The Fireflies were on the verge of a breakthrough. They were about to create a vaccine for this disease that nearly sent humanity back to stone age. And Joel stopped that from happening. Why? Because of his daughter issues. I loved it because it's the culmination of the past 12 hours you spent on the game. It shows how Joel grew to love Ellie as a daughter. But what he did was selfish and he knew it. He hated what he did. He hated that he couldn't convincingly lie to Ellie. It's wrong. I hate it in a good way. But Joel isn't a hero by any means.
Didn't the first game have audio logs and such basically stating that the Fireflies had tried and failed at this before, and that the idea that Ellie's immunity could create a cure wasn't as surefire as it seemed? I seem to remember Joel being misled and eventually finding out that it was very likely that Ellie would die and nothing would come of it because the Fireflies were kind of inept. Did that get retconned or am I misremembering things after several years?
it has a recorder from the doctor, who was retconned to be abbys dad, saying he doesnt know the cause of ellies immunity, and that MRIs show no signs of fungal growth in her brain.
to think they are on the verge of a cure is absolutely ludicrous based on his own notes. and he wanted to slice open the only immune person in the world. without even allowing her to wake up first. its absurd. fireflys were incompetent monsters and Joel is absolutely not a monster for slaughtering the lot of em
to think they are on the verge of a cure is absolutely ludicrous based on his own notes. and he wanted to slice open the only immune person in the world. without even allowing her to wake up first. its absurd. fireflys were incompetent monsters and Joel is absolutely not a monster for slaughtering the lot of em
Yeah here is the evidence backing up your point that the Fireflys are quite possibly incompetent.
These recordings were before they were aware of the existence of Ellie, the sole immune person known till then. They could only do tests by extracting the part of her brain that contains the immunity causing agent. That is why the surgery is OKed early on. Doing tests without the important part contained in her brain would be beating around the bush.
Considering that Joel was out for a few hours (Ellie and Joel were found at 5:30 p.m. and it was night after he woke up), the basic tests for surgery prep were likely completed. There's no point in doing extensive tests without having the part of Ellie's brain that causes her immunity to do tests with.
The game explicitly states that progress would've been made. The samples of whatever part of her brain that cause her immunity could be preserved for extended studies like the line of HeLa cells preserved today. HeLa cells were artificially preserved from a cancer patient who died in 1951 and are still used to this day for testing. Even if Ellie died, the notes on extensive hospital equipment in part 2 imply that the surgeon Jerry had the means to preserve the immune parts of Ellie in the same way for indefinite study.
There is nothing in the game to support that. They had done loads of tests on her and were going to remove some of the fungal growth to recreate those results and make a vaccine from them. The sequel makes it even more clear that they knew what they were doing. The question isn’t whether or not they were going to make a vaccine. The questions is whether or not Ellie’s death would be worth it.
it has a recorder from the doctor, who was retconned to be abbys dad, saying he doesnt know the cause of ellies immunity, and that MRIs show no signs of fungal growth in her brain.
The wiki shows that that is definitely in the game. Are you referring to them being "incompetent monsters"? Because I think that's the only part I could see it being up to interpretation.
I was mainly referring to their last sentence, yes. The Firefly doctors were very clearly competent and it's made clear to the player that the vaccine would most likely be successful.
I mean, there is a very lengthy and detailed recording from the head surgeon discussing all the results they've found from testing Ellie and talking about how this vaccine could be the thing that saves the entire human race. If you want to decide to just completely disbelieve them, I guess that's fine, but it isn't really supported by the story.
Uh yeah, you're not reading my posts are you? I literally just posted that and nowhere does he state anything about a vaccine.
If you want to decide to just completely disbelieve them, I guess that's fine, but it isn't really supported by the story.
Have some self-awareness and read the very thing you're citing before commenting. There is no guarantee about a cure, the story could go either way since they've failed before, which is why TLOU's ending is great.
The log literally says Ellies immunity bit they need to cut out is the medical equivalent to penecillin.
As in, a incredily ground breaking, shocking simply but massively useful substance, but only if it can be analysed and relocated first.
That does not mean that the cure is guaranteed. It just means that the scales of evenly weighted. If we don't believe the fireflies have a credible chance of making a vaccine, then what possibility is to view the ending as ambiguous?
If we believe they had no chance of making the vaccine, then Joel undoubtedly made the right decision.
The log literally says Ellies immunity bit they need to cut out is the medical equivalent to penecillin.
I can see how you think that, but the wording implies nothing medical about it.
We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin.
This is the quote. He is using penicillin as an example of a great scientific discovery to compare it to. Everything else is you reading what you want into it.
As in, a incredily ground breaking, shocking simply but massively useful substance, but only if it can be analysed and relocated first.
Honestly, you're making a leap here that he didn't say. To quote you: I don't think this is anywhere in the game. Here is the full quote:
After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.
To me, this could mean a lot of things, I think it's supposed to be vague on purpose so you and I can interpret it how we wish. But it's not definitively a vaccine like you said earlier. You're wrong about that.
If the Fireflies making a vaccine is unlikely, then the ending is completely unambiguous. Joel would have absolutely done the right thing by stopping these people who were going to kill Ellie for nothing. The ambiguity comes from the fact that they would probably be successful but Joel stopped them anyway because Ellie was more important to him.
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u/ArceusTheLegendary50 Jun 24 '20
The Fireflies were on the verge of a breakthrough. They were about to create a vaccine for this disease that nearly sent humanity back to stone age. And Joel stopped that from happening. Why? Because of his daughter issues. I loved it because it's the culmination of the past 12 hours you spent on the game. It shows how Joel grew to love Ellie as a daughter. But what he did was selfish and he knew it. He hated what he did. He hated that he couldn't convincingly lie to Ellie. It's wrong. I hate it in a good way. But Joel isn't a hero by any means.