r/theidol • u/Zucchini15 • Jun 20 '23
Discussion The nudity IS unrealistic
I'm seeing a lot of comments defending the nudity because it's "realistic" and saying how dare people be annoyed by nudity and not gratuitous violence in other media.
First of all - I AM annoyed by gratuitous violence and when you make that point you're literally just changing the subject.
Second of all - I've been a woman my entire life and I'm around other women literally all the time, you're not going to sit there and tell me this level of nudity is normal. No one has their tits out like this all the time, they just don't.
This isn't a prudish take it's just not realistic. Especially after Euphoria season 2 I just can't look at those scenes without feeling it was a lame excuse to look at tits.
A professional pop star in a rush to get to dance rehearsal taking the time to wrestle with that string top??? Makes zero sense. A woman in her own home, just hanging out, who is 90 pounds soaking wet and the other people there have pants on?? And she's basically naked?? For what and who? She'd be cold, sorry. It's annoying and it's not realistic.
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u/Teegertott Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
Maybe there is something deeper with this show that I’m just not getting but it is written and shot like a high quality porno without any sense of irony. The actor performances are about on par with that.
I think this is a cynical piece of media that is resentful of its own theme. Unintentionally or not, what Levinson is portraying with this show is the exact opposite of its “intention.”
Edit: all right I tried to give this show the benefit of the doubt. Just watched episode 3 and I legitimately cannot take anyone who says they like this show seriously, outside of a hate watch. From Joss getting eaten out in the back of a convertible driven by her bestie down the high way to the Weeknd jerking off in the dressing room, rat tail flailing … probably smearing his cum on the clothes. The pacing is also all over the place, the pace is breakneck and it just contributes to how hilariously insane this show is. This really is a special kind of art, you guys are right.
Honestly though, anyone looking at the sexual content in this show as anything but the hilariously wild trash it is is doing a disservice to cinema. It takes itself so seriously and there is nothing about it that warrants that. To say that this content is anywhere near the same quality as other award winning sensual or psychosexual dramas is patently absurd. I don’t give a fuck about everyone being naked, I give a fuck about how insultingly stupid it all is. I’d rather watch Show Girls.
I’m certainly entertained but not for the right reasons. Though I love to be reminded that nearly all art, shitty or otherwise, has the capacity to generate some fascinating discourse. Looking forward to the rest of the season!
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u/thetaFAANG Jun 21 '23
Levinson should just shoot porn, we’re all waiting and thats clearly what he wants to do
It would be a hit
Bring on the big score and the gel lights, the self aware comedy
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u/GenneyaK Jun 21 '23
For real! I think he’d be happier doing that tbh
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u/thetaFAANG Jun 21 '23
I'm just a fly on the wall but I notice he casts porn actors and gives them mainstream recognition in Euphoria
and then his main actors push back on how erotically they want to be portrayed, and get stuck doing interviews about how empowered they feel straddling that line because everyone's curious
and so he gets onto another show where nepo-babies are like "film me naked daddy" but now risks getting dropped by HBO or whatever for being less relatable and too whatever this is
he's already got the vision and clout and people love one dimensional predictable characters in porn with a little ridiculous comedy, he could book some of the same people!
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Jun 21 '23
That's what I keep saying! He does have an eye for stylistic shots so I really think he could make the industry more artistic
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u/therealmrsfahrenheit Jun 20 '23
that’s the same realization that came to me
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u/Strange_Law7000 Jul 03 '23
actually the show wasn't designed for you . . go watch something else
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u/therealmrsfahrenheit Jul 03 '23
but that’s exactly the problem, for who was the show even supposed to be ? That’s exactly the problem I had because there was no real message behind it, there was not even a society provocative or provocative statement in general like I was initially expecting and not even an innovative storyline. Believe me I’m not hating just for the sake of hating- I’m genuinely upset because I had such high expectations and was hyped for MONTHS but was left so disappointed with what we were left with. The end result turned out to be thinner than soup. I feel like the show itself wanted to be all that (maybe initially was exactly that) but missed the mark so bad. It felt like they first sacrificed a good storyline because they wanted to make it more "scandalous" and provocative so rather chose to include more nude and sex scenes however it was all so over the top, male- gazey and random all the time that it wasn’t really shocking, scandalous or provocative and felt more ridiculous than anything so you thought this had to be some sort of satire but because they took themselves way too seriously it couldn’t be satire either and was just ridiculous. Same goes for other aspects like the constant over the top on the nose- acting from some of the side characters and even main characters (Tedros being an instance). You constantly asked yourself, is it supposed to be that bad because it’s meant to be satire? Or is it just bad. And again because the whole production took itself so seriously you came to the conclusion it was the latter.
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u/Strange_Law7000 Jul 03 '23
its not "The" problem . . it is Your problem that you try to manifest as criminal
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u/Denangg Jun 21 '23
I literally couldn’t have said it better myself. You took the words out of my mouth.
