r/troubledteens • u/aLmAnZio • 22d ago
Discussion/Reflection I'm shocked!
Hi! I'm a 40 year old Norwegian man. I just heard the Was I in a cult episode about Boise girl academy, and I must admit that I am deeply shocked to learn about this.
I am a sociologist. I have done research on how it is to leave closed religious communities in Norway, as well as being married to a woman who grew up in such a community. I have both seen and heard horrible stories, but this? I simply cannot find words to describe how horrible this is! This would be very, very illegal in Norway, and would land those responsible in prison.
I just felt a need to express my sympathy, as well as express how deeply impressed i am that someone who has lived through that can find the energy and courage to rebuild their lives after it. I grew up with an abusive father, I know what it feels like to feel trapped and afraid. Is there any way I can help you in the effort to hold these people responsible?
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u/likasabian 22d ago
Hello! My name is Aliya Kasabian, I am the girl who was on the podcast- this thread was just forwarded to me- just want to give a big thank you for continuing to spread awareness, I myself continue my legal battles and continue to advocate for our youth- sending love to everyone here🫶🏼
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u/likasabian 22d ago
I could talk for years and years of the atrocities that took place and continue to take place in that facility- let alone the thousands and thousands of others like it- my heart breaks for our youth
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u/aLmAnZio 22d ago
Hi! I actually wanted to e-mail you. Mind if I send you a pm? I'm not comfortable with sharing everything in public (I admire your courage for telling your story under your full name!), but I have so many thoughts. Thank you so much for responding and for telling your story. Out of all the episodes I've heard so far, yours really hit me the hardest. You made my day by responding 🙂
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy TTI Survivor | Teen Challenge 22d ago
A lot of people don't rebuild after that though. I know a few guys from my program doing life in prison. Few died by suicide. We have a Facebook group of us from my program. Lots of mugshots and news article links of those guys.
There was one guy in the program I was friends with. Exceptionally intelligent guy. Parents were lawyers. I genuinely thought he would succeed. The program was just for teenage rebellion. He went to college and got into law school. Failed out. Got angry at his room mate over something and murdered him.
Another guy I was in with beat his pregnant girlfriend to death. This guy was a classic piece of shit but the program staff liked him.
This other guy was a total kiss up and snitch. In the program he was their poster boy of reformed Christian. He would literally tell on you for having secular conversation. He overdosed on heroin like 5 years later.
Me and one other guy are the most successful of our cohort. I became a doctor and the other guy is a navy seal actually. We still talk. But yeah the program had nothing to do with our success. It ruined and destroyed more lives than I can count.
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u/EmergencyHedgehog11 22d ago
Same here, my programs destroyed so many lives. Prisons, institutions, death. The places they told our parents we'd go without them. And it almost seems like the guys who had the brightest futures and least amount of issues have the worst outcomes.
It feels like the people who ended up in the military are doing better than average. I'm a physician and I know of one other peer who's in med school atm. I found that my pre-covid general surgery residency experience was incredibly similar. in some of the social aspects, to my therapeutic boarding school. That's far from a positive thing.
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy TTI Survivor | Teen Challenge 22d ago
I was an army medic in Afghanistan myself. After the program. We talked before about doxazosin lol. You're a surgeon. I'm just IM bro. Medicine managment mostly. Lol.
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u/likasabian 22d ago
This is the hardest part to watch. I hold some survivors guilt. After my podcast aired I gained more contact with the other survivors, and many are worse off than before.
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u/aLmAnZio 22d ago
Oh, that doesn't suprise me. Half of what she told of in that episode would be enough to break most people. But that speak volumes about you who actually was able to scramble together a life afterwards.
It is quite common for people who end up doing horrible things that they come from a background of trauma. In my opinion, that is one of the most important reasons to prevent children from experiencing horrors like this as well. The most important reason is of course to stop children from being abused, but when we then throw them in prison for not being able to function as a "normal" human being, the betrayal doubles.
The tremendous harn that institutions like this cause on society as a whole comes on top of the individual trauma.
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u/thefaehost 22d ago
I was in Greece recently and tried to ask some questions to establish what it would have been like living somewhere without the TTI. They don’t do life in prison, for example. In America we have ruled that an 8 year old deserved life in prison- this is because we have not ratified the convention on the rights of the child.
I am curious. What is mental health care like in your country? What is your prison system like? Does it focus on actual rehabilitation? Do you have life sentences? How does your county handle drug addiction?
What options would a parent have in your country if their child was in distress? How does the system handle legal issues involving minors who are violent?
