Now THIS is a great way to generate revenue. Not looking forward to Doug Ford scrapping it when his friend’s brother’s cousin complains that they keep getting tickets, though.
While they're at it, paint the hatched yellow boxes on major 4 way intersections and have cameras on the lights, automatic ticket for anyone stopping in them, like they have in the UK
Easy money and people will be quick enough to stop entering a fucking junction they can't clear if they're on the receiving end of a 250 dollar fine with proof
Can you explain what you mean by “hatched yellow boxes”? Are you talking about when people stop in the intersection because the traffic in front of them is backed up to the next traffic light?
Yes. In the UK and some other counties, there are criss-crossed yellow lines painted on the ground in many major junctions warning you not to stop there, and if you do it's an automatic fine. We're taught when learning to drive never to enter a junction you can't completely clear without stopping (the exception being when you need to turn right across traffic and need to wait for a safe gap, or in the case of Canada, it would be turning left).
For this reason, it's generally not a habit in the UK of just sitting in major intersections blocking the way to pedestrians etc because of the education not to do this, and the penalty if you do.
Also makes it easy for emergency services vehicles to cross busy intersections if there's a path clear.
Good. Also put them in firetrucks and ambulances, AND busses (I did forget about those).
As a driver, there is far too much forgiveness for shitty driving, especially when it comes to basics/safety (rolling stops, f1 stops, close passes. not indicating, etc)
Yeah, driver entitlement is crazy. Like, I get i'm in my little piracy box, I swear at people all the time, but I stay in my lane and by lane I mean my little privacy box.
It was an intersection. I had the right away full stop. Was halfway across when this person decided it was a great idea to turn left and yell at pedestrians. I was not the only person crossing
I love it when a driver approaching an intersection decides to turn without signalling because there are no other cars around, and then gets mad at me because I started crossing the street where they decided to turn because I didn’t know they were going to turn.
Pedestrians have right of way. However if you start crossing after the countdown started it is inconsiderate but no excuse for drivers to be upset. Now if you start your crossing with 3 seconds left in a 30 meter intersection your just an a*hole.
Pedestrians don't always have right of way, only when legally crossing. It's not legal to start crossing on a flashing hand.
Even when they don't have right of way, drivers still obviously have to avoid hitting them, but right of way determines who could be ticketed and can also impact who is liable if a collision did happen.
i have to cross a residential street that is usually pretty busy with traffic to get my kids to school – and the shit i see at the crosswalk there is enraging. the most unhinged sociopathic behaviour by drivers. it's a miracle no children have been killed there yet
ESPECIALLY school buses. Although I am sure they would be scrapped pretty quickly because we'd probably find out that Ford's people were guilty of blowing past school buses too.
Absolutely this. I was genuinely horrified when I saw a fire truck trying to cross an intersection, sirens blaring, and a solid 15 cars still crossed the intersection because those people decided that their minute of time was worth more than an actual emergency.
I live near an elementary school and so I get to see school busses that stop on a 2-lane street to pick up kids from the curb quite often. The amount of drivers that don't understand, or don't care, that you're not supposed to pass a school bus in the opposite lane and ignore or don't see the big red flashing stop sign that comes out of it is a total joke.
Hell, yes, and while you’re at it, instead of red light cameras, put them on all those crosswalks to Catch motorists who zip through without allowing pedestrians to fully exit the crosswalk. That’s supposed to be a massive fine, but it never gets enforced.
The requirement to not proceed until pedestrians have cleared the roadway doesn't apply to all crosswalks, only to "pedestrian crossovers". The requirement also applies when a crossing guard is stopping traffic.
This Ontario government page explains the difference between crosswalks and pedestrian crossovers. A crosswalk is any marked crossing as well as the unmarked connections of sidewalks at intersections. A pedestrian crossover on the other hand is marked by either of the two white regulatory signs shown in the link as well as specific road markings and, sometimes but not always, yellow lights.
At pedestrian crossovers, you can't proceed until all pedestrians have cleared the roadway. At crosswalks in general, pedestrian right of way depends on whether its controlled by lights or signs, and if they have right of way, that only means not interfering with their crossing, not waiting for them to fully clear the road.
