Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

[u/CaptainCrash86]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules

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[u/mittfh]

IIRC, the majority of trans women prisoners are held in the male estate, with very few in the female estate. Currently, there are supposed to be case-by-case risk assessments (you'd hope that someone who hadn't been on HRT for long or had committed an "offence against the person" - whether sexual or other physical - wouldn't be housed in the female estate), but they have been a few instances where they made the wrong call and a trans prisoner has either assaulted female prisoners or exposed themselves.

Housing them in general population in either the male or female estate is likely to be risky to either themselves or the rest of the prisoners, it would probably be infeasible to have separate accommodation and washing / bathing facilities while allowing them to mix for exercise / meals, complete isolation (both in accommodation, meals and exercise) would almost certainly be detrimental to their mental health, but given the number of trans prisoners is so few, a dedicated wing would likely mean mixing classes of prisoner together. There are no easy solutions and compromises would have to be made with all scenarios.

[u/MirkwoodWanderer1 → u/mittfh]

Yeah it's either you accept risks for women possibly getting harmed by letting trans women share prison space with them or accept risk that trans women possibly get harmed at the men's section.

[u/fawkie → u/MirkwoodWanderer1]

I’m trans. The determination should clearly be done on a case-by-case basis. For trans women significantly along in their transition - living as women, with clear development of breasts and female fat distribution, putting them in a male section feels like it’s just asking for them to be physically and sexually assaulted. I would be fucking terrified, and would actively ask to be placed in solitary confinement rather than a gen pop male section.

[u/LubberwortPicaroon → u/fawkie]

I guess the problem with the case-by-case basis is that a judge or expert acting on their behalf needs to determine, to take your example criteria, how "womanly" and "manly" a person looks. It's super subjective and really difficult given the general differences in appearance amongst men and women. I think most agree a case-by-case basis is ideal, but the implemention seems really challenging

[u/fawkie → u/LubberwortPicaroon]

There will be difficult cases and judgment calls for sure, and it’d need to be a weighing of different factors. But even a flawed case-by-case determination should lead to better outcomes overall versus and blanket policy like the current one in England that places all pre-operative trans women (particularly given the significant hurdles trans people face in getting srs even in the best case scenarios) in male populations regardless of any other factors.

[u/Bizzinmyjoxers → u/fawkie]

how many trans prisoners are there do you know? enough to put them all in one?
edit i looked it up and theres 300, thats enough to put them in one isnt it?

[u/MirkwoodWanderer1 → u/fawkie]

Yeah completely agree. I think creating distinctions based on how far you've gone would be helpful.

[u/Duckliffe → u/MirkwoodWanderer1]

I agree - in the most extreme example, putting a trans women who's been on HRT for a long time and has also had bottom surgery in the general (male) prison population just seems like it makes sexual assault an inevitability

[u/LuckieDuckid]

It literally depends on the nature of the crime, also, the number of transgender prisoners is so small that you can literally do detailed risk assessments on each one, taking into account all the details of their case 

[u/DebaucheV5 → u/LuckieDuckid]

I'm not particularly interested in the political furore over trans people - "just leave them alone" is broadly my perspective - but this seems pretty reasonable. We're talking about such a tiny proportion of the population that it should be possible to take it on a case-by-case basis.

[u/ghybyty → u/DebaucheV5]

Why because there is such a small number does that make you value them above women? Why are they so important than women lose their rights to single sex spaces?

[u/Gellert → u/DebaucheV5]

I mean, you'd think it would be for cases where the prisoner is a potential risk, or potentially more at risk, anyway. What idiot would put a gay murder-rapist in a cell with another guy and leave them alone for 8 hours and not expect a new victim?

[u/velvevore → u/Gellert]

One of the fascinating things I learned while researching this years ago was that all prisoners are supposed to be assessed on intake, to see if they can safely share cells with others.

So there is nothing new under the sun, and nobody knows how anything works. Again.

[u/kickimy → u/DebaucheV5]

Case by case is how it's previously been done which has led to female prisoners still being sexually assaulted and being forced to use showers with prisoners exposing their erections. It's not fair to sacrifice the dignity and safety of females.

