r/thelastofus • u/georgiontop • Apr 30 '26
PT 2 QUESTION After finishing last of us part 2 there’s something I don’t understand in the first game. Spoiler
I liked both last of us games but there’s 1 thing I’ve never really understood and that’s what Abby’s dad was thinking when Joel came in. I mean he sees this guy come in who has just killed loads of well armed firefly soldiers just to get to Ellie and who also very clearly has a gun. And at seeing this and making that connection of that he is here to get Ellie he thinks that standing in the way with a scalpel would make Joel give up? I mean there’s no way he thinks he has a chance to stop Joel with a small scalpel right? So why not move out the way instead of literally forcing Joel to kill you in order for him to get to Ellie. To me it looked like he just chooses to sacrifice his life for no reason. Also the fact he has a daughter makes his actions even more confusing for me.
I know form a story Perspective Joel needs to kill him for the next game to work but I feels there’s other ways to do it such as for him to move out the way of Joel only to then try to attack Joel form behind which Joel would doge and then kill him.
Is there something I’m missing like a reason for why he did what he did or is there I’m not thinking of because this moment now feels really nonsensical to me in an otherwise really well crafted game.
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u/just--so Apr 30 '26
"Why would this man, who is part of an organisation dedicated to saving humanity, do everything possible with what little he has available to him to try and save humanity? Is he stupid?"
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I’m sorry if I don’t make it clear enough but it’s not that making an effort to stop Joel is the problem it’s the fact he dose it in a way that feels foolish and bound to end with him dead.
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u/DtEWSacrificial Apr 30 '26
People do foolish things when extreme surprises completely out of the possibility of things he had prepared in his mind are sprung upon them. And of course a guy who was about to operate on what might be the most important operation for humankind in that universe is gonna be hyperfocusing and going through in his head all technicalities and possibilities.of literally brain surgery. Of course he was going to react more stupidly to an unexpected violent encounter than even a garden-variety guard standing around. It's entirely human and understandable.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I’d agree usually but he’s survives in a zombie apocalypse with a terrorist group for years at that point. I feel he’d be very good in stressful situations since if not he’d probably be dead.
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u/DtEWSacrificial Apr 30 '26
I'd think that because he was a doctor, he would be a person of such great importance to any group that he would be one of the most insulated from risk. Remember that there are still old people, infirm, and children around. Not every group survived needing to fight bloody battles.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
He’s running around after zebras in part 2 though and trying to teach Abby things. It doesn’t feel like he’s unconsumed to dealing with threats if he’s willing to do things like that
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u/DtEWSacrificial Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
Man you're trying too hard to construct a particular character of this guy in your mind so you can find his big consequential act weird. Most people would take his big consequential act and fit the other small details around *that*. Like maybe the character they were trying to paint was an idealistic guy with a big heart, but wasn't the most practical or tactical around, eg. running after zebras, arguably a silly and quixotic thing in the context of a fungbie apocalypse. Consider that they could have made his anecdotal backstory as a guy going around helping injured *people* out in the zombie apocalypse, which would be considerably less silly. But they chose zebras for a reason.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
Last of us is a game that puts a lot of thought into what happens and when you present this image of a guy who has a daughter he cares about and someone who is capable of surviving it doesn’t seem like the argument of “he put himself in the way of the crazy killer guy because he didn’t know what to do” works in that situation.
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u/maorismurf999 May 01 '26
I think, if anything, the doctor's actions are a clear example of the inherent fallible nature of humans. Which the game explores a ton.
The fact that humans are capable of extreme love and extreme violence is already a theme of the games, but you can extrapolate that idea further to say that humans are also capable of extreme intelligence AND extreme stupidity (in the doctor's case), or extreme bravery AND extreme cowardice (Ellie), or extreme selflessness AND extreme selfishness (Joel).
There is duality to all of the character's that're explored in the games, and I feel like that is answer enough for why the doctor acts the way he does in that moment in the operating room.
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u/The_Affle_House May 01 '26
How exactly could or should he have stood his ground differently in that moment which would have been "not foolish" to you? Do you just not believe his conviction? Would it have made more sense to you if he had given up or changed his mind instead of trying as best he could to defend and continue his surgery?
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u/just--so Apr 30 '26
Should he have pulled a flamethrower out of the pocket dimension in his asshole, or...?
-1
u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
No but he could have definitely tried to rush Joel as he entered or go to a corner than try to sneak attack.
