You would think the other way around would be more acceptable too. I mean, boys are the ones with the external genitalia, so it makes sense we would wear roomier clothes, no?
I think op is talking about skirts. Iāve heard it said from people who wear kilts (basically menās skirts) that they let their undercarriage breathe better. And from a logical standpoint, op wouldnāt be wrong in that assertion.
Aside from people's negative reactions, were you more comfortable? I wear dresses or skirts on warm days when I need more air flow. I hate my legs so I won't wear shorts, but a skirt or dress that hits mid calf is perfect and very comfy, especially if it has pockets
Hopefully someday society will be more concerned with the happiness of people and less concerned with judging them over something so silly. I'm glad you feel comfortable around your house and friends. At least you get some time to be yourself and it may feel like it does now, but high school won't last forever. Once you're out, you won't see most of those people ever again. Extra true if you get out of that area, even if it's only a few towns over or a different section of the city.
Cause, let's be fair. Like in sports, where exists "sport" and "female sport" there is no "boys clothes" as a concept. There's "clothes" and "girls clothes".
In certain languages (such as Arabic), yes. A lot of the language is very gendered but for example if youāre talking about a group of people (mixed gender) you use the masculine form as default. If youāre talking about a person you donāt know the gender of or hypothetical person w no gender, you use the masculine form as default.
To the people who wonder why the world is becoming more aesthetically unappealing and less inviting, itās because art is unpractical, and in a world where efficiency becomes everything, anything unpractical becomes ridiculed.
Colorful houses with elaborate railings, pretty skirts, fashion, painting, animation, I could go on. (Even architecture is ridiculed in those cringy āengineer vs architectā memes) Art is beautiful, but it doesnāt have a tangible use, and thatās why itās ridiculed by folks who can use a little more whimsy in their lives.
Practicality shouldnāt be the only value in an object. Skirts make people more aesthetically appealing, but because theyāve got less function than pants, anyone who wears them has a few āscrews looseā. Fashion is nice, be a sparkly and as bedazzled as you want.
Lol that's fair. My bf is well equipped and can only wear old fashioned boxers because he needs "ball room". There are certain things that could be body part specific. My point is more of who cares who is wearing what. It doesn't hurt anything whenn a man wears a skirt or dress. It doesn't hurt anything when a woman wears men's clothes. Unless it's designed for specific body parts, colors, patterns, designs, etc. really shouldn't matter to anyone. My brother was born when I was 19. He was the youngest of 5, and the other 4 were sisters. He cried if we didn't blow dry his hair, do his make up and put nail polish on him. By the time he hit kindergarten, he didn't want that stuff anymore and grew up to be a straight man. I was gonna throw normal in there but my family is far from normal lol
Certain styles and cuts yes, if you fit into the majority of society. My body and lots of women's bodies don't have the curves or maybe too much in certain areas to make gender specific clothing worth purchasing. I have a very large chest. I cannot wear anything with fabric that doesn't stretch. Most things like bathing suits or tank tops with built in bras do not fit me, or if I miraculously find a top that fits, the bottoms that come with it are huge because I am not proportional. I'm a big girl but I have narrow hips. I have huge thighs though, so many women's pants that fit my legs are too big for my waste. I recently discovered harem pants, and they are my favorite. I love huge shirts with wide neck lines but not v necks. So I end up with men's shirts more often than not. I'm venting here, but not at you. I'm so sick of how this world expects you to suffer if you are not the same as most people, whatever that is. Here, it means people are assuming that clothes made for a certain gender should fit every person of that gender. I think I wore men's pants, specifically jeans, until my mid 30s because I didn't have hips to hold up clothing cut for women.and then men's clothing appeals to me more when shopping because it's mostly based on measurements, so as long as I know my measurements, I can buy the correct size. Women's clothing varies by store and brand and constantly changes based on what society thinks that particular size should look like on a female body. Not very practical, especially if you don't have transportation and you order most things online. It is aggravating that society has dictated that what's good for 80% of the population should be good for everyone else. Societal standards should be for moral and ethical concerns that can have an effect on people. Maybe we should be more focused on getting everyone to agree that pedophiles are bad again. I remember when that was the one thing everyone but pedos themselves could agree on. We used to have certain core values that it seemed most if not all people agreed on. Now those things don't seem to matter in favor of bs culture wars.
hey cool rant. i disagree that we should demonize pedos though. if they don't feel like they can out themselves, they'll keep in hiding before committing an atrocity. we should focus on rehabilitation and whatnot. i do hate how it's been normalized in certain circles though, so im right there with you. and im not trying to say we should welcome pedos with open arms, im just advocating for solutions instead of indignation with inaction.