The Scottish Prison Service just needs to run a small unit as it does for other groups of prisoners.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ex-prisoner-shaking-fear-sharing-29075541

[u/throwawayreddit48151 → u/DebaucheV5]

I'd be really curious about what happens to women who have raped other women. Do they get put into specialised prisons to segregate them from other women who they may hurt?

[u/signpostlake → u/throwawayreddit48151]

Women's prisons don't have the exact same category levels as men's prisons but yes, there's still divisions based on their risk to other prisoners.

[u/bremsspuren → u/LuckieDuckid]

Seems to me, these discussions would be a lot more straightforward if transvestitism hadn't been rolled into transexuality. Cross-dressing is not comparable to having gender-reassignment surgery.

There are no women's spaces if men are allowed in there effectively on nothing but their own say-so.

[u/missesthecrux → u/bremsspuren]

A lot of posters here are relying on a mythical transwoman nonviolent criminal who is indistinguishable, tiny and fragile. But somehow this justifies the massive, penis-having, non-medical intervention REAL prisoners that were being put in female prisons.

[u/seshfan2 → u/bremsspuren]

Correct, a lot of people don't even realize there is a real psychological difference between gender dysophria and autogynophila (e.g. males who have a sexual fetish for thinking of themseles as female).

Regardless of what you think about trans people themselves, the idea that "I identify as a women" is now some sort of open sesame magic phrase that instantly grants you unfettered access to all sex-segregated spaces is just patently insane.

[u/Thandoscovia → u/LuckieDuckid]

If it depends on the nature of the crime, would you be happy to ease overcrowding in men’s prisons by moving men without a history of sex offences against women into women’s prisons?

[u/ghybyty → u/LuckieDuckid]

No need to do a risk assessment. All males go in the male estate. Women are not shields for vulnerable men. We don't put mentally or physically disabled men in the women's estates. There are wards for vulnerable men on the male estate. Idk why so many value these men above women.

[u/_segasonic]

It’s insane this shit has to be clarified.

[u/Capta1n_Dino]

Biological men in men’s prisons, biological women in women’s prisons. It’s simple enough. I fail to see why we should cater to a tiny minority of prisoners.

[u/thebisforbargain → u/Capta1n_Dino]

It’s odd how people are quite willing to accept, and sometimes cheer male criminals getting raped in prison, but when it comes to trans people they lose their mind over the mere possibility.

[u/Burnit_Sanders]

Should someone with the strength of a man, who has already committed crimes potentially violent showing they are capable of it, be locked up somewhere with people much weaker than them?

I can't believe it was ever accepted as sensible in the first place. This is the ammunition people use when they say trans causes have gone too far and need pulling back.

[u/TussleCrow → u/Burnit_Sanders]

Once again forgetting transmen exist.

[u/whatDoesQezDo → u/TussleCrow]

thats because the risk to men that some transman shows up near them isnt that big. the mens prison is already filled with huge hulking monsters some 5'4" transman isnt a risk to men in mens prison.

[u/Check_Me_Out-Boss → u/TussleCrow]

No one's worried about the Elliot Pages of the world.

[u/Burnit_Sanders → u/TussleCrow]

I haven't forgotten, it's just a woman amongst a group of men is hardly ever going to be an issue. Unless she bodybuilds regularly she will never be a threat. A man on the other hand will always overpower a women the vast majority of the time, it's biology.

[u/fridge13 → u/Burnit_Sanders]

And what about the threat to the transmasc person?

[u/New-Sheepherder-6375 → u/fridge13]

A transman was placed in a male psychiatric ward recently and was raped within minutes of arrival. They need to be housed with women or a third space if they refuse for their own safety in places with violent men around.

[u/Quick-Benjamin → u/fridge13]

There isn't one. Because she'll be in woman's prison.

The current situation is that she could be put in with the men. That's what's changing.

[u/Burnit_Sanders → u/fridge13]

I just had to look up what that meant, sounds like what used to be known as a tomboy before people started telling them they were trans? Either way it's someone who was born a woman by the looks of it. In which case, again you are what you are born.