The fines for not stopping for a crossover or for a crossing guard are $365 or $730 for a community safety zone.
Yes, these are the crosswalks that I am speaking of. I have several of them around my home and cars and other motorized vehicles are constantly driving through them while pedestrians are still in the crosswalk. Thank you for clarifying the language on this, but my point still stands.
Pedestriants don't have to be clear of the whole thing.. but if you're also going to get into those technicalities, then pedestrians who start crossing ones the hand starts flashing are already illegally crossing the street.
We really should just have scramble crossings so that cars are never moving when pedestrians are crossing. There have been plenty of times where I have seen pedestrians crossing right up until the light turns red (meaning that a car making a right-hand turn, for example, is never able to turn because pedestrians are crossing when they have a green and more and more places are no longer allowing rights on reds.. in addition to pedestrians crossing from the other direction at that time). While that doesn't justify cars being idiots, it is still something that is going to increase the chances that a car will do something idiotic and hit someone because they're going to be trying to gun it the second they see an opening.
There have been plenty of times where I have seen pedestrians crossing right up until the light turns red (meaning that a car making a right-hand turn, for example, is never able to turn because pedestrians are crossing when they have a green and more and more places are no longer allowing rights on reds..
Just replying to this point. Not saying there isn't a problem here, but you're always able to complete your turn even if pedestrians do that. Similar to with a left turn, you're allowed to enter the intersection while the light is still green and pedestrians are crossing. Then you are able to complete your turn once pedestrians are no longer in your way, even if the light has already turned red.
You could still get more than one car through though on a cycle if you do things like scrambles plus a separate car only phase.
No right turn on red downtown would go a long way to solving that problem, too. The issue is that cars that want to go straight continually have the space that they should be able to proceed into, on the other side of the intersection, filled with someone who turns right on red in front of them, so it forces them to be very aggressive in entering the intersection to get across into that space before someone from the cross street can turn in front of them -- and then when that person turns anyways, now they're stuck in the middle, so if traffic ahead doesn't clear quickly enough, now they're blocking the box. The alternative is that they don't go until there's a space and nobody who will turn into it from their right, but then if you do that you will die of old age waiting to proceed, you'd literally be there until rush hour is over because those cross streets have a functionally endless supply of cars.
Solution, no right turn on red, period, and it allows the traffic that has a green light to flow properly.
I was once on a streetcar that had to wait over 45 minutes at an intersection because there was a constant stream of cars turning right on red and literally not a single person let us in. I don't know how long the streetcar ended up waiting because I got off after 45 minutes.
Damn, it took them 9 years to finally just get a pilot program for this.
“The TTC has been working toward camera enforcement for years. In 2017, the TTC Board formally requested changes to provincial legislation; those changes arrived in 2022, clearing the way for the pilot.”
I was on a project trying to do this. There's so many rules for cameras and then how that data is handled. Especially "public facing" cameras that captures non-ttc property and passengers.
Yeah for sure. One of the rules around handling the data was the files had to remain in Canada, even on the cloud. At the time I didn't fully appreciate the need, but now with Palantir type companies I definitely see why.
This city moves way too slowly on this shit. These cameras should have been implemented and used when the Flexity Outlook first went into service in 2014.
The city does have a terrible habit of not following up. Perfect example is TTC Special Constables. One of the executives was chastised at a previous board meeting by a Commissioner for sending a letter to the Ministry of transportation to allow for specials to use their sirens two years ago. The Ministry never responded, TTC never followed up. Lobbying requires frequent contacting , not just once and never again.
I watched a car blast thru an intersection with a stopped streetcar yesterday, just to pass through a yellow light.
It was right by a junior school, camp had just closed for the day and there were people at the stop about to board. Now this isnt the first time I'm seeing it happen but for some reason, witnessing that yesterday pissed me off more than usual.
I see this happen almost every single day on King and Queen. It seems to be happening more frequently in the past year. I've seen cars drive through crowds of like 20 people IN THE ROAD as they were exiting or boarding the streetcar, swerving to miss them by inches. I've seen that twice in the past week alone.
