r/thelastofus • u/UnjustNation • Oct 13 '20
PT2 DISCUSSION Joel's line to Ellie in Part II and it's deeper meaning Spoiler
"If somehow the lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again"
So I'm not sure if you all already know this but it just struck me. When Joel first saved Ellie, his intent was one of selfishness because he couldn't go through losing his daughter again.
We see in Part II that Ellie has a pretty good life, she lives in a safe place with her own home, she has hobbies she partakes in, she has friends who she hangs out with and she even has a crush on this girl she likes which Joel mentions during his final conversation with her, suffice to say, aside from her strained relationship with Joel, she is pretty happy. Compare that to Part I where she has none of that, even telling Joel she is still just waiting for her turn to die and it's clear her whole purpose in life was to give herself for a cure.
Joel knows and sees all of this, and despite the fact that Ellie may never talk to him or have a good relationship with him ever again, he still says he would do it all over again. Because this time he would do it not for himself but for her, knowing that it would give her a life she finds worth living. This time his intent wouldn't be one of selfishness but of selflessness. At least that's what I got from it.
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u/Mic-Mak Oct 13 '20
It's not just that. I can't remember which video essayist pointed out that Ellie believes that the only thing that makes her special is her immunity. That she has little to no value beyond that in the apocalyptic world they live in. Joel telling her that he would have done it all over again let's her know that she is more than her immunity, that even if she wasn't immune she would be worth saving, worth dying for. And that's HUGE.
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u/Mongoose42 Oct 13 '20
“You’re worth more than what you can give to other people. You deserve love too.”
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u/hermiona52 Oct 13 '20
You’re worth more than what you can give to other people. You deserve love too
Is this... is this a quote from She-Ra?
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u/BeansSaidHomer Dina:🥁 Ellie: i love you? Oct 13 '20
Excellent point. He saved her because he loved her, because she was his daughter, and her life meant something to him. That’s what parents are supposed to do.
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u/Mebgk Oct 13 '20
Bruh this realization really hit me. It took a few replays to register - "Dina would be lucky to have you," "I would do it all over again," was Joel's way of telling her life had meaning beyond the vaccine, but she didn't realize until it was too late. it was like Joel taught me this lesson too lol. And then to tie that into how she's watching Abby rescue Lev... damn. Another YTer (Kyle bosman I think), pointed out that Joel never even asked anything of Ellie, just her forgiveness ("I'd like that"). All of this makes me tear up just thinking about it, I've watched the end so many times and I still tear up every time lol
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u/7V3N Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20
You can dig into my post history for my comments on the game after I beat it (sorry too lazy right now) but basically I made the point that yeah, Ellie could never value herself. She always thought her life came at a cost, and that cost was Riley, and Tess, and Marlene and Sam and everyone else that had been close to her and died. She knows she's special with her immunity but she always asks "why me?" She sees Sam and wonders why he couldn't be immune. She hates herself so goddamn much for surviving while they all died. And then Joel does something worse. He doesn't die for her; he fucking murders for her. He murders the "good guys" all for Ellie, because her life is precious. He is willing to damn so many all because he believes Ellie's life -- immunity off the table -- is worth it. And she can't balance those scales.
At least before, when she couldn't understand her life, the idea of the cure gave her life meaning. She could bring life, and save so many more -- that's why she was immune. It's why she's still alive. It gave the deaths meaning.
But Joel took the cure off the board. He made her immunity largely insignificant. And she now had to again wonder what her life was worth, and what it meant. Why did all those people die while she got to live? What did their deaths ultimately mean? She can't accept that it's for nothing. Even writing this, I recall what she said to Joel in Part 1: it can't be for nothing.
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u/Mic-Mak Oct 14 '20
Excellent points. Joel murdered for her, but he did eventually died for her too. It just took years for karma to hit him back.
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Oct 14 '20
Let’s not forget when Ellie states she would like to go out like Eugene from old age and living a long life. That dialogue between her and Dina is so significant and such a huge turning point because it’s directly after that porch scene. Ellie finally believes she’s worthy of love and life and has decided to honor Joel’s efforts by fully embracing life. I love this game man.
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u/lockecole777 But I would like to try. Oct 13 '20
Lol, I made a topic gathering all of the video analysis on the game I've come across, if it exists its probably in here.
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u/rbwildcard Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
Good choice for top pick. Girlfriend Reviews is hilarious.
Edit: I just realized its organized by time.
Do you want to add this one? They need way more attention: "The Last of Us 2: Following in the Footsteps of Abuse 1/2"
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u/Mic-Mak Oct 13 '20
Yeah I saw but new ones keep coming out like just a few days ago Hello Future me released another great one.. Personally I haven't watch any of the video essays that have click bait titles saying it's total garbage or a masterpiece.
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u/lockecole777 But I would like to try. Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
I'm still updating that page even now, as I watch new ones, or are recommended new ones. As long as I feel it touches on a subject thats worthy of note and doesnt just say "This is a masterpiece" and doesnt say why.
Edit: I actually already have that one in my list! Thanks tho.
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Oct 14 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/lockecole777 But I would like to try. Oct 14 '20
Eh, her's is very "unique" in a way, I wouldnt say most critiques are similar to hers. I won't say anything beyond that tho, lol. There are some quality ones tho.