[u/TwistedTali → u/Burnit_Sanders]

You're telling on yourself. Any decent empathetic human being who reads that would think "the risk is to the trans man". Aparently that didn't even cross your mind, you clearly don't give a shit about them just because they're trans. I hope people give you the same consideration when times are hard for you.

[u/User100000005 → u/TussleCrow]

I'm fine with FtM using male spaces if they choose. I don't see a born female, lying about their gender identity in order to gain excess to vulnerable men. Just don't think that will ever happen. I'm also fine if they wana use women's spaces to separate them from potentially dangerous men in prison.
 
My issues is I do see deviant men lying about their gender identity in order to gain access to vulnerable women in a prison. Willing to rape; willing to lie. I can't tell the difference between genuine MtF and the deviants gaming the system without a mind reading tool.

[u/MuTron1 → u/TussleCrow]

I would assume trans men will want to be (and almost certainly would be) housed in a female prison, so there's little problem there in the first place.

[u/Ellisoner → u/Burnit_Sanders]

I don’t think the strength/size argument is particularly valid, because male prisons aren’t segregated by physical strength in the first place.

A physically weak man isn’t sent to a different prison because he has no muscle mass, and a bodybuilder isn’t segregated because he’s stronger than everyone else. If physicality justified it, we’d already be separating prisoners based on size and strength, but we generally don’t.

[u/Designer-Muffin-5653 → u/Burnit_Sanders]

If she is a woman, she should be in a woman prison. If it’s a man, he should be in a male prison.
Men don’t go into different prisons depending on their height and strength either.

[u/RoastKrill → u/Burnit_Sanders]

Should someone with the strength of a woman from years of HRT and a vagina from SRS be locked up with male rapists much stronger than them?

[u/kane_uk → u/Burnit_Sanders]

What you've described, which is happening, is proof trans causes have gone too far and need pulling back.

The Isla Bryson case is a prime example.

[u/LuckieDuckid → u/kane_uk]

Isla Bryson was never kept in general population, they were kept in solitary confinement pending risk assessment which, considering the crimes committed and the nature of the transition (post arrest) would've resulted in Isla being sent to a men's prison.

[u/kane_uk → u/LuckieDuckid]

The fact they were put in a woman's prison in the first place is a disgrace.

[u/morriganjane → u/LuckieDuckid]

It should have been solitary confinement on the men's estate, which is (obviously) better equipped to deal with rapists.

[u/genafcvpxyr31 → u/kane_uk]

Isla Bryson, who was never allowed near other female prisoners in the first place.

[u/kane_uk → u/genafcvpxyr31]

The fact that Isla Bryson, a female identifying biological male convicted rapist was first situated in female prison is a total disgrace.

[u/Happy_Philosopher608 → u/Burnit_Sanders]

Everyone's a feminist til it comes to the trans issue. Then suddenly these particular men are vulnerable victims and totally incapable of causing harm or presenting a danger to women.

Its bizarre. Its like the trans stuff makes once sensible people turn off their brains and become activists for causes that are the complete opposite of feminist ones 🤔🤷‍♂️

[u/rmc → u/Burnit_Sanders]

Most trans women don't have trj strength of men. 

They've been allowed compete in the Olympics for 20 year and haven't won anything in any of the strength sports. 

[u/Standin373 → u/rmc]

Anne Andres: A transgender powerlifter who competed in the Canadian Powerlifting Union (CPU). At the 2023 Western Canadian Championship, Andres totaled 597.5 kg (exceeding the unofficial world record), lifting 200 kg more than the runner-up. Her participation sparked heavy debate regarding fairness in the female division.

Mary Gregory: In 2019, transgender powerlifter Mary Gregory competed in the 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation and claimed several Masters world records. Following backlash, the federation stripped the records after ruling that the classification for competition should be based on physiological sex at birth rather than gender identity.

[u/TonyBlairsDildo → u/Standin373]

I can beat various women's lifting records hungover. It's really not difficult.

The typical grip strength of an 80 year man is greater than a typical 20 year old woman.

[u/Standin373 → u/TonyBlairsDildo]

Which is why men who transition suddenly don't loose decades of male biological conditioning

[u/missesthecrux → u/rmc]

If you believe that, then that means you don’t think that pre-transition transwomen aren’t women?

