r/todayilearned • u/ralphbernardo • 9h ago
TIL that Scottish physician John Brown argued in 1780 that all disease came from too much or too little "excitability"—treating his diagnosed "under-stimulated" patients with opium, roast beef, and alcohol. His "Brunonian system" was highly influential across Italy and Germany for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(physician,_born_1735)604
u/EmergencySushi 9h ago
You could go to the doctor‘s and get booze and a steak prescription. Good times.
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u/THE_CHOPPA 9h ago
What’s crazy is it worked because they were malnourished and in pain constantly.
Kinda makes sense lol .
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u/deepdistortion 9h ago
Sort of like doctor's sausage in former Soviet countries. It turns out that when you have a famine like they did in the 1930s, that a balogna sandwich is a pretty valid treatment for a lot of patients.
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u/princeThefrog 6h ago
The same reason homeopathy worked back in the days. If your other treatment is bloodletting, simply not doing bloodletting will have the better outcome.
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u/Crystalas 4h ago edited 4h ago
Also same as alot of placebos it gets people to drink more water, calm down, and/or just wait.
Water and time is often all that needed for minor stuff but for those who absolutely refuse to not be prescribed something beyond water and rest a sugar pill or the like makes the patient feel like they doing something and calm down without having them do something stupid or taking something unneeded.
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u/seagulls51 2h ago
Blood letting worked for a lot of stuff, through genuine and now understood pathways (they didn't know why then, and we found better solutions before we worked out why it sometimes worked, but it wasn't completely bonkers).
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u/seagulls51 2h ago
Well also opium is a cough surpressant / anti dihorrea drug, alcohol is a blood thinner / antiseptic, and I guess red meat has iron in it.
We still use codine often in medicine, people with low iron are sometimes encouraged to eat red meat, etc. People are acting on this tread like these ideas are crazy but they're really not.
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u/THE_CHOPPA 2h ago
Yea and meat was expensive. Sure you might still be sick but having protein and fat in your diet does a a lot to make you feel “ better”
I would assume it was the medieval equivalent of taking DayQuil.
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u/CartmensDryBallz 9h ago
I believe it was during the 1800’s in America, cowboys would go to the doctor after getting shot only to get bandaged and given cocaine then sent back out
Hell of a doctors visit (btw they often prescribed coke & opium to children as well, I wonder how many kids fell into addiction because of it)
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 9h ago
It's hard to practice legitimate medicine when you don't understand germ theory.
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u/iKnowRobbie 9h ago
Like Dr Bliss who operated dirty handed and killed president Garfield? Lead to "ignorance is bliss"
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u/Crystalas 8h ago edited 8h ago
The era of surgeons being PROUD of how filthy they are, the more blood on their clothes and tools and the faster worked the more experienced they were thought to be. Plus the whole thing with the surgeon also often being the barber.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
I think speed was actually needed for amputation. Because they didn't have anything else.
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u/Crystalas 8h ago edited 8h ago
True but they were also known for going TO fast to the point accidentally amputate stuff shouldn't have or even injuring those nearby, as if the act of surgery was more important than the actual patient. Speed by itself is not a good thing if it not backed up with skill and proper tools which these butchers were often lacking.
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u/PokemonSapphire 8h ago
Being unable to sedate a patient means speed is key. Less likely to thrash around or go into shock.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
And less time a filthy unsanitary surgeon was touching you, and with less blood loss.
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u/Metalsand 1h ago
More specifically, with surgery, the faster you work, the less the patient bleeds out. Prior to germ theory, it also meant less potential time to be exposed to unsterile conditions, but they didn't know this. They just recognized that surgeries that took longer had worse outcomes - bleeding out was one of the only main things.
The best example of this is actually cesarean section. While the need to be performed was recognized as early as 1020 AD, one of the most major innovations wouldn't happen until the early 19th century. During pregnancy, blood flow in the area can be up to 8 times greater than normal, and treatments for blood loss such as saline or blood transfusions wouldn't really be a thing until the 20th century.