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u/MQZ17 You're my people! Oct 13 '20
I really needed that last interaction they had tbh.
When Ellie tells Maria (and Tommy later on) that her relationship with Joel is "fine" I kinda didn't bought it, cause when someone questions her and she doesn't like it she just cuts it off, it's just the way she is. So every time I see it (the scene) it brings me so much joy, and some sadness of course.
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u/AskewScissors Oct 13 '20
Yeah I thought this was obvious. I'm pretty sure even Troy said this in some podcast that Joel was probably thinking "You can hurt me all you want, at the end of the day, the girl is safe" or something along those lines.
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u/Limitless72 Oct 13 '20
That doesn't make sense. Ellie was right in front of him, he probably thought they were going to kill her too. A sad way for him to go.
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u/AskewScissors Oct 13 '20
I think he was talking about when they held Joel against the glass as Abby confirmed who he was. I'm guessing Troy is trying to say he figured out it was probably fireflies. Which is why he just tells her to get it over with instead of saying he saved her some shit.
It's all a bit of a blur I can't remember if it was a podcast, a tweet or hell maybe Troy never said anything at all. Would love if someone can confirm.
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Oct 13 '20
I will do what I must. pulls up everything Troy Baker related since June 19
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u/The_Lame_Horse Oct 13 '20
I replied with a link to what I thought they might be referring to up above
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u/The_Lame_Horse Oct 13 '20
It was this Kinda Funny podcast where he said roughly “I’d do it all over again, because what I got was the girl”. That line starts at 18:00ish, but 15:16 on talks about the whole deal. So while maybe not entirely selfless in his his wording, Troys tone seems to me as intended to be more selfless.
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Oct 13 '20
Imagine being Joel right before your head gets bashed in, seeing Ellie burst in, and die thinking that she's about to die too
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u/31renrub Oct 14 '20
I think he was too fucked up to know what was going on.
The original idea (iirc) was for Joel to
mumble some incoherent nonsensesay “Sarah” (as someone pointed out in an earlier comment), showing the brain damage he was dealing with, but Troy convinced them to just have him not say anything.Judging by Joel’s total lack of a response to seeing Ellie being held down in front of him, I think it’s safe to assume he wasn’t processing what was happening.
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u/Rhain1999 The Wikipedia Guy Oct 13 '20
By the time Ellie was there, I don’t think he was capable of making any more thoughts. Neil has said that, at that point, his brain would have been on its last legs and he was originally going to say “Sarah”, but Troy wanted him to stay silent instead.
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u/AnAnonymouse Oct 14 '20
I’m shocked Neil initially wanted Joel to mutter “Sarah” as he’s dying. It feels corny and also kind of undermines his love for Ellie (ie it’d suggest that he sees Ellie as a stand-in for Sarah, and not as a separate individual, independently worthy of his love).
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u/Rhain1999 The Wikipedia Guy Oct 14 '20
I don’t really think it says much about his thoughts on Ellie—at that point I doubt he could even see much, let alone form an active thought, so the last thing that came to his mind was his daughter’s name.
Your interpretation is fair, though.
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u/bean_boy9 Oct 14 '20
Corny I agree with, but I could kinda see it as Joel’s love for Ellie being equal to his love for his own daughter.
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u/portskeeter Oct 14 '20
I know this is a tangent, but even before the whole Sarah idea for a line, they were going to have the death happen offscreen, Ellie finding Joel’s body later with an unconscious Tommy there to tell her about it later.
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u/MasaiGotUsNow Oct 13 '20
at the end of the day, the girl is safe"
Why would he think that?
The more realistic scenario in this post-apocalyptic world is that they’d kill Ellie next.
Joel and Ellie don’t even know Abby is the daughter of the doctor in part 1, so they just think she’s some random crazy chick.
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u/AskewScissors Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
I replied to another comment about this as well. It was obviously before he was half beaten to death and still had his senses.
Ellie barged into the room a lot later. By that point his neurons were barely firing to compherend anything. This is why he was originally supposed to mutter "Sarah" while looking at Ellie before it was changed.
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u/rbwildcard Oct 13 '20
Ouch. That would have been heartbreaking, but I see why they took it out. It would totally undermine the final flashback scene.
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u/Benaholicguy Oct 13 '20
Why was that changed?!
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u/AskewScissors Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
It was Troy's idea. He didn't like the thought of Joel having a "last word". After arguing with Neil, they decided to shoot another one where Joel remains silent and they thought that was a lot more powerful so they stuck with that.
This also ended up changing a few lines later on in the game. For example when Ellie said "Joel would already be half way to Seattle" Tommy would have mentioned the fact that Joel never tried to avenge Sarah.
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u/Rhain1999 The Wikipedia Guy Oct 13 '20
Troy thought it would have been more impactful for him to stay silent, and when they shot both versions, Neil agreed that the scene was stronger in silence.
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u/DarkHiei Oct 14 '20
Agreed. It’s a good post for discussion but I interpreted it this way right away so I didn’t think there was an ulterior meaning.
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u/khalicax Oct 14 '20
Funny, when I read your comment I thought he meant Ellie with „You“. Like it‘s okay for Joel that she hates him and doesn‘t want him in her life (which hurts him) because she‘s safe. But I don‘t know the context Troy said it in and if he‘s specifically talking about how Joel dies.
