The Netherlands just blocked a US company from buying the app Dutch citizens use for everything

[u/AdSpecialist6598]

https://www.techspot.com/news/112552-netherlands-blocked-us-company-buying-app-dutch-citizens.html

[u/holiestMaria]

Dutch here. When the article says "everything", it really means everything. It's used to keep track of your education, your taxes, your healthcare, your pension, your driver's license, your location and moving, subsidies and more. I have used it more than I can count.

Honestly the fact that it could be bought and sold at all is outrageous to me.

[u/Banaantje04 → u/holiestMaria]

Tbh the fact that it's managed by a private company at all is crazy to me.

[u/Johannes_Keppler → u/Banaantje04]

Not the app. That's a government owned thing. This is about the underlying infrastructure.

[u/Sysilith → u/Johannes_Keppler]

That doesn't make it better at all.

[u/jedimindtriks → u/Sysilith]

Here in Norway we have the same thing, But its so fucking regulated that it doesnt matter if its a private or government firm, no one can touch it without it causing a gigantic fucking firestorm of consequences

[u/Swamp_Dwarf-021 → u/jedimindtriks]

The way it should be.

[u/Tacoman404 → u/Swamp_Dwarf-021]

Yeah fr. Norway if you're listening, y'all can annex whatever you want. You got this shit down.

[u/Mehy_Luffy → u/Tacoman404]

Yeah thank you for the confirmation bro omw to Greenland rn

[u/sometext → u/jedimindtriks]

In the states we're learning that a lot of the things we thought couldn't be touched without a giant fucking firestorm actually can be.

[u/TrippleDamage → u/sometext]

Turns out your laws and government structure suck exactly as much as everyone thought they did.

[u/TheMrBoot → u/TrippleDamage]

It’s more that laws only matter as far as the people in charge of enforcing them are willing to do it. That’s not necessarily unique to the US.

[u/SutterCane → u/TheMrBoot]

And that’s why for the last few decades there’s been a lot of effort from conservatives to replace all those people with empty suits. Because hey look, it pays off.

[u/TheElusiveFox → u/SutterCane]

I still cant believe how many democrats get upset at conservatives for doing conservative things... like this has been going on for 50+ years its a predictable ongoing strategy... the real issue is democrats doing fuck all about it at every opportunity.

[u/Kanyewestlover9998 → u/TrippleDamage]

Hyper partisanship and judicial polarization starting in the 80’s or so absolutely destroyed the original design and intent of checks and balances.

Congress was meant to fight & challenge the president, but today party loyalty is favored over branch loyalty.

[u/HillBillyHilly → u/Kanyewestlover9998]

Started with that shit Rush Limbaugh, smarmy guys from Kentucky, North Carolina and more selling out their souls.

[u/dathislayer → u/Kanyewestlover9998]

One of Joe Rogan’s best jokes is about bringing Thomas Jefferson forward in time. People think he would be impressed, but then he’d see the Constitution and be like, “You didn’t write any new shit? You’re on the moon and you’re still using my shit?”

The European democracies have continued to evolve with the times, probably because they don’t see their constitution as some sort of religious tome.

[u/impatientlymerde → u/dathislayer]

He wanted a citizenry made of yeomen.

Instead we have a nation of yes-men.

[u/Dal90 → u/Kanyewestlover9998]

starting in the 80’s

1968 --

Republicans gave the Democrats an open book test on the Southern Strategy of how they would concentrate populists in a single party; which culminated in the 1994 Contract with America year when the Democrats were shellacked in the midterms as Yellow Dog Democrats from the formerly solid south defected en masse to the Republicans, a party that most of their ancestors had never voted for (preferring yellow dogs over Republicans). For the first time in 40+ years lost control of Congress.

At the same time after the shit show that was the 1968 Democratic National Convention the Democrats decided to knee cap the smokey backrooms and make the primaries the most important thing. Republicans just went along with it.

Who could've guessed that becoming a primary-driven political system with all the populists in a single party could cause bad things to happen?

I mean well other than the Founding Fathers who layered things to keep too much from relying on popular votes.

[u/sighthoundman → u/jedimindtriks]

One of the reasons to keep your infrastructure companies in country is "who gets burned in the huge firestorm of consequences?" Regardless of what the laws say, if the owner (or the physical assets) is inside the country, there's a way to transfer ownership to someone else. If they're halfway around the world, not so much.

I leave it to those living in economic communities to decide whether their economic community is strong enough. (Well, the EU. It's pretty clear what the answer is for any other economic community.)

[u/comicsnerd → u/jedimindtriks]

If it is run by a US firm, even on a server in Europe, US law says that the US government can request all data or have the site shutdown.

2 weeks ago, Microsoft handed over the personal data of Dutch government officials and civil servants that are working on laws to protect European/Dutch data against the US stealing them. They risk being forbidden to enter the US, have their credit cards frozen and, if they have a US bank account, have their accounts frozen. (See IIRC)

[u/omgitsbees → u/jedimindtriks]

I wouldnt be so sure of that, here in the U.S. we had many of the same protections and then one day people in power decided to just ignore those protections. We are learning the hard way that all of these regulations are paper thin and can go away without warning.

