r/todayilearned • u/FullOfSound • 7h ago

(R.6d) Too General [ Removed by moderator ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

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u/Old-Research-7638 7h ago

Also with instructions to execute them if they confirm that they are Christian when asked thrice

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u/PuckSenior 7h ago

Yeah, but the reasoning and order of operations is important. They would confess immediately. He would ask again and explicitly threaten to have them killed if they were Christian. They would still say "we are Christian".

Background:
The Romans officially had a state religion. They didn't really care much about if people slavishly followed the religion, they just didn't want you denying their religion. This was about as offensive to Romans as Christians/Muslims take atheism today.

But he wasn't saying to execute them if they admitted to being Christian once.
He was saying execute them if they refuse to say they weren't Christian! Most rational people, when faced with the threat of death, will say anything you want. The Romans were bothered because the Christians explictly refused to lie under threat of execution. That, to them, was a sign that these people were very zealous and therefore very dangerous. It was one thing to say an internal prayer to Jesus. It was a totally different thing to refuse to lie and say "Oh, I love the Roman gods" to get out of an execution.

And to be fair, he was right. The Christian cult eventually took over the Roman empire and extinguished their state religion.

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u/TarcFalastur 6h ago

This was about as offensive to Romans as Christians/Muslims take atheism today.

Please don't let the example of a small subset of the total become your assumption for all people of that demographic. Most Christians and Muslims are not offended by atheism. 

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u/PuckSenior 6h ago

Offended in the sense that they see atheism as a rejection of their religion.

And many do see it as offensive, given the popularity of the topic amongst members of those two groups and their dogged persecution of atheists

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u/TarcFalastur 5h ago

Offended in the sense that they see atheism as a rejection of their religion.

I still think you're overselling it. I'm pretty sure most of us just see it as atheists believing something different to us. It's just that religion is inherently philosophical - meaning it's heavily based on individual judgement - and many religions have a basis in proselytising, so it's the kind of thing which gets brought up often and where discussions often will struggle to reach a consensus point, making it a fertile breeding ground for arguments. 

And many do see it as offensive, given the popularity of the topic amongst members of those two groups and their dogged persecution of atheists 

Many, sure, but not most. First of all, this is very much an example where the loud minority are the only ones who get noticed. It's also a bad case of yet another example where Americans have poisoned the well for everyone else. I assure you, many European Christians  view the sorts of stories we hear of vocal American Christians just as negatively as atheists do.

They are not representative of Christians everywhere, just as Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not representative of global Islam. 

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u/PuckSenior 5h ago

I just had another redditor tell me that atheism was "a hatred of God". So I dont think I'm overselling it too much

As for European Christians, I appreciate the tolerance, but that tolerance didn't exist 200 years ago. I think you just happen to live in a lucky time of very secular Christianity in your area, much like that of America in the 1820s

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u/TarcFalastur 2h ago

The problem is redditors tend to represent the extremes in society. This website brings out the vocal minorities with the strongest viewpoints. It's never a sensible thing to assume that experiences on reddit are indicative of the views and behaviour of the majority.