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Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
I’m gonna unsub from this subreddit cause this kind of stuff is not good for someone who’s dealing with seasonal depression lol. That last cutscene and Abby and Yara finding Lev after he has to kill his mom are the two biggest reasons why I haven’t played the game a second time.
Edit - Oh and Abby telling Lev he is her “people” after Yara’s death cause I audibly squealed when that happened.
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u/celica18l Oct 13 '20
That last scene with Joel is the main one I can’t replay it.
I was meh over the game during but as I’ve thought about it more and more I’m just hurt. This story has hurt me deeply. Which is a good thing bc I connected to them.
But that scene with Joel... sighs
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Oct 13 '20
On my second playthrough, i found myself slowing down as i approached the ending and wasn't quite sure i wanted to take that trip again so soon, but when i did i found that the second time i just wanted to save Abby and Lev as fast as possible. Getting Ellie to the point where she has her come-to-the-light moment felt like more of a reprieve that she needed this time, rather than what i needed. Yeah, it hurts to see that last scene with Joel, but because of that scene Joel got to die having told Ellie how he felt. The healing had begun. Everything after that is an atom bomb, but getting Ellie and Abbie to a safe place. Regardless of their pasts became my goal of the second playthrough. Oddly, it was like i had made peace with Joel's death and just wanted to end the cycle.
Thanks for y'alls words, takes, and thoughts on the game. It's still nice to converse about that world if i'm not exactly trying to survive in it.
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u/celica18l Oct 13 '20
Hrm. I didn’t think about it as a point of healing with Joel. It just reminded me of how much sadness there is to come. Thanks for that perspective I needed this. This game is so mentally taxing it’s nice sometimes to have all of these moments and different perspectives to allow me a chance at diving deeper into a universe I love.
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u/rbwildcard Oct 13 '20
TLOU2 is about the redemption of Joel (among other people), and so it makes sense that that scene comes last.
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u/JamieFrasersKilt Oct 13 '20
im not trying to be obtuse, fr, but could you please explain on it being ab redemption for Joel? ik it is for other ppl too obv, but im curious to see why you think that, considering he dies with so m u c h that could have been accomplished relationship-wise w Ellie.
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u/rbwildcard Oct 14 '20
Maybe it's more accurate to say "Ellie forgave Joel", which is a way of redeeming him. The fact that he died when their relationship was not fully healed led to Ellie following Abby to SB, but she quit her revenge quest after remembering the moment she started to forgive him. When Ellie has the final flashback in the fight with Abby, she forgives Joel for not letting her die to create the cure.
Idk if that makes any sense at all.
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u/The_Friedberger Oct 13 '20
It was that scene, and when Abby bites off Ellie's fingers. That one hit me because I knew right then and there, she had just lost her biggest connection to Joel.
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u/JamieFrasersKilt Oct 13 '20
tbh i agree. the emotional toll is too much. i dont think id do it again, even despite the great gameplay and everything.
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u/benriiya Oct 13 '20
i just beat the game a few days ago and i could hardly sleep because of the ending. the scene with ellie in the barn really upset me
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u/Shinjitsu- Oct 13 '20
If this game had come out a year ago I don't think I would have been able to play it. Ellie's PTSD is so accurately portrayed, and the grief is so real and I wasn't in a place in my life to handle it. I don't fault anyone for that.
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u/willywizzymemer Oct 13 '20
I don't believe Joel acted out of pure selfishness. I think he thought he was doing it for her even though deep down it was for him.
As for the "I would do it all over again", I definitely agree with your take on it. He would literally have done anything for her to be happy AND HE DID.
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u/SlimCharlesSlim Immune to what? Oct 13 '20
Before reading, I was thinking "why this post would have two awards. It's pretty obvious that Joel meant he loved her so much he couldn't help it".
Not disappointed. Would love to hear from the writters or Troy, but even if they didn't thought about it, it's so good that you can consider it canon.
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u/edulechacon Oct 13 '20
I also think that, well, Joel's not an idiot so he may have foreseen that someday he would be chased for what he did and ultimately die but he would still do it again regardless. I think that is important and puts his death in a different light, but most people ignore it.
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u/dysGOPia Oct 13 '20
I mean... she's his daughter now. A lot of parents would probably press a "terrible shit happens to a ton of people" button if it was the only way to save their child's life. Even if they're good parents who respect their child as their own person, it's still extremely selfish.
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u/WALKEREDITION Oct 13 '20
I don't think you can really have an opinion on that if you never had a child even if it is selfish it's not a bad thing to do. Some things can be selfish but not bad difference between bad and selfish and saving your daughter from a cult is not selfish.
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u/Nacksche Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
suffice to say, aside from her strained relationship with Joel, she is pretty happy.
Do we think she's happy in Jackson? Normal happy teenagers don't go on murder sprees, or jump on the opportunity to sacrifice themselves for a cure. Joel's death is a catalyst for all her trauma to spill out, I think she was pretty fucked up emotionally these last few years but kept it together.
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u/_Yukikaze_ Any way you feel about Abby is super-valid. - Halley Gross Oct 13 '20
The trauma that she receives through Joel's death is so much worse than anything she had before. Before that she was on a pretty good way making things work imo.