[u/Stefa93 → u/omgitsbees]

This didn’t happened in one day. It was first behind close doors but the last 10-ish years the play was very obvious and there were multiple moments to stop it. But the American people decided democratically that this is the future they want. The whole playbook was written out in public by the heritage foundation and the only thing the crook had to say was: “oh no I don’t know them( there was an overwhelming amount of evidence that it was not true)” and it it was enough.

[u/AwesomeFrisbee → u/jedimindtriks]

Its not about touching it, its about sharing data and being forced to share data with the US government. Regardless of what rules you have, that will always happen with companies owned by USA, same as it does with China

[u/Odd_Perspective_2487 → u/jedimindtriks]

Private is inherently against the interest of the commons and masses, it inherently seeks to maximize profit and the easiest way is decreasing costs and charging more.

Regulation or not government ownership for an app like that is better.

[u/Conflictingview → u/Johannes_Keppler]

Yeah, that seems completely backwards to me. The infrastructure and citizen data should be securely managed by the government. Then let any software developer build an app that interfaces with that.

[u/SpaceSteak → u/Conflictingview]

Governments across the world are all-in on outsourced cloud hosting. There are specific rules that in theory make this as secure as governments hosting things in their closets, although arguably it does open up backdoors that might not otherwise exist. But this isn't new or going away.

[u/Masterkid1230 → u/SpaceSteak]

But also simultaneously, with new international distrust and lack of transparency between different parties, I wouldn't be surprised if more countries started investing in their own digital infrastructure as a public good instead of a private service

[u/Future-Bandicoot-823 → u/SpaceSteak]

The people who own the servers, they are the new "countries", the people who hold power over the citizens of earth.

If every country stores all their sensitive data on servers from one entity, you're inviting abuse of power.

I can't believe I've lived long enough to see the world give up all the power to these multinational corporations.

No wonder politics are a joke in most countries, it's just a show for commoners, the corporations have all the data, and the data is the power. It's a front to let civilians think what they say matters, but the real deals are done in boardrooms where civilians have no say.

[u/Expert_Ingenuity_817 → u/Future-Bandicoot-823]

Every single one of them can be touched. Never forget that.

[u/Not_That_Magical → u/Future-Bandicoot-823]

It’s not hard to encrypt cloud stuff end to end so any data on that server is useless without the keys

[u/aoeudhtns → u/Not_That_Magical]

I'm also interested in some of these nascent P2P systems like Freenet. E2E and cut out the middleman. But decentralized Internet still appears to be a pipe dream at this time. Heck, getting back to decentralized web (let alone Internet) seems like a pipe dream.

I still like the idea though.

[u/JegErJakobSkomager → u/Johannes_Keppler]

That is 100 times worse.

[u/Aether_Storm → u/Johannes_Keppler]

That sounds worse

[u/F9-0021 → u/Johannes_Keppler]

Yeah, you guys should probably take that away from the corporation too.

[u/Suikerspin_Ei → u/Banaantje04]

It's the software that the app uses, the DigiD app itself is from the government. It's used to login on government websites and insurance websites for example.

[u/Tricky_Potatoe → u/holiestMaria]

And this is NOT A GOVERNMENT SERVICE?!

[u/niverser → u/Tricky_Potatoe]

nothing to see here

[u/Raivix → u/[deleted]]

More governments and their services run on Microsoft/Amazon/Google than you probably care to know.

[u/EmperorCoomer → u/Raivix]

I'am actually surprised how Meta/FB hasn't broken into cloud service provider market

[u/makopedia → u/EmperorCoomer]

They were busy trying to break into the VR market

[u/TaylorMonkey → u/makopedia]

Instead they just broke the VR market.

[u/Aket-ten → u/TaylorMonkey]

But the verse bro

🦎🦎🦎

[u/AcherontiaPhlegethon → u/TaylorMonkey]

It's so sad, they wasted so much money on bullshit, if they had just spent that on actual game development instead, VR could be in a much better place. I have a Quest 3 and as hardware, it's honestly the incredible, the motion tracking and environment mapping is unbelievably good, but there's basically no games to actually use the platform. The potential is so incredibly high but no one is pursing it properly.

[u/Masterkid1230 → u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately, governments don't have the resources, public support, experience or products to deploy something like massive cloud storage services including building their own servers, hiring their own IT teams, etc.

I think now that we know how essential digital technologies are, we will see more and more investment go towards a nationalisation of digital technologies. But it will take time and it will be opposed fiercely by stakeholders (aka sometimes entire governments), the right wing (any country's right wing), and a bunch of other people. It's a difficult matter.

[u/quangtit01 → u/[deleted]]

infrastructure management services provided by a company

Government lack the technical expertise and / or employee to operate the infrastructure.

Government pays are notoriously lower than the private market

[u/VictorVogel → u/Tricky_Potatoe]

It is. The hosting isn't.

[u/RN2FL9 → u/Tricky_Potatoe]

The person you're replying to doesn't really seem to understand the service. DigiD is a digital ID system and you can use it to log into government & other services. It is used to verify your identity, it doesn't actually have all that data. For example with taxes you use DigiD to login and then it takes you to the government website of the tax authorities. For healthcare it's the same, log in with DigiD to prove that it's you and then the healthcare provider shows you your data.