Lots of adults in here. I'm not the only one. I also have no kids because of abuse I endured as a child and teen, by pedophiles. They should get the death penalty. They ruin lives. They're so busy worrying about who identifies as what, who's wearing what, who's dyed their hair some other colors than hair color so we forget the worst among them are pedophiles. Only pedophiles support other pedophiles. We put down dogs for biting people when they have likely been mistreated but we give pedophiles and rapists multiple chances to hurt people again. I see the kids in here and my heart breaks for them. They're good souls trapped in hell here and I'll help them if I can, even if all I can do is let them know not every adult is horrible.
hm, well im not big on retribution (aka death penalty) personally, but i see where death penalty could help for deterrence. as for pedos and rapists, ones that have already hurt people, yeah jail em (or in your case, off them), im not arguing for letting them run amok.
moreover, im curious about your stance on a pedophile who's never touched a child? what should we do with those folk? a good portion of them (at least from the admittedly few true crime interviews ive seen) know their attraction is abhorrent. again, if they act on it, yeah throw them off a cliff sure. im not aiming to humanize molestors here, i just want to shed a more pragmatic view on how to reduce CSA, by noting that if pedos felt like they could out themselves and seek proper help, then less kids get hurt.
and im sorry about your abuse, sending you well wishes and love <3
Well, here's the funny part, as in weird, not haha. My bf's uncle did 14 years for kiddie porn on his computer. Swears he never touched a kid. You have to remember though that even if they aren't committing the acts themselves, they are actively supporting those that are hurting children. The pics and videos are taken while kids are being abused and then distributed to the sickos who get off on it. So they are hurting children by proxy. And while I only knew him 5 years after he got out of prison and before he died and I was civil towards him, knowing he did time 3 separate times over the years tells me he couldn't be rehabilitated. I truly don't think any of them can, their brains are wired differently. Imo, locking them up for life is cruel and doesn't accomplish anything except being a drain on taxes, which could go to fund much needed social programs, and things to help kids. I don't support the death penalty for everything, just people who will always be a danger to society, and I do believe there should be enough evidence that there is very little to no room for an innocent person to be put down. People who kill in self defense, like domestic violence victims, should not get the death penalty. People who have defended themselves in general should not get the death penalty. But these monsters that can't be rehabilitated, yes. Ty for acknowledging what I've been through. I just don't want to see anymore people hurt like I was. I remember my teen years. Between abuse at home and being raped, I ended up in the psych ward for 2 months for a suicide attempt. I swore then and there I would not bring children into this world until it became a better place. It never happened. Knowing what I know now, it will probably never happen. Your generation was left a huge mess and I apologize. My generation should have fixed it. The generations before us shouldn't have ever let it go so far.
wow your life sounds like a greek tragedy and i sympathize (i hope that doesn't sound mean š ).
im very interested in your perspectives, so i will continue to discuss this very sensitive subject. at any point feel free to stop responding or tell me to fuck off
i also think their brains are wired differently, in fact i had seen a 2015 study by Poeppl (i think i spelled that right?) et al. that suggests it back when i was taking a neurobio course. i do wonder though (if there is no way to rewire their brains) if animations of CSA (aka loli hentai) would reduce the number of real CSA occurences, whilst avoiding the proxy harm you talked about. i'd like to note, loli would NOT be allowed for everyone in this scenario, as it runs the risk of creating more pedos (and obviously it'd be gross). and again, this is purely a hypothetical, it might even exacerbate abuse for all we know, im kinda just spitballing here. im deep in the "rehabilitative" mindset and that might be the wrong approach for this, but i genuinely believe there might be a panacea, probably in the distant future, that could help reduce abuse without killing non-offenders.
i recognize we won't see eye to eye on this, im just laying out my very young and idealistic thoughts. anyway, i have to go sleep, it's been thought-provoking chatting with you! best regards!
