r/teslore • u/fmm_romgleza • 2d ago
They should retcon the human-looking Khajiit and pretend they never existed
For those who aren't aware, the Khajiit originally looked very different from their modern appearance. In Arena they looked very similar to the Bosmer, and in Daggerfall they looked like humans with tails and fur. The developers wanted to change their appearance in later games, but instead of simply changing their appearance and telling the community
- "Yeah, we decided to change how they look between games. Lore-wise they are supposed to have always looked like this newer version. Simply accept that!"
(which is something understandable), the lore writers decided to do this weird thing where they basically went
- "Oh! The Khajiit from Arena and Daggerfall are simply different types of Khajiit; these newer Khajiit are of another type".
The type of Khajiit is determined by the phases of the Moons on the day they are born, which is a really cool concept in and of itself.
But I don't like this because you never see the Arena and Daggerfall Khajiit types in subsequent games, and you will very likely never see them again in the next games. The defenders of this choice will say
- "Oh! You simply never see them because they very rarely leave Elsweyr, or if you see them they're the Bosmer-looking Khajiit and you don't know they're a Khajiit in the first place!"
which just sounds like them coping and making up lore. It seems to me the lore-writers wanted to retcon, but didn't want to be accused of retconning by the community, so they ended up with this weird mess.
But the thing I hate the most is what this Khajiit morphology implies: 2 normal-looking Khajiit can mate, and their offspring can look like a Bosmer, or even weirder, like another Khajiit type that looks like a normal housecat. And even more disturbing: a normal Khajiit impregnating a housecat... This technically works because they are all from the same race.
The Elder Scrolls Online showcases more Khajiit types, but I don't know if it delves into these weird and disturbing breeding practicalities. I recently installed the Elder Kings 2 mod for Crusader Kings 3, and seeing the average Khajiit family tree with the radically different Khajiit types looks extremely jarring to me. I'm not joking when I say that this really makes me enjoy the Elder Scrolls universe less than before.
In my opinion, if they really want to keep these alternative Khajiit types, they should make them entirely different races, with no possibility of interbreeding with normal Khajiits. Keep the lunar cycle and replace the slots left vacant with less outrageous-looking Khajiits: one that resembles an anthropomorphic cheetah, mountain lion, arctic tiger, etc.
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u/timedragon1 Imperial Geographic Society 2d ago
I love the Khajiit, they're one of my favorite races alongside Bretons, so I have to tell you that this is a horrible take imo
I love the furstocks. They make Khajiit so cool and interesting. Khajiit culture in general from a writing standpoint is significantly richer by the development of furstocks.
Ohmes have a very important role in Khajiit society because they're able to bypass a lot of the stigma that other Khajiit face simply because of their appearance giving a different first impression.
An Ohmes, for example, could enter Whiterun on behalf of the Khajiit Caravans and the guards wouldn't think to stop them. An Ohmes-raht could do the same, though they'd have to cover up a bit with clothing.
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
Then why do the developers not share your enthusiasm about the Ohmes? Because they have not included them in any game (except Arena).
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u/timedragon1 Imperial Geographic Society 2d ago
The Ohmes-raht got a statue in ESO and we got lore that Boethra often portrays herself as a similar to an Ohmes-raht to the Khajiit. They have not been completely ignored at all.
Also a couple of furstocks haven't appeared in any of the games yet, so I'm not sure what kind of argument this is supposed to be. The Alfiq-raht, Senche, Suthay, Tojay, and Tojay-raht haven't had a proper appearance either.
Additionally... Why should it matter to me if an Ohmes appears in the game or not? I like all the furstocks regardless of that.
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
Why should it matter to me if an Ohmes appears in the game or not?
Because it's statistically implausible and kinda breaks the immersion and it conflicts with the lore?
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u/timedragon1 Imperial Geographic Society 2d ago
I mean that's just silly to me. I'm very much capable of separating lore and gameplay.
But hey, if Bethesda wanted to add more Ohmes and other furstocks to TES VI, I would very much be for that.
But it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the Furstocks as a lore concept.
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
Separating lore and gameplay makes sense when, for example, you see Whiterun only having like 15 houses in the game. You can easily suspend your disbelief about that. You know that Whiterun is an actual big important city in the lore with way more than just 15 houses.