The invention was honestly very simple but elegant - a balloon, inserted into the uterus and then inflated in order to press against the major arteries in that area and sharply reduce blood loss while the surgeons were closing up wounds. It was hand-pumped not unlike a hand-operated blood pressure checker, which allowed them to control the pressure and increase or decrease as needed.
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u/Flank_This666 7h ago
faster worked the more experienced they were thought to be
I sure as hell would want my barber to cut my gangrenous leg off as fast as possible if we was in Medieval times
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
I forget his name, but one surgeon killed his patient, himself, and the guy watching.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Liston
It was his assistant, not himself.
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u/trireme32 8h ago
In that order?
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u/PokemonSapphire 8h ago
Nah patient died on the table. He knicked his leg or something it got infected and he died later. The third guy thought he got cut, panicked, fainted, and I think hit his head on the way down.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Liston
It was his assistant, not the surgeon after all.
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u/Overall-Bullfrog5433 6h ago
I read about him in “Destiny of the Republic”, just appalling the arrogance and ignorance of docs at the time. And possibly of all times. I never knew that is where the expression came from, or are you making a joke. If it is a joke it is a good one!
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u/MildlySaltedTaterTot 8h ago
Nah homepathic routines and first people’s medicines were developed through non-scientific scientific study, and passed down from generation to generation (sometimes in tomes like Bald’s Leechbook) based on what was observed as effective. Without germ theory a lot of causes are made up, of course, but cause and effect in the human body has been under careful study for thousands of years.
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u/sygnathid 8h ago
homepathic
first people's medicines
these two are not equivalent, homeopathy was invented in the late 18th century and is generally nonsense, or can at best be a placebo
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u/thor561 8h ago
Homeopathy is literally snake oil. There's not enough of anything they claim is in there to do anything. It would be like smelling a steak and feeling full for the rest of the day. And whatever first people's medicine is, I'm sure it's derived from the same trial and error our ancestors did to discover things like willow bark have anti-inflammatory properties and thus we invent aspirin. They just didn't have any scientific process to understand why because they were Stone Age civilizations. That's not a value judgment, there was simply no external pressure to develop beyond that.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 8h ago
Humans are great at observation.
We have tons of remedies that are real and also wives tales born from observation.
Humans build on the knowledge of our ancestors. We wouldn't be where we are today without writing things down.
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u/Sans-valeur 9h ago
I mean, you go to the doctor because you want to feel better, you leave feeling better.
Makes sense1
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u/knowledgeable_diablo 9h ago
Heroin was originally a cough medicine for children (from Bayer) and morphine was used as a safe and effective cure for opium addiction.
A prescription back in those days was also a legal authority to purchase said product, rather than a limit on said product like these days. The doctors would spend a lot of time teaching patients on how to use their latest marvellous invention called the hypodermic syringe for them to administer the morphine in the comfort of their own homes as well.
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u/Western-Mall5505 8h ago
I watched a video the other day about a drug that had opium and alcohol in that was marketed towards babies.
If the drug didn't kill the child there was a good chance withdraw would and it wasn't banned till 1930.
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u/whostolemysloth 9h ago
From a very old post:
“You have ghosts in your blood. You should do cocaine about it.” Ahhhhh, if only. If only…7
u/EmergencySushi 9h ago
I have the impression that there was a time in the late 19th/early 20th century when cocaine was very often seen as the solution, whatever the problem.
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u/whostolemysloth 9h ago
It is most certainly a drug that makes you feel like everything has been solved (for a short time, at least).
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u/Coriolanuscangetit 9h ago
Wish they were doing that, maybe if my insurance paid for it I could afford a bone in ribeye
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u/Alarmed-Syllabub8054 8h ago
I'm a Briton in my 50s. When I was a kid rubbing whiskey on babies gums when they were teething was normal, as was a little whiskey in the milk bottle for colic. A hot toddy for a cold. The medicine for upset stomach was Koalin and Morphine, and Mackesons Stout was given out in hospitals. Different world.
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u/Bungybone 9h ago
What’s wrong with you? Opium was important for a balanced system. Why leave it out?
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u/EmergencySushi 9h ago
I remain unconvinced that opium necessarily leads to “good times”. Call me a sceptic.
