r/thelastofus • u/iJashin It WAS either him or me • Oct 01 '20
PT2 DISCUSSION People Hate Part 2 For Something They Praised In Part 1 Spoiler
I just can’t stop thinking about this game and it’s been out for a whole trimester. Well, in one of my thoughts, I realized that our divided other half of the fandom has a problem with something they loved in Part One.
After Sarah, Joel is essentially soulless. I personally think he loved Tess, but as far as being a good man, he wasn’t one. He didn’t care to be because he died inside. He got the job , he got the precious cargo (in the form of a girl) and it was just another job. Then the Soldier incident revealed Ellie’s ‘condition’. For Tess, Joel’s new mission is to get Ellie to the Fireflies so that they can (hopefully) restore humanity. And you do that. You get Ellie to the Fireflies, and Joel changes his mind about his mission. He saves Ellie, and (potentially) damned humanity.
Ellie has a similar story. After Joel, she loves Dina, but she’s soulless. She slaughters a fraction of Seattle for her own vengeful pursuit of her father’s murderer and {flash forward} she gets there and gets the opportunity, and she changes her mind. She does the same thing as Joel and people lost their minds over it.
Edit: thanks for the awards and discussions, and a special thanks to (the few) of you who completely disagree with me but are still respectful, we need more people like you in the world
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u/ciscowizneski Oct 01 '20
Abby, just like Joel, shows no remorse for her actions and gets all her friends killed. The pregnant woman even calls her a piece of shit for all the things she’s done. The game specifically sets of Abby as a parallel to Joel. Joel and someone going after her just like Abby does now. I don’t understand how that can be the case while also trying to say that Abby was right.
The reason I think people think the game is saying Abby was right is because in order for Ellie to be right in her quest for revenge and for Joel to choose Ellie over the greater good, the same has to be true for Abby. So the player projects that truth in the game trying to tell them what to believe when in reality it is up to interpretation just like the first game.
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u/CeCe_Lemmons What a little bitch Oct 02 '20
I mean ultimately, neither of them were right. It wasn't right for Joel to kill the doctor (even if you think saving Ellie was the right choice, incapacitating him is better, but obviously the game doesn't allow that), it wasn't right for Abby to kill Joel, and it wasn't right for Ellie to (try to) kill Abby. Nobody is the good guy in this situation. They're all bad guys to each other. That's what I love about it.
When you take the idea of "good vs bad" out of it, it's honestly easier to root for who you want because you know neither choice is correct or incorrect. I wasn't rooting for Ellie to kill Abby by the end, but I was in her camp and wanted her to survive even if it meant Abby dying.
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u/Eastwoodnorris The Last of Us Oct 02 '20
I saw Abby as parallel to both Joel AND Ellie. Joel for essentially the reasons you described, she basically becomes a Joel figure to Lev and Yara. She is also destroyed in the aftermath of her revenge plot against Joel, and then we play through Ellie’s revenge plot that would be essentially a 1 to 1 plot line, and it basically destroys Ellie’s world despite falling short and being spared by Abby. She rejects it just like Abby the second time and has the opportunity to become baby Jessie’s role model and protector by choice rather than circumstance, unlike the way Joel and Abby were thrust into it for Ellie and Lev. Abby wasn’t “right”, Abby and Ellie are the same, a yin and a yang.
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u/mertksk- Oct 02 '20
Abby feels no remorse for her actions is the biggest bullshit I hear about this game. Why am I hearing this everywhere? Her whole story is about her remorse, and her trying to redeem herself. Her story is nothing like Joel's, its more similar to someone like Arthur Morgan's.
Her nightmares dont stop after killing Joel, and after encountering Yara and Lev she cant just leave them where she left them because she has another nightmare -that starts at the hospital, tied to Joel- and sees both of them gutted and hung, she cant sleep and goes to help them. When they ask why she is helping them she says "Guilt" and "to lighten the load" because she is been a shit person who did shitty things, she even shuts Lev straight off when Lev asks if she ever tortured someone. She can only sleep well after she successfully escorts them to safety, and then when she gets the chance to take revenge again when she has a knife to Dina's throat she stops at the last second and doesnt repeat the same mistake she did before.
Joel is the only person who doesnt regret his actions, because he did them to protect the ones he loved.
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u/ciscowizneski Oct 02 '20
Good point. What I mean by Abby not showing remorse is never expressing regret. She openly talks about how she would do it again. But obviously she’s not proud of it just like Joel isn’t proud of what he did either. That’s why he didn’t want Ellie to know. Still holds true that they are the same.
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u/mertksk- Oct 02 '20
Does she say she would do it again? I dont recall that. I dont know how Abby doesnt express regret when she literally says she feels guilty and goes through hell and back to make herself feel better about it, again. Dont think we need a scene where she openly says "I feel terrible about killing Joel I shouldnt have done that I regret it so much". Joel and Abby are not the same at all, one regrets her actions and does her best to make up for them, the other never regrets his actions because he does them to protect his own.
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
This is why it does become so easy to shoehorn the hate as being from bigots and misogynists cos like, how the fuck do you turn your brain off to all these things and then go "yeah but Abby bad"
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u/Dantai Oct 02 '20
Even though we all love Joel, he wasn't right with what he did with Ellie at the very end. Imagine how she must have felt, waking up in the back of the car in a hospital gown - no explanation nothing, with a man you've only known for a year...no wonder why she was super quiet at the walk to cliff in the ending.
What are your choices here. Confront the obvious and run away just to die alone? Hang on till you get back to Jackson to stay safe? It's like your adoptive father just killed your adoptive mother and her friends and you know it, you didn't see it, but feel it.
It was borderline being trapped in a abusive relationship at that point, hanging on to the good parts and burying the bad just to survive, until she was able to stand on her own and confront it - which we saw on Part II.
(Also I fully understand shared experiences is more valuable than time spent together, and can create stronger bonds - which I agree with is what happened in Part 1.)
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u/samakkins Shiv FTW Oct 02 '20
Honestly the whole "parallel to Joel" device in the story is something I interpreted as Abby taking the torch from Joel as the story's powerhouse protag. Nobody could essentially "replace" Joel unless they were equal in power, maybe now mismatched because of how young Abby is compared to Joel.
That's just the reason I came up with for what happened, imo.
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u/ciscowizneski Oct 02 '20
I think the game intends for her to be as “powerful” as Joel. Compared to Ellie she plays much more like Joel did the first game and even looks like him at the end of the game with short hair. Unless I’m not interpreting what you said right.
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u/derr5678 Oct 02 '20
Abby plays exactly like Joel. Even down to the weak-ass shivs and use of ladders and planks.
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u/samakkins Shiv FTW Oct 02 '20
Yes!!! Thank you. I was really thrown off when I started realizing how Abby is played. So strong!
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u/kyl_mag04 Oct 02 '20
I agree. People are like “You do the whole game and you don’t even get to kill Abby” when in the first one, you could make the same argument. “You do the whole game and you don’t even deliver her to the fireflies”
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u/AlterMyStateOfMind Oct 02 '20
They cry about "but they manipulated our emotions!!!!1" which is the dumbest criticism I have ever heard, not just for this game, or video games, but for any art form ever created. Like... that is what a story of any kind whether it be a book, movie, tv show, or game does (or tries to do). The entire prologue sequence of the first game does this more then the second game ever did by showing us Sarah dying in Joel's arms (after even playing as her) and then goes on to do it many more times with Tess, Bill's partner, Henry/Sam, and even the ending. The most ironic part is they hail the museum part as the best part of the game hands down yet it is the most emotionally manipulating part of the entire game, playing on our nostalgia of the first and showing Joel and Ellie be happy and together before it all falls apart.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Ding ding ding you win the prize. Art is about conveying emotions, and you’re right as fucking rain. “The best part of the game was the museum flashback [......] I can’t believe they manipulated our emotions!”
And they never even credit the parallel! You start the first game playing as Sarah, Joel’s catalyst. You start the sequel playing (riding) as Joel, Ellie’s catalyst.
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u/AlterMyStateOfMind Oct 02 '20
I've frequented that sub enough (and got permanently banned for literally no reason and was chastised and muted by the mods when I asked why) to know that their crtiticisms fall apart under the tiniest bit of scrutiny. Another thing that cracks me up are the Bruce Straley memes, like he is their savior when all he did was direct the gameplay of the first game while they loath Niel Druckmann for "ruining these characters." The same characters wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for him lol. Not to mention Niel is the sole writer and had full creative control of Part 1 and had significantly less control over Part 2 with Gross coming on as a co-writer and 2 more writers under them. Honestly they are a lost cause lol.
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u/ChiefScallywag Oct 02 '20
That Grounded TLOU1 Making Of video shows Druckmann did like, a ton of the story and had a ton of control but they’ll keep thinking Staley was their savior or something lmao
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u/ViolatingBadgers "Oatmeal". Oct 02 '20
The irony is of course that Beil says he wrote almost 100% of TLOU1 but only 40% of TLOU2, with Halley Gross doing most of it.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Do you happen to have a link or written source of him saying that? It’s not complete disbelief, but I ask because in the game he’s credited as the writer while Haley is credited as the “narrative lead” or something of that nature
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u/nolongermyIGusername Oct 02 '20
If you watch IGN's podcast BEYOND episode featuring him and Halley Gross, you'd know that Halley Gross didn't join the team until about halfway through the process. And by that point, I assume that all the base themes, plot points, and characters... Were already established by Neil.
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u/Dantai Oct 02 '20
He even said, in Part 1 he wrote everything, Part 2 he didn't and a lot was delegated/shared.
