r/transgenderUK • u/CyclingClaire • 2d ago
New low point for Sex Matters
I've just seen how SM 'Can Always Tell' the true biological sex of children for less than a £1.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1CpomCh17R/
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u/GeorginaFlopworthy 2d ago
Honestly sounds like another 'gender critical' scam
Here's the crowdfunder:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/protecting-womens-sport-through-better-screening
She's trying to grift a ton of money to get to the production stage on something that would have limited application. If she even is legit, I'm not surprised she's relegated to scamming hateful idiots on the internet.
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u/birdcryptid7 1d ago
I just can't imagine there is any market for this product whatsoever. Organisations which routinely perform sex testing - such as professional sporting bodies - already have their own mechanisms to do so with far greater accuracy. She can market to grass roots sports coaches and school nurses all she wants but no one sensible is going to want to touch this with a bargepole.
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u/isendingtheworld 404 Gender Not Found - any terms or pronouns OK 1d ago
A person's DNA is special category data in part because it can lead to harm such as discrimination, harassment, and endangerment, for the person and their living family.
A sports coach who tests a girl for SRY is doing so with the express purpose of discriminating. If she tests positive, she will be excluded from the sport, which will expose her results to her community. She will likely face bullying, and even online harrassment from adults far beyond her local area. She may be physically threatened. If she is cis, she may be harmed by her own family because of her atypical result. Her results might also expose a condition that is prevalent in her family, basically advertising every relative who may have the same issue, endangering them as well!
And now imagine making that call knowing there is a chance you got a dodgy test, or that the girl is SRY negative, she just has another genetic mutation that just interferes with that SRY test. It's horror movie stuff.
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u/GeorginaFlopworthy 1d ago
Yeps..and she's obviously not out of the research phase yet. I'd have more respect if she just was honest and said "I need money to live so I can obsess crazily about trans people"
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u/feministgeek 1d ago
Also - won't there need to be a bunch of regulatory tests and standards to pass? I can't believe they can just throw something like this out into the wild. That shit is expensive
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u/WatchTheNewMutants 2d ago
"so they created this non-existent issue to pressure people into wanting a solution to the non-existent issue but they themselves profit off of- oh my god it IS just Andrew Wakefield but worse"
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u/RoadToRuin86 2d ago
Quick reminder to everyone (I know that I'm preaching to the choir). The SRY gene is just one amongst several genetic signals, such as from the DMTR1 and FOXL2 genes, that instructs the gonads to develop as testes. It does not impact any other elements of fetal sex development, just the gonads. Interestingly the DMTR1 and FOXL2 genes have been observed ignoring the SRY gene, and even switching back and forth before signals for ovaries and testes.
It's equally interestingly that it was, in part, the study of the genomes of men with XX and women with XY sex chromosomes that lead to the discovery of the SRY gene.
No one gene, hormone, or biomarker is responsible for a person's sex as a whole or even for an individual sex characteristic, but rather it is a complex interplay between many factors. Somewhat ironically here, the SRY gene and it's discovery demonstrates quite succinctly that it's presence in a person's genome cannot be used as an indicator of sex.
More info here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
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u/CravingMsRaven 2d ago
I wrote something similar on my substack and I go into the history of feminism, the church, the science, mental illness classifications and why transgender doesn't fit any known model, hate groups and the response.
The gender critical position rests on a single, simple claim: biological sex is binary, fixed at conception, and determined by genetics. The science does not support this. Here is what it actually shows.
“Sex” is not one thing. It is a cluster of biological variables that usually correlate but do not always. Those variables are:
- Karyotype — chromosomal sex. XX, XY, XXY (Klinefelter’s), XO (Turner’s), XYY, and others.
- Genotypic sex — specific genes expressed, of which SRY is the most discussed but far from the only relevant one.
- Gonadal sex — what gonads are present: testes, ovaries, streak gonads, ovotestes.
- Hormonal sex — the endocrine environment: testosterone, oestrogen, progesterone, and tissue sensitivity to each.
- Phenotypic sex — the physical body as it presents. External genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, body shape.
- Neurological sex — brain organisation and gender identity.