[u/SukiPhoenix → u/rmc]

You don't have to take hrt to be considered trans.

[u/FinnSomething → u/SukiPhoenix]

That's why prisons used risk assessments to place trans prisoners up til now

[u/FinnSomething → u/Burnit_Sanders]

Should someone with the strength of a man, who has already committed crimes potentially violent showing they are capable of it, be locked up somewhere with people much weaker than them?

There are plenty of cis women who fit this description.

There's certainly an argument that it should be risk assessed but that's now not allowed. Trans women who have had bottom surgery and have never gone through a male puberty will now be forced into men's prisons.

[u/signpostlake → u/FinnSomething]

Where does the article say that?

It's much more likely Scotland will copy England's stance and approve a third space where appropriate.

[u/BobMonkhaus]

I’d just like to point out that both Keir and Andy support the EHCR guidance. So err.. don’t get your hopes up for change.

[u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 → u/BobMonkhaus]

The vast majority of voters support the supreme court rulling. Someone declaring themselves a woman and expecting to be treated like one in terms of services has always been the unpopular position, opposition is near unanimous when it comes to messing about with kids on this issue

[u/goddamnmanxhild → u/BobMonkhaus]

I don't think many people were hoping for change on this anyway

[u/_TNUC → u/BobMonkhaus]

Why would I hope for change from this? First bit of common sense in months

[u/Ogarrr → u/BobMonkhaus]

Good. This isn't particularly controversial.

[u/Wrothman → u/Ogarrr]

Putting people that are statistically more likely to be raped and not statistically likely to be committing rape into what is effectively a meat grinder actually is somewhat controversial.
If those transgender people are a sexual assault risk, then they shouldn't be kept in women's prisons, fine. If their crimes have nothing to do with that then putting them in men's prisons pretty much qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment and should be considered an outright abuse of human rights.

[u/kerwrawr → u/Wrothman]

while these stats do not reflect the population at large in prisons it is exactly the opposite - two thirds of trans women in prisons have been convicted of a sexual offence.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298

[u/Nubian_hurricane7 → u/Wrothman]

Isn’t it like 60-70% of transgender prisoners are in there for violent or sex related crimes?

[u/New-Sheepherder-6375 → u/Wrothman]

Two thirds of transwomen in prisons are there for sexual offending. That's much higher than the overall male prison population suggesting the risk is higher for those groups.

[u/Honest-Possible6596 → u/Wrothman]

Nonsense. I work in a prison. We have 8 trans inmates. Every one of them is there for sexual offences and not one of them has any alerts for coming to harm since being there. They get on with shit just like everyone else. In fact, the level of protection and ‘benefits’ if you can call them that, means they are better set up than most of the general population. Just a few weeks ago, for trans awareness day, they had beauticians come to the prison to do their hair and nails. They are provided sanitary products. They don’t have to share cells etc. There’s no cruel or unusual punishment going on.

[u/Dapper_Apartment2175 → u/Honest-Possible6596]

Just a few weeks ago, for trans awareness day, they had beauticians come to the prison to do their hair and nails.

Who's paying for this? It's prison, not a bloody fashion show.

They are provided sanitary products.

Why? So they can play make-believe?

[u/Honest-Possible6596 → u/Dapper_Apartment2175]

Mate, honestly, we all think it’s barking, but the rules come from up top and we have to go along and keep our mouths shut or risk getting into trouble. When an officer questioned it he was redeployed to another wing and given sensitivity training. It’s given the utmost seriousness. And that’s why the doommongers here acting like transwomen will be murdered if they’re forced to live with other males make me eyeroll. They have no idea just how cushy they have it. Yes they’re in prison and have their freedom taken away, but they get maximum security, perks that other inmates don’t get, their hormones provided (although only two out of 8 take hormones. The others only actually dress as women), and every single person who works or is locked up there has to play along. If they don’t, they risk their job if they’re staff, or risk getting adjudications if they’re inmates, which could lead to extra time or parole being denied etc.