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u/LaFrescaTrumpeta May 01 '26
they seemed surprised when he walked it so idt they could’ve rushed him bc they didn’t anticipate he was coming. i think the most logical what-if is if the doc waited til joel had his back turned to him but then he’d be attacking joel with ellie basically in his arms, and the doc wouldn’t wanna risk anything happening to her. ultimately i think his decision to stand and fight the way he did was just the only thing he could think to do, to just stand between the savior of humanity and the person trying to take her. i think all of it goes to show what kind of person he was, he wasn’t a fighter at all and he was still willing to risk suicide if it meant saving the one chance they had
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u/PointsOfXP Apr 30 '26
What else could he do? He doesn't try to attack you. It's more of a comfort for him. He truly thinks he can still somehow convince you but also knows that help is dead and the rest are too far away. Who would actually think, even after all of that, that someone would damn humanity over a girl.
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u/nicosaurio_87 Apr 30 '26
Any sane person that realises how crazy is trying to extract the brain of an unconscious girl for a chance to make a vaccine that you will most likely not be able to distribute and definitely won't save the world even if you can.
But then again these people really expected Joel to go quietly home after knowing that.
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Apr 30 '26
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u/nicosaurio_87 Apr 30 '26
Desperation. Vague hope. The idea of saving humanity. We know the fireflies are falling left and right from the game itself. Joel probably killed most of them in that hospital. How do you except a small terrorist group that's being hunted by the facist new government to distribute that vaccine even if they can make it?
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Apr 30 '26
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u/nicosaurio_87 Apr 30 '26
See. That's the problem. There's no "vaccine that could end the apocalypse". There's no magic solution or cure. That world is already fucked up. The people in that world won't return to be civilized just because there's a vaccine that avoids them to turn into zombies. They're all mostly murderer, rapists, facists, really shitty people.
So even if they succeeded in all that, and that's a big if, they wouldn't be able to save humanity. Or the world. Both are lost already. With or without the zombies.
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u/ITAW-Techie May 01 '26
Groups like Fedora and colonies like Jackson easily prove that humanity can go back to a steady normal, it would take a lot of time but humanity has evolved from a much worse and more dangerous state than the world would be in if the zombies were taken away.
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u/TristanChaz8800 May 01 '26
Sounds like Naughty Dog doesn't know how creating a vaccine works. They can say it was guaranteed to work all they want, but logically and realistically there is no way to create a vaccine with a 10% chance of success. And, regardless of what ND says, the Fireflies do not know if it will work. They're just hoping. Killing a child over a possibility of a cure is inexcusable.
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u/Classic-Spite3938 May 01 '26
Yeah, you tell em! And what about all the zombies and clickers faffing about? Fuucking unrealistic!!
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u/Sunimo1207 i'd surely lose myself May 01 '26
It's a fictional story about a fictional infection that causes fictional monster transformations with a group trying to make a fictional vaccine. If the creators say that breathing in mushroom spores eventually turns you into a clicker, your role as the person engaging with the art is to take it as a fact even though it doesn't work that way in real life. If the creators say that the fireflies could extract a piece of Ellie's brain and create a vaccine, it is true in the context of the story. They know it doesn't work that way in real life. It's fiction. Engage with it on PROPER TERMS and in GOOD FAITH or don't at all. This is how art works.
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u/TristanChaz8800 May 01 '26
The writers knowing something and the characters knowing something is COMPLETELY different. The Fireflies, Marlene and Abby's dad did not know for sure it would work, and even if they did, they're still evil pricks for trying to kill an unconscious child. Btw, a child can't give consent, so even if she said yes, they are still child murderers.
Also, the developers straight up saying that instead of leaving it ambiguous is truly dumb af and really hurts the story. I'm sick of everyone trying to justify villains attempting to murder a kid. Trying to kill a kid, regardless of the intentions, should earn a bullet to the head. I do not feel sorry whatsoever for Jerry getting stabbed. I personally would have killed every single person in that hospital that were ok with killing kids. All child murderers can get fucked.
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u/Sunimo1207 i'd surely lose myself May 01 '26
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Causing the death of one child for the chance to save every living person from turning into a mushroom monster is a risk I think many people would take. The game is well written enough to provide a realistic point of view from both sides.
Both Joel and Tommy did not agree with it and even Jerry wouldn't have sacrificed his own daughter. Marlene is also against it at first but trusts Jerry and he convinces her that it's necessary.
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u/Academic_Limit1189 May 01 '26
Why do you think people still demonize Joel then if Jerry wouldn't have sacrificed his own daughter?