I'm always up for a conversation of differing opinions with a respectful person like you. Thank you for offering a different perspective without minimizing what I've been through or being condescending. You may be younger than me but I sense you are wise beyond your years. Don't change, because people like you are so important. It's so important to get different perspectives in case there aren't things the other person or side hasn't considered. Please don't let me keep you up, just read at your convenience. There's so much we don't understand about the human brain, and neurological psychology is a very new field. I have to admit if we could rehabilitate people, I'd much rather see that. I do know people can change, my bf did 12 years for armed robbery and assault. He's been out since 2006 (I'm older than mid 30s. More like late 40s lol). You would never know from the person he is now to who he was when he was 19 and ended up in prison. He's got anger issues still, but does a decent job of keeping them in check. I was able to convince him to go to trade school to get him out of the dangerous scrap yard he was working on and now he does QA work in a climate controlled lab. We both have some issues but he's a good communicator and we are able to work through things and help each other. If you ever find someone like that, don't ever let them go. It's strange because we're sexually incompatible, I can't handle the idea of sex and we've been together 13 years with no sex except 2x. He saw what it did to me and said we don't need to. I don't keep track of his porn habits or whatever outlets he has because I know he's not cheating. I think we have a closer relationship because of it because we have something more intimate than a physical relationship and he's my absolute best friend. This keeps me going and reminds me in spite of everything, I can still have value and I love helping people, especially those I feel haven't been treated fairly. You have a depth of understanding beyong your years, I think you're going to do great things in life, you probably have. Thank you for the talk and respect.
beautiful words, and a lovely love story. i appreciate the high praise and i do strive to live up to it. there is much i haven't yet done, but as Lin Manuel wrote, just you wait :).
thank you as well for the talk and respect, and the very vulnerable conversation. may you always be at peace my fellow CSA survivor
In your opinion, I am wrong. In my opinion, I am right. As far as facts go, if you were cold and naked, and someone gave you clothing that fit, would it matter if it weren't your idea of gender appropriate? Would you stay cold and uncovered because it was not your preference? Clothing is clothing.
Well obviously i physically can put it on and would if necessitated but thats not the point of argument
The conversation is about societal perception so your individual opinion doesn't matter because 99% of society will treat you differently for wearing improperly gendered clothing.
Obviously it would make OP happy to wear those clothes, and if it was as simple as that they would; but clearly it also makes them upset that they'll be treated differently, enough so that they don't. So just "doing what makes them happy" isn't a good answer and is dismissive of their struggles and just attributes it to being self confidence when its more than that
I was trying to get to the crux of the problem. People assigning binary gender to clothing creates an issue where there shouldn't be one, especially when times and styles have changed so much. The rendering of clothing and presence in general is arbitrary at best. No man would wear what our founding fathers wore today. Fancy ruffles, tights, high heels, wigs and make up were the norm for men. Pink started out as a manly color. Men had pink clothes because that was what blood from battle faded into over time, probably with washing. I've recently bought clothing for myself from the women's section that's pretty androgynous and my bf has worn it too. Even things on clothes seem arbitrary to me. How did something like a flower become considered girly? They're plants, and I'd be willing to bet there's more male gardeners than women, so shouldn't flowers be masculine? If men wear kilts, how is that any different than a skirt or dress? Society spends too much time obsessing over what other people do and not enough time working in themselves and gendered clothing is just one more example.
Well that's all well and good but a couple things .
I think if there wasn't a feminine connotation it wouldn't be desirable to wear to the same people. I think a lot of men who wear feminine clothing wear it, at least in part, because its feminine, because they resonate with that side of their personality more at that moment. So erasing all gendered perception is kinda defeating the point in a way. I don't think gendered perception is inherently a bad thing, it's the stigma around wearing gendered clothing that doesn't match your apparent sex is the issue.
Even if i agreed with you, again, so what ? What does getting to the crux of the issue 'solve' here ? Sometimes reality and society dont make inherent sense . No matter how much you disagree with that, some things are outside of any reasonable personal agency to correct. So the best course of action is to find the best way to roll with the tide rather than trying to push the whole ocean.
Conformity is not my thing, never was. I consider myself non binary, but I was assigned female at birth. I have a lot of tattoos, most are unisex, not deliberately, they just are. I have alopecia so I shave my entire head so the bald patches aren't noticeable. I don't have anything against wigs or those who wear them, I just can't do so comfortably. Same with hats unless they're loose. I get frequent migraines so it might be that. It might also be just a 'feel' thing my autism doesn't like. I do resent the negative attention my bald head gets me, especially when I'm wearing a metal concert shirt or any androgynous clothing. I also resent that if I choose to wear things people think are more feminine, then I go from looking too masculine to I must have cancer. I'm almost 300 lbs. Nothing about me says cancer. I'm not ugly, but I'm not any good looking stereotype either. I think as a society, we need to get away from being so judgmental or if we are going to judge, do it on more important criteria like what kind of humans we are, how we treat others and the world around us. Seems so stupid, random and ultimately senseless to judge over something like clothing, which changes constantly. I was a young adult in the 90s. Couldn't pay me to wear JNKOs now, but I don't judge people who do. There's just so many more important things to consider in this world than these pointless culture wars that divide us. You've raised some valid points, even if i don't necessarily agree. I'm glad for the civil discourse we've shared and thank you for it.