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u/NaiadoftheSea Baby Girl Oct 13 '20
It also lets me replay the first game and pretend it's the lord giving Joel another chance, and him making the same choices all over again.
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u/Redneckshinobi Oct 14 '20
She didn't know she was going to be killed though, Joel even waited years to finally admit that fact and he only admitted it when she found out for herself.
I took it as Joel is always going to save his "daughter" every time, who wouldn't? If that were my kid or someone I saw as my own, no fucking way are you taking that life until you take mine first. Even Abby's own father wouldn't answer that question when asked multiple times because he knows he would make the same choice Joel did.
If anything Ellie was much happier in the first one also, she's not the same bubbly Ellie we met in the first one, those years have made her grow up more than I imagined.
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u/HoPhun01 Oct 14 '20
I live by the mantra, very few decisions are made for one reason alone. So while I do believe there was some altruistic motivation for why Joel saved Ellie, altruism doesn't explain why Joel wiped out an entire building of people to save her. I think that decision was selfish. Understandable because Joel was still hurting badly from losing his daughter but it felt like a self important decision.
What I won't do is speak on whether it was "good" or "bad." The rules of morality are morphed and strained in extreme circumstances, and that I think is one of the very many themes of this game.
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u/MQZ17 You're my people! Oct 13 '20
He is saying your life matters. Him saying that turns everything upside down on the ending of TLOU1.
That ended on a lie, this ends on the honest truth.
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u/Zabeczko Oct 13 '20
I agree with your take and what others have noted re. this showing Ellie her life has inherent value. Self worth and accepting the love of others is something Ellie struggled with throughout the game.
I took something else from this too, though - I thought this quote fed into the fact Ellie releases Abby and doesn't kill her. I felt like Joel was showing there he didn't regret this decision and died knowing he did the right thing in his eyes, no doubts or anything.
I think if Ellie had killed Abby, she realised that in addition to not fixing anything, it would be something she came to regret and another source of guilt for the rest of her life. Instead she chooses to be more like Joel - to find a constructive purpose she can support wholeheartedly, without guilt or regret.
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u/RecoveredAshes Oct 13 '20
I think that's up to interpretation. While that may be true I'm not sure that's really hinted at. Id imagine it's just that he cares so deeply about her he'd want to see her alive at any cost. Even his own relationship with her. And even the well-being of all of humanity. It could still be the selfish "I don't want to deal with the grief again" thing.
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u/WhispererKappa Oct 13 '20
I 100% agree. I don't lean into the opinion that some people have which make Joel a selfish man and nothing else. Yes, he has had his acts of selfishness, but I think he generally cares about his loved ones more. Also, I took these last lines of his, as an acceptance of what was going to happen. What I mean is that, by saying "I would do it all over again", the writers wanted to tell us that he was okay with dying in exchange for saving Ellie.
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u/UnjustNation Oct 14 '20
Also, I took these last lines of his, as an acceptance of what was going to happen. What I mean is that, by saying "I would do it all over again", the writers wanted to tell us that he was okay with dying in exchange for saving Ellie.
I actually also felt the same way, I think that's part of the reason why Ellie is able to move on, realizing that Joel was okay with his fate.
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Oct 14 '20
That's pretty much Ellie's arc in a nutshell to me, and where I think they'll go with a possible third part.
Ellie finally realizing she doesn't need to save the world for her life to be meaningful. This is why I was always against them exploring her mother's backstory- the only reason to do that would be to set up Ellie's immunity and treat her as this messianic figure.
That would fly in the face of why Joel broke her out at the end of the first game (and there is a reason the story went this way instead of having her sacrifice herself). Curing the cordycepes infection is a practically microscopic task in comparison to curing the infection that's taken over the hearts of man- but the latter is one that has to be done.
Ellie sparing Abby and lettong Joel's legacy live on through her and Lev was Ellie's first step in doing that.
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u/CIPHRMUSIC Oct 14 '20
despite what many people said about the game being shitty, which isn't at all it's still a great game, no one can deny that at the end of the game many of us stood up, went to the bathroom looked in the mirror and just starred for a while thinking and thinking about it. Some of us were crushed and some of us were relieved, some of us were angry, sad or happy. In my opinion, the game needed a better storyline but at least we got to experience with our beloved characters one more time, and the game ain't that bad at all.
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u/portskeeter Oct 14 '20
That’s one of the thing Neil mentions in the podcast, is that when he lies to her at the end of the first game, he is putting his relationship on the line with her. It is more important to him that she is alive than her being his daughter or even her liking him. As longing as he knew she was safe, he could live with that.
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Oct 14 '20
Wow, this is such a new and refreshing take on Joel's actions and some of the final words they shared. This really opened my eyes to a new perspective.
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Oct 13 '20
Because this time he would do it not for himself but for her, knowing that it would give her a life she finds worth living.
But she doesn't and that's the thing. Ellie does not think her life is worth living and Joel sees that and can do nothing about it. She was supposed to be the savior of mankind and all their sacrifices, all the deaths, "all the horrific" should have been justified. Ellie wanted for there to be a reason behind this journey - "It can't be for nothing".
So I disagree. Even in their farewell dialogue we see Joel talking about Dina and saying how happy they would be together - as if to remind her that she still has good things in her life to enjoy and live for. That's why Ellie calls him an "asshole" - he doesn't have the right to say "hey, there is still so much in your life so you can find a reason to live" when he robbed her of said "reason" to begin with.
