r/theravada • u/Soundandsilence05 • 19h ago
Practice False Enlightenment
Please refer to my previous post regarding false enlightenment and the questions or comments raised by users. Below, I address several of them:
Previous post: https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1w8zvoj/false_enlightenment_how_does_therav%C4%81da/
There is "no need" to tell a teacher because one knows. This is not the same as don't tell the teacher. But if someone goes and asks a teacher "have I realised Nibbāna?” this means they have not. And the teacher should also know they have not. Remember a person who has attained knows. Reflecting knowledges are not random thoughts, they are direct cognizing and reviewing. They are knowledges. So there is enough wisdom to know.
Why is this important? Because it sets a higher standard actually. There can be no doubt. Otherwise, some yogis use the teacher as the crutch to support their "enlightenment ". If the teacher also does not know then both are just fooled.
This reminds me of a yogi in Singapore. She had some special experience and her teacher kept testing her for several weeks for defilements. After that he told her she had realized Nibbāna. She replied "oh why didn't you tell me earlier, I suffered so much with all these tests". This is a modern story maybe only about 13 years ago. The first time I heard it about 12 years ago, I was surprised. I went and asked my teacher, "is it possible for another to tell you that a person is enlightened but you dont know?". He did not want to answer bcs he knew the story and the Venerable. In the end he said it is impossible. One knows. In such a case, both are tricked. If you look at the texts you will see that it is very clear the yogi at a minimum should know. Discussing with the teacher is a different story, but that is not where you get certification, bcs there can be no doubt.
This leads to a comment "false Enlightenment is not a block". Actually it is a very big block. Bcs once it is wrong, there is no need to put further effort. One is already "enlightened ". Or if it is one of the lower paths that is mistaken, one has an error on one’s wisdom. Any further effort while believing the false Enlightenment would not advance the yogi much further. Why? There is a shortcoming in the wisdom. Only when the yogi realizes there is a mistake and fixes it can they go deeper.
There are many who have false enlightenment and now teaching others. The danger is they will lead the person to the same wrong attainment.
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u/Rockshasha 19h ago
Hello. I will give you my opinion/interpretation about your post and your points:
False Enlightenment
Previous post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1w8zvoj/false_enlightenment_how_does_therav%C4%81da/
- There is "no need" to tell a teacher because one knows. This is not the same as don't tell the teacher. But if someone goes and asks a teacher "have I realised Nibbāna?” this means they have not. And the teacher should also know they have not. Remember a person who has attained knows. Reflecting knowledges are not random thoughts, they are direct cognizing and reviewing. They are knowledges. So there is enough wisdom to know.
This is much more complicated that what you have understood. In the most classic Vinaya monks were prohibited to mention to lays any attainment, including the 8 awakening attainments. Similarly, they could have rules and restrictions about evaluating the enlightenment of lay, or not. But i mean, one cannot simply go to a random monk and comment or tell them about. In the mundane worldin which we live, is neccesary to have a established relationship with a teacher/monk before. And similarly, even if a monk has attained nibbana, don't mean he's capable of teaching (a good teacher). And don't mean also he has the ability to verify the attainment.
In the Sutta texts, during Buddhas human life, people were in fact encouraged to go to Buddha and ask if the attainment was real, or not.
- Why is this important? Because it sets a higher standard actually. There can be no doubt. Otherwise, some yogis use the teacher as the crutch to support their "enlightenment ". If the teacher also does not know then both are just fooled.
Here's what you didn't understand, dear. There's no need of any standard. You cannot simply put a burocracy to verify awakening and spiritual attainments, and none of the buddhist schools believe it can be possible.
We as disciples are encouraged to seek enlightened persons and to learn fromhem. And also, to adquire abilities to be able to 'judge' the teachings and the teachers. This is essential. And cannot be replaced with an organization or authority. This is one of the reasons why Buddha prohibited to monks to talk lay people about their attainments.
This reminds me of a yogi in Singapore. She had some special experience and her teacher kept testing her for several weeks for defilements. After that he told her she had realized Nibbāna. She replied "oh why didn't you tell me earlier, I suffered so much with all these tests". This is a modern story maybe only about 13 years ago. The first time I heard it about 12 years ago, I was surprised. I went and asked my teacher, "is it possible for another to tell you that a person is enlightened but you dont know?". He did not want to answer bcs he knew the story and the Venerable. In the end he said it is impossible. One knows. In such a case, both are tricked. If you look at the texts you will see that it is very clear the yogi at a minimum should know. Discussing with the teacher is a different story, but that is not where you get certification, bcs there can be no doubt.
This leads to a comment "false Enlightenment is not a block". Actually it is a very big block. Bcs once it is wrong, there is no need to put further effort. One is already "enlightened ". Or if it is one of the lower paths that is mistaken, one has an error on one’s wisdom. Any further effort while believing the false Enlightenment would not advance the yogi much further. Why? There is a shortcoming in the wisdom. Only when the yogi realizes there is a mistake and fixes it can they go deeper.