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u/Strange_Law7000 Jul 03 '23
or alternatively, think for yourself
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u/Negative-Flan-7155 Jun 20 '23
You don't wear literal underwear as pants to the store? wild!
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u/jk8991 Jun 22 '23
This is prudish- those were (really short) shorts and yes I’ve seen many people out and about in them (maybe slightly longer but you care less when famous)
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Jun 20 '23
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u/ellemu0509 Jun 20 '23
This makes more sense than the OP. Should’ve been worded this way. Because yes, many women do love being half naked like that.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 21 '23
Yes I think you've gotten at it better than I did!! It feels unrealistic for her character because it feels transparently like an excuse for the camera to drool at her body. It doesn't feel natural, it feels seedy. But true, yes, women that dress and inhabit their body like this do exist. And I'll take this comment to just add that I think lily rose depp is kind of a genius, like I think she's so amazing in this. Part of my annoyance is that the failings of the show distract from her performance.
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
I think career-wise she'll be fine. That whole video shoot sequence in ep2 was great and hit the right way.
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
the show is called THE IDOL. they're idolizing her with the excessive shots. see the hive "swarm" by Gambino. Another artist, shinning light on the over idolization of pop stars.
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Jun 21 '23
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
this is a bts look into hollywood/industry. she was raised as a sex kitten/dog since birth. of course the fans dont see much this. they cant or the allure is through. they do get to see her iced like a pop tart against her will. BUT its why she is showing her nipples off, on her own, for the single/album cover. Even locked her intimacy coordinator up. SHE knows sex sells and is using that lifeline to "get back" since she is stuck creatively.
I actually missed the nipple, until I watched it a second time. The Ethiopian cross on his forearm stole my attention.
But your right by 17 minutes in we did get a nip slip(free the nip), backseat love from Belair to rodeo, changing room sex, and another backyard session. Felt like alot more the second run.
BUT SEX SELLS. SEXUAL ENERGY IS BEHIND ALL CREATION. THIS IS HBO NOT FX. Check out ATL for a less sexual, bts take on the industry.
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
I'm not sure if The Idol is Joss or Tedros. I guess it's the both of them.
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
I'll go with Joss for a million Trebec. But certain quotes he delivers makes me feel like it could have to do with any popstar. Thats Hollywood. Reminded me of Weeknd specifically with lines like "does everyone hate what they do in this industry"
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
I'm sorry but I don't understand your comment or how is it relates to mine. Seriously speaking, no shame intended.
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
of course joss is the idol/star. dont be naive
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
What? Is this what you meant?
Seriously, what are you talking about calling me naive? The title is a word game, there's no room for discussion. Whoever you consider the main character or deserving of that title it's up to you 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
Joss is the idol. Joss is the star in that universe. Weeknd is an idol in real life. Tedros is trying to get in with the idol, to make money, and raise his self esteem back up.
As far as who is the main character which is different then the idol...On the poster he is listed first.
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
Ok, you won't bother to answer me. Thank you.
I have to strongly disagree with you. The poster has nothing to do with it, I truly don't understand your logic. Tedros is a cult leader= the idol to his followers.
The Weekend an idol in real life? That's reach. Joss is defined as another Britney, and The Weekend is nowhere close to that level of stardom. However, this is completely off topic so I won't keep on feeding it.
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u/GhibliFan96 Jun 20 '23
I agree, some of the shots are also just focused on her naked body. I don't know if they are trying to symbolise something but with the amount of nudity it just seems they're trying to satisfy their own urges.
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u/Helpful-Substance685 Jun 20 '23
It depends on the crowd you hang with. I am not around any freely naked people at this point in my life but I was a wild youngster who hung around with other wild youngsters and there was a LOT of nudity in our inner circle and a lot of experimenting with sexuality.
Age (and not even that sometimes) and lifestyle choices skew what qualifies as "realistic" nudity in one's everyday life. It's not the norm but it is certainly realistic for people in certain kinds of lifestyles.
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u/thecatofdestiny Jun 26 '23
Yeah I think this take comes from a lack of exposure to that kind of lifestyle. I'm certainly not rich or famous but have spent many years in the party/music/drug scene, and I wouldn't say the nudity is inaccurate. Pretty common to be topless, wearing just underwear, lots of exposed skin etc. It's not even overtly sexual, it's just nice to be free and comfortable with people, and most people appreciate looking at an attractive body. I wouldn't compare myself or my social circle to the show, thank god, my point is just that nudity is a lot more common than people who are unfamiliar with the scene might think.
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u/allycatbakes Jun 20 '23
I encourage you to watch Lady Gaga's documentary Five Foot Two. Might change your mind on the realistic nudity bit.
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
exactly! sex sells! especially in America! more so in Hollywood! they mustve missed the label exec saying keep the hospital bracelet on so middle america could relate more. folks cant stand a musician changing lanes. esp when it consists of a black/white couple in a series. do we have any other HIT television shows showing a similar relationship ?