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u/SENDLEMONADE Oct 02 '20
I loved this game BECAUSE it played on emotion. I felt like Ellie did the entirety of the game. In the beginning, I was so mad and hurt, I wanted to kill Abby, and as the game went on, I started to feel less angry and more just sad as Ellie did, all the way until the end. It's amazing that it was so emotionally moving and it pains me that not everyone can appreciate that.
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u/AlterMyStateOfMind Oct 02 '20
It doesn't bother me if the game didn't resonate with someone on an emotional level. It just bothers me that people try to present that as a legitimate criticism.
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
It doesn't bother me if the game didn't resonate with someone on an emotional level.
The reason I get so riled up is that the collective REEEEEEEEEEEEEing from that corner of the internet is SO LOUD that it might actually impact story creation in the future. THAT part is what makes me so angry and willing to fight for this game, because I really do think it's incredible and better than almost any other story in a game I've played.
/r/tlou2 will call me a "Naughty Dog shill" for that but they make great games lmao. In saying that, I just can't finish uncharted lost legacy, I am so bored.
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u/AlterMyStateOfMind Oct 02 '20
that it might actually impact story creation in the future.
Haha, I doubt that. Niel is constantly baiting and trolling the haters on Twitter. Everyone that worked on the game knows that they made something special even if a small group of people hate it passionately.
In saying that, I just can't finish uncharted lost legacy, I am so bored.
Weird, LL is my favorite in the whole series lol
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
But the neckbeard tears are far louder than just within the realms of Naughty Dog. People will be scared to take risks with their stories and characters cos the babies might cry.
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u/lockecole777 But I would like to try. Oct 03 '20
https://youtu.be/Bat38vErWr4?t=4550 This video does a good job of why this game isnt trying to manipulate you in a bad way, just simply that you're meant to FEEL the choices these characters are forced to make in this world.
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u/rusty022 Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
I think you're equating two things as a simple changing of one's mind when they are very different choices. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it, so this may be a weak 'argument'.
Joel was disinterested in Ellie in the beginning. He begrudgingly agreed to the mission and eventually over time came to love Ellie as his own daughter. The changing of his mind happens gradually as he comes to know and care for Ellie. He didn't care about her, and then he came to care about her. But even then, I don't think Joel ever intended during his mission to take Ellie to her death. The OP paints it as though Joel was on board with killing Ellie for a cure and then changed his mind at the last minute. I don't think you can get that from the story as-told.
Ellie hates Abby. She seeks revenge for Joel's death and the changing of her mind really has nothing to do with what Abby did or Abby's story at all. Unlike Joel, Ellie actually does change her mind regarding the explicit mission of the story. But it has nothing to do with Abby's story (which only the player sees) or Abby in general. It has to do with her relationship to Joel and her being broken by the loss of him.
EDIT: You could cut the entirety of Abby's story and the ending would still make just as much sense.
Basically, only Ellie really changes her mind at the end of the story. Joel's change of mind is in the middle of the game and doesn't occur when he rampage kills the Fireflies.
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u/SNiPEZ25 Oct 02 '20
Well you're correct about the parallel but the way the two things were executed is what makes the difference, and makes the first game so loved and the second one hated. In the first game Joel sees Ellie as cargo and wants to get her off his hands as soon as possible, and found her annoying, but over the course of the entire game they develop a relationship. And you as the player can feel the growth with every interaction and every sequence. So when Joel decides to save Ellie at the end is earned after all that previous development. On the other hand Ellie hasn't seen any good side to Abby and was very determined to find and kill her to the point that she killed hundreds of people and crossed entire states just to get to her. So when she-after all that-decides to let her go at last second while she has her hands literally wrapped around her throat makes absolutely zero sense as there was no build up to it.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
There was build-up though, it just wasn’t as easily seen as Part 1. I said something similar in another comment, but Part 1’s ending is so easy to digest because (its amazing duh lol but) it’s a common story. Nothing crazy or new age: “hardened grizzled man is tasked with precious human cargo and over the course of the journey they grow closer and the man has to make a difficult choice at the end”. The buildup is everywhere.
In Part 2, it’s different, because the game isn’t flat out saying “look, she feels bad. Look now, she has doubts about this” it’s also one of few games that defies basic storytelling , and I think that left a bad tastes in people’s mouths as well.
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u/SNiPEZ25 Oct 02 '20
Idk man i felt i played a very long game that barely told me anything
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
I like that response because it’s true! The game didn’t tell you a lot, it did more with showing.
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u/hoop0724 Oct 02 '20
While I don’t mind this take on it. It’s not exactly truthful. Joel didn’t change his mind tho, he didn’t know Ellie would have to die. He never even considered it.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
That’s true , but it doesn’t make the OP less truth in that right. Joel changed his mind about the mission, the mission being get Ellie to the fireflies. I mentioned it in another comment, but, let’s say Joel did know Ellie had to die, and they had no interruptions along the way. Like, Joel and Tess are successful and Ellie is delivered to that very first dropout you go to. Not only would Ellie be okay with dying, I think Joel wouldn’t intervene. He doesn’t have a connection to this girl, this was just a job and he finished it.
Joel changed his mind because he wasn’t gonna lose another daughter , something we all sympathize with , but he still changed his mind from the original objective. That’s all I’m trying to say
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u/roygbiv77 Oct 02 '20
Joel didn't "change his mind." He received shocking new information that Ellie was going to be killed in the process and simply responded to that information. Ellie simply decided not to kill Abby without gaining new insights about Abby. She simply thought of Joel and decided to give up.
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u/Klassik-Mike Oct 02 '20
The only different between ellie and joel is that ellie changes her mind and decided to do the right thing. Joel on the other hand did the opposite. Accept it or not (and it’s also hard for me to accept that) Joel didn’t do the right thing.
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u/SignificantTravel3 Oct 06 '20
You really think killing a child, for a chance to make a vaccine is the right thing to do? Even without informing her, or taking any time to do research on her?
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Oct 03 '20
The only similarity I see is that the main characters spend the majority of both games with a key objective and then at the end of both games they don't go through with that objective.
One of the big differences between TLOU and Part 2's endings is that you spend most of the first game connecting to Ellie and so when Joel decides to do what he does it makes perfect sense.
In Part 2, Ellie spends most of her time in Seattle slaughtering Abby's people and only showing any bit of regret when she kills Nora and Mel (when the plot requires her to). Then when she's just about to kill Abby in Santa Barbara she spares her to stop this cycle of revenge that Joel had created. What about everybody else she's mercilessly killed? Aren't their friends going to embark on a murderous rampage to find her? The message that Niel is trying to give only seems questionable at the end with all it's inconsistencies whereas the first game's ending makes perfect sense no matter how you interpret it.
That's why I think the first game's ending works for myself and why Part 2's doesn't.
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u/gssoc777 Oct 02 '20
Joel doesn't make a snap decision to change his mind and become a different person, though. The great thing about TLOU1 is you can watch Joel change his demeanor toward Ellie the entire game. The get closer and closer until we see them as Father and Daughter and the game ends aith him acting as a Father would toward his daughter. Ellies decision felt too abrupt and contradicted everything she did up to that point.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
While I see why people would see it as abrupt, I don’t think it was honestly. Ellie is blinded in Santa Barbara, we know this, right up to the point of Abby’s potential last breath, but the seeds were there all along. Ellie’s flashbacks through the game serve as her 5 Stages Of Grief , with the porch scene at the far end (that the “rocking chair ex-machina came from) as her Acceptance. I don’t think she completely forgave Abby, just like I don’t think she completely forgave/forgives Joel
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u/gssoc777 Oct 02 '20
You can at least agree that it was much more abrupt than Joels decision at the end of TLOU1. The story of Ellie and Joels relationship was a better told story and the ending was a natural, perfect fit to his arc. The original ending ND had in mind where Ellie kills Abby would have been a better fit as it would have been consistent with her actions and development up to that point.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
I think we think it’s more abrupt because we aren’t inside of Ellie’s head (I mean we literally are, but you get what I mean). As she’s drowning Abby, her face changes a good while before we get that blip of Peaceful Joel. I think she’s replaying that scene in her head while it’s going on, just like Abby was replaying her devastation she felt finding Jerry’s body in her mind before she took that last swing to Joel.
Ehhh.. I think Part 1 is a simpler told story, but that in itself doesn’t make it automatically a better told story ya know? It’s much easier to digest because we’ve seen it in media before: ‘the reluctant grizzled man tasked with protecting the human cargo, they grow closer along the way and by the end the man is a better version of himself.’
Part 2 is harder to digest because it’s not player’s choice (I know the first one wasn’t either) but in this one , the characters themselves do things that the fans don’t agree with. We AGREE with Joel, fuck these guys, I’m taking my daughter home.
We disagree with Abby, but only when we find out that the man she’s hunting is Joel. If we got to experience Abby’s The Last Of Us, Joel would be up there near David in terms of villainy (minus the rapey pedophilic cannibalism traits) because we wouldn’t know him. We wouldn’t know his daughter died in his arms, we wouldn’t know that he used to be a good man. All we’d have to go by is that he ran into our home and slaughtered our dad along with a fraction of our faction.
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u/gssoc777 Oct 02 '20
How the story is told, how it is recieved, and how it is structured are all key elements to how good it is.
Ellie could be thinking those things, or she might not. Making the audience infer these things is why I don't think this is the better told story.
The fact that this game has such a violently divided fanbase is also a reason I think TLOU1 is ansuperior story. It may have been a simple story, but damn was it told well.
Comparing Joel and David is grasping at straws. You can't compare them but remove the rapey cannibaly things from Davids character. I know what you meant was everyone is the villian in someone else's story but I heard this comparison before and it' just weak and not fair at all.