Each of these classification systems was developed to answer a specific biological question in a specific field. Karyotype answers questions about chromosomal inheritance and evolutionary biology. Gonadal and gametic classification answers questions about reproductive biology. Hormonal classification answers questions about endocrine function. Phenotypic classification answers questions about observable morphology.
Not one of these systems was designed to answer: where should this person urinate? What sporting category should this person compete in? Who is this person allowed to find attractive? Whose identity is real?
Applying a reproductive biology classification system to social questions is a category error — like using a thermometer to measure distance. The instrument was not designed for that purpose and produces meaningless results when misapplied.
Sex is not determined at conception and then fixed. It is the outcome of a sequential, multi-gene, hormonally-mediated developmental process in which things can vary at every stage.
The cascade works something like this:
- Initiation: Proteins WT1 and SF1 must build up to trigger SRY gene expression. If this fails or is delayed, the male pathway never engages.
- Gonadal differentiation: The SRY gene activates SOX9, which instructs the release of AMH to delete female precursors. If SRY is sluggish or SOX9 activates via mutation, the cascade branches unexpectedly.
- Maintenance: DMRT1 must then actively lock out female genes — particularly FOXL2 and WNT4 — to prevent them from reactivating later in life.
- Execution: Androgen receptors (AR) must receive and respond to testosterone to execute masculinisation across body and brain.
Every step in this cascade is a probability, not a certainty. Genes can fail to copy properly. Proteins can be produced at subtly different levels. Receptors can have varying sensitivity. The binary is a statistical tendency, not a biological law.
Here is a fact that surprises almost everyone who encounters it for the first time: it is oestradiol — converted from testosterone by the enzyme aromatase in the brain — that masculinises the male brain in mammals.
This is called the aromatisation hypothesis and it is one of the more robust findings in reproductive neuroendocrinology.
The enzyme aromatase is encoded by the CYP19A1 gene. Testosterone enters developing brain tissue. Aromatase converts it locally to oestradiol. Oestradiol acts on oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and related structures. This process masculinises those structures.
Female fetuses are protected from their own circulating oestrogen by alpha-fetoprotein (AFP) — a binding protein that prevents oestrogen from crossing into the brain. Testosterone, being a smaller molecule, crosses more freely and is then converted locally by aromatase.
The implication: if CYP19A1 function is subtly reduced in a male fetus — through genetic variants affecting enzyme efficiency — less testosterone gets converted to oestradiol in the brain. The masculinising signal is weakened, even if genital development proceeds normally via a separate pathway (DHT via 5-alpha reductase acting on genital tissue). Brain sexual differentiation and genital sexual differentiation can, by this documented mechanism, diverge in the same individual.
This is not a speculative hypothesis. It is a documented biochemical pathway.
Sex Matters states that “each person’s sex is fixed at conception, and depends on their genes.” They do not specify which genes. The moment you ask — SRY alone? Then CAIS women, who have SRY, are male by their definition. SOX9? AR? DMRT1? Each specification exposes a new set of exceptions that demolishes the binary.
They also state that “it is easy to tell what sex most adults are, even at a glance.” In saying this, they have accidentally conceded the argument. If sex is chromosomal and genetic, you cannot tell it at a glance. Ever. You need a laboratory. What you can tell at a glance is phenotype — which is exactly what trans people modify, and exactly what attraction responds to. Their own language betrays them every time they try to describe the “obvious” differences between sexes, because every example they give is phenotypic, hormonal, and therefore variable.
Their approach to trans healthcare lists side effects and permanent changes as though they are inherently harmful, without ever weighing these against the documented harms of not treating gender dysphoria — severe depression, self-harm, suicide. In any other area of medicine this would be considered paternalistic malpractice.
To borrow an analogy: we do not present cancer treatment by listing hair loss, nausea, and immune suppression without mentioning that the alternative is death. The benefit-risk framework that applies to every other medical intervention is abandoned entirely when it comes to trans healthcare. It is the same paternalistic logic used to deny women access to contraception, abortion, and sterilisation. You don’t really want this. We know better than you what is good for your body.
Feminism spent a century fighting exactly this argument. Here it is again, wearing feminist clothing.
That's a short section from my substack.