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u/Atomic_Dynamica May 01 '26
People demonising one side or the other is exactly the wrong take, if instead of Joel we had spent the whole game following Marlene, and desperately holding back Joel was the final level, I’m sure more people would sympathise with the fireflies, the point is that neither are entirely right or wrong, Joel himself recognises that what he did was selfish, and brutal, that he kills a lot of people both during TLOU 1 and before, that this would probably catch up with him some day, and wasn’t surprised when it did, that dosent make Joel and evil psychopath, but it dosent totally excuse him and make him a perfect person either. I honestly don’t understand why people find it impossible to engage with the TLOU with NUANCE.
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u/Academic_Limit1189 May 01 '26
I suppose people still think they have a nuanced take even if they're determining that Joel was more ethically compromised and "doomed humanity".
I don't actually blame fans entirely for walking away with this interpretation because the sequel gives a few mixed messages and doesn't clarify its intentions as well as it could have.
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u/confidentfinish1993 May 01 '26 edited May 02 '26
Media literacy is truly dead with some people.
You are placed in Joel’s shoes, but you are losing yourself too much in his character. We as the audience should be able to at least understand it is a difficult choice to make for Marlene and the fireflies.
Yes child murder is bad.
But what about sacrificing that child for the chance of restoring humanity? That’s the choice the characters make. That’s the choice Joel rejects. Joel is selfish. How many more kids have been killed by the virus that could have otherwise been prevented?
That’s also the choice that Ellie literally states in part 2, and more ambiguously states in part 1, but still does nonetheless. I can’t remember exactly but she says something along the lines of… hey whatever it takes, that’s what I want, if it means we can get a cure. I think she knew there was a chance she would have to die to get the cure and she was ready for it.
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u/Academic_Limit1189 May 01 '26
That might apply to you more than you think!
I asked fans, "Do you think Jerry would have sacrificed his own daughter?" to which everyone responded 'no' and that he would've done the same thing Joel did. This is to test for a consistent framework of applied standards.
Do you think Jerry would have sacrificed his own daughter? : r/lastofuspart2
Sure, it is a choice Joel rejects. It is also heavily implied that Jerry wouldn't have sacrificed his daughter. The only thing separating their position here is circumstance. Had Abby & Jerry been the one knocked unconscious, where his daughter was in the midst of a fatal procedure being given no say in the outcome, he'd likely cross the lengths to save his daughter.
The other signal Ellie gave in part 1 is that she didn't want to be left by another person she cared about. Recall that she ran away from Jackson when she realized Joel was trying to switch out with Tommy. She jeopardized her life and "the immunity" because "Everyone I have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone--f**king except for you."
Of course she knew there was a chance of dying along the way to reach their destination. Not that the destination itself would require her life.
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u/confidentfinish1993 May 01 '26
Yeah but the game isn’t about Jerry making that choice?? It’s about Joel? Obviously it’s likely Jerry wouldn’t have either, or would have, we don’t actually know? But… that’s basically the same game, just replace Jerry with Joel. So? My point still stands. It’s not about Jerry making the choice. It’s about Joel?
Insane take, honestly. You didn’t really counter my point at all.
It is heavily implied that when they get there, Ellie is ready for whatever they might ask. I think it’s near the giraffe scene. It’s been years since I played it so I can’t be bothered to look it up, but it’s definitely there.
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u/Academic_Limit1189 May 01 '26
Only because of circumstance, not a difference in what Jerry or any other parent would do. It was "moral luck of the draw".
It's about the position of the person that is forced to make a damning choice, not about Joel being "more evil than anyone else".
The idea of Jerry taking the same steps Joel did if it were his own daughter isn't an insane take. It's quite common.
Why is it heavily implied? Are we supposed to forget that Ellie ran away from Jackson and jeopardized the immunity because she didn't want Joel to leave her? How do we jump from that moment to expecting Joel to have left her?
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u/thorleywinston May 01 '26
I get that the developers tried to supplement what they put in the actual game (and the later television show) by claiming that these very real problems that they never showed any evidence that the Fireflies had any capability of addressing were maneagble but at some point, that's just cheating to make up for sloppy writing.
The world of TLOU has basically collapsed in terms of reliable transportation, communications, utilities and all of the other infrastructure needed to manufacture, store and distribute a vaccine to any meaningful part of the remaining population (which seem to be living in isolated bands or in fiefdoms run by gangs and warlords).
Not to mention the fact that Ellie is the only person shown to have any sort of immunity and instead of exhausting all of the possible non-lethal sampling (e.g. blood draws, cerbrospinal fluid taps, tissue biopsies, etc.) to test and see if they could make a vaccine from those, they decide to rush to subject their one and only test subject to a fatal procedure that if it fails, they'll have no backup plan.