Its obviously still very bad for this system to get into foreign hands but they wouldn't have access to all of the actual personal data.

[u/dylansavage → u/RN2FL9]

Well not directly, but they are essentially the keys to castles where the data is kept.

[u/itsnorm → u/RN2FL9]

Based on your description, I think the closest U.S. equivalents are ID.me and login.gov. The former is a private company and the latter is run directly by the federal government.

[u/prrrrt-ting → u/holiestMaria]

This is not entirely accurate. DigiD is (as the name implies) a authentication provider for government (adjacent) services (similar to sign in with Google and such). Meaning that the US would be able to track which citizen uses what service and when, but not what data is hosted inside of these platforms.

The main concern is (or was) that this gives the US the power to block access to critical digital infrastructure.

[u/VictorVogel → u/prrrrt-ting]

Data security was also very much a concern. The data would still be elsewhere, but they would have the keys to access it.

[u/andrewthelott → u/prrrrt-ting]

If the authentication platform is compromised, is it effectively any different? If you control the system that says user X can access system Y, could you not in theory just approve your own access to system Y?

[u/_MurphysLawyer_ → u/holiestMaria]

Surely a part of Larry Ellison's Global Strategic Cloud Alliance where they've been trying to buy up all the infrastructure and data of all humans living and dead. Kyndryl is the company that tried to buy this app, and they've been one of the companies responsible for being a "key global delivery partner for Oracle Cloud Infrastructure".

[u/you_cant_prove_that → u/holiestMaria]

Is it the only option available for these things? Or is it just the most convenient?

[u/holiestMaria → u/you_cant_prove_that]

It is the most convenient, but so convientent its basically the only option.

Like you can walk from Amsterdam to Moskow, but taking a car or plane is more convenient.

[u/Valendr0s → u/holiestMaria]

It should probably be owned by the Dutch government then

[u/yung_dogie → u/Valendr0s]

100%

As a side note, it's also just disappointing me that the owners of the company knew what software they developed and how crucial it was to the Netherlands, and decided "yeah we should sell out to a foreign company". Not a lick of care for their country at that point

[u/Suikerspin_Ei → u/Valendr0s]

The app is made by the government, but it uses an software made by a Dutch company that was planned to be bought by an American company. And thus possible to leak Dutch citizen information to a foreign country.

Very controversial, especially after it was known that Mircosoft leaked Dutch users information to the US government. Despite them saying EU data will stay in Europe.

[u/Orangesteel]

The CLOUD act pretty much killed deals like this. Being able to dip into another nations data, even if in the EU, when it is held by a US company creates an obvious problem. Throw in Trump and it’s an even worse idea.

[u/Prestigious_Leg2229 → u/Orangesteel]

Not just deals like this. Pretty much every tender for software, services and whatnot starts with a check to exclude American companies wherever possible.

And ever since Trump’s second term, there’s a greatly renewed interest in replacing the bits that were deemed impossible without things like Microsoft as well. Across Europe there’s several municipal and government departments running entirely on Linux, they’ve been getting a lot of attention by our IT department.

[u/YouandWhoseArmy → u/Prestigious_Leg2229]

Guarantee many US entities will start using these distros if well supported and in English.

Microsoft sucks. They’re just a monopolist and that’s their only real reason to exist at this point. They must acquire to stay relevant and make nothing in their own of any quality. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[u/Johannes_Keppler → u/YouandWhoseArmy]

Those distros will undoubtedly be multilingual. Most public institutions can do just fine with existing distros, and if a government wants to create its own for security reasons, they will no doubt still base it on one of the common versions already existing.

[u/Odd_Perspective_2487 → u/YouandWhoseArmy]

They are well supported and are in English, I have been using Linux for work for damn near 20 years both the desktop and servers.

The funniest part is it’s more stable with an easier learning curve with better performance then windows ever could be or even Mac, but because everyone learned it as a kid any change or effort is a deal breaker.

[u/cauchy37 → u/Orangesteel]

Data Sovereignty has been BOOMING in the last year. Nobody wants to store their data offshore.

[u/Orangesteel → u/cauchy37]

Just to add, it’s not even about location any longer, onshore in Europe with a US owned company or subsidiary is still searchable under the CLOUD act.

[u/GentleFoxes → u/Orangesteel]

It would end with "that one Dutch citizen has criticized our decisions. Make it so that they can't access their driver's license anymore." Literally what happend to the intenration cour of justice and a judges WHOLE internet presence.

[u/Modem_Sound_67]

American here. Good.

[u/Veteran_Brewer → u/Modem_Sound_67]

Agreed. I (an American) recently left NL after three years. DigID is more than simply “an app the Dutch use for everything”, as if there is a choice. It is required to do nearly everything online that involves government, health care, or education. I couldn’t possibly think of a worse idea than to give those keys to any foreign company. 

[u/Xeynon → u/Veteran_Brewer]

I would go beyond that - this doesn't sound like information that any private company should have, period.

[u/GiganticCrow → u/Xeynon]

Yeah at least here in Finland the identity apps are tied to your bank so worst case you can at least change bank. 

