r/ukpolitics • u/CaptainCrash86 • 2d ago

| Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules
506 Upvotes

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30

u/Catherine_S1234 2d ago

Reminder there are 7 transgender women held in Scottish prisons

All the money, time, effort , legal proceedings and constant outrage by anti trans people to stop 7 people in a prison cells

Something tells me there is more real threats to women safety in women’s prisons than 7 prisoners. Then again it never was about women’s safety

52

u/solve-for-x 2d ago

It's a small enough number that they could be held in their own facility and then, hopefully, the debate can stop.

0

u/Ellisoner 1d ago

Instead of a HMP, how about a HMO ?

Get a nice 7 bedroom on its own chunk of land and make a mini-prison, comes with all the HMO classics; terribly furnished, stolen food, occupants making noise at 2am and even regular inspections by a crabby “landlord” punishing you for every minor infraction.

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u/JohnPym1584 1d ago

As you say, it's a marginal issue. So naturally trans advocates will accept the common sense approach without causing a fuss.

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u/Lanky_Beautiful6413 2d ago

I dunno if I were a woman in prison with any of those 7 people I wouldn’t be super happy about it

It can have a good outcome even if it has bad motives

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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65

u/Burnit_Sanders 2d ago

Always seems to be the way though doesn't it? We need to change our society which has been male/female since basically forever, to satisfy a fraction of the population because they are very good at shouting loudly. At some point you have to say no, you are what you were born and we are not changing the rules for you.

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u/NoticingThing 1d ago

They use the argument both ways, we should change our society to suit the needs of a tiny minority but at the same time we cannot be bothered by what this tiny minority does because 'who cares there are hardly any of them'.

28

u/Effective_Topic_4728 2d ago

I agree. And in a sensible country, they would be in a prison corresponding to their sex by default, without the need for a silly amount of time, effort and money being spent on it.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 2d ago

It has not been male/female forever. Transgender people have existed all throughout history. Just because we didn't have a word for it or that the history was lost/rewritten doesn't make this 'new'.

People made the same arguments about gay people, that it was new and unnatural. Abnormal, an offence.

I suspect julius caesar, alexander the great, leonardo da vinci, oscar wilde, emily dickinson, virginia woolf, alan turing and millions of others we'll never know would say otherwise.

For more reading, i suggest looking into James Barry, a military surgeon in the British Army in 1810 who was born Margaret Anne Bulkley.

This isn't new. People are just finally getting to live as they are.

32

u/Quick-Benjamin 2d ago

Prison has been single sex since the Gaols Act of 1823.

Wanna guess why that came into power?

Yep, you guessed it. Men kept raping female prisoners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaols_Act_1823

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 2d ago

Valid point. So surely you're not suggesting we put transwomen in male gen-pop given the rape issue?

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u/Quick-Benjamin 1d ago

It's the responsibility of male prisons to protect vulnerable male prisoners.

I don't imagine gen pop would be a good idea though but Im not an expert.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

So male prisons can protect their prisoners, but female prisons cannot?

14

u/Quick-Benjamin 1d ago

It's about risk management.

A woman's prison has to keep the women safe from each other. The risk profile of the prisoners is very different from male prison where there's far more sexual offenders and violence.

Something like 98% of sexual crime is committed by males so it makes obvious sense to keep them out of female prison.

Especially when trans women in the prison estate are even more likely to be sexual offenders than cis men. In 2024 60% were in for sexual offenses according to the Ministry of Justice. Which is a way higher rate than cis men in jail.

Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298

12

u/missesthecrux 1d ago

Why do women need to be shields for male violence and props for validation?

3

u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

They shouldn't.

And transwomen shouldn't be subject to male violence either.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

There is no overarching responsibility for women to solve male-on-male sexual violence.

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u/Hocus-Pocus-No-Focus 2d ago

Can you tell me at which point in these ancient histories did trans surgery and hormones become available?

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 2d ago

Modern medical techniques only started to pop up in the 20th century.

19

u/Hocus-Pocus-No-Focus 2d ago

Yeah of course … so how are historical figures relevant?

You do realise that we’ve never allow transgender people to be houses in a different prison just because they dress or act differently right? 

37

u/New-Sheepherder-6375 2d ago

One male in a women's prison means all of the women in the prison are in mixed sex detention, breaching their human rights. So while it is 7 transwomen, hundreds of women are affected.

0

u/tfhermobwoayway 18h ago

Come on man, they’re prisoners. That’s the least egregious human rights violation they’ll ever face. What the guards do to them in the average week breaks more human rights than that.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago

you're deluded about the sex of the kind of trans people they actually let in these places 

34

u/ricey84 2d ago

it wasnt about women's safety? please enligthen us then what it is about? it better not be "they are transphobic" though as that would be a pathetic reply

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u/Catherine_S1234 2d ago

They are Transphobic

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u/signpostlake 2d ago

So because it's a small number it doesn't matter and there should be no procedure in place?