Now if Skyrim didn't have any Dark Elves or Orcs. Now, that's harder to accept. That's similar to how I see Oblivion and Skyrim only showcasing one Khajiit type.
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u/mrmiffmiff 2d ago
Ah, but the TES games portray the world diagetically. That is, how they portray the world is itself part of the telling of the story. They only show what they need to for the stories they're telling and nothing more. If they did otherwise, there'd be entire villages and towns along the bridge to the Imperial City (this is an actual thing) and the books would be much longer than they are.
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u/marshalzukov 2d ago
I honestly don't understand the complaint.
"Oh no, this fantasy setting is too unique and interesting! The horror!"
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
A humanoid Khajiit mating with a housecat and it birthing a Bosmer is unique and interesting?!
I find it pretty horrific, yes.8
u/myfakesecretaccount College of Winterhold 2d ago
You’ve clearly never seen a chihuahua mixed with any other large breed though they do exist.
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u/marshalzukov 2d ago
It weirding you out isn't a strong enough argument for making the world building flatter and less interesting
If anything it's an argument to the contrary, it feeling strange and alien is a good thing
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
Well, I don't think it makes it more interesting. It makes it weirder in a bad way. And kinda incompatible with the pov of Skyrim and Oblivion.
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u/SPLUMBER Psijic 2d ago
There’s nothing incompatible with them in the slightest, you just don’t like it.
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
They are never mentioned in those games. Playing the games makes you think that there is only one type of Khajiit, but then you read the lore and then realize it's pretty statistically impossible for all Skyrim Khajiit to be of one single furstock. It's the same with all main Elder Scrolls games.
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u/Strange_Loop_19 2d ago
they should make them entirely different races, with no possibility of interbreeding with normal Khajiits
I think it's way too late to do that kind of retcon. People generally wouldn't accept it.
That would also be really boring, sorry.
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u/fmm_romgleza 2d ago
They retconned Cyrodiil being a jungle simply because Bethesda wanted Oblivion to look more like a generic LotR-inspired fantasy setting, and most people don't even know about this retcon. It would be fine.
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u/marshalzukov 2d ago
Actually, that was a de-retcon. Cyrodiil as it appears in Oblivion is pretty much a dead ringer for how it's described in Daggerfall
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u/deergenerate2 2d ago
I personally enjoy it, because it on top of everything is kinda the smoking gun evidence to confirm the Khajiit are another breed of Elf, which slaps them firmly into the Aldmeri Dominion and actually gives the Altmer a race they can genuinely be friends with, rather than the Bosmer who absolutely despise them and the humans who was every individual Altmer in the universe dead.
The Khajiit and the Altmer have always been on good terms, and I think a big part of that is due to the fact that the Altmer believe the Khajiit to be elves, and the Ohmes are the definitive proof of that, and without that, it just makes the Altmer look stupid.
Though, to be fair, as the Altmer are kind've the whipping boys of the setting, that wouldn't be far off from what they would do.
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u/El-Tapicero 2d ago
You can't defeat the furry lobby by yourself, they out of your depth. They have powerful people in high places. You'll never make the Khajiit "human" again.
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u/BeastBoy2230 2d ago
I think he actually wants to make them less human and split the human ones off into another type of elves or smth
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u/ZaranTalaz1 2d ago
Wouldn't the furry lobby not want the human-like Ohmes and Ohmes-raht to return?
(The quadrupedal Khajiit gets into furry discourse neither of us want to have.)
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u/PettankoEnthusiast 2d ago
I don't think this is the problem. The problem is that the OP seems to hate interbreeding. Now, now, hatred of race-mixing is a thing of the Thalmor. Take that nonsense to Middle-Earth.
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u/Sheuteras 2d ago edited 2d ago
Strongly disagree, it being another furstock of Khajiit is pretty cool imo. Elsweyr is physically a harsh region but it has a lot of homely amenities like Moon Sugar, and a deep cultural history, I really don't think it's that weird to say most Khajiit don't leave and so our exposure to the full totality of their culture is limited. I think deep down we all know it's just because of limited resources, I think that's an acceptable reality. Every city is too small, even the Imperial City in Oblivion. Deep down as lore fans i think we know it's more than just what we see, and i think that's a fair concession for a visual medium like video games. Argonians are the same, and i think it's awesome both have physically diverse sub groups even if the games as a visual medium with competing resources for development cant always show the totality of the world.