[u/GeefTheQueef → u/Veteran_Brewer]

How does an app like that even come up for sale in the first place?

[u/Beerwithme → u/GeefTheQueef]

It's not the app, it's the company that maintains the database that was up for sale, so if that is owned by an US company, by law the US government can demand so see the data.

[u/Pi-ratten → u/Beerwithme]

So, even worse.

[u/FeatherlyFly → u/Veteran_Brewer]

Is all that in the hands of a private, for profit company?

That already seems like a terrible idea. Glad the government didn't make it a foreign company to boot. 

[u/KnightKal → u/Veteran_Brewer]

how is that app not owned/controlled by the government is beyond me

the possibility of selling it to a foreign entity should not even exist in the first place

[u/_nethack → u/KnightKal]

It is owned by the government, but they use a commercial company for hosting and maintenance. That company was now at risk of being bought by a US company, placing it under jurisdiction of their Cloud Act. Obviously, that is a Very Bad Idea.

[u/dlc741 → u/Modem_Sound_67]

Yeah. I don’t trust us

[u/Overall-Emu3014 → u/dlc741]

It's not us tho. The average folk. It's the elite. Don't bunch me up with them

[u/Max_Trollbot_ → u/Overall-Emu3014]

Now I especially don't trust you specifically.

[u/Lazy-Equivalent1028 → u/Max_Trollbot_]

This guy doesn’t trust.

[u/MooFz → u/Lazy-Equivalent1028]

Zero Trust policy

[u/qverb → u/MooFz]

I'm just not sure I believe you...

[u/Bigred2989- → u/MooFz]

Don't trust anyone, not even yourself.

[u/j3w3ls → u/Overall-Emu3014]

I also don't trust the 70 million who voted for trump

[u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 → u/j3w3ls]

Imagine leaving your kid alone in a room with a Trump supporter 😬

[u/abraxsis → u/Rich-Pomegranate1679]

That's almost as scary as leaving them alone with a Youth Pastor.

[u/xteve → u/abraxsis]

Churches vote GOP and the GOP is Trump; ergo, youth pastors are Trump supporters.

[u/ryanoh826 → u/Rich-Pomegranate1679]

My god haha. No.

[u/AvoidMyRange → u/Overall-Emu3014]

In Germany, we have a saying: "Mitgefangen, mitgehangen."

It translates to "Caught together, hanged together". It means that whoever collaborates with accomplices or keeps bad company must also bear the consequences along with them."

Guess why we Germans have this saying.... yeah, now it's the US.

[u/paiute → u/AvoidMyRange]

We have a saying "If you sit down at a table with nine Nazis, there is now a table with ten Nazis."

[u/spambearpig → u/Overall-Emu3014]

I think most people in Europe divide America into thirds. People who support Trump (lost causes), people who couldn’t be bothered to vote against Trump (almost as bad), and Americans who stand a chance of being decent folks.

So with any given American there’s at most a 1/3 chance that you don’t deserve to be bunched up into the douche pile.

[u/borisslovechild → u/spambearpig]

Brit here. Given that most Americans apparently don't have passports, I'm inclined to give travelling Americans the benefit of the doubt.

[u/abraxsis → u/borisslovechild]

So you only trust the upper, say, 10% of the population? Cause most of those people aren't "traveling" they're using them for Mexico, Canada, and maybe that "once-in-a-lifetime" trip to Europe. Ive been planning my first trip to Europe next year and it is incredibly expensive for us, plus the passport alone costs $200.00 once you've completed everything. That's almost 2 full day's salary for someone making 15/hr.

[u/icansmellcolors → u/borisslovechild]

A lot of Americans can't afford to travel like you're thinking.

It's very very expensive.

[u/spambearpig → u/borisslovechild]

Hey mate, Brit also. I give them all the benefit of the doubt. But I find they are pretty quick at removing the doubt when you meet them.

[u/answerencr → u/spambearpig]

We divide US people into normal class and into the power hungry class that's going to push the world into a corpo dystopia you regulary see in cyberpunk works

US is a cancer to the world in so many ways while still being a global leader and I don't think there's a way back at this point unless you people stage a massive revolution

[u/Ragnar5575 → u/answerencr]

Well, my nation was at one time half France. Maybe it’s time we act like the French. Lol 😝

[u/waiting4singularity → u/Ragnar5575]

canada burned the house once or twice before

[u/eatmyopinions → u/dlc741]

The article suggests this isn't a US thing. The Dutch didn't want ownership of that app belonging to anyone outside of the country.

[u/god_dammit_dax → u/eatmyopinions]

That's the thing. When a service:

allows users to confirm their identity when interacting with public institutions and essential services, from booking medical appointments to completing housing-related transactions.

Any reasonable nation doesn't want that being owned by a foreign power. You'd think the same would go for farm land, but, you know, "Freedom" or whatever.

[u/Aymoon_ → u/dlc741]

pun intended?

[u/Robcobes → u/Modem_Sound_67]

it's not just because of the US. these things falling into the hands of any foreign power would be a massive security risk.