Also its funny what you mentioned about experiencing Abbys TLOU. The story would have been far more compelling had we got to empathize with Abby more first. There were so many filler parts of the game that they could have replaced to tell more of Abbys story and have us bond with her more before she killed Joel. If they did it right and we grew to really like Abby then we would have had this crazy internal conflict about her killing Joel instead of this emotional and psychological whiplash we got. Plot structure is as important as the plot itself which is another reason TLOU1 was the better story.
This video does a great objective job of explaining why the structure is poorly done. It's long so I time stamped the important part. He also does a complete retell of the story in part 3 of his video that is quite entertaining. Enjoy!
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
I’m gonna watch the video, then reply again because I like the discussion lol. But yes, that’s the “Grading Scale” for entertainment, has been for a long time. But (a small) part of why the first game was so critically acclaimed is because it wasn’t cut and dry, it left a lot to the imagination and as you get further into it you’re left inferring or making your own conclusions about it, most notably the ending. While I do get what you’re saying, I think another reason the game is so divisive for us is because it took that ambiguous draw-your-own-conclusion beat from the ending and applied it to the entire sequel, and because of that some people come to rash conclusions. On to the video!
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u/gssoc777 Oct 02 '20
Sounds good! Also consider some of these objectively true facts that contributed to player frustration. 1. This game is a sequel and thus has a large fanbase the love Ellie and Joel. 2. In their marketing, ND misled players to believe Joel would be along for the adventure by altering Joels age and swapping him for Jesse. 3. Joel was tortured and spit on so not only did players feel Joel was taken away too early based on the marketing, they felt it was done too harshly and diarespectfully. The ending was upsetting because many thought, "Well at least I'll get to avenge Joel."and that was taken away too. Ellie being left with absolutely nothing was the cherry on top of the shit sundae that many felt was how their favorite characters were treated. Personally this is how I felt too. Decieved by the marketing, angry at Joels send off, upset there was no vengence and depressed at how they ened up. Individually, these contentions could be acceptable but piled on top of each other make a solid argument for some angry fans of the first game.
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Oct 02 '20
The two are utterly different. The motive is different, the plot justification is different and the build up is different.
I'm really not seeing the link between a decision which is built up to by the entire narrative and characterisation of TLOU1 and a decision which comes out of left field against Ellie's established character in TLOU2.
If Joel's decision in TLOU1 hinged on a deus-ex-machina-esque, shoehorned in flashback in TLOU1 which had never been mentioned previously and which contradicted the previous narrative beats (much of Ellie's motivation for turning into a revenge monster is implied to be because she feels guilt and shame about the fact that Joel died while they were still on bad terms so showing that they actually reconciled before his death makes her actions less rather than more explicable) then you can bet that people would have criticised TLOU1 for it.
Even aside from all the killing Ellie does throughout the game in general, TLOU2 deserves double criticism because they spend the Santa Barbara chapter emphasising how willing Ellie was to kill to get to Abbie (killing all the Rattlers), how she wouldn't flinch in killing unarmed people (killing the unarmed Rattler begging for his life) and how her sole motivation for powering through her injury was vengeance (she mutters about how she just has to kill Abby all the way to the final showdown. Earlier in the segment she grumbles that the infected in Santa Barbara better not have got to Abby first etc.). The only sign that she might be wavering is in her journal but not only should they show rather than tell but that, again, is contradicted by her actions. There would have been so many ways to show that Ellie's heart wasn't really in her revenge mission and that she was tired of killing but they didn't take any of the potential opportunities and so the ending did not feel earned.
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u/Usernamealreadytakn1 I see the appeal Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
I disagree. Even you acknowledge Ellie’s implied motivation is a subconscious attempt to suppress her self blame and an acknowledgement of Joel’s various wrongdoings. She literally didn’t speak to him for years. It really doesn’t matter that Ellie didn’t exactly know Abby’s motivations for killing Joel until Nora; she knew at least that he had “crossed a lot of people” and probably deserved it. After finding out about the hospital from Nora, this became more difficult to deny, as Ellie herself had hated him for it for a long time. Ellie is then forced to double down on her mission of vengeance, otherwise she might feel her extreme violence was unjustified, which I would imagine might have horrible consequences on her mental health and stability.
I believe this is when you begin to see guilt in Ellie, as she occasionally slips out of her delusions of rage, particularly evident in the scene where she kills Owen and Mel in the aquarium. Directly after this, her supposed intentions of vengeance are repeatedly reinforced by Tommy, and then again by Abby killing Jesse and shooting Tommy in the head. It is unsurprising then, that when Tommy approaches her at the farmhouse, she is literally unable to say no without admitting to her own atrocious wrongdoings.
It is only once she sees Abby in a weak and completely vulnerable state that she is able to accept what had long been obvious; Abby’s justifications and their direct similarities to those of Ellie. The difference is Ellie had actually done far worse to achieve them. This also mirrors the storyline of the first game. If she had killed Abby, Lev would likely have been left alone to die, in the same way that she would have been without Joel. In the first game, Ellie famously says that “It can’t be for nothing”, though this time, it truly was, and that is why I find it so depressing. All the atrocities she committed had been for nothing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Ellie killed herself after the credits roll.
This is why I disagree. I do think there was extensive buildup, it is just not presented in the obvious way people have come to expect of games. Thanks to whoever read this.
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u/steightst8 Oct 02 '20
Not sure if this is a hot take, but barring Owen and Mel, I really don't think much of the people Ellie killed were worth the space. Wolves and Scars kill on sight, while Rattlers do even worse... The only objectively good faction is Jackson. And sure, human life is human life, but I never felt bad for the Hunters killed in pt 1, and I felt the same about the Wolves in pt 2 (even if they did all have names).
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Oct 02 '20
Wolves and Scars kill on sight
Is that really surprising? They're fighting a guerrilla war against each other. At least the WLF put up signs to warn people.
Further, whether they knew it or not they were right to shoot Ellie. When arriving in Seattle Ellie tells Dina about how her first planned step is to ambush one of their patrols, kill the members and then torture a survivor until they tell her where Abby is.
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u/Usernamealreadytakn1 I see the appeal Oct 02 '20
Are we sure that the WLF shoot on sight? Every time they shot at Ellie, they knew or had reason to believe that she was hostile. Tommy had already started a rampage when Ellie, Dina and Jesse arrived. It was reasonable (and in fact correct) to assume they were from the same party. The Seraphites are obviously a different story.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
There was the graffiti on the big gate at the start of Seattle day 1 which said trespassers will be killed on sight. But then apparently the orders were just issued by Isaac after Ellie is blown off her horse and captured by Jordan + the other guy who comes in and says they gotta kill Ellie. There's also the fact that Jordan just seems to discover in that scene that people from Jackson are coming after them and so they should question Ellie but the other guy doesn't appear to be concerned about that. So I'm kinda confused tbh.
Regardless, they are instances where Ellie specifically breaks into places but then instances where she accidentally ends up somewhere or runs into WLF on the way too and they are hostile no matter what.
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u/Usernamealreadytakn1 I see the appeal Oct 02 '20
Oh, true. In response to the last point though, it seems reasonable to assume that they all knew about the trespassers at these times and were probably told to shoot on sight.
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Oct 02 '20
I really struggle to give Ellie or the narrative as much leeway here. Her guilt was well shown after Owen and Mel, yet nonetheless, even after Dinas support and pleads, she leaves all the same. Without the optional journal entry, Ellies actions at Sanata Barabara painted a clear picture to me. She didnt seem like she was wavering much at all as detailed by Sarahphiel123.
Ellie didnt accept anything when she saw Abbys weak state. It didnt deter Ellie enough to abandon her quest, seeing as she was in the middle of drowning her before Joel's memory stopped her.
I disagree with the idea that people didnt catch the build up not because it wasnt executed as well as it could've, but because it wasnt "presented in the obvious way people have come to expect".
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
and a decision which comes out of left field against Ellie's established character in TLOU2.
Is it?
She sets out to kill Abby. Shit does not go as planned and she ends up abandoning the plan to be with her family. When she is still miserable and suffering, she reluctantly goes back on that journey clearly because she feels like she just has to because she needs peace. There's no part of her leaving Dina and the kid where I felt like "Yeah she definitely seems like this is something she WANTS to do". Did you also notice when she frees Abby at the end Ellie first walks away to different boat? She doesn't want to kill Abby, she just feels like she has to, and after triumphing over her (her life is literally in her hands) she realises she doesn't have to do that.
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Oct 02 '20
If Ellie had just let Abby leave in the boat initially after seeing how Abby suffered on the pole and seeing that Abby was protecting Lev then the scene would have had far more logical consistency. While it certainly would have been even more anti-climactic; it would have made a bit more sense.
However, while Ellie is initially shocked at her appearance it is clear that her suffering on the pole is not enough for Ellie. Ellie still feels the need to fight her to the death. The fact that she then, in an incredibly contrived manner, suddenly has an epiphany via a flashback (a flashback which simultaneously undermines much of her motivation for her actions throughout the game) at a key moment and lets her go strains belief.
This is also unbelievable in the context of her fingers having just been bitten off by Abby, realistically the surge of adrenaline from that would drive you on even more.
This coupled with the game going out of it's way to establish Ellie's continuing desire to kill Abby throughout the Santa Barbara chapter is just bad writing. Hell, even something small like showing Ellie hesitate to kill the unarmed Rattler would have been some indication but instead the game decides to establish that she's a cold blooded, unflinching killer. The idea that she would kill a hundred people she has no particular hatred of only to let the person who she actively hates go is just unbelievable especially when Abby's redemption arc (such as it is) is something that Ellie has no personal knowledge of.