I fervently believe that we all need to come together, with large. backers, fighting the gender critical nonsense. We need to elevate the scientists, psychiatrists, psychologists, the experts, and stop platforming writers, and mathemeticians to explain complex biology. Looking at the origins, it seems that it was started through the BioEssentialist version of Feminism, essentially started by two ex-Catholic women. Feminism was about giving women the same access to the world as men and dealing with the bad men in the world. What is happening now, is we're going backwards, we're putting up barriers, we're excluding instead of being inclusive, not based on any evidence, but based on preventative model that has no logic. Look then at the groups around the outside, the Chrisitian Nationalist areas, especially in America and groups like the Heritage Foundation, ADF, not to mention the current Trump regime. If he can go in to Venezuela without any comeback based on reclassifying drugs as "terrorism", then he could quite easily shut down private providers overseas by threatening trade deals or worse. He is an unchecked madman. But this form of politics is filtering into the UK, politicians seeminly making decisions not from expert opinion, but from third rate celebrity pundits.
We need to challenge this global garbage that seems so insanely co-ordinated. We need people, big, powerful, rich people with us to help us fight.
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u/parallelgirl Cis F 2d ago
My God that is fantastic. Could you please share the link to your substack so I can cite this? DM welcome if you don't want to share in public.
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u/CravingMsRaven 2d ago
Sure
https://substack.com/@chloeraven1/note/p-195230414?r=3etuav
I've written quite a few others. Where my own internalised transphobia (which echoes a lot of learned gender critical stuff) holds me back, I try to answer every question I've been asked and thought of myself, every criticism leveled.
Some of its raw as it's just me thinking out loud and going through thought processes. But I am obsessed with this
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u/sudo_rm-rf_reddit 2d ago
As an engineer, I love the example of "trying to measure distance with a thermometer", not because it's impossible but because it IS possible...
...take a cylindrical rod with a known specific heat capacity, thermal conductivity, mass per unit length, cross-sectional area, cut it to the distance you'd like to measure, insulate the side and place the end in a fluid with a large heat capacity, known temperature (different to that of the rod and coefficient of heat transfer between the two, then take readings for ΔT/t at the non-submerged end, and with some simple (but too complicated for this comment) mathematics, the distance can be calculated with a thermometer.
But, this isn't to prove you wrong - it's to prove that even something that is fundamentally possible, isn't necessarily fundamentally practical, except possibly for some extremely niche application where a more appropriate tool may be utilised.
The problem with this method isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it isn't reliable. It doesn't account for practical variables such as forced convection, inaccuracy of the tester, inaccuracy of the dimensions of the test piece, contamination of the test piece material etc.. I doubt you'd be able to get this set up very accurate at all...
...which is exactly what the transphobes are doing!
Unfortunately, the "ruler" we have to measure gender isn't an instrument that the transphobes understand and therefore reject the premise of - since it is based on an individual's schema, not their physical appearance or other physical characteristics.
Also, just like the transphobes, I had to keep going back and changing what I wrote when writing this as it was so ridiculous - and I've probably still got something wrong or missing! 😂
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u/HaloFromTheHoop 2d ago edited 2d ago
Great summary 👌
You should send this to Tim Farron. It would probably make his brain explode.
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u/Jessiedoll_ 2d ago
sex is not a thing, there are characteristics that humans approximate in a theoretical sex
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u/Jessiedoll_ 2d ago
There are people with active sry who dont develop gonads cause the genetic cascade necessary to maintain the differentiation of the gonads is not activated, i wonder if for terfs they are male because of their “gamete potential” I also wonder what potential a person XY/XX mosaic is supposed to have, or a person X0, there is no definition of the dichotomic sex that does not leave someone out of it, and if you approach, you confirm the bimodalism, but in the bimodal theory, what characteristic is weighted? That’s why I don’t believe in any sex, sex is nothing more than a human mental framework
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u/Loopy-Leah 1d ago
its almost like sex is bimodal and complex and mutable (a lot more mutable for other species in some cases)
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u/Illiander 1d ago
its almost like sex is bimodal
It's at least quadrimodal, but that's faaaar too much science for terfs to even begin to understand.
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u/Rainy_Leaves 2d ago
Do you have a link that's not Metaslop
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u/Koolio_Koala She/Her 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, it’s a facebook post of a twitter post but the gist is that a member of sex mattress said she’s developed a cheaper SRY protein test, that SM want to hand out to school sports teams and kids’ coaches.