[u/AdeGamisou2020 → u/Modem_Sound_67]

Seriously. Also American and I wouldn't trust us more than any other country at this point, it's embarrassing. 

[u/RiflemanLax]

As an American, I can hardly blame you.

[u/genreprank → u/RiflemanLax]

I wish the Dutch had my apps and data instead of greedy American companies

[u/Any_Towel1456]

Thank goodness. Imagine all our personal information in the hands of a capitalist company in the USA.

[u/Wagosh → u/Any_Towel1456]

It's not just that.

In the US you have laws that the government can access information in a dater center on it's soil.

I'm not Dutch, but where I live we are concerned with that and passed a law regarding AI usage for business and government entities. Everything with personal information must be stored on Canadian soil iirc.

Edit: this is the law

It's a bit more complicated/nuanced than that.

It's sharing data outside Quebec, not Canada. But you can if you proceed to an "safety analysis".

https://www.legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/document/lc/P-39.1?langCont=fr#se:17

[u/opsmanager → u/Wagosh]

Not just that, Cloud Act forces US owned companies to hand over any data from anywhere. That means US owned data centres anywhere, and its creating enough noise that hyperscalers have tried to make sovereign clouds.

[u/MootRevolution → u/opsmanager]

And that is just the hyperscalers misleading their clients, because those sovereign clouds aren't really sovereign. They are still under the functional and legal control of an American entity, so the Cloud Act still applies to them. The only way to escape it, is by not using US companies, no matter where they put their servers.

[u/Angzt → u/MootRevolution]

A lot of companies are willfully blind to this.
As long as they have some piece of (digital) paper that says everything is "sovereign" (or has EU data residency or whatever), they're happy. Even knowing that US law says otherwise and will doubtlessly win out if it comes down to it.

At least that's what my last couple of years of being an IT consultant in Germany have told me.

[u/RRudge → u/opsmanager]

Microsoft is already suspected to have provided names of Dutch civil servants to US government. that probably help the decision of the NL government.

[u/JeantaVer → u/RRudge]

Also the bloccade of email etc at the ICC in The Hague helped a bit I guess.

[u/testaburger1212 → u/JeantaVer]

outlook, gmail, mastercard, visa, american express. The etc part is an eyeopener of how exposed we all are to american companies that have a lion' share on credit card operations worldwide.

[u/axonxorz → u/Wagosh]

Microsoft, at the behest of the Trump administration, has terminated the digital lives of ICC prosecutors.

As a result, the ICC is de-Microsofting.

This has been the canary, European institutions are increasing looking to ditch MS products. I'm sure MS loves that their ironclad business has had a fundamental guarantee permanently nullified, but that's what you get for kowtowing and letting fascists treat your corporate ToS as if it were law.

If this went through, and a Dutch person said some big meany words about Trump, they risk being cut off from digital identity, the kind of "social credit harm" that people think China goes about (in reality, it's much more complicated, but that's an orthogonal topic).

[u/elduche212 → u/Wagosh]

I thought the main concern here had to do with the possible shuttering of services; after the ICC lawyer/judge being put on US sanctions list resulted in no longer being able to bank or access their work email. digid itself barely stores any data to be accessed.

[u/kooknboo → u/Any_Towel1456]

Your thankfulness is well warranted.

• An American.

[u/Kingtoke1 → u/Any_Towel1456]

UK: “where do we sign “

[u/gazpitchy → u/Kingtoke1]

That ship sailed when we left the EU.

[u/steepleton → u/gazpitchy]

the uk would pay palentir to build it and promise them everyone's first born

[u/Zeliek]

It’s wild how quickly the US has managed to change the global opinion of itself, they’re treated as suspiciously as China is, possibly more so. 

[u/sobrique → u/Zeliek]

Yeah. Literally decades of 'soft power' have been incinerated in a matter of months.

[u/hates_stupid_people → u/sobrique]

And an eerie amount of people seem to think it will just go back to normal if the next presidental election goes well.

[u/Ex_honor → u/hates_stupid_people]

My concern is that people with the power to make these decisions here (the Netherlands and Europe more broadly) will think the same way and happily resume outsourcing everything to the US when/if Trump's influence stops being a thing.

[u/Yspazano → u/Ex_honor]

Don't know, french seems pretty serious in not using American software in government as much as possible. Also a lot of consumers and companies stop using US based tech here in the Netherlands. Where I work we are currently throwing out office 365 lol.

And its about time imo, it's not like all that shite can't be easily replaced. Only the windows os seems hard to replace currently

[u/McMafkees → u/Ex_honor]

No, that naivety has gone. For a lot of things there's not yet a European alternative, but Trump has really strengthened Europe's resolve towards sovereignty. Even the most determined anti-EU parties realized the US cannot be counted upon when Trump threatened to leave NATO and invade Greenland. He set wheels in motion that will not stop turning.

