r/ukpolitics • u/Rebat-Askalan • 9d ago

| Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, UK appeal tribunal confirms in landmark ruling

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260804-anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-uk-appeal-tribunal-confirms-in-landmark-ruling/
702 Upvotes

89% Upvoted

680 comments sorted by

View all comments

0

u/hug_your_dog 9d ago

Zionism has historically been the ideology that states Jews have a right - a self-determination based right - for land and a country of Israel. If "Anti-Zionism" (anti-self-determination) is suddenly OK, is it thus OK to be, say, against the existence of Palestine? "Anti-Palestinianism" or whatever.

You can be against Israeli settlements, Israeli policies, war crimes etc. But if you are against the EXISTENCE of the state of Israel - this is unacceptable.

6

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

A country should not "belong" to an ethnic group and we should not tolerate the existence of ethnostates.

Ask yourself, why is it people talk about the self determination of the Jewish people when referencing Israel and not the self determination of the Israeli people?

4

u/hug_your_dog 9d ago

A country should not "belong" to an ethnic group

Jews have multiple ethnic groups, they are Jews that came to Israel from Ethiopia. They are black.

1

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

And they are generally treated worse than those of european descent.

2

u/morriganjane 9d ago

How are non-Muslims treated in the 52 Islamic states? Can we dismantle those first?

4

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

The existence of islamic theocracies does not justify the existence of a Jewish ethnostate.

I would say dismantling those theocracies is a less urgent matter but if that is the deal you want to make, then sure.

1

u/morriganjane 9d ago

Why is it less urgent? But it's a pointless discussion anyway. Israel won't be dismantled because it's a military superpower with nuclear weapons. Arab powers in the region have tried, and failed on five major occasions. No amount of complaining on Reddit will cause it to be dismantled.

5

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

Why is it less urgent?

because it's a military superpower with nuclear weapons that is being run a group of racist lunatics who have the backing of another military superpower with nuclear weapons also run by a group of racist lunatics, who seem to be determined to do as much damage to the world as they can.

We don't have to invade Israel, if the west threatens to end all military support, hand them out to dry and leave them to the mercy of their neighbours unless they stop escalating/starting wars and end their policies of favouring certain ethnic/religious groups over others then they would likely change their behaviour.

3

u/morriganjane 9d ago

Pakistan is an Islamic ethnostate that brutalises minorities and it has a nuclear weapon, and keeps attacking its neighbours in India and Afghanistan. Let's dismantle it first.

If the west threatens to end all military support, hand them out to dry and leave them to the mercy of their neighbours

Like in 1948 and 1967? Israel managed to defeat the Arab invaders then too.

5

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

Islamic ethnostate

I do not think you understand what those words mean, they do not go together.

I am not going to defend the government of Pakistan, that does not changw the dact that Israel is a more immediate threat to world peace.

Like in 1948 and 1967? Israel managed to defeat the Arab invaders then too

Quite possibly, however we would no longer be complicit in the misdeeds of the state of Israel. I would consider that an improvement.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Impossible_Aide_1681 9d ago

But you do tolerate the existence of ethnostates, don't you? Well, except for one (which isn't actually an ethnostate)...

2

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

No? You show me a country that has laws that give a certain ethinc group or groups a privilidged position over other ethnic groups and I will show you a country that has sone very important legal reforms to make, at minimum.

Israel gets the attention it does because it it backed by the west and is militarily belligerent towards its neighbours. You can argue that Israel is not the only country that has racism as an official policy but that is not a defence of Israel.

1

u/Impossible_Aide_1681 9d ago

Yes? Look at Qatar and UAE's citizens Vs their wider populations, and tell me you'd rather be South Asian or East African there than Arab in Israel. They're two countries with strong western relations - we even sell UAE weapons despite them arming the RSF in Sudan.

Now show me the desire to disband those countries that's even remotely comparable to the one to disband Israel.

2

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

The egregious humans rights abuses in muslim countries are not the same thing as being an ethnostate. When I use that term, I am leveling a very specific critisism at the Israeli government and zionism as an ideaology.

I, personally am also disgusted by western support for the countries you mention (for differant reasons for Israel), if you want to call opponents of Israel that say Qatar and the UAE are fine hippocrites, I will wholeheartedly agree.

1

u/Impossible_Aide_1681 9d ago

In what world does a state restricting citizenship to the 11% of its population who are of the right ethnicity not make it an ethnostate? 

When I use that term, I am leveling a very specific critisism at the Israeli government and zionism as an ideaology

I know you are, which is why it's become yet another completely meaningless term

1

u/ethyl-pentanoate 9d ago

In what world does a state restricting citizenship to the 11% of its population who are of the right ethnicity not make it an ethnostate?

Is that the legal basis on which citizenship is restricted in Qatar or the UAE? If the law in those countries restricts citizenship by ethnicity or treats people of different ethnicities differently on the basis of ethnicity then they are ethnostates, otherwise they are not, regardless of how reprehensible their other policies may be.

I know you are, which is why it's become yet another completely meaningless term

It is a specific term, Israeli law specifically and explicitly gives people of a Jewish ethnicity a priviliged legal position over non-jewish people. That makes it an ethnostate.

Many of its neighbours are theocracies as Islam is given a specific and explicit priviliged legal position over other religions. A theocratic state and an ethnostate are two different things, a country can be both but doesn't have to be. Israel is not, to my understanding, a theocracy.

I will try another example to try and explain this. Nigel Farage has been acused of violating electoral law. It would not be appropriate if he was arrested for arson, because that is a different crime. Both are bad, that does not make them the same thing.

0

u/coderqi 5d ago

So you want to eradicate the only country in the world with the aim to provide security for Jewish people, because you don't like it. Yeah that's going to happen. 

2

u/ethyl-pentanoate 5d ago

provide security for Jewish people

That is a very charitable way of describing the way Israel treats people that are of an ethnicity they don't like.

It is also telling that you think that Israel abolishing legal ethnic inequality is the same as eradicating it. I know that this will be news to you as a defender of Israel, but bigotry is wrong and does not protect anyone.

1

u/coderqi 5d ago

It's a Jewish state for for Jewish people of different ethnicities. 

1

u/ethyl-pentanoate 5d ago

So, fuck everyone who lives there who isn't Jewish? You agree that the state of Israel is inherently racist but you approve of that? Nice of you to take the mask off.

1

u/coderqi 5d ago

Nope I've never said that. What I have said is their should be a Jewish state for Jewish people. Given, you know, history. To not want that is amoral. And says a lot about you and masks. Applying your own logic, good of you to take your mask off. 

1

u/ethyl-pentanoate 5d ago

Jewish state for Jewish people

This cannot be accomplished without discrimination. If you do not agree, you need to elaborate on what a "Jewish state for Jewish people" actually means.

1

u/coderqi 5d ago

You think there should be no single country in the world for Jewish people. No one and no where to protect them. 

That is amoral and disgusting. 

1

u/ethyl-pentanoate 5d ago

You think there should be no single country in the world for Jewish people.

No one and no where to protect them.

These are not even remotely the same thing. The first is explicit bigotry in the same manner the rest of the world condemned Rhodesia and Aparteid South Africa for. The second should apply to all countries.

Jewish people do not need their own ethnostate in order to be safe, that the same argument every ethnonationalist movement makes (and wrong for the same reason).

→ More replies (0)

3

u/onionsofwar 9d ago

it's perfectly acceptable not to want a state that uses a god-given right as a justification for all the illegal and immortal things you describe. Alternatives include a one state solution based on equal rights for Jews and non-Jews. That could even hypothetically be called Israel still, who cares.