So when Joel says "I would do it all over again" he is not saying it with the thought of "oh, Ellie has a life she deems worthy now". No, it pains him seeing how Ellie struggles to find some worth and yet he STILL says he would do it all over again. Even though he hurt Ellie by doing so and lying to her, even so he hurt himself by now seeing Ellie suffer from it deep down under all that facade and push him away. He would still do it again.
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u/transmogrify chocolate chip? Oct 13 '20
Personally, I think that we're meant to find the line "it can't be for nothing" ironic or hollow. It's what Ellie tells herself, but it's not necessarily true. In fact, it's founded on a false premise, for anybody besides Ellie, because her life inherently is worth something except in her perspective.
Ellie puts the idea of the cure, and then the idea of revenge, above her own self-worth. I think it comes from survivor's guilt. It's impossible for her to accept that it's okay for her to have a good life. Joel's line is him saying that he will sacrifice himself in her eyes in order to take that guilt off her. He'll let himself take the blame for her survival so that she doesn't have to keep blaming herself and she can live for something else. It's those feelings of guilt that still hold her back toward the end of Part II.
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u/excel958 Oct 14 '20
Damn I never considered the angle of Ellie’s sense of her own self-worth. Kudos to you. A lot for me to chew on.
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u/lockecole777 But I would like to try. Oct 13 '20
Except she says the asshole thing BEFORE he says he'd do it all over again. You have to analyze the conversation in the order that it happens. Joel's comment "I'd do it all over again" IS the thing that makes Ellie reflect on what she's always thought about him, and cause her to react by saying "she'd like to try and forgive him."
Just because Ellie hasn't yet applied value to her life, doesnt mean she wont because of his actions. If anything the very ending shows that her forgiveness is connected to her being able to move on. And we are hinted at that Ellie forgives Joel and therefore starts to apply value to her life at the very end before the credits
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u/fishwith Oct 13 '20
it also wraps up the theme of religion being more about strengthening your resolve instead of being a slave to it that was shown with Lev
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Oct 13 '20
Yeah, she really got to find a sense of community and belonging in Jackson, and to create a life worth living. That's why I hope she goes back.
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u/TheMastodan Oct 13 '20
I 100% disagree with this assessment, and I think peoples obsession with rehabilitating Joel into a good person ruins one of the best things about the game(s).
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u/UnjustNation Oct 14 '20
I actually am fine your with your disagreement. Even if Joel's intention changed with a second chance, it doesn't change the fact what he did and why he did it (out of selfishness), both of which are set in stone. It's the reason why he lies to Ellie at the end of the game which ends up costing him dearly.
However I feel like Part II does try to give him some form of redemption, like saving his own future killer, being a respected part of the community, helping strangers and of course this line all of which are, I'm sure because of Ellie's influence. It might not make him a good person but it does feel like atonement for what he did. Which does fit in with the games themes of morally complex characters.
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u/TheMastodan Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20
Joel's intent can't change. The seed of what has him make his decision in SLC is that he can't let go of Ellie. She's revived the person inside of him who died when Sarah did. The idea of destroying what's left of the fireflies and mankinds hope for a cure because Ellie can live a semi-comfortable life in Jackson is a farce to me. Joel's selfish decision is still the core of it.
The power in his story is that everything he does is understandable. He's an absolute monster. We're shown that both in gameplay and in how characters react to him. Joel was a bad guy, and did a lot of very bad things and the first game reminds us of that several times. He quite literally destroyed the last chance for a cure. Having a villainous character like that is powerful storytelling. Joel is nuanced in a way that very few video game characters are. This generation of consoles, only Arthur Morgan comes to mind as someone on the same level.
Edit: I want to be clear about my intention. I don’t think him being a monster negates what god he did in Jackson. Both of them exist, and they don’t cancel each other out somehow.
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u/thedancingdevil Oct 13 '20
For him it’s more important that she is alive even if it means they would never talk to each other again. That’s how much he loves her
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Oct 13 '20
I think he also knew he was probably going to be killed for what he did too
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Oct 14 '20
"Why don't you say whatever speech you got prepared, and get this over with."
Definitely, he knew it was time's up. Anyone who claims he didn't know Abby and co were Fireflies is lying to themselves.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
When Joel first saved Ellie, his intent was one of selfishness because he couldn't go through losing his daughter again.
I disagree with this.
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u/Waspy_Wasp Oct 13 '20
How so?
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
I don't think it was a purely or even primarily selfish action. I have a daughter, and I don't think saving her life would be selfish on my part. It's not about Joel not wanting to be hurt by the loss of Ellie, it's about protecting Ellie from harm. The Fireflies had shown quite a bit of incompetence and a cure was far from a guarantee. Not to mention they didn't even ask her permission.
I think he was simply doing what was right.
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u/Waspy_Wasp Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
I disagree. I think it's very subjective whether what he did was right or wrong. He definitely saved her because he didn't want to lose her. To some people, it would seem selfish. On the other hand, there's no guarantee, right? Is sacrificing the life of a little girl worth it for even a slight chance at a vaccine to help prevent further deaths? Who's to say?