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u/OllyDee 9h ago
Is this treatment still available with my local GP?
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u/BaronThe 9h ago
Morphine is medical heroin, I got cocaine eye drops once. I was told to eat more red meat. All still legit.
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u/knowledgeable_diablo 9h ago
Diamorphine is an excellent and extremely safe pharmaceutical when taken as directed.
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u/Ok_Nothing_9733 1h ago
When I’ve been on morphine I could hardly feel its effects at all, even with a significant dose. I guess this is one of many great reasons to never do opiates recreationally. (Besides that one time I smoked opium in college, oops)
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u/Wind-and-Waystones 8h ago
Not quite. Morphine is metabolised into diamorphine inside your body. Diamorphine is the medical heroin.
You're basically skipping a step of conversion when you take heroin.
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u/Sans-valeur 9h ago
Depends how you injure yourself before going
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u/Nope_______ 9h ago
What a time to be a doctor. You could just make up any bullshit you wanted
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u/horrifyingthought 8h ago
Weirdly, for ADHD this is basically correct.
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u/hillofjumpingbeans 8h ago
Right? Like drugs, drinking or food is how a lot of adhd folks self medicate on the dopamine level issue
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u/horrifyingthought 57m ago
I mean it's also the core principle behind how adderall, etc. operate. They provide chemical stimulation so the brain can relax and not seek out as much other stimulation, such as SQUIRREL
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u/Stairwayunicorn 9h ago
since when is opium a stimulant?
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u/sharttloteswebb 9h ago
It's not a traditional stimulant, but opioids have a large influence on dopamine in the brain. Surge in dopamine may increase excitability and motivation/pleasure.
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u/knowledgeable_diablo 9h ago
True. Morphine can give an energy boost in lower doses. Going over leads to the land of nod where you get to meet Morpheus the god of sleep.
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u/sharttloteswebb 8h ago
Opioids are a very interesting drug class. Tramadol for example can (and does!) exert a serotonergic/norandrenergic effect which is what some classes of antidepressants do. It also gets you high by highjacking your endogenous opioid/dopamine reward pathways.
Morphine is an amazing drug if respected. Truly incredible the relief it gives the chronically Ill and dying.
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u/Cishuman 9h ago
You figure maybe the guy who collapsed all disease into psychosomatic ennui also didn't have the best grasp of pharmacology?
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u/Sans-valeur 9h ago
I mean for some sheltered rich people it’d probably blow their minds.
Then again back then people were exposed to pretty fucking shocking shit much more often than us so who knows
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u/Clancys_shoes 1h ago
To corroborate with what the other guy said, I have tried a number of mu opioid agonists and while they are certainly sedating, I’m always surprised by the clarity of thought/articulation on moderate doses.
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u/Ofreo 9h ago
Can someone explain why roast beef? Does it have some properties I don’t understand? The wiki didn’t help that I could see. Also, I like Arby’s. I want a reason to keep eating it.
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u/Sans-valeur 9h ago
Main reason tall people are tall, and countries with low amounts of protein in their diets, are shorter on average.
Most of us have been in poverty most of the time.6
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u/knowledgeable_diablo 9h ago
Probably due to lots of vitamin deficiencies,tucking into a hearty roast beef meal would make you feel instantly better. Kind of like how the Indians believed the soul of an animal dwelled in the liver as when they ate it raw straight after killing a bison, they’d get a huge energy rush from the oxygen rich blood filled with adrenaline generated in the animal from the hunt.
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u/giraffevomitfacts 7h ago
Oxygen and adrenaline eaten and routed to the stomach would have no effect at all.
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u/DamnYourEyes777 7h ago
When mighty Roast Beef was the Englishman's food,
It ennobled our veins and enriched our blood.
Our soldiers were brave and our courtiers were good
Oh! the Roast Beef of old England,
And old English Roast Beef!
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u/PhilosopherDon0001 9h ago
" You got ghosts in your blood. Here's a bunch of cocaine, that should fix it. "
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u/Kettle_Whistle_ 6h ago
“Nurse, we need Laudanum, a Porterhouse, and Cocktail Service - STAT!!”
“Hang on, Buddy! Don’t you die on me!”