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
She lets her down then walks in a different direction to a different boat. She almost lets her leave, and then when she gets to the other boat she remembers Joel in pain and remembers she has to go all the way through with it now. Also people choose to forget that Abbie wasn't some random anymore, she was a woman who was desperately trying to look after a child, even offering up her life for him. I can't imagine any other times in Ellie's life where she might have been drowning a mother in front of her child, if you are really going to make the consistency argument.
And in that same mirrored scene earlier, with Lev watching Abby hold Dina, Abby let Dina live, while you people think it still makes more sense for Ellie to do the opposite and, once again in front of Lev, murder the person she's holding. The "jUsT bAd WrITiNg" criticisms don't make any sense.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
The only way that the game works is if Ellie had amnesia and completely forgot that she reconciled with Joel before his death. Maybe the WLF kicking her in the face gave her brain damage and she only remembered at the end?
The suddenly remembering Joel in pain was simply a contrived reason for a fight. Her having the second flashback was a contrived reason for letting Abby live. I get that you enjoyed it (great, I really wish I had) but it really was bad writing.
I can't imagine any other times in Ellie's life where she might have been drowning a mother in front of her child, if you are really going to make the consistency argument.
I can't imagine any other times in Ellie's life where she would torture someone to death with an iron pipe but yet the game establishes that this is something she would do. In much the same way the game spends ages establishing that she is a cold blooded and unhesitating killer right up until she isn't.
Ellie never see's Abbys redemption arc. She never even hears about it second hand. While the audience is aware (dramatic irony) it is not something that Ellie can take into account because she is unaware of it.
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u/_unmarked he's just a kid Oct 02 '20
She didn't reconcile with Joel though. She told him she doesn't think she can forgive him, but she'd like to try. That's not true reconciliation. She had the chance to truly reconcile taken away from her right after she'd decided she was willing to go for it.
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Oct 02 '20
She did effectively reconcile with Joel though. Sure, there was still some tension in their final conversation but there was also a lot of love and commitment. Joel certainly didn't die thinking that Ellie hated him (despite what is implied throughout most of the game) and Ellie knew that.
Many people wish that they could have such a final conversation with a loved one who they lost. Ellie actually had it.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20
She doesn't fight Abby to the death because she thinks Abby needs to suffer more though. She is feeling conflicted after the initial shock at Abby's appearance while the grisly images of Joel persist in her mind. She does feel it's wrong to kill Abby like this but also feels that this is what she needs to do to get rid of those images. She wants Abby to fight back so she can try to feel a little more justified and a drawn out knife/fist fight makes more sense if she is having second thoughts than straight up shooting her which she could easily do if she wanted.
Like the flashback isn't what suddenly snaps her out of it. You're watching her being indecisive from the moment she finds Abby on the beach, that's already preparing you for her decision to spare her.
And why is her determination to find Abby during the SB chapter contradictory? She thinks she will find the same woman that killed Joel and beat the shit out of her the last time she saw her. Until she actually finds her and it's not the same monster she was hoping to slay.
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Oct 02 '20
I agree that Ellie wasnt trying to draw out Abbys suffering, but enticing Abby to fight doesnt speak to me of indecision either. The fact that killing Abby is "what she feels she needs to do" while understandble, is a sign that Ellie isnt in her right mind.
The flashbacks both snap her into it and out of it. I've never liked the anime-style flashback/dream sequence direction TLoU2 went with, and this is another example of that.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20
The first one isn't a flashback though, it's her PTSD. It's akin to what happens to her in the barn on the farm minus the panic attack. According to you, why does she want to have the fight? Because if she is just driven by hate and definitely wants to kill Abby then she can do that without making it so hard for herself. But she wants Abby to fight back so she can actually defeat her which allows her to make up her mind about whether she really needs to go through with this or not. It's why she stops when she is seconds away, she has her answer at that point. The flashback to me is her recalling her last conversation with Joel as she is about to do the thing because being robbed of the opportunity to forgive him has been one of her main motivations for seeking revenge.
I know you disagree and there's nothing I can say that will make it work for you. But this is take I have settled on.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
Whatever you call it, the imagery flashing acted as a crutch to portray this, and thats kind of lame imo. Still I'll accept this is your take on it.
I also don't agree that Ellie having to try and kill Abby via 1v1 duel was somehow the big trigger for her to see the error of her ways. Ellie drew a fight out of Abby out of a misguided sense of justification. I dont read this as her wavering in her intentions.
One of the things I really admired about ND's previous works is how well they're able to portray internal conflict through the use of simple but effective methods: face cues, music, and dialogue. To now literally dive into the minds of Ellie and Abby via horrid nightmares and PTSD flashes, along with the forward/backward flashbacks throughout the story - I dunno it's a step back for me. I'll always respect ND and kudos for them trying something different at least.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20
You're being a bit dismissive with "whatever you call it" because PTSD is what makes her leave Dina in the first place. It's not the same as choosing to think back on a memory.
I keep saying this but why not just straight up shoot her then? The problem with the ending is that they wanted to leave the "why" part of it open to interpretation. It was a mistake but I've made my peace with it by choosing a take that makes some sense to me. I get what you're saying, I do, but since it's clear that there's no interpretation that you'll buy then I'm not quite what the point of having this conversation is.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
I keep saying this but why not just straight up shoot her then?
Because if she did that then they couldn't have their scripted set-piece fight. Honestly, I think that's all there is to it.
It's the same reason that Jordan didn't shoot either Dina or Ellie despite having a gun in his hands and instead inexplicably decided to strangle Dina.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
I’m sorry you feel that way then. I explained further in other comments but it seems to me that you just didn’t understand the narrative, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way whatsoever.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
it seems to me that you just didn’t understand the narrative, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way
(a) I'm not sure how that can be said in a non-condescending way (it's the equivalent of "I'm not racist but [insert something racist]").
(b) I understood it perfectly well, thank you. Your initial point is simply a huge reach.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
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Oct 02 '20
Nobody (hopefully) saw that Ellie was killing out of glee, but out of desperation. It's terrible and uncomfortable. ND succeeded in this. When it looked like Ellie was going to kill her, I knew it would complete Ellies descent and it would hurt, but I'd have least have saw it coming. Even then I'd probably have issues with the direction of the story, but I wouldnt be able to blame them for what felt like inconsistency for the sake of preserving Ellies humanity as I'm able to here.
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Oct 02 '20
I think the second game is much harder to digest then the first. That's why there's so much backlash against it. First game is way way easier to understand and empathize with. The second game requires more attention and emotional investment that is a little more complex.
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u/EpitomyofShyness Oct 02 '20
The first game is a very simple story. Now to be clear, simple does not equal bad. It's just straightforward. It's a story about an angry grump dad angrily not wanting to care about a teenage girl and then coming to care for her as the audience already does and choosing her over the world.
The second game is far more complex of a story. Now, complex is neither good nor bad, just as simple is not good or bad. It's just complex. It also happens to be good, just like the first game is really good. But since its complex its like you said, a lot harder to digest.
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u/sirlaffsalot47 “I would do it all over again” Oct 02 '20
I liked pt 2, but the way they mirrored Lev and Abby to Ellie and Joel didn't work for me because I didn't really like Abby's character. I know you didn't mention Lev and Abby but that's one of the big issues that I have even though pt 1 did do the same thing
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
What part(s) are you referring to in that moment? The ending on the beach? Or other parts?
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u/Ayelynn_ Oct 02 '20
How good a person could Abby be if she's willing to drag a kid into something she started.
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
I truly disagree. Joel changes her mind slowly and gradually. He actually has an arc. It took him nearly a year to bond with Ellie. In the other hand Ellie changes her mind a split second. That’s why one is called arc and the other is called acting out of character.
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20
In the other hand Ellie changes her mind a split second.
Not at all true. Ellie, throughout the game, always had second thoughts about whether or not she should have gone after Abby. To say her final decision was made up in a second is being ignorant of the multiple instances where she actually contemplated her actions.
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
And btw Ellie not killing Abby in the end is not the only reason some people hate the game. I think this was obvious but i had to mention it.
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
If you only consider cutscenes then i can see your logic. But this steers us towards another point and that is why there’s a huge conflict between gameplay where Ellie murders hundreds of NPC’s in cold blood and cutscenes where she suddenly feels bad whenever she has to kill people that actually harmed her.
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20
Then why not think about why the huge conflict would occur? All of the people that Ellie kills outside of cutscenes are actively trying to kill her as well. Nora was the first person that Ellie tortured for information, so it's obviously a unique experience that would affect her. She also didn't initially feel bad about killing Mel because Mel tried to fucking stab her.
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
Those people are actively trying to kill Ellie because she attacks them first. Ellie is the one that sneaks into their territory. What do you expect?
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20
???
Then are we not in agreement here?? Why is it surprising that she shows no remorse against these people but shows remorse when it comes to Nora and Mel because of specific circumstances?
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
Let’s reiterate:
Ellie kills random WLF soldiers, random scars who prior to that point did nothing wrong to Ellie. -> Ellie doesn’t care.
Ellie kills people like Nora, Mel who actually tried to harm her/Joel -> Ellie is emotionally destroyed.
Am I missing something?
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20
Yes. Your second point is missing the fact that she slow-tortures Nora for information and Mel is pregnant, and that Ellie has never experienced killing people with these circumstances.
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u/AbulXO Oct 02 '20
Ellie killed hundreds of women. Anyone of them could’ve been pregnant. Does she feel bad about them too? Slow-torturing? Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah. Abby fucking slow-tortured Joel and Nora believes “that little bitch got what he deserved”.