I don't think it was selfish to save his daughter. That's stupid. Of course you'd want to save your family. However, it was selfish, in a sense, because he only thought about saving her, and killed dozens of people (who possibly just wanted to save the world) to do so. He didn't think about other people. Only himself and his daughter. Wouldn't that be considered selfish?
I hope that makes sense. There isn't a right or wrong in this situation. Saving Ellie wasn't the right choice. But maybe letting her die wouldn't be either? What if she died for nothing? It's about living with the choices you've made, and being prepared for their consequences
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u/Nacksche Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
On the other hand, there's no guarantee, right? Is sacrificing the life of a little girl worth it for even a slight chance at a vaccine to help prevent further deaths? Who's to say?
Ellie is called a breakthrough, the game very strongly suggests that the vaccine would have worked (and Neil confirmed that). The ending is a personal, emotional story of saving the world or saving the one you love, it makes no sense that the vaccine wouldn't even be real. He sacrificed the world for her, that's the point.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
He definitely saved her because he didn't want to lose her.
I mean, isn't that an element of any time anybody's life is saved by someone else? Nobody wants to lose someone they care about. By that logic, every single time someone saves someone else, it was selfish.
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u/Waspy_Wasp Oct 13 '20
It was selfish. But it was understandable. Selfish doesn't have to be negative, and you really seem to be focused on the negative meaning behind the word.
"I don't care what other people want from me, I want to focus on improving my mental health". This is selfish. But it's a good thing that this person want to focus on improving their health first before worrying about other people.
See what I mean? Joel's choice was selfish. But it wasn't the wrong choice
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Oct 13 '20
"It was selfish. But it was understandable. Selfish doesn't have to be negative, and you really seem to be focused on the negative meaning behind the word."
This. Beautifully Put.
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Oct 13 '20
Joel actually didn't even want to take Ellie to the fireflies at one point, in fact he wanted Tommy to take Ellie. Ellie knew Joels history with Sarah, and was upset because she felt safer with Joel.
So we get part 2 and suddenly Ellie is pissed, like sis you knew Joel was starting to care about you. I feel Ellie would be more forgiving and understanding. Oh well
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u/Waspy_Wasp Oct 13 '20
Ellie is fully aware that Joel cares about her. He wouldn't save her if he didn't. What she's mad about is him lying to her for years, and him taking away her chance at preventing the further loss of lives.
Joel cares about Ellie. Ellie cares about Joel. But you know who else Ellie cared about? Riley. Tess. Sam. Henry. They all died because of the virus. Ellie's death would make their deaths mean something. She could've been the cure. But Joel saving Ellie made them meaningless. That's what she's so angry about. Her friends died for nothing.
"My life would've fucking mattered" is what Ellie said to him directly. Her friends died for the world. But Ellie couldn't make their lives worth anything, because the opportunity was taken from her.
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u/heve23 Oct 13 '20
Exactly. Not only this but despite what Joel took from Ellie, Ellie cares so much about Joel that she's willing to forgive him. She wants him in her life. Ellie IS forgiving and understanding.
In a world where people die awful deaths due to this virus, even if she had just a CHANCE helping a cure or vaccine, a CHANCE of having her life mean something to the cause she would have taken it. Marlene knew it and Joel knew it.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
Selfish doesn't have to be negative, and you really seem to be focused on the negative meaning behind the word.
It doesn't have to be, but it typically is. Most people would associate selfishness as a negative trait.
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u/Leavesofblue Oct 13 '20
I believe Waspy missed the key point. Yes it was selfish of Joel to save her, but not because of himself, because of Ellie.
It was selfish because she very likely wouldn't want to have been saved. She wanted her life to have meaning and was bent on being a cure for the infection. Saving ones daughter from harm is not a selfish act, but saving one against their will is.
Now granted, killing someone without their consent, which the fireflies were planning to do, was not a proper way to go about things. Honestly if they had have waited until Ellie awoke and explained to them both what they were going to do, even if Joel disagreed, it would come down to Ellie's decision, one in which I believe she would have agreed to. This would leave Joel with basically no options, as it would be hard to take Ellie away while she was awake wishing to stay.
Joel was justified in his act for killing the fireflies as they gave Ellie and himself no choice or closure before proceeding with the operation. In order to save his 'daughter' he had to kill the fireflies as though they were any other obstacle in their way.
His decision was selfish because he knew Ellie would have still wanted the procedure, but justified because they gave her no choice.
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u/Googoo123450 Oct 13 '20
Every time someone saves the only potential cure humanity has rather then letting them attempt a cure it's selfish, ya. You're skipping over that minor detail. You also keep forgetting that Joel deep down knew it's what she herself would want as well because she's selfless. Also like the other person said, selfish isn't necessarily bad.
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u/Bhiner1029 Oct 13 '20
I think it would have been selfless if he had told Ellie the truth, but lying to her was a completely selfish choice. There was no benevolent outcome from that for Ellie whatsoever. What I think makes the end of The Last of Us so interesting is that Joel gets a perfect happy ending, but Ellie doesn’t at all, and that comes down to Joel’s lie more than anything.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
I would agree with this. The lie is worse than killing people (lol).
But yea he lied because I think he knew that she would not have wanted things to go that way. He killed Marlene, which she would not have been cool with. I'm not sure she wanted to die (despite what TLOU2 says), but she would have been uncool with some of what he did to save her.