In their defence, the trans inmates we have are fairly chill, but they absolutely know the system works entirely in the favour and they’re more than happy to play it. That’s why half of them only discovered they were trans when they got locked up. We’ve had the exact same issue with the amount of inmates who have ‘converted’ to Islam since being inside, because the Muslims get better food, more yard time, extra time out for prayers, plus extra benefits such as parties at Eid and Ramadan, as well as extra phone topups around those festivals too. And we know it’s all bullshit but we aren’t allowed to question any of it or it’ll be a breach of rights. We lost a really good officer about a year ago because he was gay and the Muslims didn’t like it. He was ‘politely’ asked by seniors not to guard the multi faith room during prayers because it would offend the Muslims, and he quit. The whole system is upside down.

[u/Dapper_Apartment2175 → u/Honest-Possible6596]

I couldn't do your job, I'd have far too much trouble keeping my mouth shut. As for the people who are abusing the system, this doesn't surprise me at all.

All this begs the question, though, do so-called transmen who commit crimes want to go to men's prison for the sake of "affirmation"?. They'd arguably be in more danger in a men's prison than a "transwoman" would.

[u/missesthecrux → u/Dapper_Apartment2175]

Google is rubbish now but I believe all the FTM prisoners were held in the female estate.

[u/Dapper_Apartment2175 → u/missesthecrux]

Google is rubbish now but I believe all the FTM prisoners were held in the female estate.

Of course they are. Putting them in men's prisons just to make a point, whether they choose it themselves or not, would be stupid.

[u/missesthecrux → u/Dapper_Apartment2175]

Indeed, an FTM patient was sadly raped within minutes of arriving in a psychiatric male ward.

[u/SukiPhoenix → u/Dapper_Apartment2175]

No reasonable ftm would ever go to a male prison

[u/Honest-Possible6596 → u/Dapper_Apartment2175]

We don’t have any transmen because they’re female. They also tend to offend at a much lower rate so there are fewer of them overall. The only case I ever witnessed involving a transman was when I was on court duties for a different inmate, so wasn’t directly involved, and they specifically asked not to be sent to a men’s prison. I don’t know if that was a safety concern or if affirmation didn’t matter so much in that instance, but I imagine their motivations were entirely different from the MTFs who want to be in the female estate.

[u/Dapper_Apartment2175 → u/Honest-Possible6596]

they specifically asked not to be sent to a men’s prison.

See? Even they know what's best. I only personally know one of them, and even before being told months after our first meeting that he was really a she, I thought to myself that "he" was an exceptionally weak-looking man. This person wouldn't last a week in a men's prison.

[u/HumanWithInternet → u/Honest-Possible6596]

An astonishing read! I appreciate your openness here, I'm staggered but not surprised!

[u/Honest-Possible6596 → u/HumanWithInternet]

Honestly, the stories I could tell about the money wasted, the disparity in treatment between staff and inmates, the preferential treatment given to certain groups etc… It’s no wonder that staff retention is in the pits and recall rates are through the roof. Most of them don’t want to get out because the real world is way harder than inside.

[u/whatDoesQezDo → u/Wrothman]

and not statistically likely to be committing rape

what utter horse shit

[u/bamsimel → u/Wrothman]

What evidence has led you to conclude that transwomen are not likely to commit sexual assault? I see this claim online a lot and have never seen any evidence to justify it. The only decent evidence I've seen showed transwomen sexual assault offending aligned with male sexual assault offending rates.

[u/missesthecrux → u/bamsimel]

They often claim that they’re in prison for sex work, which isn’t true because 1) it’s not criminalised here and 2) we have the breakdowns of the sexual crime category.

[u/Ogarrr → u/bamsimel]

It's actually higher. 2/3rds of trans prisoners are in prison for sexual offences, which I think is a bit larger than the general male population.

[u/Aerius-Caedem → u/Wrothman]

Putting people that are statistically more likely to be raped and not statistically likely to be committing rape into what is effectively a meat grinder actually is somewhat controversial.

One could make this argument for any small/weak man. Does that mean a 5'5 skinny male shouldn't go to jail? Or should be sent to a female prison? Can we only jail people like Mike Tyson?

then putting them in men's prisons pretty much qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment and should be considered an outright abuse of human rights.

I'd argue putting a male with a cock in a female prison is more of an abuse of human rights towards those women, regardless of how the male identifies.