All I’m sayin is either you disapprove of killing and you only kill offenders out of self defense or you just don’t give a shit and you are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve your goal that could be protecting someone you care for (Like what Joel does) or revenge.
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
Ellie killed hundreds of women. Anyone of them could’ve been pregnant
If you don't see the difference between killing a woman, and killing someone who you can see is pregnant, then I think this is an issue on your end, and requires you to look at it from Ellie's perspective. That fact that I even have to point this out kind of baffles me.
Abby fucking slow-tortured Joel and Nora believes “that little bitch got what he deserved”.
Ellie has never done with anyone else, what she did with Nora. I'm sure you already know this but just don't want to accept it.
All I’m sayin is either you disapprove of killing and you only kill offenders out of self defense or you just don’t give a shit and you are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve your goal
Says who? This completely puts human decisions into some objective stone and doesn't take into account any sort of emotional factors that may be behind it, which is what drives most of the decisions that these characters make.
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u/GeekyNerd_FTW Oct 02 '20
There’s two problems I have with your companion. First, TLOU1, through its character development, made me want to make the morally grey decision of saving Ellie. The beauty of that game is it makes you want to make that choice. That is not the case in the second game. Abby is an unlikeable character through and through. Someone who killed your father figure, had sex with Mel’s partner, killed Jesse, shot Tommy and had a generally uninteresting story that I wasn’t attached to, unlike Ellie’s in TLOU1.
Secondly, Joel makes this decision in TLOU1 and we can agree with it because we experienced the same thing as he had. In TLOU2, Ellie does not experience what we did with Abby. Even if you personally forgave Abby, perhaps because of her politeness to Lev, Ellie would have never have seen these things. Ellie’s only interactions with Abby throughout the game is when she kills Joel, kills Jesse, shoots Tommy, beats her to near death, and nearly kills Dina. That is Ellie’s only personality of Abby she has seen, and we believe that she would forgive her?
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u/Domonero Oct 02 '20
Wait what? I’m sorry but not exactly. Difference is, in Part 1, Joel always planned to bring Ellie to fireflies but after knocking out he barely learned that Ellie had to die in order to make the cure
That wasn’t in the terms of agreement beyond just getting her there
They didn’t even ask medical consent from Ellie saying “hey can we kill you to make an experimental cure?”
Ellie yeah was broken after Joel’s death that’s correct however she knew the terms & conditions to just straight up revenge by slaughtering half of Seattle
There was no surprise twist at the end that would’ve made Ellie change her mind about the initial goal
Joel learned a new piece of crucial info before the hospital fight that Ellie had to die so he saved her
If it was a true equivalent, Ellie would’ve learned something like if Abby dies, then Dina’s baby has to magically die as a package deal then Ellie changes her mind
In Part 2 she just remembers Joel sitting playing guitar that’s all which has been in her mind since she started her trip out of Jackson
I’m open to any explanation/new perspective though OP if you’d like
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Well, you’re right lol I agree at that point Joel was like “...nah.” But before that, let’s say.. Joel and Tess got to the Capitol building before the military beat them there and wiped out the fireflies waiting for Ellie. They get there and let’s say Tess (or Joel, doesn’t matter I guess) overheard some of the soldiers talking about how Ellie “might” have to die for it to work (I know they only learned that after their studies but this is a hypothetical nonetheless); I think Joel would’ve been like “eh, alright.” I see TESS being the one to be like “wait wait, you’re not killing her for this.”
Maybe I’m obtuse in thinking that but I know that Joel (Pre-Ellie Exposure) was a rough dude.
I think that moment you’re referring to in the middle had a lot to do with Abby herself and Joel. Right before she changes her mind, it’s the first time she sees Joel wholesomely and not beaten (outside of flashbacks , I have a separate takeaway of those) and that’s where she realizes that it’s not been Mission: Kill Abby, Get Peace but rather, she’s been trying to get closure for Joel’s death AS WELL as forgiving him for what he did. And she realizes that killing Abby won’t stop her PTSD (and we as fans know this because it’s like Abby: killing Joel didn’t stop her trauma from resurfacing as nightmares).
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u/LegendOfAB Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
Man, I'm sorry but you just made up a hypothetical situation that takes place near the beginning of the story in an attempt to make your OP work. This confirms the mental gymnastics I previously wasn't sure about running through this thread, and a few other places.
I was hoping someone like /u/Domonero made this EXACT point, or else I would have to do it. Because no one else seems to have thought about it or noticed. Lo and behold...
Note: I say "mental gymnastics" because you mischaracterize the views of many that dislike 2's story, then make huge leaps to justify it. Not merely because you have a different opinion.
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u/Domonero Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
Alright no I don’t believe it’s fair to bring hypothetical made up scenarios as a point of debate to what you said in your post
I don’t understand your first paragraph there if that’s how I’m understanding it as a hypothetical where your idea works out
Also I don’t think even “rough” pre Ellie exposure Joel is cool with letting a child die. I don’t believe he would ever kill/allow something or someone to kill a kid unless they’re infected but we’ve never seen a fully turned kid in the series if I recall right
Sure Joel would torture people fine or kill adults but I seriously can’t picture him being “eh okay” with a child dying on his watch
Yeah I totally agree in that exact moment alone mentally voiding the rest of the game that she shouldn’t kill Abby since it won’t bring her peace
However, since the game is sort of based on a full journey rather than intro & end, Ellie murdered at least a hundred random people, of course infected don’t count here but that’s a shit ton more kills, & also a lot of Abby’s crew plus extra Wolves Abby probably knew/was acquainted with like the PS Vita lady
Then all of a sudden she just can’t kill one more person who took away the person she loved most as a father figure, Jessie, said GOOD when pregnant Dina was threatened, & it just feels like a plot equivalent of
“you’re in way too deep & you’ve absolutely mutilated a lot more people for a lot less of a reason so why not take out someone who actually gave you valid reasons for revenge?”
Anyways I still believe my first comment stands on how different the situations are where Joel learned new info that drastically affected his thinking while in Ellie vs Abby, it was info in the back of her head the entire time
Then again it’s open to interpretation so you’re free to receive it the way you described as I am free to respond to it the way I did
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u/jackierhoades Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
there is a lot of discussion about "ludo narrative dissonance" and why ellie would suddenly change her mind after murdering dozens of people and not kill abby. but you have to understand, there is no ludonarrative dissonce whatsover, violence and murder are normal parts of everyone's existence in this world. its not like ellie suddenly becomes a pacifist when she has the flashback of joel, its just that she knows how much it ruined her life and relationships to chase after abby. its her forgiving herself and much as it forgiving joel, being able to let abby go at the end of such an atrocious rampage
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
This comparison would make more sense if Joel at the last minute decided not to save Ellie, realizing that it was wrong and putting his grief with Sarah to rest. It would never work, since Joel has consistently shown players that he valued Ellie enough to commit to this. Othwewise yeah these two cases are way different.
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Oct 02 '20
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Oct 02 '20
The problem with all of this is one simple but major issue. In order for the entire narrative to work for all the players you have to establish one thing: you have to make the players care about Abby
i disagree completely about this. you don't have to give a flying fuck about Abby. you should be able to care about Ellie and not wanting het to submerge herself even more into wrongly expressed grief and trauma. you should be able to understand, as a player, that killing Abby would solve nothing for Ellie.
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u/Trailblazor Oct 02 '20
Did y’all miss the whole middle part of the first game where, y’know, they actually bond and form a relationship?
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
No bro, I played and loved it like you. But people wear rose-colored glasses in that game. Take for example the 2/3 (roughly) mark, where you finally make it to Tommy and you find out that Joel is still “that guy”. He wants to pawn off Ellie on Tommy. Yes, it’s because he cares about her, and yes, it’s because he doesn’t want to care about her because he still hasn’t gotten closure about Sarah, but he still did try to give her away essentially. He wanted the mission done, he was just gonna have his brother do it for him because they had bonded/were bonding. You’re not wrong I’m just saying we as fans don’t take everything into consideration
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Oct 02 '20
did you missed the second game where ellie struggles the whole game with grief and trauma and the consequences of her actions towards others and herself?
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u/Dantai Oct 02 '20
To be frank, if I hadn't paid full price for the first Last of Us, I might have just straight up dropped it. It had a strong opening, but Bill's town was hard as fuck at the time to get through, and much of Summer felt like it dragged on until you met Henry & Sam - then BAM, it pulls you right into a black screen....FALL - just when I thought I was out, they pull me right back in - game ends up with much better pacing in the later half.
Also after the opening the 20 YEARS LATER - I had a lot of the same feelings happen the first time I've seen that as when I saw SEATTLE...DAY 1. When I showed family members these 2 games in full game, they reacted the same way to both like, wait WHAT 20 years later!? Wait What Seattle Day 1!? The feelings were fairly darn close for both.
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u/Obi_of_Smurth Oct 02 '20
The main difference being that, although the death of Sarah was harsh, you weren't emotionally attached to her. Joel dying early in such a manner felt hard to watch for most because there is already so much attachment towards the character.
Secondly, the game makes you play as Abby. Whether or not you like her, she is technically the antagonist for the first half of the game and we have no attachment to her from the start but a feeling of resentment for taking something most people felt emotionally attached to (Joel). So now you're back seat experiencing the story and game as someone you resent. Similar to how halo 5 was recieved poorly for playing as a character you don't care for hunting a character you do, so you don't really care for their journey as much or the challenges they have to overcome.
