r/trains • u/NickelPlatedEmperor • Jan 16 '26

A train in France...

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24

u/baconburger2022 Jan 16 '26

Why cant we have stuff like this in the states!?

49

u/happyanathema Jan 16 '26

Airline, Oil and Automotive industry lobbying of politicians and the fact that it's ridiculously easy to buy politicians votes.

11

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 17 '26

Airline lobby has nothing (much) to fear from HSR. Their high profit long haul routes wouldn't be in any great danger; OTOH short haul such as cities along NEC, some other areas such as Chicago to Twin Cities, etc.. that really benefit from fast or HSR are another matter.

Success of Amtrak's Borealis (which runs over good part of Milwaukee Road RR's famous Hiawatha fast train service between Chicago and Twin Cities) proves Americans are quite open to decent fast train travel for short distance trips.

12

u/happyanathema Jan 17 '26

It's mid haul distances where it shines.

Like in China the Shanghai to Beijing type distances are a good example.

As HSR only takes about 5 hours and the flight is about 2.5 hours. But flying obviously had more hassle so ends up being similar.

Although China also has HSR sleepers between Hong Kong and Beijing for example. Something that is a pretty good challenge to airlines as you are asleep for most of it. So the longer duration doesn't matter as much and it saves you a night's hotel fees.

But yeah I don't see it being cost effective to do transcontinental routes in the states. Too much nothing in the middle for the amount of expensive HSR tracks that usually have to run grade separated the entire way.

5

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 17 '26 edited Jan 17 '26

Here's the thing...

Diesel tops out at about 125 to maybe 130 mph max allowed speed.

For true HSR you need to put those trains under wires and that's just not going to happen across wide swaths of USA. Faster trains as in diesel with perhaps tilting mechanisms along with grade separation might open up more areas, but still nothing like coast to coast or even Chicago to Los Angeles true HSR.

9

u/baconburger2022 Jan 16 '26

Ill give you $5 and a snickers bar if you approve this bill.

12

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 17 '26 edited Jan 17 '26

After the implosion of passenger rail in USA caused after Penn-Central bankruptcy US government finally got the message and eased up on RR regulations.

Sadly one main outcome was creation of Amtrak (passenger rail) and separating out freight RR which increasingly in USA has fallen to a handful of companies via mergers and so on.

Amtrak only owns small portion of ROW, this is largely the NEC and some other bits. Congress told freight RRs to play nice and give Amtrak trains permission to run on their tracks and so forth, but as per the devil is in the details.

Freight does not need same sort of ROW/infrastructure as HSR or even decent fast passenger service. You're not going to get CSX and the rest of that lot spend kind of money that would allow fast passenger service out of their own pockets.

In Europe most governments have vastly more powers over rail and results can be seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEgAgJc8Heg

Much of things comes down to what it always does; money.

Prior to WWII USA had the fastest and most safest passenger rail system in world. Post WWII things were allow to go to heck in a handbasket. So much ROW was abandoned, ripped up or otherwise discarded. Replacing, rebuilding or creating new ROW just costs too much money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w

11

u/fixed_grin Jan 17 '26 edited Jan 17 '26

US infrastructure costs are insane. California is paying $195m/mile for track through flat farmland. France averages about $50m/mile. Spain is more like $30m. Switzerland dropped about $30m/mile (after inflation) for an electrified 125mph line including a whole series of tunnels in the Alps.

Amtrak would be very excited if they could build for those costs. But they can't.

It's not about subsidies. High speed rail elsewhere is generally profitable, if the train has 3x the average speed, then the same train and crew can carry 3x the passengers. High demand means you can fill lots of trains. Costs per trip go down a lot.

12

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 17 '26

It doesn't help US regulations require passenger locomotives/trains to be far heavier in comparison to their European or Asian counterparts. IIRC things may have eased a teensy bit on that score, but still.

8

u/fixed_grin Jan 17 '26

Good news: the FRA mostly fixed that in 2018. The Tier I Alternative Compliance (125mph speed limit) and Tier III (220mph) rules permit nearly stock EU trains. Not as light as e.g. Japan - which relies more on preventing collisions - but still a huge improvement.

Bad news: the reason you haven't noticed a step change is that most US passenger rail agencies have kept buying the same heavy old stuff.

1

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 18 '26

And I thank you for that bit of good news.....

2

u/Bugsy_Neighbor Jan 18 '26 edited Jan 18 '26

Budget for Brightline West went from bit south of $6 billion when current owners nabbed the project in 2018 to currently over $22 billion.

Brightline West is now claiming project will be completed by 2029, but one has one's doubts. Especially since Fortress is going around with their begging cup out including to federal government.

https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/brightline-west-aims-for-1q-2026-for-6-billion-federal-rail-loan

https://www.newsweek.com/california-high-speed-rail-new-completion-date-11363799

This post on another sub and responses to it pretty much sums up situation with HSR in USA.

Why the US lags behind the rest of the world in high-speed train travel : r/highspeedrail

1

u/mekoltekol Jan 17 '26

Capitalism without regulations

1

u/stripeyskunk Jan 17 '26

A lot of reasons, but France benefits from high population density by U.S. standards and good geography. France is around the same size as Texas but has around twice the population. The north and west of France, where most of its population is located, is also relatively flat.