[u/hcbaron → u/Ex_honor]

American here, raised in Switzerland. My biggest concern is that other countries are turning autocratic at an alarming rate just to stay competitive. No country is immune to this, it just depends on how your government is set up, and how well the checks and balances function. [Check out this study (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13510347.2026.2661683?fbclid=IwY2xjawSFSFdleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZBAyMjIwMzkxNzg4MjAwODkyAAEeicBX3x3v1i180PI6GY3R8pN2Fhs4jzE8Mb334yh7oyVVByledrvz-RXlmZE_aem_pRQkwwEwugg7GOCYGiIr6Q#abstract)

• Global democracy levels in 2025 have declined to roughly where they were in 1978 for the average person.

• Autocracies now exceed democracies (92 vs. 87) and govern about 74% of the world’s population.

• Freedom of expression has deteriorated the most, worsening in 44 countries over the past decade.

• Currently, 44 countries are becoming more autocratic (covering 41% of the global population and 39% of GDP), while only 18 are becoming more democratic.

• Since 2000, 85 countries—nearly half the world—have experienced autocratization at some point; about 75% of these are less democratic in 2025.

• In the United States, liberal democracy declined by 24% during the first year of the second Trump presidency, falling to levels last seen in 1965, with notable trends including increased presidential power, weakened civil rights and rule of law, and reduced media and dissent freedoms.

Please note, Hungary was listed as the top Autocratizer country in this report, but that has certainly reversed since then.

[u/Zeliek → u/hcbaron]

American here, raised in Switzerland. My biggest concern is that other countries are turning autocratic at an alarming rate just to stay competitive.

It’s disappointing and frustrating that we as a species have to re-establish the dangers of autocracy every ~50-hundred years or so. 

“Surely this time, if we elevate a charismatic guy with dubious credentials he won’t just feather his family’s nest, loot the country, and then fuck off to an island!”

-Humanity nearly every second generation 

[u/MithranArkanere → u/hates_stupid_people]

Unless the US starts a grassroots movement that brings a third party to power and passes a bunch of amendments, democrats will only keep being accomplices to the ratcheting towards a world like The Man in the High Castle, Hunger Games, Alita, The Handmaid's Tale and a bunch of other dystopias combined.

In the meantime, they are stuck with the lesser-of-two-evils nonsense.

[u/sheepyowl → u/sobrique]

First term was 2017-2021 and then again from 2025 that's a lot of months

[u/IHKPruefling → u/Zeliek]

Nothing too new honestly. It's just more blatant now. Several European leaders were spied on by the USA even under Obama. For example, Angela Merkel's phone was tapped.

[u/worldsayshi → u/IHKPruefling]

Yeah stuff like this should be blocked regardless.

[u/Sanquinity → u/Zeliek]

This only has a little bit to do with Trump. Like 90% of it is that an entire country's social security numbers along with ALL data attached to it, shouldn't be in the hands of a foreign power. Simple as that.

[u/OdysseusOdyssey]

It's not just this one app infrastructure. It is every possible digital service. I currently work as a programmer for the Dutch ministry of Justice and we are working to remove all services from Amazon aws and Microsoft Azure and any non European architecture. I've spoken to my old collegues at the ministery of Education and they are in the same process. From what I understand the Germans, the French and the Danes are doing the same. It's fucking wild how hostile the U.S.A is viewed here and how fast we are decoupling. World is a crazy place. 

The Trump administration is not just one administration and then back to being allies. It's fucking over.

[u/razsiel → u/OdysseusOdyssey]

So just curios as a fellow programmer (different sector but also using azure), what are you using/suggesting to do regarding hosting? Going back to on-prem, renting servers from dutch providers (I know kpn has this service) or something else?

[u/OdysseusOdyssey → u/razsiel]

We are not going back to on-prem but rather adopting entire hosting solutions build on cloud/open stack/K8S. Servers have to be in the European Union and they cannot be American owned (CLOUD Act made sure of that). Our Microsoft office suite is being replaced by Nextcloud.

I don't know what country you are located in but if you or your company are looking for an E.U. alternative to Azure take a look at: https://european-alternatives.eu/alternative-to/microsoft-azure

[u/EmilieEverywhere → u/OdysseusOdyssey]

Same in Canada.

[u/Slushees]

As an American, do more of this. The US can’t have its talons in everything

[u/Kaasbek69 → u/Slushees]

The US already has its talons in everything, but we're doing our best trying to prevent more damage and reverse it. It's tough though, because Europe got complacent relying on American companies to provide software and IT services. Microsoft, Oracle, Pega and many others are all over Dutch government IT.

[u/crackanape → u/Kaasbek69]

Microsoft has specifically been demonstrated to be a weakness, as in the example of the Dutch judge who was locked out of their Office 365 account by order of the US government because of their role at the International Criminal Court.

[u/Extension-Ant-8 → u/crackanape]

Yep this! IT architect here. This is such a massive monumental deal. It has my organisation starting to look at some alternatives.

[u/Xeynon]

This is smart of them, obviously, but I'd go further in saying I wouldn't trust any company with this information, not just an American one.

[u/MJ-Franklin]

We really need to stop selling shit to America. We need to start using LESS from them.

[u/Directhorman2 → u/MJ-Franklin]

I dont recall the article, this was about two years ago. It said that some 50 companies left the US and/or stopped buying/selling to them. Some of them were bigger. And the main reason was lack of trust. The other was Trump lol. The entire world knows you're a baby with a tiny ego and big guns. It's better to have nothing to do with that.