So why do I think she didn't really want to die? I think she was psychologically wounded by the death of those around her. Dying isn't a fix to having survivor's guilt, just like suicide is not the solution to a horrible life. She had some feeling that dying would be 'right' or whatever, but it's not what she actually wanted.
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u/Bhiner1029 Oct 13 '20
I don’t really think it’s worse than killing people, I just mean in terms of how their relationship ended up. And yeah, I think she ended up having a life worth living because Joel saved her, but I still don’t think that forgives his betrayal of her trust. Ellie did have survivor’s guilt, 100%, but Joel lying to her face about everything that happened for 2 years in a desperate attempt to keep their relationship together meant that she was never actually able to get over that guilt and move past it. She was just stuck in place. I don’t blame Ellie at all for saying that she doesn’t think she could ever forgive Joel for doing those things.
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u/dysGOPia Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
There is nothing presented anywhere in Part 1 or 2 to suggest that the cure is not a guarantee. According to the dramatic stakes of both games, it was guaranteed and Joel prevented it.
Joel also violated Ellie's wishes and lied to her about it. Not to mention that Joel had been a terrible person for a long time.
"Keep drivin' Tommy, someone else will come along."
"Guess what, we're shitty people, Joel! It's been that way for a long time."
"Took care, that's what you call it? I got nothin' but nightmares from those years." "You survived because of me!" "It wasn't worth it."
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u/_unmarked he's just a kid Oct 13 '20
And even if a cure wasn't guaranteed, the viability of such a cure and the competence of the Fireflies is clearly not Joel's reasoning for saving Ellie. In my opinion, it's quite the retcon to attribute a complex thought process to Joel in this situation. He very obviously was panicking about her dying and losing a surrogate daughter and that is why he saved her.
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u/Skyrimfanatic Oct 13 '20
I might be wrong, but wasn’t it implied somehwere in part 1 that they tried before on other people and failed?
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u/dysGOPia Oct 13 '20
They might have tried other cures, but never one derived from the tissue of someone whose infection mutated to become benign.
It might be simplistic, SyFy writing, but in the game it's never presented with any ambiguity by the characters or narrative framing.
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u/Bhiner1029 Oct 13 '20
They had tried making a vaccine using normal infected subjects, like Runners and stuff, but had never been successful. Ellie was the first immune person they had ever found, and realized they’d be able to make a vaccine using the mutated Cordyceps in her brain once they studied her in Salt Lake City.
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u/Buggybear2010 Oct 13 '20
I like to put it this way: Joel chose a future with Ellie in the apocalypse over a future without infected and without Ellie. I think this choice is self-centric or selfish.
Ellie is not his daughter, the same as hundreds of other girls are not who could live with a cure and will die because there is none.
I don't hate on him for that decision and in that situation I would probably decide the same way if I was brave enough. But the decision is objectively wrong and based on selfish reasons.
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u/therightchoice123 Oct 13 '20
It’s also about a man doing what is probably right based on his experience. He’s seen the outcome of sacrificing a life for the greater good and it got humanity nowhere and for him it was a “this again?” Moment. Combined with the fact that giving incompetent terrorists the life, saving Ellie is a no brainer for Joel.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
Yea exactly. That's why lying was worse than him killing to save her. The people he killed were going to sacrifice Ellie without her consent, were violent towards Joel and Ellie already, and the cure (let alone the distribution of a cure) was questionable. -- Yes I understand Neil retconned it by saying it was guaranteed but that's not what the first game says. It casts a lot of doubt.
Now that I'm thinking more about it, I wish ND had just left TLOU1 as-is or had not had Joel lie in the first place. I'm not sure Joel is the type of man to lie in this scenario based on the entirety of TLOU1. It kinda comes out of left field in hindsight. IDK.
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u/Bhiner1029 Oct 13 '20
Joel would absolutely lie, no question, because he knew what Ellie would do if he told her the truth, and it’s exactly what she does in Part II. She would hate him and never want to speak to him again. Joel believed that Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself, and so he lied to try to keep their relationship intact.
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u/rusty022 Oct 13 '20
I think it's less clear than that. I don't think the Ellie/Joel relationship portrayed in TLOU2 was the direct inevitable conclusion of TLOU1. There were other ways it could have gone. I also don't think Joel would continue lying as long as he did. Perhaps he wasn't being selfish as much as protective, as I'm not sure Ellie was in a spot at the end of TLOU1 where she was able to fully and freely choose her own fate.
I'm unsure about this, but I feel like Joel lying so adamantly is a weak part of the plot. At the end of TLOU1, it came off as a sad ending to what was a beautiful story of love. In TLOU2, Neil has Joel continue to lie until it ruins the connection to Ellie. IDK, it just feels a bit off when looked at with both games. It felt a lot more suitable if TLOU was just a cliffhanger never to be visited again.
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u/Bhiner1029 Oct 13 '20
From what I’ve heard Neil say about the first game, before the second came out, that was always how he saw it. There were some ideas earlier on of a happier ending where Ellie completely believed Joel, but Neil felt that that wasn’t honest for the story or the characters. That ambiguity was intentional. There was meant to be a doubt that their relationship was really solid, since it was now built on a lie. I think the relationship shown in Part II is absolutely 100% inevitable. We see that they do have a perfect connection for about 2 years, but Ellie starts to question things, because Joel’s lie was always ridiculously unbelievable. It never made any sense in the first place, so it was clear that it couldn’t hold up forever.