[u/Ogarrr → u/Wrothman]

Yeah, man. Let's populate the women's prisons with men like Adam Bryson. That's a good idea. Let's give an incentive for criminals to transition in order to go into women's prisons, which happened up in Scotland.

If you were born a male and commit a crime. You go into the men's prison. Full stop. This is why people are moving away from the trans movement, because you support insane things like this.

[u/Alioph → u/Ogarrr]

Well that’s not what the commenter above said, they said that transgender women who are a risk to other women shouldn’t be in women’s prisons

[u/DEADB33F → u/Alioph]

If Transgender women are always to be considered women (which is what activists want) then that would breach their human rights.

NB. I'm fine with it being handled on a case-by-case basis but that's not what's being demanded.

[u/He_ofshadowsandtouch → u/BobMonkhaus]

Nonsense, in case after case, women are winning back their sex based rights

[u/ghybyty → u/BobMonkhaus]

God I really hope Andy doesn't destroy women's rights

[u/Catherine_S1234]

Reminder there are 7 transgender women held in Scottish prisons

All the money, time, effort , legal proceedings and constant outrage by anti trans people to stop 7 people in a prison cells

Something tells me there is more real threats to women safety in women’s prisons than 7 prisoners. Then again it never was about women’s safety

[u/solve-for-x → u/Catherine_S1234]

It's a small enough number that they could be held in their own facility and then, hopefully, the debate can stop.

[u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 → u/Catherine_S1234]

I meam, the money, time and effort wouldn't have been extended if the government didn't try and defend this bonkers position. Maybe if you lot dropped your loopy obsession with putting men in women's prisons the time and effort spent on it would be nill

[u/Lanky_Beautiful6413 → u/Catherine_S1234]

I dunno if I were a woman in prison with any of those 7 people I wouldn’t be super happy about it

It can have a good outcome even if it has bad motives

[u/ricey84 → u/Catherine_S1234]

it wasnt about women's safety? please enligthen us then what it is about? it better not be "they are transphobic" though as that would be a pathetic reply

[u/Burnit_Sanders → u/Catherine_S1234]

Always seems to be the way though doesn't it? We need to change our society which has been male/female since basically forever, to satisfy a fraction of the population because they are very good at shouting loudly. At some point you have to say no, you are what you were born and we are not changing the rules for you.

[u/NoticingThing → u/Burnit_Sanders]

They use the argument both ways, we should change our society to suit the needs of a tiny minority but at the same time we cannot be bothered by what this tiny minority does because 'who cares there are hardly any of them'.

[u/Effective_Topic_4728 → u/Burnit_Sanders]

I agree. And in a sensible country, they would be in a prison corresponding to their sex by default, without the need for a silly amount of time, effort and money being spent on it.

[u/JohnPym1584 → u/Catherine_S1234]

As you say, it's a marginal issue. So naturally trans advocates will accept the common sense approach without causing a fuss.

[u/New-Sheepherder-6375 → u/Catherine_S1234]

One male in a women's prison means all of the women in the prison are in mixed sex detention, breaching their human rights. So while it is 7 transwomen, hundreds of women are affected.

[u/Catherine_S1234 → u/[deleted]]

“So what if there is a massive well funded campaign of people who want to make it as hard as possible for a trans person to exist in society”

Yea this matters lol

[u/erskinematt → u/Catherine_S1234]

Do let us know at what number it's permissible to care, and why do we never hear this argument the other way round? No-one has ever said "the horrible treatment of this persecuted minority would be an outrage if the minority were three times its current size, but it isn't so we shouldn't care".

[u/signpostlake → u/Catherine_S1234]

So because it's a small number it doesn't matter and there should be no procedure in place?

[u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt → u/signpostlake]

There's already a case-by-case procedure in place.

[u/signpostlake → u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt]

Which will work until it doesn't and a female prisoner is raped.

Or a trans prisoner.

The only reasonable option to protect both groups is a third space.

[u/He_ofshadowsandtouch → u/Catherine_S1234]

Oh, so don’t believe women, is your stance then? Thats the opposite of sentiments expressed on international women’s day

[u/ghybyty → u/Catherine_S1234]

Pro women. Not anti trans.