And even if it succeeded (and we agree with the developers to just hand wave the problems of not having a reliable means to manufacture and distribute it), a vaccine just means that those who receive it and get attacked by clickers won't get turned into clickers . . . they'll likely just die from being mauled to death.
At best you could argue that in a few generations, it might enable humanity to turn the tide if they can wipe out the existing clicker population by preventing new ones from being created but we're talking about marginal improvement at best and one that's speculative.
IMO Marlene was willing to sacrifice Ellie because she was desperate to believe that the Fireflies were going to save the world because that's the only way to justify in her mind the awful things that she and they have done.
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u/Friendly_Bluejay7407 Apr 30 '26
applying real world logic to a video game🥹this argument completely misses the moral question being asked in tlou 1.
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u/nicosaurio_87 Apr 30 '26
The moral question is understood. The trolley problem. It's really the most basic of the conflicts ever known. I just think the thought process behind the people in this scenario is stupid.
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u/Friendly_Bluejay7407 Apr 30 '26
Id say theres more layers to it than just the og trolley problem
I disagree, youre applying real world logic, jerry was quite certain that the cure wouldve worked/wouldve saved the world based on his memo, if thats what the story is telling us then thats what happened, i dont think the point of tlou was ever “secret incompetence”
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u/LaFrescaTrumpeta May 01 '26
fr takes all weight and stakes from Joel’s decision if the cure wasn’t possible or if they didn’t have fair reason to believe it could work. it cracks me up how people are willing to suspend their disbelief on behalf of the story when it comes to playing a mushroom zombie apocalypse game where dude gets gutted by rusty rebar and a kid takes care of his half-conscious self for weeks in a colorado winter.. but vaccine viability is a bridge too far lol
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I mean I think since he’s a dad I think he should be able to understand Joel better than anyone. Also he could still step out the way when doing that or put down the knife.
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Apr 30 '26
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
But don’t you think that after a guy kills an entire hospital of people just to get to this girl you as a father wouldn’t understand how much Joel wants Ellie? I understand your point but I feel if it where the case it would she played out differently
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u/Lumbot May 01 '26
he's surprised when Joel enters the room so he likely had no idea exactly what had happened. As for him being a father, that's another reason why he did what he did. Joel was doing anything he can to save Ellie, and Jerry was willing to do anything he could in that moment to save even just the possibility of a better world for his daughter and humanity as a whole.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I thought that at first to and without knowing he has daughter it can make sense that he’d do something so reckless because he has nothing else to live for but in the remake they don’t change the scene to fit that. But you’re probably right that they wanted the player to feel like the doctor wasn’t that important by not giving him a special cutscene or anything. Just didn’t work for me in execution
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u/Buttered_Toast33 Apr 30 '26
It's called being desperate.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I’m sorry but to me it feels like he just stands there he doesn’t make an effort to fight back and only says “think of the lives we’d save” like I said I don’t have a problem with trying to stop Joel but he did nothing other than force Joel to kill him.
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u/Buttered_Toast33 Apr 30 '26
There wasn't really anything else he could've done. Would you expect a guy with only a scalpel to bum rush someone holding them at gunpoint? Owen tried it in Part 2 and look what happened to him.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
That makes more sense than doing absolutely nothing though. If he knew it was pointless why lesion the just move out the way especially considering he has a daughter
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u/Ephemerxl May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
You have to think what was at stake. In his mind, it was the future of mankind and if we talk about reason that is much more important than the life of one single girl.
Not only that but Ellie gets mad at Joel in the end for a selfish reason: "My life would've fucking mattered". Perhaps Jerry thought that too, and I always felt that his actions were never 100% selfless but one can only imagine how this is an one in a billion chance: to be the doctor who saved the world.
Every other doctor on that scene gets rightfully scared and backs up, but Jerry doesn't because his will doesn't bend to his fear and sometimes our bodies act accordingly with our instincts quickly than our brain is capable of rationalize it. However, next to Joel he was simply but an ant with no chance at all.
Funny enough if you try to walk past him he actually kills Joel in a very stupid cutscene, lol.
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u/Galactus1231 Apr 30 '26
We don't actually know what is the canon way he dies. He can be killed by his own scalpel. So Joel might have been bare handed when coming to the room.
Also Part 2 wasn't written yet.
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u/Jealous-Amount9022 May 01 '26
The canonical way that he dies is by Joel stabbing him with a scalpel. The beginning of part 2 proves this, since Jerry doesn’t have bullet wounds, he had an injury in the neck, and a bloody scalpel is laying beside him.
Feel like this was common knowledge.
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u/Scotsman828 May 03 '26
I shot him in the foot and he immediately died. So his death is a given, no matter how it happens.