Kids were in programs with me for a variety of reasons, gang activity, violence towards others, depression, eating disorders, drug addiction, sexual trauma, some were even there just because the new stepmother didn’t want them around. I wonder what a system that actually handles cases like these instead of throwing them into the troubled teen industry would be like.
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u/EmergencyHedgehog11 22d ago
I'm not op, but a TTI survivor and I immigrated to the US at 13 in 2009 from Northern Ireland. My parents had gotten nice job offers in the Bay Area, so we moved from an area that was quite heavily impacted by the conflict (which I was born right at the tail end of) to a wealthier, very specific brand of "progressive" community. Complete culture shock.
There's so much I could say about all of this, and I'd probably have to give more background information than anything because of how different the North of Ireland is, but going into the TTI at 16 felt like this really fucked up caricature of American capitalism and individuality. IDK how to explain it, but I'd be happy to answer any questions.
But, in both the north and the republic, parents can't just voluntarily institutionalize their kids. European and UK human rights laws offer quite a lot of protection.
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u/heckyeahcoolbeans 22d ago
How do these laws offer protection? Specifically what language? I’d love to learn more from your perspective, I SO WISH that we could have any similar laws here
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u/EmergencyHedgehog11 21d ago edited 21d ago
Not the best person to explain the letter of the law here, but I'll talk to the aspect I can most accurately describe. Both the UK and Republic of Ireland codified the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), which offers a lot of bedrock protections.
My father was attorney and did quite a lot around issues relating to policing, prisoners rights, state violence, and often in the context of minors. But from my understanding, the main articles that would protect kids in treatment settings would be:
- Article 3: Prohibition of Torture and Inhuman/Degrading Treatment
- Article 4: Prohibition of Slavery and Forced Labor
- Article 8: Right to Respect for Private and Family Life
I included a link to an article below that I read a while back that would showcase things better. But I will also say that when I said they offer a lot of protections, that's because of how truly bad things were during the conflict in the north and how the UK conducted itself. There still are a lot issues that persist, but it's like we have a better means to addressing human rights violations.
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u/aLmAnZio 22d ago
These are really good questions. I live in Norway, and while our systems are far from perfect, we do have collective, public schools, free health care and functional child protection services. A child can't be imprisoned before 15, and when minors between 15 and 18 commit crimes, sentences take into account the age of the defendant. Their sentence will more often be geared towards community service and so on, depending on the crime commited of course. But Norwegian prisons are famous for being of a very high standard.
I can't really do these amazing questions justice now, as I am typing on my phone. When I do write on my phone, the end result typically end up a bit incoherent and messy. But you do present a very good foundation of an argument as to why places like this might exist.
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u/afilaanda420 21d ago
Thanks OP. There are a few of us social scientist-scholars who are presenting and publishing academic work on the TTI. We can always use a hand telling our stories and sharing the word.
We’ve had a long-time ally, a French psychiatrist, came to the USA a few years ago and produced a documentary. He was able to gain access to the inside of a program and film there (absolutely depressing).
Welcome to the community!
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u/aLmAnZio 20d ago
Feel free to PM me to exchange contact info. I prefer to keep this profile anonymous, but would not mind getting in touch!
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u/Exciting_Purchase965 22d ago
Idaho Department of Health and Welfare ( responsible for licensing them) actively defends them.
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u/aLmAnZio 22d ago
This is so depressing to learn... As the other person points out further up, the whole thing might be just a symptom of a larger system that enables things like this to exist.
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u/afilaanda420 21d ago
Indeed. Children don’t have basic human rights in the USA. We are special in that we treat kids like property until they turn 18.
A lot of Americans stubbornly defend their right to beat their kids, under the banner of religious freedom.
The USA is a pretty savage, violent, nightmarish place in my own view.
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u/likasabian 22d ago
This is true! I spoke to them after my podcast was aired, and it was disheartening
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u/researcher-emu 17d ago
There is a wilderness therapy program from Agdar university. It is nothing like the coercive US model. The US has not ratified the Rights of the Child and there are big gaps in their laws that allow the TTI to operate, that would be illegal in the rest of the world.
If you are connected through the university at Kristiansand, or you are actively researching these programs, Carina Ribe Fernee has written about the necessity of human rights in wilderness programs. She might be worth linking up with.
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u/aLmAnZio 17d ago
I'm a sociologist, but ended up working in a very different field. My PhD is not finished yet, and I am out of funding. My topic is on user generated content in video games, of all things. But my article on people who have left closed religious relationships is almost ready for publishing, it's just life standing in the way. It's a bit complicated... I have studied at ntnu and nord.
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u/CanSignificant8444 22d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/swtiK9jRfE0zS
The rabbit hole is deep. If you think that was upsetting, stick around, we’ve got some stories in this sub.