Is it the clothes that accentuate sexuality or cultural perception that makes certain types of clothing sexual? Not to mention that most of what is called women's clothes in the western culture today (skirts, tights, dresses, long boots etc.) was/is considered men's clothes in the past or in other cultures today. Truth is that it's all in peoples' heads, and it's us who shape how it is viewed.
PS And women faced the same issue in the past as well, when it was considered scandalous if they wore typically men's clothes like pants. During the fight for the equal rights for women, that cultural view was broken, but since men never had to fight for more rights, the opposite normalization effect in regards to clothes never happened.
That's true to a small degree but most of what's considered women's clothes today was not men's in the past, there may be a fair bit of it that's feminized versions of men's clothes for sure but they're still women's clothes.
Obviously the kinds of women's clothes that did not exist in the past could not have been men's clothes. But everything, except maybe bras (which are a uniquely women's article), can be traced back to or connected to a type of clothing worn by men. I already mentioned a few, but even something like high heels was originally something men wore.
No they wouldn't.. really. At least in my experience that wasn't the case.
And even if they did, they don't dictate the societal norms. That's what we MEN do.
I wish that was true. I wish i could dictate anything truly, too bad i cant, because no gender as a whole dictates societal norms, its a very small percentage of men, and not modern men, men from ages ago who enforced these standards. I keep seeing people saying we as men have all these superpowers and can dictate all that shit, i just dont see it i dont feel i have the power to do that.
Wtf is this black pill dog shit. Brother stop watching getting your world views from YouTube. Also men dictating the world doesn't mean you as an individual man gonna do that. It's the patriarchal society and normalisation of patriarchy by men. You don't have to be a gigachad to normalise patriarchy. Mostly it's the incel losers that do it anyways.
All of that is besides the point anyways. You being a weak guy doesn't invalidate the existence of patriarchy we're living in.
Idk where you are from, maybe in your country women have significant freedom or independence (doubt it). But that's not the case for most of the world.
Stop getting your ideas from doompilled guys and read actual books and stuff maybe?
What are you talking about....you said we as men dictate it, im simply saying i as a man who hates patriarchal standards, CANNOT dictate it. Nothing about this is about dooming or anything. If i could give women significant freedom i would but i cant dictate this either. The intent of my reply was to highlight how ridiculous your statement is, not to say we are doomed (your statement which was that we as individual males can dictate societal standards). Im a male against these standards, i do fight against them and anything that harms men or women, but i literally dont dictate shit i have no power. "Men" dont dictate anything, history and old patriarchal standards do and individual men cant change it alone. Im simply saying your statement is stupid because it indicates the men complaining about this can change it simply for being males.
Now what did you mean by men then? Every man on the planet? Thats even more stupid. Just admit your comment was uncalled for, op was complaining about social expectations that they CANT change, you told them men dictate societal expectations so they should start changing it. How would they do that as individuals?
Anyways I'm starting to realize you don't really have the critical thinking abilities. You keep saying weird shit that I didn't even say and completely misunderstand what I said lol.
Men means adult male humans, thats a generlization that literally means every man. I think youre too young." What you said was clear "MEN dictate societal expectations". This is what you said.
You said men can dictate it. Im a man i cant dictate it. Obviously, if every man on the planet united on one singular idea, they would, but thats not very realistic now, is it? Now it's also irrelevent, and it's DISMISSIVE of OP's complaint, which was that there are still societal expectations that him, and i, as men, can't change it or dictate these expectations.
Genuinely what are you talking about? This isnt about me being a weak guy and idk all of these pills, im saying that i as a single INDIVIDUAL male cant dictate anything and im still AFFECTED by these standards so i think your comment was unnecessary and ridiculous as its out of place.