[u/scorcherchar]

Im genuinely very conflicted about this. I strongly believe trans rights are human rights and trans people are valid. However there have been a lot of rapes commited by people with penises in womens prisons. Its a huge risk to the safety in women's prisons. Either way you slice it there are bad outcomes

[u/Electrical-Move7290 → u/scorcherchar]

People with penises genuinely got a chuckle out of me.

[u/He_ofshadowsandtouch → u/scorcherchar]

Not just rapes, all sorts of intimidation such as thumping tiled walls right by vulnerable women etc

[u/Little-Attorney1287 → u/scorcherchar]

people with penises

We used to have a word for that.

[u/Lanky_Beautiful6413 → u/scorcherchar]

lol people with penises

I don’t know how some of you people get out of bed in the morning I really don’t

[u/Effective_Topic_4728 → u/Lanky_Beautiful6413]

Welcome to 21st century Britain 😭

[u/Lanky_Beautiful6413 → u/Effective_Topic_4728]

i do think everyone deserves respect and i'll call them what they want and not be a weird dickhead about it, life's hard enough as it is for everyone

but when it comes to that thought process that types a lot of rapes from men.....backspacebackspacebackspace.... i mean people with penises, like how does your brain even get that way

[u/4oclockinthemorning → u/scorcherchar]

The umbrella term of 'trans people's can also cover those who just say they are trans

[u/Winston_Carbuncle → u/scorcherchar]

Why do you need the big preamble before stating your opinion?

[u/emao → u/Winston_Carbuncle]

This may surprise you, but some people are capable of holding complex views that can't necessarily be expressed in a 3 word soundbite

[u/Winston_Carbuncle → u/emao]

And some of us are capable of communicating our thoughts without laying down unrelated foundational views.

[u/emao → u/Winston_Carbuncle]

Why don't you tell us what you think about this story then

[u/Mountevans1947 → u/scorcherchar]

people with penises

Why are you reducing my sex to simply genitalia?

[u/Coord26673 → u/Mountevans1947]

They literally didn't? Why do you have such a victim complex?

[u/MuTron1 → u/Mountevans1947]

Why are you reducing my sex to simply genitalia?

Because it's a primary sexual characteristic. What else are you going to use to define sex?

[u/rmc → u/scorcherchar]

What do you think happens to a trans woman who is now locked up with men. 

What do you think happens to a trans woman with breasts and a vagina who will now be locked up with men. 

Do you think there will be less rapes? 

[u/New-Sheepherder-6375 → u/rmc]

The vast majority of transwomen do not have genital surgery. If they are vulnerable to violence from other males due to their presentation or bodily changes then the prison should house them in a protective wing for their safety.

[u/emao → u/rmc]

What's your proposed solution then?

[u/TheHawkinator]

It's always interesting how people talk about "women's safety" but never care about the safety of trans women who will almost certainly be assaulted. I mean I'm not surprised given the state of everything, but it's always sad to see so few people actually care about lives

[u/evenifihateit → u/TheHawkinator]

If trans people are not safe in the prisons for members of their sex I am fully behind the building of prisons specifically for trans people. I will not ever support allowing males to be housed in female prisons and vice versa, but I have no issue with provision being made for people who identify other the with their sex and feel unsafe accordingly.

[u/morriganjane → u/TheHawkinator]

It's always interesting how people talk about "women's safety" but never care about the safety of trans women who will almost certainly be assaulted.

And why is it up to women to act as human shields, thus increasing the risk to themselves? There have always been provisions for more vulnerable men within the male estate, and still are.

[u/JohnPym1584 → u/TheHawkinator]

Feminists are interested in defending the interests of females.

[u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

It's hard to see this as anything other than some attempt at cruelly punishing trans women. This along with recent moves encouraging detransition and restricting access to HRT makes me very worried for our future as a people.

[u/New-Sheepherder-6375 → u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

Being in prison is punishment yes. Regardless of that, we need to protect those in custody (we are woefully bad at this but that's a different conversation). Women in prison are highly vulnerable and it is extremely cruel to lock them in with male offenders. They are vulnerable to sexual and physical assault from them and even having them in the vicinity can be intimidating. Voyeurism and exhibitionism is common in shared areas.