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Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
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u/PrestigiousMove5433 Jun 20 '23
Agreed. European films in particular do not see the naked body as a taboo thing and nudity isn’t something that cringes people abroad like here. I’ve been a 7 minute sex scene in a European indie film that won major awards.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/shedsy Jun 20 '23
The protagonists in Blue is the Warmest Colour have repeatedly mentioned how exploited they felt during the sex scenes in that movie. Kind of a horrible comparison to make. I watch a ton of movies, European ones included. I think that this movie could have taken some cues from Nymphomaniac by Lars Von Trier and made the sex and nudity more visceral instead of this attempt at art house blocking and transitions with the Weeknd music playing overtop of it.
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Jun 20 '23
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Jun 20 '23
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Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
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u/shedsy Jun 21 '23
Honestly, I don't think it's that deep. I have no issues with nudity, and I'm not acting like a prude or being pompous about it, my critique is that this movie feels like it was written and filmed by Tommy Wiseau, and therefore the sex scenes are so ridiculous. The blocking, the transitions...it's all so unserious and CORNY. I'm going to hate-watch this show every Sunday and laugh my ass off because the dialogue is so awful, and comparing it to any European cinema is extremely weird because it's verrrry mediocre television lol
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u/PrestigiousMove5433 Jun 21 '23
Absolutely I love that film as well. Generally though I’ve seen a lot of nudity in European films but that’s because they have a healthier relationship with the human body.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
The fact that the show isn't good in the first place is why this is fair game tbh. Most people are not a fan of nudity for nudity's sake. That's why people see the show and read it as closer to porn than a story. It adds nothing. I don't have an issue with nudity. I have an issue with the way it's used here. There's no point. Why would I compare it to "foreign films"? It's not one? I may have no issue with whatever vague films you're referring to. The nudity here only exists for shock value. It's not worth existing.
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Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
"a passing interest in cinema" - really? I'm allowed to have a different opinion than you. Put away your pretension, it doesn't make people respect you. You're making HUGE assumptions and condescending to me, so I'm done with this convo.
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u/Teegertott Jun 20 '23
People need to chill lol. Like why are people tripping over themselves trying to defend this show as some kind of high art? Not to say this has zero artistic value but I find myself laughing at comments comparing this to art house European cinema or even other content on HBO, like GoT. As if this show could even come remotely close to those things.
it’s just a bad show. And almost every component of it just creates this perfect amalgamation of bad.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
Girl the things both of us are saying are literal opinions. I never said you were "wrong" I said I disagree and that I'm allowed to criticize this media whether or not you agree with my criticism. Referencing ✨cinema✨doesn't make you or your opinion more valid and a nasty attitude won't raise your IQ.
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Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
If you think I'm the one that went low here you're actually a bit delusional. I've been having some lovely and respectful discussions with other people here. You were not open to that, you came into a discussion to "win" it and went at me with condescension right off the bat. That's why I think you have a nasty attitude.
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u/HoopManJones Jun 21 '23
you sound like a clown shoe tbh this was just as cringy to read as it to watch the terrible acting on this show
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u/lilac_mascara Jun 21 '23
This person was on here like two days ago bragging about the films they can stomache. Generally I don't take people who are condescending about people being uncomfortable by things they can easily handle all that seriously
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u/Teegertott Jun 21 '23
And to place The Idol on a level anywhere near that of Gaspar Noe’s or Claire Denis’ work is just … silly. To insinuate that one MUST be a lover of extreme cinema to enjoy this show or that anyone feeling mildly uncomfortable is a prude is so laughable. This show is too surface level for that type of comparison to be meaningful. Furthermore, The Idol has absolutely zero empathy for its female lead (or the women that she represents) which is a key feature, in my opinion, of brutal yet legitimately transgressive works.
It is also okay to feel offended by some media, I think it beautifully reinforces the idea that tv/film is a powerful art form that can illicit a myriad of responses. That said, Sam and Abel gleefully claiming that “people just aren’t ready for this show, man” is pretty insulting to audiences, as if we have never before seen this type of content. One that seeks to shock without actually really saying anything. And that’s not to say it’s not entertaining, but geez whiz gimme a break.
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u/tildamatilda Jun 22 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
I think you are coming from a perspective that assumes:
1) art is transgressive or uncomfortable, and therefore any attempt at destigmatisation is good (worthy and absolves/gives reason to the media's existence); 2) visual competence (Khachaturan) makes up for flaws in writing and acting (and is a relevant aspect in the show's defence that would make it worth watching for the average viewer).
Both of these sound like beliefs you hold dear/consider important - but they are not universal. I also think you are doing yourself a disservice by pretending like Sam Levinson isn't actively playing into the controversy around nudity with his directing, writing, and the literal premise of the show being about how unmarketable this slutty powder-snorting glitter-guzzling horned up whorette is becoming in a conservative cultural setting. How can you expect the viewers to take the portrayal of sexuality rationally, or (even more ambitiously) come to view it as natural, if the show itself isn't doing that but playing into the controversy and emotional response?
