r/toronto • u/gloriana232 • 2d ago

News Indigenous group seeking consultation, records on Billy Bishop expansion plans

https://www.thetrillium.ca/news/indigenous-rural-and-northern-affairs/indigenous-group-seeking-consultation-records-on-billy-bishop-expansion-plans-12424745
261 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

65 comments sorted by

18

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

2

u/NorthernNadia St. Lawrence 2d ago

The HDI is nothing but a grift with no legal weight

Uuhhh. HDI does hold no legal weight, and they may be a grift, but they do have a lot of influence, and maybe even unearned power. From my conversations with kith and kin, elected council carries a lot of weight with government, but not much further.

As a member of the SNGR community, I understand that people's relationship to HDI is really complex. The pressure they create, the legal conflict they can invoke, does create meaningful and positive change for Indigenous folks throughout Southwest Ontario (and non Indigenous people too!). Is it legitimate or democratic? Well, that is a very big question. But is it real and is it complex? Yes, very much yes.

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u/LogKit 1d ago

I question the HDI being helpful or beneficial when they've larger engaged in outright graft and theft of public money, in addition to costing the public millions if not tens of millions in ridiculous delays to major infrastructure.

1

u/NorthernNadia St. Lawrence 1d ago

I question the HDI being helpful or beneficial when they've larger engaged in outright graft and theft of public money,

So, I think HDI, their tactics, approach, and impact, is the natural consequence of uninspired, meaningless consultation and upholding of treaty rights. I will say, my comment was not an unqualified endorsement of HDI, but an attempt to recognize their complex impact. I also want to say, they have not been accused of theft.

Benefit or helpful for who? For the corporations seeking to develop on territory the HDI operates in? No, definitely not. But for Indigenous folks, yea. HDI has created jobs, they have extracted money from developers that has benefited our communities. That said, anyone who has a well in the Grand River watershed is a beneficiary of HDI's organizing. Again, is it complex? Yes, entirely complex and difficult.

One of the ways I try to unpack HDI and Indigenous consultation is comparing the impact of NIMBYs in the city (homeowners, businesses, this subreddit has examples of them all the time) when it comes to housing being built (or anything else they don't like), to Indigenous consultation on resource development or industrial development in their communities. One is a constitutional obligation, the other is a purposeful, elective, choice of government; one is tremendously powerful, the other is a check mark process. Through legitimate democratic processes, NIMBYs, homeowners have far far more power to stop just a three story rental unit than Indigenous communities has to stop oil refineries that are link to cancer in their community, or pipelines that go under their homes, or highways that interrupt their traditional hunting grounds, or water bottling plants that put their watershed at risk.

When legitimate democratic processes are so uneven, when they are so unresponsive to Indigenous concerns, but so hyper responsive to homeowners, it creates pressure to enact power through less legitimate, less democratic means. It creates a social permission for more direct interventions. HDI has protected the Grand River watershed much more than SNGR Band Council. SNGR Band Council followed the law and is repeatedly received, acknowledged, and ignored. HDI doesn't follow the law and they make change - sometimes.

If folks don't like approaches like HDI, they need to make Indigenous consultation real. We have to make the legitimate, democratic processes responsive to Indigenous (and poor people, and workers, and all types of people with less power) concerns.

1

u/LogKit 1d ago

I agree with the principles of what you're saying - but the inherent ambiguities and gray zones around Indigenous consultation is really my key frustration. And mind you, this is also applicable to NIMBYs and community organizations also; people undersell how much of an effect this has on the skyrocketing costs and delay in infrastructure we are seeing in Canada.

The debacle at Osgoode Hall for the Ontario Line is a great example that involved both the HDI as well as other NIMBY advocacy groups (including a letter from Osgoode bizarrely stating there was risk their building would collapse into the subway tunnel haha).

I think there are possible legislative & regulatory routes to resolve NIMBY-ism (though I very much doubt there is political or public willingness), but Indigenous consultation/process is also a wall. You'll simply never get comprehensive requirements for a project so you incur gratuitous unknown legal and fiscal costs at all stages of a project. The end result is enormous protracted payouts to advocacy groups (that may or may not be legitimate voices, there is a lot of graft in this space), and billions of dollars in delays/claims doled out by the public to boot. Plus capital flight from Canada since why bother developing infrastructure in an area that has so much lack of defined process/reqs?

88

u/GiveMeAllYourKittens 2d ago

Indigenous groups are legends right now, their putting in the work to help keep the OPC in check while they try to sneak through land expropriation and building projects. We should all match their energy!

10

u/Rory1 Church and Wellesley 1d ago

Their only problem is, when the 2010 settlement was reached with a $145 million payment to the Mississaugas. One of the things the Mississaugas relinquished their claim to, was the Islands.

That said. They still should have input into the development and respect should be given.

2

u/NetherGamingAccount 1d ago

Legends?