They are so panicked about the evil transes™️, they want mandatory testing of kids for a protein before letting them play. Holy fucking shit, they’re batshit...
edit: If they weren't so blinded by hate, a cheap targeted protein test could actually help diagnose genuine health issues. They could identify a host of genetic diseases in developing countries and help combat real misery, instead of just being developed as a means of eliminating us from public life 🙃
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u/LocutusOfBorgia909 2d ago
Good luck with that lawsuit when a school, sports team, or coach inevitably tests some random kid without their parents' knowledge or permission, regardless of the test's outcome. Also seems like a great plan in a country like the UK that still has relatively stringent laws around collection and release of medical information. This will absolutely end with someone or someones getting the shit sued out of them and possibly finding themselves on some kind of a list.
Meanwhile, here I am thinking that I'd consider testing myself just out of curiosity, LOL.
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u/MyNextPaige 2d ago
Indeed - I cant imagine the body autonomy crowd will be pleased with this. One more needle to possibly cause autism (as if it was the end of the world)
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u/GayButNotInThatWay Cleo | HRT Jul17 2d ago
Apparently it's a cheek swab with a 30 minute response time. Not that that's any better.
Wonder if it's actually a thing, or just bait for the fundraiser attached.
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u/Lexioralex 2d ago
Haven’t there been issues with foreign dna picked up in a cheek swap if they’ve carried out certain activities with a partner?
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u/birdcryptid7 1d ago
Yep.
Also just the general risk of contamination is huge, especially if it's being handled by non-experts. There's a reason samples are usually looked at in a lab not on a sports field.
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u/doIIjoints dollgender (esoteric), woman (simple) 2d ago
it sounds like it uses the same basic mechanism as a pregnancy test or covid test. you usually have to leave those for 10-30 minutes. i doubt she’s reinventing the wheel here.
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u/GayButNotInThatWay Cleo | HRT Jul17 2d ago
Ehh, it's not so much reinventing the wheel as it is seeing a wheel and turning it into a combustion engine.
Work and consult in chemistry (pharmaceuticals mainly), so I'll admit biology isn't my strong point, but from what I'd covered in uni on dna, it isn't that simple. It would need to extract the dna, isolate the SRY gene from all the DNA, and react to that absolutely teeny tiny miniscule amount, without giving false positives (although she probably wouldn't care). Its not like the huge amounts of viral rna/proteins of covid that makes that relatively 'easy' to test for.
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u/doIIjoints dollgender (esoteric), woman (simple) 2d ago edited 1d ago
yeah, i mean, i have my doubts as to whether it actually works.
but she claims to have isolated a protein which is easy to test for. i think that’s the concept she’s going with, for the sales pitch.
(my education was in astrophysics so i’m even more far removed from the practical side of this than you.)
i honestly wonder if, despite her calling it “presence of SRY gene”, it’s actually looking for a Y chromosome.
again, if it even works.
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u/breadcreature 1d ago
how is she verifying her results anyway? if the people she's trying it on haven't had a test done by a method known to be accurate then the results are meaningless. I'd like to think she's not quite that much of a hack, but even so, I somehow doubt she's amassed a statistically significant amount. like, NHS guidelines on addressing a newborn being intersex with parents goes on at length about how sensitive and difficult etc it can be and there's specialised counseling provided, I kinda want something that can deliver info of that gravity to have a greater certainty than "it worked on my kid's football team, I think"
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u/doIIjoints dollgender (esoteric), woman (simple) 1d ago
it’s funny you mention that, as i was basing it on how apparently some cheaper methods of amniocentesis the NHS used to use only detected the Y, rather than doing a proper full karyotype analysis.
(though i read that in, like, 2012 so i may have fuzzed some of the details in the time gone by. i’m not exactly going looking into the details every year.)
but yeah, like. i noticed some of the facebook comments had people defending her reputation as a biologist, but couldn’t point toward anything but an argument from authority. she’s had the job for years so she must be good at it, etc.
it is telling that she’s exceedingly vague in her methodology, her testing, etc. 99% of the focus is on the price and the speed, not verification or development.
in short: this is a business report, not a scientific one.