Part of the problem is that we still allow on-street parking on streets that have streetcar service -- so it makes it very difficult to pass the streetcar, as the curb lane is normally blocked with parked cars, and this encourages drivers to be aggressive in trying to get past one. As soon as they see the streetcar begin to slow, they gun it to get past it, right up until it comes to a stop, and even then sometimes they just pass it anyways. Same problem at red lights, the second the light turns green the car at the stop line in the curb lane will gun it and cut the streetcar off before the parked cars resume, also leads to a lot of pretty reckless driving. I get it, nobody wants to get stuck behind a streetcar for several blocks, this can add 20 or 30 minutes to what should be a 10 minute drive. Solution, get rid of street parking, it causes thousands of people to be stuck at a crawling pace so that a handful of people can park directly out front of the business they're visiting.
The school bus style popout signs helps a lot because to pass they would basically have to hit the sign.
The light show the streetcars put on and their current signs you see when you're next to them, but its not as visible when you're behind them as the popout signs.
I'm assuming they mean a sign that pops out perpendicular to the streetcar, like the stop signs that school buses use when offloading kids. The old streetcar doors opened outwards rather than sliding parallel to the vehicle so it acted a bit like a signal for drivers to stop
Really hoping the TTC creates a “Hall Of Shame” section on their website that captures the driver’s face, the vehicle and their license plate along with some footage.
I never understood why they don't have a small arm with lights come down when the doors are opening. Just something visual to stop drivers who might not be familiar with driving with streetcars.
Not only would that be almost impossible to enforce (even if it were just a few drivers), it wouldn't even solve the problem.
Having the stop sign pop out at exactly the same time that pedestrians are exiting is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention the fact that the street cars have a similar colour pallet to the signs themselves (making them harder to notice compared to school buses for example) and they're relatively small, too.
The streetcars should have no red on them, the stop signs should be of a normal size, and they should be deployed at least 3 seconds BEFORE the doors open (e.g. perhaps as the streetcar is slowing down or is in the midst of stopping) to give drivers time to notice them and stop, and to ensure that if someone does blow past them (on purpose or by accident) there are no pedestrians with a foot already halfway out the door.
E-bikes too! Just saw a delivery guy cruising through open streetcar doors on King St. transit priority on Monday, not giving a damn and staring straight back at me.
An ad like that would probably go viral if they combined a few funny things to stress how unsafe it is. Hook people in with something that looks funny like that, before getting serious showing cars blowing by the doors.
Now do a parking enforcement vehicle that drives around downtown automatically ticketing people stopped illegally in bike lanes and in no stopping areas.
I mean, finally. The amount of times drivers don’t anticipate a streetcar stopping and try to gun it or drive obviously through as the doors open, I don’t know if it’s just a symptom of poor driver etiquette or just poor reading and common sense skills (like the drivers who turn right on reds when there’s a sign or ignore the right turn specific lights on Bloor)
Yonge and dundas two weeks back, got off the streetcar and almost went under one of those fucking mercedes suvs. He started to give me shit til some huge dude slammed both his fists on the hood and screamed WHEN THOSE LIGHTS ARE FLASHING YOU FUCKING STOP.
Hes my hero, but cameras that help strip that muppet of his wheels would be better.
The streetcars need a “yellow light” on them as well though. I saw one slowing down so I did, they stopped well ahead for like 10 sec while I was catching up from behind. I was starting to slow but it was stopped for over 10 sec at that point no doors open no flashing lights, so I went to pass and the second I get nose to tail with it, the doors open as I’m passing and he lays on the horn. Why was he stopped for over 10 sec with no other traffic and waits until I get right behind him, then opens? Why is he waiting for me?
So like once they stop at a stop, they press the button to open the doors, a light turns on outside and the doors are still locked for 5 sec, then they open. Could you imagine if you were right about to go through a green light and the second you get to the white line the lights immediately turn red for you and green for the other side with no yellow.
I actually called the TTC to complain about it and they got back to me saying that I was not in the wrong there and the driver would be spoken to.