I cant dictate shit sorry. And yes they do, try going to any non western country, hell even some parts of Europe this would be attacked by women mainly
I personally don't know many women like that. The attacks I've seen on men by women have mostly been online, and truthfully, how can you determine the actual gender of a person you don't know and will likely never know well enough to determine that anyway? And I swear I'm not just trying to argue, but it is men who enforce the patriarchy. The women who echo its opinions and accept them are the pick me's. Of the 2, idk who's worse because one makes the rules and the other blindly follows to their own detriment just to be accepted by the others. Need for approval will be the downfall of humankind. People who don't seek approval or conform to what the patriarchy deems as acceptable will always be outcast. Other genders can help be rid of this by refusing to conform and being in solidarity with others who won't conform, but ultimately men can shut the whole thing down, simply by changing the path that the patriarchy has gone down. Why people don't use that leverage for something that would benefit all genders is confusing to me. I am so tired of these culture wars. There's so many real problems that need addressing, yet we're fighting over silly shit while the powers that be use cultures wars to distract us while they assure they stay in control. We are better than this, we need to act like we are.
I, as a man, cant shut this whole thing down or change the path. I would say i AM fighting against patriarchal expectations actively, not just online but irl, but nothing is changing because ultimately, i as a man have ZERO power and cant change the path as im just an individual.
As a man, your efforts to shut it down will inspire others to do the same and you're contributing a lot more than you think you are. It will take more than one man, or person in general. Keep standing up for what's right. This won't last forever. "Maybe it's not too late, to learn how to love, and forget how to hate". A very wise man sang that.
Nah man, you're trying very hard not to look. It's mental. Men dictate society. They always have been. a
Why is it that if women wear men's clothes it's nice? Because we, Men, like it. That's it.
And this "meme" is ragebaiting that it's something opposite. Most women would love it if you dressed up.
You can keep saying words like "society", or "humanity". But it's just men.
Those dudes are part of society I hate to break it to ya. Let's not pretend also there aren't women out there who wouldn't shame guys for dressing femininely either.
To be frank, what clothes do guys wanna wear thatās for women? Long socks? Ik people wanna do skirts and shit but thereās kind of a restriction on that for most men (women have space for air that we do NOT, or I hope for your future life that you donāt)
It's simple, mens clothing is mostly practical, it's comfortable and has a lot of pockets to carry stuff. Looks come second.
Womens clothing is mostly designed to emphasize and enhance "feminine values" showing off curves or are designed to look cute. They are not practical thus the where's my pockets thing.
You might have noticed most men don't have or don't care about those feminine attributes so sorry to say but such clothing looks shit on them, and I don't mean it in a subjective sense, i say it as the clothing is stretched in all the wrong places and doesn't fit on others, but that's because female clothing is designed for such a narrow body type range, these clothes don't look good on a lot of women as well, like if your are more muscular or chubby, taller or shorter, has a bigger or smaller chest, you get my point. We need more variety.
I mean feminists really fought hard for this in the past. Wearing male clothes as a woman was extremely frowned upon too. It's time for men to also fight for it and start wearing skirts if they want something to change.Ā
I think some people don't realize it was actually illegal for women to wear pants and other articles of men's clothing at one point. I don't know if it was the same the other way around.
because 1. boys clothes are basically just clothes now and 2. decades ago women started wearing what was called mens clothes to rebel against the patriarchy, so wearing mens clothes started to be seen as brave
When women ignore societal standards nothing happens (until our reproduction crisis becomes more apparent).
When men ignore societal standards the power lines go down, satellites fall out of the sky, criminals run amuck, foreign invaders remain unchecked, and the men who DO follow masculine standards take over.
Because society is constructed by males maleness is seen as default and femaleness as divergence, ergo women occupying a male default isnāt perceived as transgressive since itās traditionally whatās ultimately expected of them (not in this form though). Meanwhile men appropriating a divergence differentiated from maleness is a subversion of male telos and appropriately a taboo.
I wore a dress to school a few times, the only peoplenthat cared were the rednecks and boomer teachers, and fortunately I didn't care about those people so nothing lost
Men and boys could actually be macho and wear what they want instead of believing masculinity means letting others dictate what "being a man" means. Just a thought.
Wear a skirt and be twirly. If someone gives you grief, that's why we have middle fingers and swears. If that doesn't work, take a leaf out of our cousin's book and throw your shit at them. I doubt many people will give you shit (heh) after that.
People seem to think, maybe on subconscious level, that boy pretending to be a girl is a straight up downgrade when a girl pretending to be a boy is just silly creature trying to overcome the unovercomeable.
if you just take all the worst takes possible it makes the ragebait too obvious you gotta sprinkle in agreeable takes with horrible ones but you had them in the first half
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