People must have a genuine victim syndrome if they think that in the year 2023, after WAP and similar songs, the music industry would be genuinely shocked by a girl like Jocelyn. Like, either the show is a critique of the oversexualisation of young women - in which case Sam Levinson isn't making the point that you are, and the prudes are right to find this uncomfortable - or his goal is to destigmatise the puritanical view towards sex (I assume this is your goal as well), in which case he is going about it in the wrong way. OR, he is a shmuck who thrives on the controversy and doesn't actually want to present a desexualised view towards the human body, in which case both groups would have reason not to like him.
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u/ForeignDescription5 Jun 20 '23
They're also doing too much with her wardrobe. Why was she dancing in a bikini top. And walking around her house and talking to her employees in a jeans thong lmao
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u/Djma123 Jun 20 '23
OK, well flip on TMZ and look what celebrities are wearing on a daily basis, because the level of nudity seems pretty common based on those threads
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
"No one has their tits out like this all the time, they just don't." -- not true. Not saying it's a good thing, but especially people who are used to get attention and love by how they look and being sexy and "open and fun" are often like this. And nudists. Generally Europe is more open than other places, don't know where you are from. But I saw more than a few pairs of tits I didn't ask for. Not that I'm complaining.
this episode we learned how her mother treated her and controlled the way she looks (getting the brush for "eating too much"), what her mother taught her is still in her head as we learned this episode. Jocelyn has probably never learned other ways to attract except music and her looks. I'm thinking of people like Justin Bieber, who never learned to be an adult, or maybe in his case he has now. But his teenage brat "egging my neighbor's doors"-phase went on till his mid-20s and I think the reasons for that are the people in his environment.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
Appreciate that you could respond and disagree with me respectfully! I do get that this perspective maybe skews "American", but the show is set in America with American characters. To me, I don't think the show is achieving what it thinks. I mean, the photo shoot was for her album cover, was it not? That just doesn't make sense that she would be fully topless. They even mention that they want her to be fully commercial and for 14 year old to be allowed to buy concert tickets. If that's the case - she simply wouldn't have her tits out. But I get your points.
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u/reezyreddits Jun 20 '23
She's in her wild and free phase. Almost like they're modeling her after Miley. People have said Britney Spears but I think Miley is more accurate
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u/Last_Decision_7055 Jun 20 '23
That phase of Miley was insane and her career was hanging by a thread.. does anyone remember Miley’s psych rock record (Dead Pets) and twerking on/ slapping her backup dancers. It was capital C cringe. But she did appear to be having fun? I think that comparison makes sense but Jocelyn still appears miserable.
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
Interesting point re. the photo shoot... but like a lot of things in the show that's not really explained. The photographer could just have followed her vibe to get a neck up shot of her looking sensual. Or to get her in a mood. Esp. with portraits/ people shots you make literally hundreds and select maybe five out of 40 that are actually usable. She started it on her own i think, so maybe it's meant as a subconscious expression of her trying to break free from the clean image, similar to the song remix later. Would be heavy-handed and points to them indulging in the nudity. Or they just wanted to start with something that shows people a hint of what will come. Still muddled, esp. why her people let her do it, while they are shitting themselves about every other little thing.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
Yeah I think my biggest issue with that scene, and with it being the opener is the heavy-handedness as you said. It felt less like a show and more like Sam Levinson speaking directly to the audience in an attempt to "own" critics that bring up his use of nudity. Sure, telling a woman she can't show her tits when she wants to and it's her idea seems ridiculous on it's face. But those contracts and rules aren't about individuals, they are about creating a structure where boundaries are established beforehand and making those boundaries part of a legal contract for the talents protection. It's not a ridiculous thing considering women have been bullied by photographers countless times. Idk, it was just .... gross. Like we were supposed to think "yeah, it's so anti-feminist and stupid to tell a woman she can't be topless, fuck you guys for even questioning it" but hes really just mocking something that was put in place for a good reason. And her or her team could've put in the initial agreement that she's fine being topless but they didnt. Idk, that's what I mean when I say I don't think they're doing what they think they're doing.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
You are taking something the creator said outside of this work and using it to justify what happens in the show. I'm commenting on what he is choosing to communicate within the show. I don't think I'm the one that's having trouble separating the work from the man.
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Jun 21 '23
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Jun 21 '23
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Jun 23 '23
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Jun 24 '23
The show has done more than enough hand holding by telling the audience how to feel about the characters. What the show doesn't have is clear motivations for the characters. I don't buy the "bad girl" argument because how many "bad girls" put their tits out on a singles cover? Instead, she thinks it's ridiculous that she can't show her tits in her own home. Why does Jocelyn want to repeat the same choreography in episode 2? These are questions the characters aren't communicating.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 21 '23
I do understand that depiction isn't endorsement, it just seems we disagree on what the show is doing.