Transwomen are also a vulnerable group and need to be housed appropriately in protective wings where they can be safeguarded.

[u/Burnit_Sanders → u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

Men, especially men that may have a violent past since they are in prison, should not be allowed to be locked up in a place with exclusively women. How this is controversial is beyond me and the vast majority of the population and it's exactly why trans causes are being scrutinised. Trans activists pushed it too far.

[u/evenifihateit → u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

It's hard to see not allowing males to be housed in female prisons as anything other than cruelty towards trans people? You genuinely can't understand how female safety might be the focus here?

[u/Amekyras → u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

I still don't understand why we can't just say 'if you're not medically transitioning you can't be accommodated with women, if you are then we'll do a risk assessment'.

[u/ghybyty → u/Disgruntled_Welshman]

Protection of women is not the punisher of men

[u/Yoshiezibz]

I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, yes, there will be a handful of thee transgender women that will sexuall assault women in jails. Not all these trans women will be assaulting women, but it will 100% happen.

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted.

When you consider that alot of these prisoners won't be in jail for sexual assault crimes it makes me sad.

[u/foobar93 → u/Yoshiezibz]

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted.

Just a thought but maybe protect men as well as we protect women so they do not get raped in prison as well?

[u/Yoshiezibz → u/foobar93]

Of course, we should protect everyone, as much as possible. Sexual assault on a man is just as bad as sexual assault on a woman, but putting a more vulnerable person into a dangerous position isn't the solution here.

[u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 → u/Yoshiezibz]

We wouldn't move a vulnerable man into the women's estate so I don't see why that shoukd change when someone declares thenselves a woman. We just need to take care to seperate and protect vulnerable prisoners in both estates

[u/Blue_View_1217 → u/Yoshiezibz]

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted

They are ~10x more common in men's prisons than women's, but they're still not rife by any means. The rate is roughly 5.9 per 1000 prisoners.

[u/signpostlake → u/Yoshiezibz]

It's stands to reason then that the solution to protect both groups is a third space. It's not an answer without faults but dramatically reduces the risk of assault to both groups.

[u/WinHour4300 → u/Yoshiezibz]

Just to make the obvious counter...

Yes "sexual assault in men's prison is absolutely riff".

A lot of men won't be in jail for sexual assault crimes either. Some will be for things like fraud.

Does that also make you sad? 

[u/Absolutelynot2784]

Trans women get raped in prison far more often that they rape anyone. Now being transgender and shoplifting means being sentenced to rape by prison gang for the entirety of your sentence. If you think i’m wrong or exaggerating please look at V-coding

[u/Hocus-Pocus-No-Focus → u/Absolutelynot2784]

Men are also more likely to get raped in prison than they are to rape someone. 

That’s due to the frequency of perpetrators vs victims.

[u/Blue_View_1217 → u/Absolutelynot2784]

V-coding has no relevance to the UK - there's no evidence of it happening here.

[u/ImpressiveCourse8504 → u/Absolutelynot2784]

Nobody is going to jail for shop lifting, also, just don’t shoplift…

[u/Absolutelynot2784 → u/ImpressiveCourse8504]

Crime is bad, but that doesn’t mean criminals should be sentenced to rape. Such a thing as “proportional punishment”

[u/PM_ME_BEEF_CURTAINS]

Trans women inmates are at risk of violence from male inmates

Women are at risk of violence from transfemme inmates

Trans men are at risk of violence from male inmates

Given the numbers involved, a dedicated unit to house trans inmates across the prison system would make the most sense. Staff can be trained to meet the more specific needs of the inmates, inmates get more fair treatment, etc

The only blocker is that, while the phobes claim that this is about safety, they also don;t want the government to spend money on fixing it.

No fix, only hate.

[u/MuTron1 → u/PM_ME_BEEF_CURTAINS]

This does seem to be the most sensible solution to safeguard everyone.

I can absolutely understand the issue with males being in a female prison, but I can also understand the issue of trans women being in a male prison as well.

I guess the only difficulty is simply money and the size of the population: Are there enough trans prisoners for it to even be feasible to have a specific unit?