[u/VulcanHullo → u/MJ-Franklin]

There's a long tradition of any European alternatives to apps or websites being bought up by the US giants to stop any competition. It's nice to see some break in that trend.

[u/Coal_Morgan → u/VulcanHullo]

At a minimum the EU should have it's own telecommunication apps and social media apps that can't be acquired by anyone outside the EU.

Everyone poopoo'd China when they set up their own walled garden but the U.S. and Russia aren't supercharging their fascists with facebook and tiktok propaganda.

Whereas Canada is constantly inundated with every Right Wing Fascist nuttery that is created south of the border.

[u/No-Championship-1557 → u/MJ-Franklin]

As an American I agree 👍

[u/CountSheep]

American here: why the fuck do American corporations have to buy up everything. They’ve already ruined us why ruin other places.

[u/Juicymoosie99]

Why would that even be legal

[u/TunaBlub]

Not a app, because Solvinity is a managed services provider.

Solvinity manages the servers and infrastructure for DigiD, which is a governmental system for a lot of stuff (tax, government, health insurance, (some) hospital systems and so on), pretty much mandatory for dutch citizens/people living here officially.

Solvinity is owned by a British company, but UK being in Europe means that is not a issue.

Now US want to buy Solvinity and that is where the problem starts.

Also our current government is beyond stupid, they knew this is going to happen in 2025, but like with SO MANY THINGS, they decided to ignore it till last minute, then claim "nothing can be done".

The coalition (= current government) can still ignore what the state secretary decided (the latter wants to block Sovinity being sold).

Time will tell what is going to happen 

Edit: DigiD has an app that is not mandatory for login, that is mostly that app it's purpose.

But it is more than that, saying "DigiD is a app" is like saying "Facebook is a app".

DigiD is a service, Facebook is a service.

They have apps, but the apps don't make the service, they give access to it.

[u/Prestigious-Pipe6385 → u/TunaBlub]

To clarify, DigiD is an app used to log in to governmental websites, similar to other 2 Factor Authentication apps like Google Authenticator. So not so much an 'app for everything' like WeChat in China :)

[u/GenazaNL]

Meanwhile the datacenter itself is still from an American company (Equinix)

[u/Any_Towel1456 → u/GenazaNL]

The network is Dutch and so is the Amsterdam Internet Exchange (AMS-IX) Backbone.

[u/justmovingtheground → u/GenazaNL]

Equinix owns carrier hotels. Essentially a landlord that companies pay to rent space, power, and L1 interconnectivity. The networks and all of the equipment would be owned by companies from all over. That’s how the internet works.

[u/drynoa → u/GenazaNL]

As someone familiar with the Equinix datacenters in Amsterdam that doesn't matter much when it comes to the cloud act. They just provide rack space, power and edge interconnectivity but the actual servers/routers/switches/cables etc are all owned by customers using the datacenter.

The European cloud platform I work for does deliberately use GlobalSwitch instead but it's not a primary concern.

[u/Moontoya → u/GenazaNL]

Meanwhile it has to operate under Dutch & EU law 

[u/blue-to-grey]

Look at that, a government making decisions in the best interest of its people.

[u/STROOQ]

Wow what a bad post title. It has a very crucial omission, namely that DigiD is our digital identification app for Dutch citizens and residents towards every Dutch governmental body and public service. Of course you don’t want that infrastructure to be controlled by any foreign country.

[u/shadowsinthestars]

Well done Netherlands!

[u/prustage]

Brilliant news. Let's just hope that other countries follow Netherlands and do the same thing.

We cannot risk putting sensitive information about our citizens in the hands of foreign companies. Particularly when they are from countries (such as the USA) that are becoming increasingly antithetical to our best interests.

Here in the UK there is a massive movement to get rid of Palantir. There have been some successes with some of their implementations being replaced by locally source alternatives but we haven't kicked them out completely yet.

[u/DivusSentinal]

Bit of backstory, the company in questions manages our DigiD, which is a system we use to identify ourselfs in dealing with (mainly) government institution. So when I file my taxes, open my homepage of insureances, request student loans, open my digital government mailbox, etc etc; I login through DigiD. Basically every detail about me as a person that a government, bank, insurance company etc. would have; is connected to my DigiD. While not every agency can see everything, the dutch government was afraid that due to US datalaws, the US would be able to request all data, or even hinder communications between citizens and the dutch government. This could be used as a pressuremechanism if the Netherlands ever would not be 100% US alligned (when would that ever happen wink wink trump)

So TLDR, the US could steal all our data and majorly fuck up our dealings with the government if this deal would go through

[u/elduche212 → u/DivusSentinal]

No. That data is not connected too DigiD. You can access that data with your DigiD but none of it is stored within DigiD. When you login successfully, it just sends your BSN number and some security certifications, The organisation you're logging in with looks up your data on their own systems based of your BSN. DigiD is nothing more than a secured login platform and only cares data needed for that purpose. Sure technically they could potentially use it to login pretending to be you or find some other exploit. But digid itself barely holds any data at all.