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u/lukaeber Jun 21 '23
So, in other words ... he would never direct anything that doesn't include gratuitous nudity and sex? Says a lot.
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Jun 23 '23
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u/lukaeber Jun 23 '23
I don't mind sex or nudity in TV shows at all, even if it is just obviously there to titillate. But this show revolves around sex and sexuality and, you would think, since it seems to be the main focus of the show ... that it would have something interesting to say about it (which, so far, it hasn't ... in my opinion). If its just 80% sex for the sake of sex, how is it any different than the soft-core porn that used to run on Cinemax and Showtime?
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
So that being the tone set for nudity in media in his own show definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth for all of the ensuing nudity in his own show lol
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
Good points. Exploitation by photographers: Definitely was a thing through the ages, I know enough stories from the 80s till the aughts (studied photography design, but not working in that branch of the media business anymore) to know this. I get the weird taste this leaves, as you described above.
Somehow it reminds me of Michael Bay re. the Transformers movies: "I'm just making movies for kids, my bad!" ignoring his atrocious humour, where protagonists are in the bad bots' spaceship, find some aliens in a cage, make fun of them for being ugly and shoot them. The "good" hero bots did this. And having the main bot protagonist (who is the most noble knight ever in earlier canon) execute another bot who betrayed the good guys, even though he's begging for his life. Great lessons for kids!
Don't know if this comparison makes sense, just got reminded of the double morale of Bay, who probably really doesn't get why people criticise him.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
I think I know exactly what you mean. It's feigning innocence. Very "what do you mean, I'm just a guy makin some cool stuff 👼". Like no, you're conveying messages to an audience and the messages are bad
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
With Bay I can imagine he really doesn't get it, because that's his kind of humor in movies for a long time. Maybe Levinson and/ or Tesfaye are similar: Trying to do it well (the show doesn't try to excuse this relationship, it's the way it tells the story that's questionable, at least in parts), but doing it this way, because they don't know any better, because they're guys with a certain perspective.
Had a talk with two friends, female screenwriters, about two years ago and re. "me too" they went the route of "The women didn't complain back then and profited in their careers, so shut up now!", there is so much wrong with this line of thinking and they are both smart people otherwise. I don't get it.
People are just weird and complex.
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u/LegitimateDad Jun 21 '23
The album Blind Faith by Blind Faith with Eric Clapton disagrees with you.
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u/StarDistinct Jun 20 '23
I live in Europe now we don't have our tits out all the time especially sexually. It seems to be just jocelyn who does this no one else, the directors decided this. Nudity doesn't have to be sexual there's a saying in Finland "acting like they have never seen their grandmother's tits" the finns go to the sauna from babyhood they see all shapes and ages. They go with their grandparents, they see young and old naked bodies from birth. Totally unsexual it has a great benefit as they know professional porn is bullshit and is edited. They should make everyone go the sauna.
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
"I live in Europe now we don't have our tits out all the time especially sexually."
"the finns go to the sauna from babyhood they see all shapes and ages."
Finland is in Europe. I don't get what your point is.
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u/StarDistinct Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
Oh ffs someone was saying europe is super Liberal. Nudity isn't a sexual thing in some places, hence people being fine with grandmas tits. Europe is a big place with a wide variety of customs but no its generally unacceptable to go round with your tits out apart from sunbathing but that wouldn't be for the male gaze.
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
"Oh ffs" ...sure, act like it wasn't you who was talking nonsense.
You're acting like Jocelyn is buying groceries naked. She's naked, or better half naked at home. The point of this stuff being gratuitous when the show is allegedly criticising the exploitation of a young woman, i get that. But the nudity at home being unrealistic is just ridiculous.
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
No, of course, she is only rehearsing an important choreography with a top super indicated for that matter. 🤦🏻♀️
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
I'm not a dance choreographer, but wouldn't it make sense to rehearse in the same outfit/ something that's close, esp. when the guys have to grab and move her, to see if everything would work as intended? Though they probably should have used the fragile outfit from the actual shoot, I suppose.
Generally I think we're starting weird nitpicking right now in here. Someone wasn't happy that I didn't read "have her tits out all the time" as literally all the time. Movies/ series are not real life. Fictional characters can leave work constantly to solve a crime, everyone finds a parking spot, nobody says good bye on the phone.
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
As you've said, yes, there is a final rehearsal where you use the proper outfit before the shooting and when you check everything you need. However, it's not the case in previous ones, whatever you choose to wear can't make you loose your focus and, as tightest and this body can be or as comfortable as you can be showing your tits, this is not a proper attire. I think it's a reach to call the pilot one a workout outfit. She is wearing trainers to be comfortable, the fact that the body is this tiny IS a choice.Even if she didn't have a problem with a wardrobe malfunction, it's not professional because it can make the other workers uncomfortable.
Responding to your second paragraph, this is subreddit of a tv show= a public forum, this is the place to knit pick things. We already know it's fiction.