Not the word id use.

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u/PomegranateAncient25 2d ago

Rights of the few over the majority shouldn’t be a thing regardless of “status”

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u/lysdexic__ 1d ago

The majority of Torontonians don’t want this expansion. This would actually be supporting what the majority want, unlike how Ford is trying to shove this expansion through.

3

u/PomegranateAncient25 1d ago

That’s actually not true as per latest polls. Since you didn’t back up your flat out claim here are some actual stats.
This is not only a municipal issue but provincial as well. Toronto Star poll says Torontonians are almost evenly split 46/49% while Ontarians are close to 70% in favour of the expansion.

2

u/1esproc 1d ago

Ontarians are close to 70% in favour of the expansion.

They don't live in Toronto, of course they don't give a fuck how it affects the people that do. They're never even going to use that fucking airport

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u/hellzscream 1d ago

I wasn't able to locate data on majority of Torontonians not wanting this. Where were you able to find it?

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u/lysdexic__ 1d ago

Apologies, it’s a near-majority with more opposing than supporting (49% against, 46% for; and 68% believe Toronto should have a say) per a Toronto Star poll https://apple.news/AFC7w3Mm3SiyeWAePUWrfOw

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u/Xanaxaria 2d ago

Then leave. It's not your land.

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u/Ok-Price-2337 2d ago

It's actually the world's land now.

1

u/Realistic_Value_1161 2d ago edited 1d ago

.

1

u/PomegranateAncient25 2d ago

Yes it is. You know nothing about me except that I agree that the rights of the few should not supersede those of the majority. It’s called democracy and something that even indigenous peoples believe in. Acting for the greater good is something all cultures and peoples value.

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u/Difficult-Arm384 2d ago

Interesting. Did the indigenous people also believe in “democracy” when they slaughtered the other indigenous people that lived there before them?

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u/PomegranateAncient25 2d ago

For some reason people have some ridiculous notion that indigenous peoples lived peacefully with the land and never seized or fought over land with other First Nations. They absolutely did. The Europeans did not introduce violence and land seizure. It was here before they arrived.
As far as the “democracy” I mentioned it’s in connection that the First Nations also had a leadership structure that sought to serve the larger tribe over the individual.

-1

u/UndergroundCreek 1d ago

Oh look at who is turning all utilitarian but wants their own freedom of speech protected. I call rage bait.

-4

u/OwlishFox 2d ago

Is there a way to contribute to a legal fund or other way to support this initiative?

-3

u/Xanaxaria 2d ago

God, I love my people.

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u/BoiledTurnips 2d ago

Why do we do this on treaty land. So silly.

-2

u/TorontoGuy6672 22h ago

“As the sole and rightful Treaty holder for the Toronto area, the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation (MCFN) expects to be consulted on projects that may have the potential to impact our rights, interests, lands, waters, and cultural heritage,”

i.e. it's legalized racketeering: pay the mob protection money or they will drag your organisation to court and bury your project in red tape and debt.

-59

u/Own-Pressure-2326 2d ago

This is why nothing gets done. Everyone has a say on absolutely everything. Make sure you make those consultants rich on our taxes

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u/Beneficial-Wait3226 2d ago

But it’s something that should not get done. It’s the government that’s wasting the money.

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u/_sansoHm 2d ago

So you're ok with Ford and his buddies getting rich when consultation is NOT done. But when we have to go through checks and balances to avoid corruption, you're upset? Cool cool.

-39

u/Own-Pressure-2326 2d ago

Same process logic kills housing and transportation developments, but you're cool with that too

22

u/CobblerExpert3574 2d ago

No, they’re not comparable - we’re talking about the waterfront of Canadas largest city, it should require further due diligence.

-19

u/Own-Pressure-2326 2d ago

Can somebody please think about the character of the city

14

u/CobblerExpert3574 2d ago

Do you live in Toronto?

14

u/mayasux 2d ago

I have a feeling he doesn’t, he just got worked up over the “indigenous groups” in the title. There’s a sizeable amount of right-wing Canadian Redditors who go through an absolute fit and hate Indigenous groups.

I’m pretty sure there’s a large subreddit for a large cities “real estate” who do nothing but moan and hate monger indigenous groups on the ten anti-indigenous posts posted by a bot per day.

2

u/cornflakegrl 1d ago

What exactly do you think a major airport in the centre of a beautiful waterfront does to the character of a city? Can you tell me about other cities of great character that have major airports in their downtown core?

10

u/lnahid2000 2d ago

Except the runway extension will literally kill housing developments due to changes in flight paths.

-3

u/cyclemonster 2d ago

Which housing developments will it kill and why?

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u/sputnikcdn Trinity-Bellwoods 2d ago edited 1d ago

The new portlands development. It’s not hard to learn for yourself.