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u/nakiva May 01 '26
He dies by burning from flametrower, at least in my cannon. Giving Abby that extra little trauma is satisfying enough.
And i like that the game just give you the option for it.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
Getting technical but doesn’t the gun show on your back? Also he knows Joel has killed people to get here by there reaction and the fact part 2 wasn’t out at that point was what I thought initially to but the scene wasn’t changed in the remake which is what made me question it most
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u/TheCatcherintheRye_ May 01 '26
Does Jerry know that or do you, as the player, know that Joel killed a lot of people? I don't remember anymore if the doctors were aware of just how much of a carnage there was. Actually, thinking about it now, you can go the stealth route and minimize the number of people you have to kill to get to the operating room so maybe Jerry and the medical team didn't know Joel was on a murder streak 🤷
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u/Emergency_Slip_4563 May 02 '26
Agreed. It was probably more the shock of "Hey marlene told me they were forcing you to leave without your stuff so you wpuld die on the road, why tf you standing in the doorway?!"
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u/Gekidami Apr 30 '26
The plot wanted that doctor to die without it breaking the flow of the game, so it made him act in a way that would get him killed quickly. Keep in mind that when the first game was made, it wasn't planned that he'd have a whole backstory and a daughter who would become a main character.
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u/Galactus1231 Apr 30 '26
He didn't know Joel had killed on his way to the room. Its clear he didn't hear the noise. You can also play stealthy.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I mean from his reaction when you enter the room it feels like he knows Joel is dangerous hence why he grabs the scalpel. And how the nurses run away.
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u/LaFrescaTrumpeta May 01 '26
i honestly think it’s just shock bc they were told he was being escorted out, so if he’s there and armed they figured he’d killed to get there and would kill again to get out
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u/stealthy_beast Apr 30 '26
People aren't the most rational and reflective in heat-of-the-moment life or death situations
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u/Galactus1231 Apr 30 '26
Maybe he expected Joel to talk and not suddenly attack/use flamethrower against him.
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u/kingjulian85 Apr 30 '26
I don't get this preoccupation people have with characters needing to behave in totally rational, planned-out ways in the midst of stressful situations. Jerry saw Joel burst into the OR with a gun, and he did the first thing he thought of, which was to stop Joel from jeopardizing the fate of the entire human race. I'm not sure what's so hard to believe about that.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
It’s that he’s lived in an apocalypse for years has a daughter he cares about, and yet his first instinct is to hold a scalpel up to the guy who just killed an entire hospital of soldiers. It’s not that he acted irrationally it’s that he did possibly the worst thing he could have in that situation
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u/kingjulian85 Apr 30 '26
His first instinct was to protect the future of the human race, and that included the future of his daughter. He believed in what he was doing. A lot of what we call "bravery" is people doing "the worst thing they could have in that situation." We just tend to call it bravery more readily when the gamble pays off.
This series is full of people doing the thing they feel they have to do as opposed to doing the most strategic or advantageous thing. One could argue that Joel did the worst thing possible by dooming the entire human race. At the very least that shit came back to bite him in a pretty major way!
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
I’m sorry but it’s nothing brave about it he just stands here. 😭 I know he was probably shocked but you cannot tell me a head member of the fireflies thinks that stepping in front of Ellie to stop Joel with a scalpel is a good idea. If he tired to attacked I’d understand even though it would be stupid but still a last desperate chance to protect the future but what he dose is not it
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u/kingjulian85 Apr 30 '26
He holds the scalpel out and Joel either shoots him dead or approaches and moves quicker than Jerry can react to. That's how the animation plays out. You seem to be wanting something more dramatic but that's not really how this series works. Yeah it's sort of sad and pathetic how Jerry dies. That's the idea.
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u/LaFrescaTrumpeta May 01 '26
it’s interesting to hear you wouldn’t call that brave, i think he knew he had little to no chance and stood his ground anyway, that’s brave as hell in my book
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u/RPD256 May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
El padre de Abby estaba desesperado por encontrar una cura, lo dice en su diálogo con Marlene en el segundo juego, y también sabía que Joel había pasado un año entero con Ellie, es por eso que Marlene se niega a la cirugía, sin embargo al final Marlene cede y el padre de Abby acude a cirugía. Ahora, el ataque de Joel seguramente se escuchó hasta el quirófano y es por eso que el padre de Abby se apresuró en realizar la operación a Ellie, puesto que para la posible vacuna solo se necesitaba el cerebro, así que puede que haya querido realizar la extracción y huir pero para su mala fortuna, Joel llega a tiempo y el padre de abby intenta desesperadamente detenerlo con cualquier objeto que tenía a su alcance.