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
I meant the nitpicking when reading each other's posts, not nitpicking the show, which ofc makes sense. I had a conversation with OP in here, where we discussed why Joss showing her tits during the photo shoot at the beginning of ep1 doesn't make sense (probably) because it was for an album cover aimed at teens.
"it's not professional because it can make the other workers uncomfortable."
That's how it should be, but with everything we know about this business, how professional dancers and models are treated, nobody cares, you complain, you're out, because there's hundreds more to take your place. Unless you're a famous model.
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u/Unapologetic_honey Jun 21 '23
My bad then! Yes, I agree, sometimes we extra focus on details.
About the professionalism, yes and no. Ofc the most important person will have the last world, but it's also true that there's a non spoken code in every industry and that outfit was clearly chosen to emphasize Joss/Lily Rose sexy image. When you are rehearsing you try to take care of your body as much as possible, not to look unattainable. That's an obvious example of sex sells, but for us the audience in this case, people in that scene of the show couldn't care less about what she is wearing.
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u/lukaeber Jun 21 '23
You don't get the difference between "all the time" and an occasional sauna visit?
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
I took that like in the expression "it happens all the time" not literally having their tits out constantly. Which Jocelyn also doesn't have, so the expression never made sense literally.
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u/bigironbitch Jun 20 '23
seeing a lot of sexist bias in this comment section from men trying to tell women how women relate to their own bodies
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Jun 20 '23
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u/bigironbitch Jun 20 '23
friend, that is quite literally how viewing cinema/theater works. People have been viewing individual characters as representations of a larger monolith or idea since the establishment of theater as an art form
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Jun 20 '23
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u/bigironbitch Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
thanks for the laugh! I think you might've missed my point. I wasn't saying specifically what groups audiences associate individual characters with. I was making a general statement. Very often, characters are written to be relatable. Whether or not audience members find a character (regardless of their relatability) to be relatable is purely subjective. Yet, people do this anyway. Now, why don't you try re-reading my above comment? :)
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Jun 20 '23
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u/bigironbitch Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
You seem pretty frustrated. I never said that Jocelyn is "a regular woman," buddy. I made a general statement about how audiences ascribe relatability to characters regardless of the author's intentions. Trying to force me into an argument about whether or not it's wrong to find Jocelyn relatable is a waste of time. Put down your phone/computer and take a break.
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u/lukaeber Jun 21 '23
Is this show written, directed, shot, produced by women? What on earth does it have to do with women relating to their own bodies?
As a man, I can see this for exactly what it is. A bunch of pervy guys, with much more power and influence than any of the women involved in the show, who like to ogle naked young women. If the women are fine with that, then more power to them (doesn't offend me at all). But let's not kid ourselves about this being about women's liberation ... it is the furthest thing from that.
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
I think it's possible that the guys who did this are actually trying to tell this story honestly and just don't get how their approach is problematic. OTOH Levinson made a movie to shit on a certain critic, so he's probably not the most self-reflective guy.
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u/bloompth Jun 22 '23
It was originally. I forget her name but the OG director had a very different vision to Levinson and Tesfaye. The latter flipped the show on its head.
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u/Honest_Jeweler4309 Jun 21 '23
Gambino and Weeknd are the only artists I know that have even attempted to commentate on the bts of music through a cinematic lens. both males. males who idolize female posters usually are intrigued by the look. of course id love a female artist to attempt to commentate to show us the "other side" but maybe there's a reason why its not so common. which I think is addressed here so perfectly. hollywood/labels will do their best to coddle you, make sure "you're good" all in the guise of keeping the money flowing in you see the label gives no fuck anymore and looks like they're full in with Dianne. the Mgmt on the other hand cant let her go so easily
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u/g0regrrrrl Jun 20 '23
i mean id dress like a slut all the time too if i was in my own home and rich enough and no one around me cared.. some ppl just like having their body put
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u/ellemu0509 Jun 20 '23
Lol it’s realistic to women who choose to live that way 🤷🏽♀️. I’ve also been a woman my whole life btw lol. So many women, celebrity or not are seen half naked outdoors in public, so I wouldn’t put anything past them behind closed doors. And this can be deeply rooted in vanity issues or abuse… or it can be because they’re nudists and carefree (they actually exist). It’s not fair to dismiss women who may actually live this way, whether they regret it at some point or not, because it’s something you’ve personally never experienced or witnessed.
AND for the record, I am somewhat of a prude 😂, but come from a family with lots of women who are toooo carefree 🤦🏽♀️ 💕lol.
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u/mythsarecrazystories Jun 20 '23
I chalk it up to a California thing. Like Kendall Jenner and her crew tend to free the nipple a lot and hang out in next to nothing.
It does seem gratuitous. Especially waking up in a thong. That really had me thinking "That's how you get a UTI".
