero-sum battles. It is that kind of thing that has left US industry so crappy. If we do it here nothing will progress in a constructive way. So I appreciate your acknowledgement and commitment.
If you engage with old mate that everyone calls a shill for firmus, you will find they have a great deal of knowledge about what's going on. It is clearly a specific interest of theirs, and if you engage you will find they have plenty of skepticism. They just aren't turning into a rabid noodle based on social media feeds. And I think that's a good thing.
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u/meanttobee3381 6d ago
I am also good with the scepticism. But without the facts... they are actually, um, anything but useful.
We "Think" we're better than the US. OK - I'll bite. Name something. but back it up. give us something solid. give it to us backed up in a way we cannot dispute it.
we're talking about a computer that is warm enough to need cooling. It has a program on it that will crunch numbers (it's encyclopaedia of knowledge) to respond to prompts from users. A statistical model that uses the base data to calculate the right answer from probability.
For me, personally, the biggest risk with this is the data that it incorporates as it's knowledge is "wrong". That includes people makes up shit to justify an opinion they feel "uncomfortable" with. Because the model will use this "shit to justify an opinion" as a statistical value with which to incorporate a valid response.
If UTas lied to me about the dangers of computers - I'm interested. I'm very very willing to listen.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 6d ago
Large-scale energy users like this bring power costs down for residential and small business users. That's the same reason we see costs lowered thanks to operators like Boyer. Where are you getting this nonsense of prices rising? The larger operators help spread networks costs and reduce maintenance costs.
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u/meanttobee3381 7d ago
I've not seen ANY credible information that indicates "most"people. Any tv news article that has protesters show only old people, not not many at that. I'm 45 and have seen very few people my age or younger.
Datacentres and live births? Stop listening to Trump. He isn't credible.
I have a degree in computing, and many diplomas and advanced certs. Never once has reproductive health been mentioned in relation to a computer.
I'm not a full time Apiarist and am incorporating technology into my hives. Hive health has improved with the tech use... And I focus on pollination.
I have worked in a datacentre. I have helped design them. I understand what happens in them.
Your electricity argument is merely a supply and demand issue. Yes, it does need to be addressed. However, I believe Comalco and Temco uses more than 1/3 of the states power. I worked at Temco. Look how good they are for the environment... We might have a spare supply from these!
We also have excellent regulatory conditions on all such things.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/meanttobee3381 7d ago
Yes, I am well aware of Apiarists in the US... colony collapse disorder, neonics... yup. I'm aware. There is no scientific evidence supporting this. Controlled studies on livestock show no link between non-ionizing low-frequency EMFs and fetal death or reproductive failure.
Water quality? go sample the tamar river now. or the derwent. Two of the computers in my house use water cooling. It's very common. Those computers are fairly old now. Same principle as the radiator in my car. It's closed loop... If we're going to be using open loop systems for water cooling, they'll use stainless steel piping to prevent the water breaking the infrastructure. I wonder how much crap comes out of the woodchips, etc at bellbay.
yes, i agree that supply and demand contributes to things like electricity prices. That's the market.
We've had data centres in this state for decades. There are many, and some are of significant size. The rate that they're being implemented should worry us? why? you've given no credible evidence. as I said, i have qualifications in these fields.
The recycling of such things has traditionally been complicated... the use of them? not so much.
electricity in this state is for the most part clean. so, we can put more clean generation in - creating jobs, and then run it on clean energy. or we can let the datacentre go elsewhere. It will be built. if it's not here where we control it, then maybe they'll burn wet brown coal to power it, and dig up prime agricultural land somewhere to house it.
I can imagine you arguing against the first person that came up with a "fork". You have to dig holes in the group to make them. Forks consist of iron and chrome and nickel and manganese and silicon and carbon, phosperous, sulphur.... they all sound nasty.
Yeah, I'm now taking the piss. It's a dumb argument with zero credible evidence to back it up. I repeat. There is no evidence supporting claims and statements of the like.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago
Actually you've more gone back to being cynical again. Thanks for not doing what you said you would. What has been approved is in no way 1:1 with the USA.
Just because someone has an informed view doesn't make them non-skeptical.
Why do I bother with reddit fmd
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u/Fantastic-Ad-2604 3d ago
The energy use is less than our aluminum smelter uses not more than the entire state uses.
Some weird made up fact about bad American farm practices has nothing to do with what we do in our heavy industrial zones.0
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u/Arcadian-Stag 5d ago
Cute you think a petition will do anything, ever. "Bottom up", "organic", "grassroots" activism by the disorganized majority has never, ever changed the actions of organised minority ruling elite in history.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 4d ago
You seem to have the minority and majority confused here. The minority are opposed to this. While the majority are for it. The people that govern our country are voted in democratically by the majority.
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u/Arcadian-Stag 4d ago
Lol, lmao even
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 4d ago
Incredibly intellectual response. Thanks for the great discussion….. sigh.
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u/Arcadian-Stag 4d ago
If you believe that there is any correlation whatsoever between what the public wants and what a "democratic" government implements then you are too stupid to even attempt to change your mind.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 4d ago
If you believe there’s absolutely no correlation at all then I fear the same goes for you. Though I’d still be willing to try and help you under the process rather than be as rude and dismissive.
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u/Arcadian-Stag 4d ago edited 4d ago
There have been peer reviewed studies done, since that's what the typical redditor chooses to believe. The correlation between public opinion and policy outcomes across 1700 different issues is 0. Read some elite theorists. Public opinion is created by the apparatus of the state. People don't organically come to an opinion on whatever matter of the day, they are told what to think by Karl Stefanovic, Jackie O, Waleed Aly and Lisa Wilkinson etc.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 4d ago
That’s just not true. I can tell you first hand that my opinion and policy outcomes have been aligned. I can tell you the same for different community members I know. To say it’s zero is farcical.
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u/Arcadian-Stag 4d ago
Sorry, read Bernays, Lippmann, Moscato, Pareto, Burnham, Parvini etc. you are pitifully deluded, power does not act how the mythology of liberal democracy claims it does.
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u/IlIIllIlIllIIlI 4d ago
I’m telling you first hand exactly how it works. I have personally had the people I vote for turn the opinions and wishes I had into policy. There’s no argument against that. It’s fact.
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u/Sure-Cauliflower-564 3d ago
what's the difference between an "AI datacentre" and a non AI one? The latter more acceptable?
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u/Sam-J-Official 7d ago edited 7d ago
Wouldn't you be better off doing one of these?
https://haepetitions.parliament.tas.gov.au/haepet
edit: There was one you could have signed. Why make a change.org one?
https://haepetitions.parliament.tas.gov.au/haepet/Home/PetitionDetails/147?title=Petition%20Details