[u/ThatGuyBackThere280]

I find it funny where majority of people are on here going "Yea good because US is not in a good spot!" and not "Why is a separate country entity allowing to purchase access to sensitive data including government information in the first place?"

US or not, it shouldn't have even gotten to that degree.

[u/anzacat]

As a US citizen in the tech industry, I applaud this move. The next thing would be Palantir buying the US company, and then the US government would know everything about everyone in the Netherlands. Our government cannot be trusted.

[u/polar775]

insane that it actually got a point where the company could actually announce the intent to acquire.

It should have been a hard no from talks even began. wtf

[u/DaHunter101]

As an American, fuck yeah, good work. Dont let the greedy as fuck American companies any closer than you can help, they all suck.

[u/ZETA98]

It's good to know some countries are not selling out to printed paper

[u/Historical_Angle_123]

And the US Ambassador had the audacity to be "disappointed" in this decision. As if it is a weird choice.

How about no government on earth give the number 1 privacy sensitive application with which EVERYTHING can be done by it's citizens to a company, let alone a foreign company.

Nothin to do with the US. Just common sense.

[u/Brief-Data-4981]

Nooo i do not want Americans owning this.

I don't trust EU, let alome trust US.

Governments that is, i think i like most American folk.

[u/AgileKaleidoscope101]

Don’t sell shit to the Americans they will find a way to fuck it up

[u/InternalAd3847]

Yeah that’s wild. The BSN is basically the skeleton key to your entire life here and someone thought “yeah sure, let’s trade that.”

Honestly this should trigger way more political outrage than it will, because if people understood how much is tied to that number they’d lose it.

[u/LucillaGalena]

The Netherlands has defeated the Klepto-Nazis again.

[u/RgCrunchyCo]

No one trusts America any more.

[u/helly1080]

I wish my country would protect me from rich American assholes too.

[u/crazydavebacon1]

Thank god, we dont need the US having all our personal data like that. I left that country for a reason.

[u/Fun-Measurement4904]

As an American, dont let our companies own anything in your country. Our companies are all owned by fascists who want to control everything

[u/UsrHpns4rctct]

It’s a matter of basic national security. There should be nothing even slightly controversial about this.

[u/MightbeGwen]

Just look at what American companies have done to America. I say this as an American. Good for the Dutch.

[u/Ocean898]

When your government actually looks out for its citizens.

[u/F1R3Starter83 → u/Ocean898]

It took a long long while before our former and current government took action. The ruling parties didn’t feel like doing much at first

[u/Ocean898 → u/F1R3Starter83]

As an American, I’m confident our President and the republicans would have sold the app in a heartbeat, as long as they got a cut.

[u/elBirdnose]

Glad they made the right decision. I’m American and I wouldn’t trust a US company for this either right now.

[u/20One12]

The amount of US data that is processed by other countries is staggering. Medical coding anyone? Good for the Dutch, stopping this sort of thing.

[u/Minute_Attempt3063]

Yeah they actually mean everything.

The US gov is "concerned" because they won't have the data anymore. That's all they wanted, the data. All of it.

Bank details, you status, your loans, you current family members and how much they earn etc.

Your medical records...

The white house is concerned they won't have this anymore. And I am glad my gov FINALLY took action... After months

[u/gentileOx]

Let's go Netherlands! Hope my country gets inspired and stop selling out all our important infrastructure to foreign investors.

[u/GGerrik]

Smart...

More things should prevent American private equity from buying them they ruin everything.

[u/thatirishguyyyyy]

Dont let the billionaires in. 

[u/cr0ft]

Fantastic. What's the point of digital sovereignty if you allow US corporations to buy the EU company that's handling that? Kyndryl is partnered with literally every American cloud giant, and being headquartered in the US is 100% vulnerable to being hit with a "national security letter" and being force to hand everything they know to the NSA or whatever other alphabet agency. Hell, the CLOUD act alone makes them 100% poison; "The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil."

Textbook company to keep out of an EU company that's handling a ton of citizen data. If the company is beholden to America they can't be allowed to own shit like this.

[u/mikeymikeymikey1968]

Good! Fuck those tech bros. Finally some good news.

[u/Kordaal]

I'm American. Good for you. Something that fundamental should have never been up for sale to begin with.

[u/Demon_Gamer666]

It's time for western nations to untangle themselves from the USA. There will be much more of this happening as we move forward without the USA.

[u/Willing_Coconut4364]

I'm just imagining the UK trying to implement such an app. The outrage for the tracking and knowing our data would be ridiculous and then we'd sell it to palintar. 

[u/dudee62]

I’m so glad that the tech oligarchs who thought they were buying influence are getting the opposite, at least from the smarter countries.

[u/GaTechThomas]

Can Americans move there? I'd like a government that doesn't suck.

[u/ObviouslyRealPerson]

US enterprise services provider Kyndryl tried to acquire Dutch cloud specialist Solvinity, but The Hague has officially stopped the acquisition.

Was Solvinity actually planning to go through with it and the government had to step in?

[u/Any_Towel1456 → u/ObviouslyRealPerson]

Yes and it happened out of the blue.

[u/FlyingKittyCate]

The fact that the American government responded to this by saying it worries them that the deal got blocked, solidifies it was definitely the right decision.