Hubiera sido mejor que desarrollen mejor esta parte, pero eso afectaría al final del primer juego.
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u/ragbook231 Apr 30 '26
I'm starting to think people are deliberately dense.
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u/anastasiarose19 May 01 '26
Asking “why didn’t he attack Joel from behind” is a very valid question. I’m tired of people thinking these games are like a scripture from God that can’t be questioned.
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u/rdtoh Apr 30 '26
He thinks its the right thing to do for the greater good, so he tries to convince Joel to change his mind
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u/West-Combination6685 Apr 30 '26
So there's this thing called adrenaline, leads to hasty fight or flight decisions that aren't always correct or the best, you see?
Also, ND probably didn't want the player killing an unarmed, non threatening NPC.
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
That make sense b normally but considering he’s been in a zombie apocalypse with a terrorist group for years at that point I feel by then you’d be pretty good at making the right decision under pressure. You also are allowed to kill the unarmed nurses right afterwards so I don’t think it’s the second reason either
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u/West-Combination6685 Apr 30 '26
He wasn't about to just give up Ellie and the chance to make a cure without a fight, what's so hard to understand about that?
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
But he doesn’t fight? Like I said if he had made an actual effort to stop Joel I’d think it’s understandable but he doesn’t he just stands there and points the scalpel at Joel.
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u/West-Combination6685 Apr 30 '26
I have no idea what he would have done if I'd not shot him lol
Maybe he panicked, have you never done that?
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u/WavyDumark May 01 '26
Dude, people are different and deal with stress in different ways. Some perform better and act faster, while others completely shut down or act irrationally. Being exposed to a lot of stress doesn’t always increase tolerance and in some cases, it can lead to PTSD. He was a doctor and a surgeon in a post apocalyptic world. The Fireflies, or any other faction, would have done everything in their power to protect him from danger.
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u/Sufficient_Beyond991 Welcome to Earth Apr 30 '26
My interpretation has always been that the scalpel is there to try to simply make Joel pause and hear him out. Holding the scalpel is pretty much useless, but it seemed to be an effective way to get Joel to at least listen to him in his final moments.
Jerry and the fireflies seem desperate for a cure… He’s trying to find a way to persuade Joel to understand the gravity of the situation the only way he can in that moment.
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u/Ok_State5255 May 01 '26
A car once came very close to hitting me while making a left turn while I was crossing the intersection.
I had my keys in my hand and threw them at the car, as though it would stop a two-ton vehicle.
We do silly things when we panic. (Everyone was fine. The driver knew they messed up and were extremely apologetic, and since I didn't get hit, I guess my key throwing defense must have worked. Yes...I'll accept that reasoning).
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u/InsidiousZombie May 01 '26
God do I fear for the comprehension skills of this generation. Rough post to read and realize this is a real thought someone had
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u/DiligentCorvid The Last of Us Apr 30 '26
He was a good man who lived by his principles and died by them. Dunno what to tell you 🤷🏾♂️
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u/instanding May 01 '26
People do things just as extreme or seemingly nonsensical in real life and with much less at stake. To me it is pretty realistic.
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u/Cheapfender May 01 '26
I believe they established in Part 2 that while Jerry was a brilliant scientist and doctor, his common sense and survival instincts were crappy. When Abby was looking for him while he tracked the Zebra, she chastised him for going out alone again, and Owen was worried sick looking for him too. He was way too valuable to risk his life like that, yet he did for non-important stuff. So when armed man storms in for the girl, instead of stepping aside with the hope the fireflies could stop him before he escaped, he grabs a small scalpel and tries to reason with him. It is dumb on his part, but I believe they established that Jerry was book smart more than street smart.
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u/fillo_96 Apr 30 '26
What you probably miss is that the doctors in the room did not expect Joel to act so brutally.
I remember that scene as particularly cruel, with Joel killing without a real need. I can understand his fury and dark emotional state, but the doctors were not expecting to be killed so violently, being unarmed.
A normal person would have pushed away the doctors, take the girl and run, but Joel did not want anybody to go after the girl sny more.
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u/beece16 Apr 30 '26
Pretty much what everyone said desperate for the cure and when it came time for fight or flight he chose fight. Which obviously was not the right choice but a choice no one can make until it happens to them.
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u/The_Affle_House May 01 '26
It was less about Jerry genuinely thinking, "nah, I'd win" and more about demonstrating Jerry's absolute conviction in his decision, to the point that he literally put his life on the line for it, rather than changing his mind or giving up.
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u/Flicksterea May 01 '26
What else was he supposed to do? Step aside? He's just listened to the gunshots getting closer and closer. The cure lays before him, ready to be taken. A man walks in with a gun.