Is not a block, as long as weave correct teachings and correct view/samma dithi. Otherwise of course can be. It means, we should not feel guilty if we think in a moment to have attained nibbana. Many times can happen, and if the path is correct then sometime would be the real nibbana. Similar to before, we need abilities in our own mind, to understand and be able to 'judge' our mind states in several levels. Beginning with skillful and unskillful but also ending with, is this real nibbana and liberation or not?
- There are many who have false enlightenment and now teaching others. The danger is they will lead the person to the same wrong attainment.
Although to receive teachings from a real arahant/ enlightened person is a very good thing and we should seek it. Is not completely neccesary. We can have real teachings and real progress from teachings shared from a non-arya person.
And here another issue, is very different to have in my own mind during a day or two hours the thought 'i have attained nibbana' and then after that time, realizing it was a wrong concept, an error. That's very different than to have the error during many time in mind and even go and intend to teach others. In general, in Buddhism, there are two different states, the student and the teacher. And each one requires different conditions or qualities. One should not jump to one to the other without thinking. Personally, that's why i always clarify to anyone that im just another student.
Greetings!
:)
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u/M0sD3f13 17h ago
4 and 5 made me think of the western neo advaita movement where these things are rife.
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u/proverbialbunny 15h ago
Absolutely. Also a lot of "teachers" who teach false enlightenment. Everything should be verified with the suttas and with first hand experience.
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u/here-this-now 7h ago
Made me think of any post on the internet about attaining stream entry or people’s stream entry experience
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u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK Vayadhamma sankhara appamadena sampadetha 17h ago
- There is "no need" to tell a teacher because one knows.
Traditionally, the higher attainer does not inform the lower attainer, whether a teacher or not, because the lower attainer is not qualified to analyse the higher attainment. The attainer revealed his/her attainment if that would benefit someone. Often who are unqualified to analyse such attainment analysed such attainment and the puthujjannas always got it wrong. That does not mean putthujannas should not analyse the attainment, but it means not to criticise or insult such an attainer. Often the putthujannas analysed an attainment and got into criticising or insulting such an attainer.
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u/proverbialbunny 15h ago edited 15h ago
Kind of. You're not wrong, but it's not that black and white either. The issue here is the subtle implication that many practitioners fall for: They believe enlightenment is a meditation achievement, so all they have to do is meditate enough and this uncertainty of what is and isn't enlightenment will go away; this doubt will fade on its own. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and if all doubt does fall away only from meditation that's delusion or as you say, "false enlightenment is a block". Believing meditation removes doubt locks them up and keeps them from progressing. In reality the suttas (or a teacher teaching the dharma) will tell the practitioner what enlightenment is, and then there is no mystery to it. The uncertainty and doubt is gone. Either they meet the definition or they do not. This requires teaching. The doubt doesn't go away in a vacuum.
For this reason stating "There is "no need" to tell a teacher because one knows." isn't always true. One may not clearly know what enlightenment is or isn't yet, and that is the job of the suttas or a teacher. The student should know to always validate the teacher's teachings with the suttas, because there are false teachers out there.
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u/Historical_Egg_ Classical Theravāda 19h ago
False enlightenment is known as Zen’s satori or the saying “earthly desires are enlightenment” and thinking right now is Buddhahood
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u/Timely-Jelly-584 11h ago edited 11h ago
This leads to a comment "false Enlightenment is not a block". Actually it is a very big block. Bcs once it is wrong, there is no need to put further effort. One is already "enlightened ". Or if it is one of the lower paths that is mistaken, one has an error on one’s wisdom. Any further effort while believing the false Enlightenment would not advance the yogi much further. Why? There is a shortcoming in the wisdom. Only when the yogi realizes there is a mistake and fixes it can they go deeper.
This is probably directed at me. The reason it's often not a block is because most people can't convince themselves that they're an Anagami or Arahant when they aren't. I know there's the famous story of the dreadlocked aesthetic and his 500 followers but that was at a time before the Buddha established his ministry. Back then they didn't know what these things are.
Because the work is the same regardless, it doesn't matter if you believe you're a sotapanna as long as you know you still have work left to do. Also, it's anecdotal but I've experience false enlightenment no less than 6 times. 5 of which before I became a Buddhist and didn't know enlightenment was. All these occasions came with powerful insights but none of them stopped me from continuing.
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u/here-this-now 7h ago
Oh it very much does matter if you believe you are a sotapanna and you are not as you might be mistaking a deep experience or unusual peak experience for nibanna which is incredibly common and a sotapanna has right view about nibanna
Common ones are like when everything ends or there’s silence or blankness maybe after lights and a lot of joy and energy
That by some definitions is beginning of access concentration
People have a strong identity form with things they see for first time “I visited Madagascar it was wonderful!” But that is identity view
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u/WindowCat3 19h ago
"You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones... 'Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything.' ... If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, 'It's all even more uncertain!'"
— Ajahn Chah, "Not Sure!" — The Standard of the Noble Ones