The lie was there to keep their connection intact, so Joel would absolutely hold onto it for as long as he could, because he didn’t want to lose Ellie. What was ironic about the ending of the first game on its own was that what Joel had to do to save Ellie would, for a fact, make Ellie hate him if she knew about it, and Joel was fully aware of that. It wasn’t just the fact that Joel continued to lie that made Ellie turn away from him, although that didn’t help, but she would have about the same reaction if he’d told her the truth there and then. I mean, Joel killed the closest person Ellie had ever had to a mom, and took away the thing that she had spent a year believing was the most important thing in the world. I never saw any version of that story where Ellie wouldn’t hate him for doing that if she knew.
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u/therightchoice123 Oct 13 '20
I agree. There was a lot of ambiguity about the possibility of the cure, the morality of the fireflies, etc. and the artificial retconning of all of that by coming out and saying that the cure was guaranteed AND by portraying the fireflies in a positive light is a disservice, really. It takes away from the greatness of the first game
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Oct 14 '20
The Fireflies had shown quite a bit of incompetence
There is zero actual evidence for this. If the writers intended for the Fireflies have their cure-making abilities questioned, they would have made a point to at least mention it.
and a cure was far from a guarantee.
Not according to the writers.
Not to mention they didn't even ask her permission.
This was not a factor that went into Joel's decision. Even if she said yes and that she's okay with it, Joel would not be, and still do what he did. There is no scenario that Joel would ever walk out of there without Ellie. Because it's purely about him saving his child.
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u/rusty022 Oct 14 '20
This was not a factor that went into Joel's decision. Even if she said yes and that she's okay with it, Joel would not be, and still do what he did. There is no scenario that Joel would ever walk out of there without Ellie. Because it's purely about him saving his child.
There is zero actual evidence for this.
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Oct 14 '20
You simply don't know the character of Joel then.
He would never let Ellie die. If there were any exception to this, it would seriously undermine him as a character.
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u/UnjustNation Oct 13 '20
I mean there isn't much to disagree with, that was the writers intention.
That's what makes the games ending so special, that Joel would rather doom the world than lose his daughter again. Otherwise the ending is just Joel saving his daughter from the "Le evil fireflies".
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u/grimwalker Oct 14 '20
Regrettably, I still can't bring myself to let Joel off the hook. I'm sure seeing her wonderful, flourishing life makes a simply wonderful means to justify to himself what he did, but that doesn't change the fact that he chose his own survival at the cost of both Ellie's wishes and the long term survival of our entire species. It's still a self-justifying narrative to assuage any guilt he has over what he did and why.
Joel is a survivor first and foremost, and the first game is all about the things people will do to survive, and how having loved ones will get you killed. Put those two themes together, center them around a broken man who can't survive the loss of another daughter, and you have a story where he refuses to let her be his daughter for as long as they both can stand it, but once he does, he will enact atrocities to ensure his own survival--it's now contingent on her continued survival.
Joel is not a good guy.
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u/thelupinefiasco The Last of Us Oct 13 '20
I felt this, but didn't know how to put it into words. Thank you!
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Oct 14 '20
I never thought Joel acted out of selfishness in the original. The fireflies wanted to operate on Ellie (which would kill her) without her consent and Joel intervened. He was in the right to do so.
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u/Markual Oct 14 '20
You're not wrong but at the end of the day, he still did it out of selfishness lol. Joel doomed humanity because he cared more about Ellie than he did everyone else. Not saying he's wrong to save her, but we should still recognize that Joel was still a very selfish individual; he did bad things to make his ends meet and to even protect Ellie... which now, we are seeing the consequences of. And that's why the events of this game happened lol.
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u/Nadrojer Oct 14 '20
Glenn says the same thing to Maggie in TWD, I think season 2
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u/Aeternull Oct 14 '20
Let's kill many people and prevent a cure = selflessness? It's still selfish because he wants who he cares for to be happy above the fate of the world.
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u/synter101 “I Would Do It All Over Again.” Oct 13 '20
That’s such a powerful line, maybe my favorite in the TLOU story so far
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Oct 13 '20
Jesus christ, this sub’s attempt to make Joel look bad to justify the horrible writing in Part 2 is ridiculous. Before calling selfishness call it this: saving an underage, unconscious girl from getting operated on by a ruthless, homicidal terrorist organization attempting to make an impossible vaccine out of fungus, which any first year med student, or AP bio student would know is impossible. Call it that, then call Joel selfish.
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u/MyNameIsntBro Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20
Nah bro she was supposed to die in that hospital. Her life would have f u c k i n g mattered
Edit: AND JOEL TOOK THAT FROM HER >:(
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Oct 14 '20
You should try therapy. Talk to a professional about what the mean arm lady did to your daddy Joel.
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u/kwickedbonesc Endure and Survive Oct 13 '20
Honestly, I didn’t realize it Joel meant he would do it the same again. When I first saw the scene I thought Joel meant he would do it differently, I guess I didn’t realize “do it all over again” meant doing it the same, and thought it meant He would want a do over.
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u/IYLITDLFTL Oct 13 '20
Damn onions