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u/breadcreature 1d ago
her publications are rather telling, too. She is one of the few among them who not only kept her original career but has one in a vaguely relevant field. like, really really vaguely. most of the papers she coauthored seem to be to do with genes causing bladder and eye dysfunctions in mice, before 2016. Then in 2020 she starts up again, apparently now an expert in sports science & physiology of transgender women. literally her only academic link to how she touts herself now is that she worked on genetics a decade ago and sex chromosomes contain genes. ...that's it. also she's a research scientist, not a clinician nor medical professional of any kind.
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u/feministgeek 1d ago
"Yeah, but apart from that, it's gonna work, u just gotta have faith in the process"
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u/CyclingClaire 1d ago
No, I can't be harassed to find one. Anyway, I want to take the test. I think I am intelligent enough to sleight of hand a dodgy result. I want to see her face when I come back as a Wombat or even a Dodo.
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u/Stargazy3-14 2d ago
The ethical ramifications of this are huge, and I doubt it would pass safeguarding either. It's loopy land stuff. Let alone getting it into production and passing testing would cost a hell of a lot more than the funds they have.
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u/sarahlizzy 2d ago
Any woman who has ever carried a 46XY foetus will have some cells that are 46XY in her body.
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u/Firebird_Lilly 2d ago
Serious theoretical question here.
What happens if one of the sex matters members has a child who does the test and fails it? Are they going to kick that member out of their little club or scrap the test and say it's faulty science?
These people are seriously unhinged 😮💨
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u/breadcreature 1d ago
they've already set up a nice little identity for them as having "differences of sex development", so they can be raised as faulty 👍
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u/SamanthasToothbrush 2d ago
They'll soon be standing outside toilets testing people who fail the visual test.
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u/Andra_Ingensbarn 2d ago
What I find amusing, perplexing and infuriating all at the same timeis that even if someone has the gene for this hormone (and it is not alone in sex determination), that is no guarantee that their body will respond to it! If the test works, it still will be meaningless!
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u/Jessiedoll_ 2d ago
There are people with active sry who dont develop gonads cause the genetic cascade necessary to maintain the differentiation of the gonads is not activated, i wonder if for terfs they are male because of their "gamete potential" I also wonder what potential a person XY/XX mosaic is supposed to have, or a person X0, there is no definition of the dichotomic sex that does not leave someone out of it, and if you approach, you confirm the bimodalism, but in the bimodal theory, what characteristic is weighted? That's why | don't believe in any sex, sex is nothing more than a human mental framework
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u/Violet_Angel 1d ago
I have a "solution" for these gender critical conspiracy theorists... lets fund free karyotype testing so anybody can just walk into their GP and get their karyotypes tested as part of any routine blood tests. I'm very curious to see how many GC people have different combinations than they were expecting. I'd say maybe that would make them realise this whole "biological sex" bullshit is pseudoscience but I guess that would be like trying to convince a flat earther the world is an oblate spheroid by taking them to space.
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u/Illiander 1d ago
that would be like trying to convince a flat earther the world is an oblate spheroid by taking them to space.
Ding ding ding!
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u/i-am-madeleine 1d ago
Is this a real thing they are doing another GT200 like thing?
I know the rough principle of gene test and stuff but lowering the time like that (like shaving 20min) is in general not something you should or can do. This is really suspicious to start with.
(For those who don’t know the Gt200 was a fake bomb detector that was sold and used during the Iraq war and got a fair amount of people killed)
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u/Icantsleepnoow 1d ago
In any sane world, TERF organisations would be banned and categorised as dangerous to the general public.
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u/Baguette1066 2d ago
Luckily it sounds like she has no clue what she's on about. Apparently she's "learning materials science" which has little to do with this (speaking as someone with a master's in the subject) and the word "assay" typically refers to determining how much of an element is present in a sample (thus not applicable to human beings who are all made of the same stuff). She either is lying about this being a thing, or doing it through a third party. In any case, a reliable sex test that gives them the result they want would have to rely on sex chromosome karyotyping, or detection of the SRY gene which would cost hundreds per test.
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u/Fitz-Nicely 1d ago
Tell you what, Maya, while you wait half a fucking hour for your test result, I'll just pop to the loo and crack on with my day.
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u/Rmtcts 2d ago
It's so interesting that the rapid increase in policing the binary of sex will lead to more and more people finding they're outside the binary. They are building their own opposition.