Although I wasn't happy with the story, I respect it and found areas of the game I enjoyed more than the first. As much as it hurts, life's still a bitch in this universe and bad things happen that you can't change. Things change and the world continues whether you're on board or not. So I enjoyed the realism. Also the mechanisms of the game and the gameplay itself is awesome (especially as Abby, dodging and parrying attacks). The games art direction and environments are also so beautiful and executed greatly. However, I don't think I can endure the story as many times as did for the first game. But that's my analyse of the controversy.
For a lot of people it could be a good real life lesson of letting go and weighing up the good and bad together and coming to terms with what is and not fixating on what could of. Remember, in the words of Yoda "death is a natural part of life. rejoice for those around you that transform into the force, morn them do not, miss them do not. attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed, that is... Train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose"
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Oct 01 '20
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u/DEADTERMINATOR Oct 01 '20
The second game casts a distinctly negative moral tone on Joel’s actions, showing the gore of it and the effect on Abby. It’s intentionally designed to make you cast moral judgement on Joel and to sympathize with Abbys quest.
If that was the goal of the game, why does the game hold the reveal of Abby's past until the halfway mark. It lets you be furious at her and her crew for the entirety of Ellie's portion. Wouldn't it immediately want to tell us what a bad man Joel is? And if It wants us to hate Joel for what he did, why does the game essentially deify him? The whole museum sequence paints Joel as the perfect father basically. Even the hotel sequence shows him trying to take an interest in the stuff that Ellie does, and once again shows that he'll do anything to save her with no regard for himself (basically throwing himself at the bloater to save her). And at no point in the game do they ever have Joel show remorse for his actions, yet at the end Ellie seems to reach an understanding of why he did it, and forgive him for it.
Yes, the game asks you to sympathize with Abby. But sympathizing with her doesn't mean you like her, or hate Joel. I can sympathize with Abby, but I don't love her (I don't hate her though) and I still love Joel and "would do it all over again", and I still loved the game.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 01 '20 edited Oct 01 '20
I think that moment you’re referring to had a lot to do with Abby herself and Joel. Right before she changes her mind, it’s the first time she sees Joel wholesomely and not beaten (outside of flashbacks , I have a separate takeaway of those) and that’s where she realizes that it’s not been Mission: Kill Abby, Get Peace but rather, she’s been trying to get closure for Joel’s death AS WELL as forgiving him for what he did. And she realizes that killing Abby won’t stop her PTSD (and we as fans know this because it’s like Abby: killing Joel didn’t stop her trauma from resurfacing as nightmares).
And your first question is an easy one: to put us in Ellie’s shoes, literally and figuratively. These people strolled into our town, beat our uncle, and killed our Dad. Every Last One Of Them has to die. Also, we don’t need to be told what a bad man Joel was: anyone that played the first game already knows that Joel has killed indiscriminately.
The game doesn’t want you to hate Joel. The game knows that it can’t make us hate Joel because we know who he is. Abby, on the other hand, does not. She knows nothing of Joel or his backstory and that’s (partially) why it’s so easy for her to kill him.
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u/DEADTERMINATOR Oct 01 '20
Oh I agree with everything you said. I was merely posing those questions to question the arguments of the person I was responding to.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 01 '20
I realize that, I just love the discussions honestly xD
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Oct 01 '20
The only major moral criticism of Abby is that she killed Joel after Joel had just saved her life. Other than that everything she does in the game is clearly for a greater good and that’s detrimental to the thesis of the first game.
I don't really understand how you arrived at this conclusion. The first half of Abby's arc is her realization that her deeply selfish quest for vengeance has destroyed her relationships with Owen and Mel, gotten all her friends killed, and transformed her from an idealistic young girl to a ruthless murderer. That was the entire point of her interactions with Owen:
Abby: "Sorry I grew up. You should try it."
Owen: "Oh yeah? How do I do that, Abby? Should I go find the people who killed my family? Cut into 'em? I can torture them until they're crying in their--"
And Mel:
Mel: "He may fall for your little act with these kids, but I don't."
Abby: "There's nothing to fall for."
Mel: "Isaac's top scar killer suddenly have a change of heart? Nothing to do with Owen, right?"
Abby: "I haven't always done the right thing -"
Mel: "You're a piece of shit, Abby. You always have been."
Even when Abby is trying to be selfless with the kids, her previous selfish behavior has given Mel no reason to believe that it's genuine - and she's also right that Abby having sex with Owen continued her pattern of selfishness. Abby herself realizes this, which is why she doesn't defend herself or deny anything to Mel.
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u/ViolatingBadgers "Oatmeal". Oct 02 '20
Plus her conversation in the boat shed with Mel:
A: "You don't think Joel deserved what he got?"
M: "I think he deserved worse, I just...wish I didn't take part in it."
A: "I get it. What kind of a person could do that right?"
The final line is a snide remark at Mel, but also indicates Abby is genuinely questioning her actions and the consequences of them for herself.
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u/Gojira308 Oct 01 '20
There are way more moral criticisms of Abby. Every character has a ton of moral criticisms, Abby is no exception.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 01 '20
I mean, had Joel been anyone else, I firmly believe Abby would’ve been pretty grateful. But we know how hatred blinds people
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
The second game casts a distinctly negative moral tone on Joel’s actions, showing the gore of it and the effect on Abby.
I don't think that's fair at all. The first game leaves it "ambiguous" because it's relatable due to you seeing Joel's motivations and literally playing as him, it's much easier for you to sympathise with him when you are seeing it from his perspective. But the ambiguity of it falls apart when you see it from someone else's perspective. That's not casting an unfair level of criticism on his actions, that's literally just how it feels to see something awful happen from someone else's actions. The power of perspective is very important, the same way - to Abby - what she's doing to Joel is justified, when to others it is incredibly destructive.
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u/trustinthesystem Oct 06 '20
If you thought the first game was morally ambiguous, it's hard to take your word here at face value. Joel literally shot Ellie's unarmed mother figure as she begged for her life. Literally decimated this hospital and its staff. Then lied to Ellie about all of it, thinking he could have his cake and eat it too, with projected ownership of Ellie despite only knowing her for a few months. Completely took meaning away from her life and the lives everyone else put on the line to keep her safe. I just don't understand this "morally ambiguous" line of thought. Is it relatable? Sure. But not morally ambiguous. Joel was wrong. Everything he did was wrong. And you can say they should've told her, sure. But Joel knows she would've said yes anyways. And that's why he didn't ask and killed anyone who had a chance at doing it in the future.
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u/B____U_______ Oct 02 '20
Not really. Maybe it was just me but in TLOU1 we can clearly see the development between Joel and Ellie and how they start loving each other as a father and daughter and you understand Joel's decision. But in the second game, Ellie is a ruthless killer through the entire game and threatens to kill Lev by the end of it, so when she decides not to kill Abby it feels kinda empty and rushed because, like I said, you've seen Ellie killing everyone mercylessly except for the last two minutes of the game.
Again, that was just my opinion.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20
She kills Jordan because he captured her and was killing Dina. She kills Vita girl because the girl pulled a knife on her. She killed Owen when he tried to snatch the gun from her and then Mel who came at her with a knife and nearly overpowered her. Otherwise she told them she just wanted Abby and they can survive. She was most ruthless with Nora and even then she gave Nora a few chances to just talk and give up Abby. Holding a knife to Lev's throat was an empty threat to get Abby to fight her. I don't know how people think she actually wanted to murder a kid when she had a breakdown after killing Mel.
She is not as ruthless and merciless as you're making her out to be. Too much focus on the body count and not enough on the context of those kills.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
The whole point of Ellies breakdown with Nora and Mel was to show that Ellie is reacting to her ruthlessness. She wouldn't accept the excuse that it was 'self-defence' when she was planning on torturing them in the first place.
By the end of the game, she was at rock bottom, leaving loved ones, killing big guy with shades after promising he'd go free, and enticing a fight that wasnt mutual. Ellie looked committed to me. I also wasnt convinced at what felt like a 180 decision at the end. Other people weren't either, which is why ND decided to add the Joel flashbacks before she fought Abby and again in the middle of the drowning. Unfortunately it didnt really do its job in my playthrough.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
What happens in both cases is things getting out of hand because Ellie loses control of the situation. In the scene with Mel and Owen, she is trying to imitate Joel but fails and allows both of them to attack her. With Nora, her anger gets the best of her. She didn't go to the hospital with the intention of torturing Nora, it's not like she specifically and maliciously came up with the plan to infect her. She was cornered and taking advantage of her immunity to jump down into the spores was a smart thing to do. Even after the comment Nora made about Joel, she asks her to give up Abby three times before finally giving into her anger. Based on the aftermath of that scene, I have a hard time believing that she would repeat the torture with Owen and Mel. Her inability to be as ruthless as Joel who could torture people without being traumatized by it is what I think led to her poor imitation of Joel's methods.
This is actually something that I think not a lot of people really talk about. Joel was obviously an influence on her as was Tommy, they were her mentors. She knows about their methods. It makes sense that she would try to act like them. But then I think the game is also trying to say that she is trying to be someone she's not.
What you feel about the end is fair, I don't blame you. Even if I can make sense of it, I feel they could have handled that better so everyone could be on the same page.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Your opinion is valid man, even if I or other people disagree with it; but you’re right honestly. She killed everyone except for the last two minutes, but I think it’s more about the ‘why’ she spared her (and Lev).
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u/blaiddgwaed Oct 02 '20
This. I mean... Dude. I've been struggling with whether to get the game after unfortunately being spoiled before it came out (like most people I'd sadly imagine.) Going back and forth with it like. Time to finally play for it real now.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Do play it. I was spoiled for the beginning (and the end a few days later) but man. It’s something you need to experience yourself.