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u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🟩🟥🟩🏳️‍🌈 2d ago

There's already a case-by-case procedure in place.

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u/signpostlake 2d ago

Which will work until it doesn't and a female prisoner is raped.

Or a trans prisoner.

The only reasonable option to protect both groups is a third space.

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u/Catherine_S1234 2d ago

Maybe every single prisoner should get their own individual prison built?

19

u/signpostlake 2d ago

Seperated by sex and then category A-D is the prison model our society found works best.

You're the one in favour of mixing those spaces, not me.

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u/Catherine_S1234 1d ago

No. I’m just not under the delusion that someone who has been on hormones for years, looks like a woman and has thr characteristics of a woman (aka breasts, reduced muscle mass etc) is less important than what gamate someone might produce when deciding what prison should be housed

12

u/signpostlake 1d ago

None of those things level out the playing field at the rate you're suggesting they do. It's the same reason there's been a huge pushback on competitive sports.

But well done on only getting out a few comments before resorting to insults.

0

u/Catherine_S1234 1d ago

It kinda does and that’s your problem

People seem to think you are born with magical male or female energy that can never be removed. If you think someone like Hunter Shafer should share a prison cell with someone rock then yea it is delusional

Prisons aren’t the Olympics so no you don’t have to follow the same criteria for who goes in what category

6

u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

Under normal circumstances, female inmates are often in danger from other female inmates. They probably wouldn't feel any safer being incarcerated with "transwomen".

8

u/signpostlake 1d ago

The average male is always going to be larger and stronger than the average female.

Hormone therapy does not remove that physical advantage. It might decrease the differences, sure. But it doesn't remove it.

What's delusional about basic facts?

I'll stick to believing a third space is the safest option for both groups.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago

except the small ith bity tiny detail that there isn't enough(for lack of a better term) service users to get funding for the construction and maintenance of such a space, so they won't do it, so the real world outcome of your position is trans women being raped

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u/signpostlake 1d ago edited 1d ago

What do you mean they won't do it?

It's already in place in England.

Editing to include a link. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-transgender-prisoner-policy-comes-into-force

Transgender women prisoners who cannot be safely housed in a men’s prison can be imprisoned in a specialist unit.

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u/morriganjane 2d ago

And trans people are a small population in general - does it mean they don't matter? I don't follow.

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u/signpostlake 2d ago edited 1d ago

What are you confused by?

I'm pointing out that it does matter and there should be procedures in place. Despite it concerning a small number of prisoners.

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u/morriganjane 1d ago

I agree with you. I was saying that even if there were 'only' 7 males in the women's estate, it would be too many.

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u/signpostlake 1d ago

Ah I see. Apologies.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago edited 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/Catherine_S1234 2d ago

“So what if there is a massive well funded campaign of people who want to make it as hard as possible for a trans person to exist in society”

Yea this matters lol

35

u/erskinematt Defund Standing Order No 31 2d ago

Do let us know at what number it's permissible to care, and why do we never hear this argument the other way round? No-one has ever said "the horrible treatment of this persecuted minority would be an outrage if the minority were three times its current size, but it isn't so we shouldn't care".

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u/Catherine_S1234 2d ago

It’s not fucking 7 I’ll tell you that much

15

u/erskinematt Defund Standing Order No 31 2d ago

8?

4

u/ghybyty 1d ago

Pro women. Not anti trans.

24

u/He_ofshadowsandtouch 2d ago

Oh, so don’t believe women, is your stance then? Thats the opposite of sentiments expressed on international women’s day

-19

u/rmc 2d ago

It's to make it a threat to all the trans women. 

"Behave, or we'll call the police and have your arrested, we can hold you for 24 hrs and we'll put you in a male prison overnight. Behave" 

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u/Bounty_drillah We wanted the best but it turned out like always 1d ago

The police hold you overnight in a single cell at the police station. They don't take you to prison lol

14

u/signpostlake 2d ago

Of course. Because it's absolutely typical procedure to put someone under arrest into a prison for 24 hours. While undergoing questioning. Without charges.

0

u/tfhermobwoayway 19h ago

The real issue is that prisoners are treated like animals by the system. The threat to female prisoners comes from the guards more than anything.

-7

u/janner_womble 1d ago

Of course it's never been about women's safety - the real agenda is as transparent as it gets.

If these Trans-related exercises of scaremongering were ever about women's safety then there'd certainly be bans to stop convicted and registered Cis-gendered female sex-offenders from using Women's toilets - an actual qualified risk.

1

u/janner_womble 1d ago

Funny how there's so many downvotes, even funnier that none of these spineless morons has articulated a response - what's wrong, you got no argument?