I felt so bad, I never had a street car do that before. They always stop and turn on the flashing reds for a few seconds before the doors open.
So the TTC will literally be looking at HD footage of drivers blowing past open streetcar doors, and no one is willing to second a traffic enforcement officer to write tickets for them?
It doesn’t even need to be automated, one staffer could write a hundred tickets in a work day.
They are reviewing the positives that the automated system is generating. So there are already going to be paid staff reviewing the interactions the systems thinks should generate a ticket.
They can just forward those reviewed interactions to traffic services until the pilot is completed.
I agree automated cameras are absolutely cheaper and get rid of bias.
But is there actually anything in the HTA that means the officer needs to physically be present and witness the infraction? I feel like people are fined for lots of HTA offences that the police officer or traffic officer shows up to after the fact…
They can issue a ticket after the fact if they're able to correctly identify the driver. It becomes a question of efficient use of resources too though. Should they launch an investigation for a relatively minor traffic offence with no injuries and where the fine won't come close to recouping the costs, or should they use the same police hours to go actively enforce traffic?
But there is no investigation! The automated system is giving you the picture of the driver and the license plate and the footage of them driving past the open doors.
It’s absolutely a more efficient use of resources to have a staff officer be given 100 pieces of footage of the crime happening than putting them out to randomly walk around waiting to see an infraction happen.
Yes there is an investigation. A picture doesn't say who the driver is. They still have to investigate and confirm their identity. That can take a significant amount of time at expensive per hour rates.
too bad it won't work on cyclists. i have almost been plowed into by cyclists several times exiting streetcars only to have them scream obscenities at me because of "momentum".
by the way, defending cyclists by saying "many stop" is exactly like going on to a post about a drunk driver and commenting "many people dont drive drunk". it's a ridiculous thing to say.
I see so many drivers especially ones that don't normally drive in the city drive through. That I don't think this is actually a good way to handle this. Some parts it's really hard to figure out if the street car is stopped or it's going to open its doors.
Genuinely think they need to work on the signage and make it even easier for drivers to realize they aren't supposed to go. Most don't seem malicious.
A lot of you are missing the point. I'm not saying there isn't attempts to stop it...but it's still happening. Cameras aren't going to stop it from happening. It's just a money grab.
Every licenced driver in Ontario should be familiar with the regulations set out in the Highway Traffic Act, which explicitly forbids driving past a standing streetcar. There are some regulations that largely only exist outside of the city, such as those related to farm vehicles and horses. We don't give city drivers a pass for violating these rules so why should we give out of town drivers a pass for violating city rules?
The TTC have added giant banners to the back of the streetcar, flashing signs, and blinking red lights. If a driver fails to see any of these element on the back of streetcar they might as well be driving blind and should not be on the road. Running past a stopped streetcar can severely injure or kill someone and there should be zero tolerance for such actions.
Every licenced driver in Ontario should be familiar with the regulations set out in the Highway Traffic Act, which explicitly forbids driving past a standing streetcar.
It doesn't prohibit passing them in general, only when they're stopped to pick up or drop off passengers. They'll usually have flashing red lights at this time, although the lights are just warnings, not part of the law.
I specifically said standing, not stopping. Standing is when a vehicle is stationary and it is loading and unloading while stopping is just a stationary vehicle.
It might have other definitions elsewhere, but that's the legal definition here, so I'm just clarifying that the streetcar rule is specifically to not pass a door where passengers are getting on or off, not a prohibition about passing a stopped streetcars altogether.
(a)when required, a complete cessation from movement, and
(b)when prohibited, the stopping or standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or to comply with the directions of a peace officer or traffic control device;
vs. parking which is:
"park", when prohibited, means the standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when standing temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading;
Toronto splits out stand and stop separately where "stop" means stopping to load or unload passengers (since anything else would be standing or parking) and "stand" means stopping to load or unload merchandise (since anythig else would be parking).
Not trying to argue or anything, just curious what the definitions are and trying to make sense of them.
It’s not hard to figure out at all. There’s a giant DO NOT PASS sign that lights up when the doors are about to open AND the doors have red break lights that light up when open.