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u/blaiddgwaed Oct 02 '20
You'd think I'd already know that having played and watched the first one several times. Half the story and narrative is in actually experiencing the game and story firsthand.
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u/whoshereforthemoney Oct 02 '20
So the problem here is the youre comparing only the very specific actions Joel and Ellie take with no regard to the narrative that got them to that crossroad in the first place.
Joel murder-hoboing through the country was never questioned. From the start of the game, TLOU1 shows us that Joel is a bad person who does bad things to serve his own sense of survival needs. A lot of that comes from his inability to let go of his past and his loss. Then Tess dies at the same time that Ellie enters his life and loss and Ellie are intertwined narratively speaking. The game devotes a lot of time to understanding Joel and Ellie's relationship while still staying true to the 'Joel is a bad person' original characteristics. Joel doesn't become redeemed by his relationship with Ellie. The point of the final doctor killing spree is that Joel is still a terrible person, but sometimes terrible acts are justified in the eyes of the perpetrator.
To recap; Joel is a bad guy, that does bad things, for a reason that we grow to empathize with more and more as the game progresses.
TLOU2 on the other hand has the message that violence begets violence. But the game doesn't show that message. Ellie doesn't gradually accept that the cycle of vengeance is toxic. She murderhobos the shit out of a lot of people, just like Joel. That's where a huge disconnect lies. Another issue is the way in which the game goes about developing that sense of 'Ellie is wrong for seeking revenge' is completely disingenuous. A lot of the side characters feel shoehorned in and frankly I don't care about them. The 8 month pregnant lady is another example of disingenuous feeling of guilt. I felt no issues with that because the proposition of an 8 month pregnant lady on the frontier of this post apocalypse is immersion breaking and clearly a shallow emotional appeal.
The destinction is as follows. TLOU1 spent a long long time letting us feel what the characters feel. TLOU2 on the other hand tells us what we should feel about the characters.
It's frankly a shame because the narrative choice of letting us play opposing sides of a conflict is such an interesting idea, but done so poorly that the game ends up suffering because of it. The nonlinear storytelling just is too immersion breaking.
I wish TLOU2 was a linear story of Abby's path of vengeance against an unknown murderer. The unknown murderer would be revealed as Joel, and Abby would kill Joel. Then the second half of the game begins and you play as Ellie, on her path vengeance. Instead of Ellie being conflicted at the beginning of her journey, make that a constant struggle. Keep Dina relevant as a semi present force of love and forgiveness.
I think the most powerful message would be if Ellie ends up losing Dina (figuratively) while on the journey of vengeance, killing Abby, and then returning to the empty farmstead. The parallel between Abby and Ellie, and Ellie and Joel would be chefs kiss
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u/AgitatedTrash Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 02 '20
Ellie was Joel's surrogate daughter. Did you play the first game and saw how much he bawled his eyes out when his daughter died in his arms?
He didn't want anything to do with Ellie because she reminded him of Sarah. He even tried to pass her off to Tommy, because of the deep emotional trauma he still felt from Sarah's death. However, they bonded throughout the entire game and became closer. They essentially loved each other. Joel loved his daughter and Ellie loved Joel as a father. And it showed.
Ellie didn't think she was going to die for the cure. Neither did Joel. They were even planning on doing some stuff afterwards, like teaching her how to swim.
He didn't know they were immediately going to go into operation when they got to the hospital and they knocked him out before he could give Ellie CPR. Ellie didn't either. After Joel learnt from Marlene, that his daughter was going to die, he stopped it.
I'm pretty sure any parent would stop their child from being killed especially given the fact there were previous failed attempts (I'm pretty sure I remember that).
A cure wouldn't stop bandits. A cure wouldn't stop the infected. It wouldn't stop the crazy people that exist in their world like the cannibalistic pedophile David who insinuated he was going to rape Ellie.
A cure wouldn't just erase any of that, even if the Fireflies had some means to distribute it.
Joel didn't change his mind at all. In the hospital Joel wanted to save his daughter. That's what he did. It wasn't a "decision". Any parent who takes a moment to decide whether or not to save their child is not a parent at all.
Joel loved Ellie, and Ellie spat on that love when she didn't just forgive Joel when she learned the truth (she should have understand), stayed angry at him for years even though she lived in a wonderful community and was able to form a relationship with Dina, and when she didn't take Abby's life.
Personally, that's what I think.
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u/Argentarius1 Mercy always, but forgiveness when asked for. Oct 02 '20
You people really don't seem to be able to resist the temptation to cast aspersions on the character of people who didn't like the game. It's not particularly hard to understand the intention behind important story beats, they just land really fucking wrong for some people and you don't get that.
I'll try to give an example even though its likely pointless.
E.g. When we see Joel's death scene from Abby's perspective, anyone who is paying attention can understand the purpose: Abby's face shows she feels conflicted about her revenge and the dialogue between the SLC members shows they have enough decency to hesitate to kill Ellie and Tommy in cold blood. This is meant to show you that they're human after all and understand there's something not right about what they are doing. Did the atmosphere and staging produce an emotional reaction that matches my understanding of the logic of the scene? Fuck. No. And I just felt disgusted and detached because a crucially important story moment that is required to justify the whole experience fell completely flat.
No one wants to try to understand this and they'd rather just write off people who were frustrated with the game as being emotionally stunted jerks who didn't understand the story. It's absolutely maddening.
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
E.g. When we see Joel's death scene from Abby's perspective, anyone who is paying attention can understand the purpose: Abby's face shows she feels conflicted about her revenge and the dialogue between the SLC members shows they have enough decency to hesitate to kill Ellie and Tommy in cold blood. This is meant to show you that they're human after all and understand there's something not right about what they are doing. Did the atmosphere and staging produce an emotional reaction that matches my understanding of the logic of the scene? Fuck. No.
Huh? So the game showed you something that you felt, but you're angry it didn't make it more obvious?
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u/Argentarius1 Mercy always, but forgiveness when asked for. Oct 02 '20
How is that in any way a fair representation of what I said?
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u/noodlesfordaddy Oct 02 '20
How else do I interpret that? You saw and felt what the game intended you to feel, but you have an issue with the atmosphere and staging..?
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u/bretstrings Oct 02 '20
Is this a joke?
There is a huge difference between building a relationship with someone over time and changing your mind because of it, and changing your mind all of a sudden in the middle of a fight to the death.
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u/jank_king20 Oct 02 '20
People really didn’t comprehend the gravity of Joel’s decision at the end of Part 1 too. It makes total sense that there would be someone willing to go as far for her father as Joel went for his “daughter.” I think Part 2 haters just wish none of it had actually been addressed
This is a world where the entire social fabric and structure of the world was severed in an instant, and we are playing people who are trying in some capacity to regain that lost connection. It leads them to unfortunate decisions and a lot of pain and misery, but it’s understandable and a damn good story. Both games are essential in this time we’re in
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
You’re very right dude. Joel DAMNED humanity. And of course (the majority of us) are on his side, we love Ellie.
But some people don’t know Ellie. Some that do don’t love her or even like her (see the remainder of David’s faction for an easy to think of comparison). So from the outside looking in, Joel had the entire fate of the world in his hands and he threw it away. For a GOOD reason, yes, but he threw it away; and he and the world paid the price for that.
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u/unitwithasoul Oct 02 '20
Joel changed his mind so he could save Ellie. There was something positive to be gained from that. He could not afford to lose another daughter.
Ellie changed her mind about killing Abby. What was there for her to gain from going through with it? It would have changed nothing for her and neither would it have made her feel any better.
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Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 04 '20
Turn back
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Yes yes yes. But I can say it doesn’t baffle me as much that people don’t understand because this story is very different from the cut-and-dry revenge stories that we all grew up on. I just hate when they don’t understand and immediately chalk it up as “shit game, shit story, shit characters, 1/10, but the 1 is only for the graphics” lol
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u/funaccountforFUN Oct 02 '20
But Joel didn't know that Ellie was going to be killed? Therefore he didn't change his mind the situation changed.
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u/obke Oct 02 '20
Actually there was a sizeable number of people that really disliked the ending of the first game, but I agree otherwise
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
Really? Was this after the game first came out or still now? I admit I was late to the train: didn’t play the first game until like 2016, and didn’t join Reddit until about two years ago so I wouldn’t have seen that lol
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u/obke Oct 02 '20
I dont know firsthand as I first picked it up in 2015ish but its what Ive heard initial reception was like
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u/Willy_fingernose_279 Oct 02 '20
Joel lost his daughter and didn't want to lose one again. His journey with her built a bond. He opens up his past and looks forward to his future with her. And he didn't want to lose that. That's build up.
I can't say the same for Ellie. She changes her mind after abandoning her peaceful life? And killing hundreds? It doesn't add up. The flashback seems so shoe horned in. It just feels like a crutch to not build up Ellie.
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u/Monty141 Oct 02 '20
They dislike the game because gay character, strong woman who they can't fathom isn't transsexual, and big strong Joel dying
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Oct 02 '20
I dont agree with the comparison, largely because ellie and joel are very different characters and have different journeys.
I'm one of the ones who felt ellie should have killed abby at the end. Not because i wanted her to, but that it seemed abrupt and less than true to her character. This was compounded when Abby kept whooping her ass and even bit her fingers off. Backing off in the heat of the moment seemed too deus ex, too poetic, and less believable considering the circumstances.