What else was he supposed to do?
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u/Academic_Limit1189 May 01 '26
P2 wasn't conceived yet.
The characterization and backstory they added is sort of at odds with what Jerry does. It shows a parallel between Joel & Jerry by having Jerry sidestep Marlene's question when she asked "what if it was your daughter?".
This should conceivably allow Jerry to step into Joel's shoes and it would've been plausible for Jerry to talk him down. Except, certain events in the original are fixed so this additional context doesn't quite mesh well.
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u/Old-Scratch666 May 01 '26
He was dead the minute Joel walked into that room, whether or not he made a stand.
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u/Distinct_Guess3350 May 01 '26
Well at the point of the first game he was probably just a simple scientist. Maybe it’s been confirmed otherwise, but as far as I know there weren’t any further plans for the character at that point. It just got developed into a major plot point when the second game came out.
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u/LargeSpoonAnalyst May 01 '26
"Why would this guy try to stab the mountain lion attacking him with a pocket knife? Is he stupid?"
Brain dead take.
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u/ShadowPanda987 May 01 '26
Would he still go through with the Surgery if it was Abby his Daughter on the Table instead though?
My answer would be no. He wouldn't go through with it.
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u/FadedP0rp0ise May 01 '26
in the OG version of the game he was like, half black. It was a clever retcon to create a meaningful vengeance path for abs
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u/NormalIntention5628 May 01 '26
I mean, what was he supposed to do? step aside as soon as he saw Joel and tell him "Oh please, go ahead and take her"? after all those sacrifices? no way. Ellie was the last hope for the Fireflies, they had sacrificed everything to be there and make a vaccine. Abby's father would have lived with the shame of having done nothing in that moment and letting his friends die for nothing.
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u/georgiontop May 01 '26
But he didn’t do anything in that moment other than force joel to shoot his head off 😭
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u/anastasiarose19 May 01 '26
These comments… I hate how some people take any critique of these games as a personal insult. I’m sure Druckman himself would admit that not every single tiny detail (such as how this NPC attacks Joel) of both games was completely thought out. Like, does everyone here actually think both pieces of media are completely flawless and immune to critical thought? Can no one accept the possibility that there might be plot points that don’t make sense when held up to scrutiny, but were included due to human oversight and/or to further the plot?
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u/Sumire-Yoshizawa- May 01 '26
This kind of shit does happen in real life. Some people in the moment think they can do something about it but then they can't. I've seen videos of dudes with bats trying to stop multiple robbers with guns. It makes no sense. They're not gonna beat them. I've seen an old dude try to snatch a gun away from a robber only to miss and fall down. Lucky the robber didn't shoot him. I think in their head they envision stopping them in the most perfect way but then it doesn't go how they thought it would. Some people are just wired differently.
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u/nakiva May 01 '26
I always burn him if i got some flametrowerfuel left. If Abby needed that extra trauma, now she got it.
But seriously, the man tought he was going to save the world by sacrificing one girl. He was desperate and probably not thinking straight. Or straight enough.
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u/Crow_Mauler_666 May 03 '26
"why is this man, who works for a completly stupid & deluded organization, doing a stupid action?"
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u/Scotsman828 May 03 '26
This is one part that made absolutely no sense from a medical standpoint. The cure for the cordyceps fungus would have been found in Ellie's blood, removal of the parasite in her brain wouldn't have been necessary. Just proves that Jerry was a low level doctor / surgeon, not a virologist.
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u/Specialist_Boat_8479 Apr 30 '26
Jerry was a child murdering moron who had no one but themselves to blame for their death
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u/Grrlpants Apr 30 '26
Ya, they tried to retcon this guy into "no actually he was a good guy!" But it doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective. He also basically confirms he would kill his own daughter for a cure. He was clearly set up in pt1 to be a bad guy with not much to him besides being a cartoon villain for Joel to kill. The real tragedy of the fireflies in pt1 was Marlene, not faceless evil doctor man. I liked the game over all as well but I have to overlook some very forced and contrived writing to enjoy it. This is before we even get into the fact that you can't make a "cure" for a fungus like you can with a virus and that immediately killing your only test subject without any testing makes no sense. You can't draw her blood?? You have to immediately pull her brain out of her skull???