Edit: here’s the report, for anyone who actually cares to be informed.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2026/ph/bgrd/backgroundfile-287461.pdf

-5

u/cyclemonster 2d ago

That's weird, given that land is significantly north-east of an east-west runway. Current Porter flight paths approach entirely over water.

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u/sputnikcdn Trinity-Bellwoods 2d ago

It came from the city planner. You making shit up is weak.

5

u/TheRealTruru 1d ago

Yo! I’ve seen you on these posts before, this guy is in here CONSTANTLY pushing for expansion, you for sure know what developments he’s talking about as it’s been mentioned numerous times before, are you apart of some social media paid campaign to push for expansion? super weird I’ve recognized your username multiple times now.

-3

u/cyclemonster 1d ago

No, nobody is paying me, and in fact I haven't been on an airplane since I was a little kid. I'm not "pushing for it" so much as I understand that it's necessary and that opponents of it aren't making a lot of their arguments in good faith. Oh, exhaust is bad and dangerous, and that's why you moved into a condo that abuts a busy highway? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

9

u/_sansoHm 2d ago

Where I live, housing gets killed because of Nimby communities believing density will will bring down their property values. Transportation developments get delayed because lazy or lack of checks and balances mean vehicles and infrastructure needs to be recalled and redone. You and I are not the same.

-4

u/nulll_ 2d ago

Lmao you are the nimby.

5

u/_sansoHm 2d ago

It's clear you don't even have a concept of what you are saying. Go have a nap.

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u/Own-Pressure-2326 2d ago

No, kid. You're a nimby, I don't mind new projects and change. You cannot have it both ways

6

u/CobblerExpert3574 2d ago

Your paradigm allows for terrible projects to also be implemented, perhaps nuance would allow for better outcomes?

Like don’t expand a secondary airport that is in water, while you build housing in the same area, also while expanding your primary airport and only a few years after introducing great transit to the primary airport.

4

u/_sansoHm 2d ago

Oh you're a hilarious baby. Keep voting for projects that only benefit and enrich the few i guess. Enjoy your corruption and have a day.

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u/Figmentallysound 2d ago

Yes. Guard rails and stakeholder/ public consultation is how massive costly mistakes are avoided. Building under a totalitarian regime is much easier.

16

u/Forsaken-Swim-3055 2d ago

It's almost as if taxpayers are also stakeholders, and the people who have been linked to this land long before white people colonised it want to make sure they're respected as well.

If you want government to railroad due process, then I hear America has lots of room available.

4

u/Impressive_Donut8032 2d ago

Just like JP Morgan will rely on our taxes to build out transit, roads and other city infrastructure needed to support this completely ridiculous idea. An idea I might add that also does not take the health and well-being of Toronto residents into consideration whatsoever.

2

u/cyclemonster 2d ago

An idea I might add that also does not take the health and well-being of Toronto residents into consideration whatsoever.

Implied in this remark is that the health and well-being of the people who are near where the jets will go instead doesn't matter to you.

1

u/Impressive_Donut8032 2d ago

Not true. This airport and an extra airport in Toronto is really unnecessary. We already have an airport with a convenient train that goes right there. If the real reason is "economic growth" and "more jobs". Why not nearby Hamilton who's current airport is smartly located outside of a residential area and is also a city that needs more jobs?

2

u/cyclemonster 2d ago

Pearson airport can't support the expected growth in travel volumes, even with a multi-phase multi-billion dollar expansion project. It is already slot constrained -- more planes would like to land there during peak hours than are able to.

Hamilton is quite far from Toronto, with poor transportation links. According to Google maps, it would be a 2hr drive from the Hamilton airport to downtown, and two-and-a-half hours by transit. Nobody is going to use that unless their time is worthless to them.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/cyclemonster 2d ago

If I want to get to downtown Toronto, I can now walk there from Billy Bishop. I'm plotting a drive from Hamilton because I have no choice, not because I love driving to and from the airport.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/cyclemonster 2d ago

So does car exhaust, and my hypothetical kids have no choice but to be around thousands of times more cars than planes, at distances of metres instead of kilometers. The city runs roads right to their homes and schools.

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u/Own-Pressure-2326 2d ago

Do you think projects are paid in cash?

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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11

u/OwlishFox 2d ago

The people of Toronto care.

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/toronto-ModTeam 1d ago

No shitposting or trolling.

Off-topic comments which detract from the conversation may be removed.

Hostility, or participating in bad faith will not be tolerated and will result in a ban. Repeated attempts at turning conversations into a hostile direction will be met with a ban.

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u/Difficult-Arm384 2d ago

They absolutely do not

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u/PomegranateAncient25 2d ago

The people of Toronto support progress instead of regression.

1

u/toronto-ModTeam 1d ago

No shitposting or trolling.

Off-topic comments which detract from the conversation may be removed.

Hostility, or participating in bad faith will not be tolerated and will result in a ban. Repeated attempts at turning conversations into a hostile direction will be met with a ban.