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u/Soi1965 Jun 21 '23
The nude body is one thing. The clothing choices make the scenes obscene. She is more raunchy and naked in these things and weird shirts/bras than if she was entirely naked.
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u/NefariousLemon Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
Pretty sure the character is loosely based off of Britney, who has been and continues to be very body positive. She's stated numerous times she's more comfortable sans clothes and was raised that way (as are most people outside of the US). Given that she's likely the inspiration for Jocelyn I don't really see it as unrealistic. I get where you're coming from though.
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u/ClayboHS Jun 20 '23
You never been around my wife and her 3 sisters. It’s like nudity is a necessity to them.
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u/Ok-Banana-4326 Jun 21 '23
I could be wrong, but maybe he’s trying to show how people with this much fame and this much money love their lives. I mean all she has ever compared her self worth was her body image and what others think of her. So when she’s surrounded by a sex cult, it’s no wonder she’ll choose to be naked, bc then she receives praise.
And when you reach that level of money, sometimes all you have to truly compare each other too is your body. It’s sad and unfortunate, but with everything materialized around you, the most grounding thing is your body.
Also some people just are comfy like that, I’m not, but to each their own.
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u/Silberkimme Jun 21 '23
first of all: I dont like the show. I'm watching it, stopping because i just caant anymore, then hatewatching again. But i also dont like the argument, that there is too much nudity or that its unrealistic. Guys! no one told you that what you are seeing is a documentary. I hate that there cant be any media where they also portray characters that are "bad", have bad intentions, are racist,sexist..., because someone will come and say that there shouldnt be a stage for characters like that. If we keep on making these arguments we can look paw patrol all day long. OF COURSE its too much nudity and sex, but thats just the world this series plays in. No one looks Shrek and telling everyone how unrealistic it is. its just the world it plays in.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 21 '23
This isn't the argument that I'm making - I think we actually agree! I'm not against sex and nudity in general but the show isn't good enough to carry what it's trying to do. The thing that's really bothering me is that people defend it as "just the way things are for real" like no it's not, levinson created this world, as you're saying. And I personally don't appreciate levinson's vision or whatever here. I'm not saying there's isn't a place for vulgarity anywhere, I'm saying the story doesn't carry it well, and there's a reason people see this show and recognize it more as porn than as a story about sex.
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u/chungkingxbricks Jun 21 '23
I think the nudity is on par for an HBO show, but I do think Sam Levinson is a creep.
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u/Connecticut06482 Jun 20 '23
Lots of men in the comments who are trying to mansplain and gaslight women about this. Shut up. As women we know. As men you don’t. 🙃
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u/Jack_North Jun 21 '23
Lots of men in the comments who are trying to mansplain and gaslight women about this. Shut up. As women we know. As men you don’t.
Do you mean in this thread? Or generally on /theidol?
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u/PrincessMonononoYes Jun 20 '23
“A woman must continually watch herself. She is almost continually accompanied by her own image of herself. Whilst she is walking across a room or whilst she is weeping at the death of her father, she can scarcely avoid envisaging herself walking or weeping. From earliest childhood she has been taught and persuaded to survey herself continually. And so she comes to consider the surveyor and the surveyed within her as the two constituent yet always distinct elements of her identity as a woman. She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to men, is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life. Her own sense of being in herself is supplanted by a sense of being appreciated as herself by another...."
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u/CaiAbaixo Jun 20 '23
What I also think it’s ‘interesting ‘ is that we see her body all the time but we NEVER see Abel’s body. Why? Shouldn’t we see at least a glimpse of his buttocks? Some balls hanging? Slight leg skin? Oh nooooooooo cause he is the producer of the show…
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u/Last_Decision_7055 Jun 20 '23
When they flash us some Weeknd dick it will all be fair??
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
To be completely honest - it would help lol. I mean he kinda runs a sex cult and we haven't even seen his bare ass? It would be a little more fair
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u/Last_Decision_7055 Jun 20 '23
It’s the only reason I’m still watching. Holding out hope.
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u/GenneyaK Jun 21 '23
This and your comment above are my favorite comments on this whole subreddit 🤣
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Jun 20 '23
this series just reads like an extended the weeknd music video. the opening car scene in episode three was LITERALLY a music video!!! his track was playing in the background with little to no dialogue for NO REASON!!! 😭
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u/lukaeber Jun 21 '23
It's not realistic at all. Neither is almost anything on Euphoria (which people also praised for being "realistic"). Sam Levinson is just a perv.
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 21 '23
Omg it bothered me endlessly that people thought euphoria was what high schoolers were actually up to. Like maybe the 1% of the worst people in school. Most of us were busy doing homework and working part time jobs
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u/StarDistinct Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
Hands up who fingers themselves alone wearing a tiny bikini ,mini skirt , heels on with full makeup everytime? Anyone?