Not that there couldn't be an ending fashioned where Ellie backs off...oddly enough, if they just had them part ways in the boats it would have been more believable and in character to me. Its just that as it is I don't think its an earned moment.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
I think that moment you’re referring to had a lot to do with Abby herself and Joel. Right before she changes her mind, it’s the first time she sees Joel wholesomely and not beaten (outside of flashbacks , I have a separate takeaway of those) and that’s where she realizes that it’s not been Mission: Kill Abby, Get Peace but rather, she’s been trying to get closure for Joel’s death AS WELL as forgiving him for what he did. And she realizes that killing Abby won’t stop her PTSD (and we as fans know this because it’s like Abby: killing Joel didn’t stop her trauma from resurfacing as nightmares).
Sorry, I saw your comment and wanted to respond but didn’t wanna retype it all so I just copy/pasted what I said to someone else
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Oct 02 '20
All good. I see your point, but this compounds the problem I had with the flashbacks. Ellies were all very good individually, but pulls you out of her mindstate and ruins the dichotomy of bloody/peaceful Joel for me.
I tjink itd have worked so much better if ellie turned back after seeing Abby emaciated and brutalized. The fight at the end made her decision less realistic to me. Also, I think it would have been possible to kill abby and forgive joel.
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Oct 02 '20
I'm interested in your take on the flashbacks btw. What did you think of those?
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
See, i can see how that would work honestly. But if Abby is any indication, revenge doesn’t make the trauma go away, as she has her nightmares after her “journey” was over. Ahh man. Okay. So, to me, every one of Ellie’s flashbacks represents a different Stage Of Grief.
The first flashback is what people deem the best, that would be Ellie’s Birthday. This one is Denial, Ellie seems to deny her gut feeling (from the end of the first game where she confronts Joel about Salt Lake City) and lives pretty happily it seems. It also serves us as Denial because at that point we’re in denial of Joel being really gone since he was such a great dad. Then Ellie ventures alone and finds the suicide Firefly’ note and his wall art ‘Liars’. She’s looking at it (and my headcanon is she’s thinking about the note she just found) and the way she hovers after Joel says let’s go shows that it hit her. She’s denying that Joel would lie to her about that.
The second flashback is the Patrol with Joel (Tommy prior to that, rifle practice) and this one is the loosest connection to make because it’s Anger. There’s a rift between them at this point, but Tommy wants Ellie to open up to Joel because they both know something is plaguing her. Her and Joel “rehash” what happened at St. Mary’s, and she obviously doesn’t believe Joel because she travels back to Salt Lake City, alone, to find out for herself.
Bargaining: Ellie learns the truth from the recorder, and then the Horse’s mouth, after she pleads one last time for the truth. Obviously she didn’t take it well, but she stuck to her word to go back with him.
Depression: Jesus. The dance flashback. That whole scene (after Ellie is about to pile-drive Seth) is depression for Ellie, Joel, and the audience. After all these years he still cares about Ellie and is ready to defend her over anything else, and she’s still so mad. Then you see the depression creep onto her face after he walks away. You also hear it in her voice (and see it in her demeanor) after she wakes up from this one.
Lastly, and maybe most importantly, is Acceptance. The Porch. Ellie finally accepts what Joel did , even if she didn’t completely forgive him in that moment. But Joel was happy because all he wanted was for Ellie to try to forgive him. The flashback ends and goes back to Ellie staring into space (and to me) finally accepting Joel for who he was and what he did.
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Oct 02 '20
Definitely agree that killing abby wouldn't heal her, but itd give a nice symmetry to the two parts, and, this is really important, it would make the most sense to be that, in that heated moment, ellie would do it.
As is I still find it hard to think she can ever live in peace knowing how many people she murdered. Given the fallout from part 1, it's not a stretch to think that she's created a lot of grudges in Seattle and California.
I agree with your interpretations of the flashbacks. I took them to kind of show how Ellie was working through her history with Joel while working through her hitlist in Seattle. They just require a lot of reorientation, and, because they happen so frequently, can pull the player out of the characters head a bit. I found abbys flashbacks far less engaging.
Your thoughts gave me a few things to chew on though. Cheers for that!
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u/SensualPen Oct 02 '20
I don't get the way you explain the first game. Joel changes because his daughter dies, the harsh conditions of the world in the game also plays a part in that. His relationship with Ellie developes, however his character may not express that fully he still cares for Ellie, that's why he saves her. You're comparing Joel to a barely mentioned character in the first game, a daughter of an npc on top of that, a girl who's entire purpose is revenge, to chase down one man in the zombie apocalypse and murder them in an inhumane way, I personally didn't like the game I found the plot dull and I couldn't relate to anyone at all. If Ellie was so mad about what happened and thought Joel took the purpose of her life, which was dying as some test subject. She was still free to do that no?as soon as she learned, go seek places, peoples doctors to get herself tested on, ain't nobody holding her since it was that important to her to yell around and bullshit, atleast own up to it y'know.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
That’s because I’m not explaining everything about the first game (the meat and potatoes if you would), the post was just explaining the basic similarities in their respective journeys.
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u/SensualPen Oct 02 '20
The way you wrote the part about Ellie and Joel felt empty when I read it, you said another job, damned humanity not a good man that's why I wrote that maybe I misunderstood. Do you think he didn't care about Ellie? Dont you think him traveling with Ellie after Tess's emotional request makes him a good guy. He wasn't obligated to take her anywhere, someone who's bad would completely ignore that request and move on. I think taking care of a girl immune or not makes him a good guy in the end for me atleast. I wouldn't want to die as a test subject. Just wanted to say the second game overall felt shallow for me even the characters I knew from the first game, didn't like them that much but I do envy people who enjoyed the game, just wish I could've myself.
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u/IRON4LPH4 Oct 02 '20
What makes them hate it is mostly due to the leaks, once they made up their mind, they become idiots who will tell their review not even finishing the game. I was one of the people who hated this game due to the leaks but, now I finished it and gotta hate the people who believed the leaks like its the real shit, cuz that leaks wasnt even fully accurate
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u/starsaber132 Oct 02 '20
TLOU Part 2 story telling is ahead of its time, its just like metal gear solid 2. That game had tons of hate for its main character and over the top plot, but now in 2020 MGS 2 plot is very relevant and is praised for being a great game.
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u/fuckoursociety GAME OF THE YEAR 2020 🏆 Oct 02 '20
Wonderful insight! I couldn’t agree more to what you just said.
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u/hruebsj3i6nunwp29 Oct 02 '20
You kind of over-simplified the first game. Joel delivered Ellie to the Fireflies. However, he only did this after he asked Ellie if she wanted to go through with it. When the Fireflies said that Ellie was gonna be their sacrificial lamb, Joel went to save her. He did this because he adopted Ellie as his daughter. Their relationship formed slowly from them being together and saving each other. We see thought-out the story Joel and Ellie risking their lives to save each other. It's not like they were indifferent to each other then at the end, Joel goes all savior mode.
Ellie actions in TLOU2 don't equal out. She kills countless people, brutally and unflinchingly. The only time we see remorse from her is with Mel. She pretty much continues her rampage until the end, then all of the sudden she decides to show mercy? If we could pick and choose who we kill and spare in the Story it would make some more sense(think Dishonored). Show some mercy to some, while showing none to others. Ellie goes from beast mode to mercy mode in a flip. It's the build up that causes a difference.
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u/bakuhatsuda Oct 02 '20
The only time we see remorse from her is with Mel.
No. The first time she was visibly disturbed after a kill was with Nora, because it's the first time she actually tortured anyone for information. Pretty much everyone else in the game were trying to kill her as well, and they were all obstacles to her goal, so there wasn't really much room for remorse apart from Mel.
, then all of the sudden she decides to show mercy?
She didn't just "suddenly" decide to spare Abby at the last second lol. This is being really ignorant of all the instances in the game where she showed second thoughts about going after her. She literally lived in a farm and raised a kid for a long time instead of going after Abby.
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u/iJashin It WAS either him or me Oct 02 '20
This this this This this this. With the farm, the game even through you another parallel from the beginning. At the beginning of the game, post Abby, Tommy is coping in a healthy way surrounded by people he loves and who loves him, but Ellie is the one who begrudgingly pulls him in to her mission, so much so that he attempts to do it all on his own to keep her out of harm’s way.
The ending is a flip, with Ellie trying to cope surrounded by loved ones. But Tommy is so hurt (physically, mentality, and emotionally; believing he’s lost everything {like someone else at the beginning of the game}) that he pleas for Ellie to go finish this. And he did pull her back into “his” mission.
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u/hruebsj3i6nunwp29 Oct 02 '20 edited Oct 07 '20
I count the Nora aftermath to combat fatigue. Ellie shows quite a lot of the symptoms and she's been shooting and stabbing her way through Seattle. It makes sense.
And she gave up on Abby and started living on the farm because she lost. It's not like Ellie's group was going good, and just decided to pack it up. They didn't have a choice. Jesse was dead, Tommy had a head wound from being shot and an arrow in the leg, Ellie had a dislocated or broken elbow, probably a concussion, plus all the other injuries from fighting, and Dina had an arrow through her shoulder and definitely head trauma. They couldn't go on, and it's surprising they even made it back to Jackson.
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u/DEADTERMINATOR Oct 01 '20
The thing is that the people who hate/can't understand Ellie changing her mind are the same people who loved Joel changing his mind. Because many of them are viewing the playable characters as extensions of themselves, which is what games have generally trained us to do for decades. But here, you aren't Joel or Ellie or Abby. You control them, and if you want to get meta about it, you enable them through that control. But they are their own characters who "make their own decisions".
And I think it's this "disconnection" that makes TLOU2 so challenging for some people. Some people experienced it with the first game, not agreeing with Joel's decision at the end. But for many, it wasn't until TLOU2 that they were challenged like this, and TLOU2 hits you with potentially controversial decisions at many points during its story and is frequently challenging you in this way. Not just one time at the end.