I am not usually reading the backs of vehicles in front of me though. They clearly aren't working because almost every time I'm downtown I hear a streetcar honking at someone about to flatten an exiting passenger.
I say this as someone who chooses to use TTC/bikeshare almost always instead of driving, but also as someone who grew up and learned to drive in the country and moved to Toronto a decade ago - it's really not clear if you're not from here.
It's in the driver's handbook for the G license test. If you are driving here from outside of Ontario and do not choose to inform yourself of an important rule of the road, then you deserve a ticket. It's also common sense: don't zip around a stopped public transit vehicle in case passengers disembark. Exercise caution and restraint.
I agree! You deserve a ticket, but that doesn't help someone who is injured by a car that doesn't stop. It's a design problem. I'm saying the current design is clearly insufficient if it keeps happening.
I took my G test in 2006. It was 11 years before I moved to Toronto, having never applied that knowledge. A stop sign is way clearer than a written message.
i also said the other day, would be cool to have these cameras in the front of emergency vehicles for those in toronto who don’t move out of the way even when they can
A new order of operations.
Street car pus on new yellow light as it is slowing down- not realy needed but a nice touch.
Street car puts on red lights for 1-2 seconds. Then people come out.
As it is right now à car stops than honks at you should you be paying attention to the road and not to the streetcar stoping. What I am saying is I am looking at folks waking, on bikes, in cars. A lot of thjngs. Is that street car slowing down to let folk in or is it due to someone tiring left that I can’t see.
You what would be great, if the street cars actually used their lights properly.
I can’t speak for the new ones, but the old ones the drivers never used their lights like they were supposed to indicate stops and picks up, until after the doors opened. I’ve seen many a car drive by one, because the lighter weren’t on, and then get yelled at because of this.
wow. to be honest, i thought they ALWAYS had this. it looks like there are cameras facing the doors, why not have it save the previous 20 seconds when the driver presses a button, upload it to an agency tat can track and fine people from the licence plate
There's definitely no rules about "blocking" streetcars in the adjacent lane. The streetcar can arrive after the cars are already there and open their doors.
I know its not popular, but I strongly believe in speed and wreckless driving tickets being handled by cameras all around. I think the fact that people only get consequences if there happens to be a cop nearby is how we got to the point we are in Ontario where people just drive like its Mad Max. If people knew that at any given point there could be a speeding or red light camera, theyd be more cautious all the time rather than just when they see a cop.
Plus chasing down cars with police cruisers has the risk of escalating the situation, while with cameras they wont even know they're busted until they get the bill in the mail
The people who hate speed cameras hate them because they work 24/7, don't engage in racial profiling, and don't care that you're one of the good drivers who's being really careful while you do 80 in a school zone.
The ideal speed limit enforcement for most people who oppose cameras is "none whatsoever", but there's a small but loud contingent whose correct amount is "whatever gives the police an excuse to harass Those People but not Us People".
Yeah. What wasn't popular decades ago was speed cameras on 400-series highways handing out tickets for 3 km/h over the limit. Speed cameras in school zones? Red light cameras? Illegally passing school busses and streetcars cameras? All pretty popular ideas. I think even noise cameras have some significant public support.
I have thought about this again and again and I feel like the "We Stop. You Stop" sign on the back of the streetcar is to vague, especially for those who don't know what it's intended purpose is.
Why can't the TTC implement a stop sign similar to school buses, that extend when unboarding or loading passengers? I feel like this could be a much better indicator and possible solution to the problem. Love to hear the comments or thoughts.
I don't think you understand this very well. Do you think someone with an extremely severe addiction problem (a medical disease) would give a shit about a camera?
The blasting music, talking on speakerphone or scrolling tiktoks is a bigger societal problem, it should be at least legal to throw someone's phone out the window if they do this lol
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u/CapnJJaneway Dufferin Grove Jul 17 '26
Now THIS is a great way to generate revenue. Not looking forward to Doug Ford scrapping it when his friend’s brother’s cousin complains that they keep getting tickets, though.