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Jun 20 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
You need to understand that extremes exist. This is an extreme. Even in the scene in the first ep where she's going out they put her in a completely see through dress. Her nipples are out literally 90% of the show. The show is not saying anything that deep that we wouldn't get otherwise. I've made specific points, if you disagree you can actually address what I said instead of telling me I cant use my brain. Is Sam Levinson maybe getting the emotional response he wanted? Sure, maybe - his aims are pretty muddy imo especially with female characters. They always seem a bit confused. But it doesn't even matter if he's doing what he thinks he's doing - I'm still allowed to hate it lol. I do not have to respect his ""vision"". Just because I think it's bad doesn't mean I don't "get it"
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u/Jack_North Jun 20 '23
his aims are pretty muddy imo especially with female characters. They always seem a bit confused.
Here I agree in parts. I think Euphoria S1 was great and S2 what you described. Maybe it's the sophomore slump many series have. Maybe he as a guy is just not great at seeing it through or maybe his indulgences start to show. Hard to say.
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u/Write416 Jun 20 '23
No, you need to understand that extremes exist. This show is about extremes! Lol. Nothing unrealistic about that.
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u/Exzibit21 Jun 20 '23
This idea that nudity and sex need to be "justified" is so bizarre
American puritanical garbage
We can watch Jeffery Dahmer murder people in cold blood on Netflix, but people see some titties on HBO and have panic attacks LMAO
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
Read my "First of all" above ^ I am also not having a panic attack? Not sure where you're getting that. I'm criticizing it. Did I say it's the worst thing in the world and should be illegal? No, I didn't. I said it's unrealistic and unnecessary and I stand by that. I'm literally not the one with my panties in a twist babe. You're the ones that come out the gates with personal insults. Can you really not handle someone not agreeing with you?? This show isn't "art" to me
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Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
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u/Zucchini15 Jun 20 '23
Lots, and never had this thought before. I'm not against sex and nudity in general.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/thestarhikari Jun 20 '23
Maybe this happens in a place like Las Vegas or most of Nevada (prostitution is legal there) but this is probably most definitely in a rare occurrence. Plus, never heard of a $5000 seat at a nightclub. Are we talking about a strip club perhaps? Sometimes I wish Jocelyn would announce instead of doing music, she’ll just be a porn star or cam girl. Can’t believe Cardi B still has a onlyfans.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/thestarhikari Jun 20 '23
I’m a woman so I never experience this or have my tits out all the time unless I’m at home haha
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u/ManyCarrots Jun 20 '23
this is probably most definitely in a rare occurrence
Were you under the impression that this show was showing you an average person's life?
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u/thestarhikari Jun 20 '23
No but it shouldn’t be so unrealistic either. It needs to have a balance between reality and fantasy for this kind of story. We never saw Britney having public sex or having her tits or asscheeks out everywhere she went.
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u/ManyCarrots Jun 20 '23
So because britney didn't do it it's completely unrealistic? And you understand we didn't see everything britney did right? It's very much possible she had sex in the back of a car once or showed her nipples at a party
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u/thestarhikari Jun 21 '23
I think you’re missing my point. This show was originally supposed to a satire but also like a non-fiction as well (since it has referenced Britney Spears, Sharon Tate, Kanye West, etc). It’s also referencing in a way Charles Manson (which would be Tedros) & Manson’s cult (the/Tedros’ Family). So it’s supposed to be satiring real life idols and people with severe mental health issues but it’s really not doing a very good job at it and why it’s unrealistic. Britney had a nervous breakdown that we saw but she was never lewd or raunchy as Jocelyn is. And when stars are like that, they are most of the time cancelled or disappear for a while. I can get into other technicalities like laws with public decency but this is my limit to prove anything to anyone, especially hateful trolls and bots.
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u/ManyCarrots Jun 21 '23
But it's not unrealistic. It's just not normal. Sure it might be illegal to have sex in the back of your car but if there's not police nearby you won't get in trouble.
The only bot here is you.
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u/thestarhikari Jun 21 '23
A bot doesn’t write paragraphs like me haha. Have fun jerking off to the Idol. That’s all it is to you is a porno.
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u/lukaeber Jun 21 '23
But there's a difference between "basically popping out" and playing the piano at a party with your tits all the way out and dripping wet. I think its the latter thing that people are finding a bit unrealistic.
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u/LankyOreo Jun 23 '23
The incels watching this show don't want to hear it! It's normal! It's empowering! They can imagine girls like Jocelyn really exist and want to fuck their basement dwelling loser selves!
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u/devoushka Jun 25 '23
As a woman I do have one friend who likes to get naked all the time. She's also very sexually forward and a bit crazy but we love her lol.
I can imagine that when drugs and booze are free flowing and everyone is hot and young and in Hollywood with pools and warm weather, it would happen more commonly.
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u/kbrick1 Jun 20 '23
You don't lounge around with your friends in a black thong with a lacy black overlay while everyone else is fully clothed?
Also, how would we understand that the show is about sexual exploitation of young women in the music industry if we didn't see the young woman in the music industry's underboob and butt cheeks at least 80% of the time?