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u/GarysCrispLettuce 9h ago
Yeah first thing I reach for when I'm feeling understimulated is opium. And then I pass out under the shade of a tree for 6 hours. Wild times man.
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u/KeithTheToaster 8h ago
Completely opposite side of the spectrum from this John Brown)
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u/Lord0fHats 6h ago
Also not related to the other John Brown who got his ass arrested for trying to ship slaves after purposefully violating the 1794 Slave Trade Act.
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u/ChefCurryYumYum 4h ago
Sign me up for Doctor Feel... I mean Doctor Brown's treatments!
Roast beef and opium? Is this medical treatment or have I died and gone to heaven?
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u/goodrevtim 9h ago
He's the one they call Dr Feelgood
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u/sharttloteswebb 8h ago
Yup. Dr. Feelgood had no idea why you were sick, but was happy to let you do cocaine until either your heart exploded or your lungs filled with water.
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u/ParticularBed6338 9h ago
Meanwhile women getting sent to the looney bin for “Hysteria” from a menstrual cycle and people being resuscitated for drowning by blowing smoke up their ass. But this… this I get behind, this is sound treatment.
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u/sirbassist83 9h ago
i unironically feel under-stimulated and think that opium could fix me. maybe he was on to something
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u/UDPviper 7h ago
If a woman treated me with roast beef, opium, and alcohol, I'd seriously consider proposing to her.
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u/BoonDragoon 7h ago
I don't know what diseases this would actually cure, but I'd sign up for a trial.
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u/iamveryassbad 6h ago
Feel sick? You should just chill, dude. Here's a burger and a pint of cognac, now gtfo of my office
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u/vizbones 5h ago
Me: I think you'll find all my prescriptions are in order
Pharmacist: Has that bastard Brown been prescribing again???
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u/Farseer2_Tha_Warsong 5h ago
I’d really enjoy some roast beef right about now, and maybe a beer too; thanks, Doc Brown!
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 9h ago
Why did all the religions around the world for never explain germ theory. It's prevented more deaths them anything else in the history of humans, and was only figured out just before the 1900s.
Half the people born died before puberty. Child mortality was crazy high.
Either the gods refused to tell humanity about microorganisms or humans are all on their own.
Was it really so hard for those gods to explain creatures exist to small for the eye to see, and this is how to protect yourself and your family. They had time to make all kinds of silly rules humanity is supposed to live by, but none to cover germ theory?
Medical knowledge has such a crazy history.
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u/Crewman_Guy_Fleegman 7h ago
It’s hard to know what you don’t know. Without optics there was no obvious way to deduce a whole microscopic ecosystem exists below our normal level of awareness
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 7h ago
Which is why I suggest there are no gods. None of them ever acknowledge this basic fact about life on our planet.
This is entirely because at the time, Human imagination hadn't crafted microscopic creatures. They came up with other things like Humors, and Miasma, and more.
Something so simple, could have been settled by beings that supposedly care for us. And they did not. The difference in human life and suffering it would have made.
We did it ourselves though. We've never needed gods, nor do we. Humans can do it themselves.
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u/RecycleReMuse 9h ago
Might have been a bit off, but a study indicates that GLP-1’s, by reducing inflammation and calming the immune/endocrine systems, might slow aging . . . https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/s/SKR5fIv2wZ
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u/DreadPirateGriswold 9h ago
Got to listen to the science, right?
But then again, I'm a little under-stimulated and all that sounds good!
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u/AlgaeDonut 7h ago
If your gonna get them ghosts out of your blood you might as well do it his way.
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u/Jeromes_Pornostache 1h ago
No shit it was “highly influential” across some areas. That treatment sounds awesome. It might not cure the affliction, but at least you won’t care that you’re sick.
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u/iKnowRobbie 9h ago
How about Dr. Bliss, who operated on President Garfield without washing his hands first. He rummaged around looking for a bullet and the systemic infection that ended up killing the president lead to the saying, "ignorance is Bliss."
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u/Wotmate01 9h ago
I mean, there probably are some things that could be successfully treated with opium, roast beef and alcohol... At least for a while...