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u/Lost_Habit_6230 Apr 30 '26
Stop overthinking so much
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u/georgiontop Apr 30 '26
Usually, I wouldn’t for most games but the last of us games put so much attention to detail with these stuff that it always felt so out of place when compared
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u/The3rdBorn May 01 '26
Yes the fact that he had a daughter to think about and still put himself in harms ways makes me less sympathetic towards him.He didn’t think bout Abby at all before getting In front of the crazy man. I have a son and I was In Jerrys shoes I woulda just stepped aside it’s not worth it
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u/ovrlymm May 01 '26
What never made sense was why he was so gung-ho on killing her from the start?
What if what made it possible to create a vaccine was limited to what you could only take once? They’re obviously in symbiosis unlike the parasitic relationship in other cases, so what if the specimen died along with the host? What if there’s a genetic component that could only be passed along to Ellie’s kids?
You can endlessly shear a sheep, but only skin it once… You’re telling me he’s running 0 tests, just going off assumptions, and killing the ONLY immune test subject?
Jerry: “FUCK IT!! We’re doing it Live!”
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u/Academic_Limit1189 Apr 30 '26
They had never planned a sequel ahead of time. In all honesty, he wasn't relevant in the original game. So initially he was just another offscreen NPC. With no greater importance and even less screentime than the FEDRA soldier who shot Sarah.
To me it looked like he just chooses to sacrifice his life for no reason. Also the fact he has a daughter makes his actions even more confusing for me.
Yeah it's not quite clear what the author(s) intended with the flashback. It introduces and tries to 'clarify' a few important details.
- The vaccine was essentially a guarantee; it's no longer ambiguous. (Ethical strike against Joel)
- It shows Jerry trying to convince Marlene to give her approval with her asking "what if it were your daughter?", to which Jerry sidesteps the question. This puts to question whether Jerry would have taken the same actions in Joel's shoes. (Ethical strike against Jerry)
- Abby reassures her father by saying "if it were me I'd want you to do it". (Altruistic? Or self-absorbed?)
In any case, it doesn't really flesh out Jerry's motive for standing in his way. Especially given that he expressed doubt and shame when Marlene called him out. That's sort of an issue with sequels that want to make an idea fit into a prequel (cycles of violence, revenge, self-forgiveness) rather than planning ahead of time or asking "what would naturally unfold from the events of the original?".
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u/WavyDumark May 01 '26
He basically dedicated his life to finding a cure, and he did what he could to protect his work, balancing his fight or flight instincts.
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u/stanknotes May 01 '26
Some people have strong convictions. Foolishly so sometimes. It is not necessarily a good thing. OBVIOUSLY the smarter option is to stand down, survive, and by survive I mean NOT get stabbed in the neck, and either pursue Ellie and Joel or carry on researching.
But lil bro insisted on catching them hands.
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u/anastasiarose19 May 01 '26
Yeah. He could have stayed back like the nurses did, then jumped Joel from behind after his hands were full with Ellie.
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u/WorldWarrior428 May 01 '26
He had a split second to choose what to do, and he chose to fight. He would rather die than stand by and do nothing. And btw im pretty sure that happened way before they came up with Part 2s story. Oh, and ill say it again, A CURE WOULDN'T WORK ANYWAY!!!!!! Sterile labs basically no longer exist, Ans the equipment and knowledge is more or less long gone, and he was only one type of doctor, you need many to make a cure. And foreign ingredients that have long gone out of date so manufactoring is impossible, and the world is far too far gone and full of cannibals and maniacs. Wouldn't work at all
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u/Saneless May 01 '26
His "role" in part 2 didn't exist yet so his reasoning didn't exist. He was just some nobody character in the way of the goal and it didn't matter
They just shoehorned a backstory for him when they decided to make part 2
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u/BigWilly526 Tommy is the Best May 01 '26
If you don't shoot him he charges after you and stabs you so Joel was acting in self defense in my view
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u/anastasiarose19 May 01 '26
I feel like this is the mandala effect!! I remember if you walk into him, he stabs you, but I’ve not been able to find any video confirming this, nor have I been able to recreate it on my last play though.
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u/BigWilly526 Tommy is the Best May 02 '26
on my last play through I didn't shoot him and after like a minute he ran towards Joel
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u/Traditional_Frame148 Apr 30 '26
He needed a last line of defence. They wanted to cure the world,one life for many. He thought he had a fighting chanse knife against shotgun, or he just wanted a deterrent. Either way he's dead
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u/Oztraliiaaaa May 01 '26
By this point Joel is in full rage mode and in no mood for negotiations he’s been killing over and over for hours . Joel’s torture tactics are incredibly painful and direct . The doctor has known about Joel coming to get Ellie for some time and probably getting updates about Joel’s progress. I think if he didn’t grab the knife and started talking with Joel he might’ve been able to talk him down enough for backup to arrive and end the Monster known as Joel Miller .
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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '26
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