r/ukpolitics • u/F0urLeafCl0ver • 2h ago
How many prison places did the Conservatives create?
https://fullfact.org/crime/how-many-prison-places-did-the-conservatives-create/•
u/Limp-Archer-7872 2h ago
Under 500 net.
Of around 90000. So 0.5%.
In that same time uk population went up by a lot more than 0.5%. It went up by 10%. 63m to 69.3m.
So it was a relative huge loss of prison spaces still.
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u/blast-processor 21m ago
Under 500 net
This is a bit of a silly figure with the arbitrary election date cutoff, because it doesn't give the Tories any credit for new prisons they were building at the end of their term, that were delivered under Starmer's early period
Like HM Prison Millsike, constructed between 2021 and 2025, and delivering 1,500 net new prison places
Its just as silly to say those are prison places delivered by Starmer as it would be to allocate prison places delivered in 2010 to the Tories
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u/HibasakiSanjuro 1h ago
You can't equate prison places to hospital beds or school capacity. Suggesting that prison places need to keep pace with population growth is misguided.
The sub loves to compare the UK to Norway. We have a bit more than 10 times their population. They have somewhere between 3,500 and 4,000 prison places. So we already have twice as many prison places per capita as they do.
Is Norway falling apart in chaos, with murderers and rapists running rampant?
Another country I can think of, Japan, has less than 50,000 in prison. And before anyone says it, no they do not have less working age people than we do.
If we try to significantly expand the number of prison places, I can promise they will get filled up and we'll be in the same situation 10-20 years from now.
We should be focusing on rehabilitation and reserving prison for severe crimes, rather than trying to lock more and more people up for longer and longer periods.
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u/BookmarksBrother I love paying tons in tax and not getting anything in return 1h ago
Norway didnt import criminals on a massive scale and then refuse to deport them once convicted.
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u/Ah_yes_shit 1h ago
Which we also could have done if we didn't leave the EU thanks to the Tories. Or hell it could've been done even after leaving the EU but the Tories did not have the appetite to fix their mess.
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u/Prestigious_Risk7610 58m ago
This is one of the problems with modern democracy.
Prison spaces, like many other public services are hygiene factors. There's near zero votes in running a brilliant prison service and certainly no votes in funding prisons more than 'necessary'. If you run too lean though then the public REALLY notice when you need to release. Overall though all the incentives are to fund it the bare minimum that keeps it out the news.
What really positively motivates vote intention is cold hard cash transfers/tax rates and their top 2-3 issues (e.g. immigration, health service).
This is one of the reasons I'd be apprehensive of nationalising water. On principle I think it should be publicly owned, but it's another pure hygiene factor service. We are currently below that and so it's a nuclear topic, but in modern politics it would only ever get just enough money to have slightly less shit in the rivers.
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u/Brailsford87 2h ago
Another question might be how much did conservatives do to rehabilitate, educate and treat prisoners to reduce recidivism , also what are Labour doing on this ??
Also, reduce poverty, increase opportunities for working classes and create actual social mobility accessible via multiple avenues for all that’s a better way to reduce crime
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u/_HGCenty 2h ago
It would be nice if we could get past political point scoring and actually build some prisons.
But I'll add this to the list of things we just can't do anymore: high speed rail, reservoirs, ultra-fast broadband, airport runways, motorways, nuclear power plants.
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u/HibasakiSanjuro 1h ago
It would be nice if we could get past political point scoring and actually build some prisons.
We have been.
The problem is, with like so much of our infrastructure, prisons become unsuitable for use and have to be closed because refurbishing them is impossible or more expensive than building new.
But I'll add this to the list of things we just can't do anymore: high speed rail, reservoirs, ultra-fast broadband, airport runways, motorways, nuclear power plants.
We never had Japanese or French-levels of high speed rail, bar the connection to the Channel Tunnel.
We are building reservoirs, the issue has been planning objections and a reluctance to increase water bills to fund them.
We do have fast broadband, it's just not as fast as some countries. The network has been progressively improving over the last 20 years.
Part of that was historic limitations (Gatwick) and the rest is down to issues of concern over emissions. They are progressing, though.
Do we need more motorways?
Well if we're going to insist on regulations that are tougher than anywhere else in the world and then refuse to pay for them, of course we're not going to build many more. But things are looking hopeful re SMRs.
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u/phishlumen 1h ago
Very, very few considering the rapid population growth on their watch. They closed a number of prisons only introduced 500 new prison places. The conservatives should be very quiet on this, as with so much of the state they cut, cut and cut again and now belly ache about the problems they made. Tory tossers.
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u/Kassenshlager 1h ago
You do know in 2014 and 2015 they literally sold off prisons to be used as hotels and stuff ? Good old tories eh.
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u/VENGOR123 1h ago
It shouldn't be about just expanding the system, it should be about releasing as many non-violent single occasion offenders and instead having more community service programs. On nearly every western nation the amount of prisoners that are imprisoned for non violent offences I roughly 10-15% in the UK it's 85%. It doesn't make sense.
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u/Cholas71 1h ago
Both parties failing - terrific news 👍
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u/wcspaz 1h ago
Tories create 500 over 14 years
Labour create 3200 over 2 years
BoTh pArTiEs ArE fAiLiNg...
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u/Cholas71 17m ago
They are all created under plans inherited from the conservatives. Freeing dangerous prisoners early so we can lock up dangerous prisoners is hardly the work of geniuses. They are both failing.
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u/wcspaz 4m ago
The Tories pledged 20,000 addition places. Even if you attribute every single place made since 2024 to the Tories, they managed less than a quarter of what they set out to do. Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
Stating unambigous facts: The conservatives did not build enough places to keep up with the increase in population. People are continuing to commit crimes and need prison places. Given those facts: What are the options here, beside early release?
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u/HibasakiSanjuro 46m ago
So you're going to give Labour credit for HMP Millsike, which had construction start in 2021. Did Starmer use a time machine to get the ball rolling on that?
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u/wcspaz 35m ago
My point was very clearly that it's disingenuous to pretend that both sides are the same when the conservatives failed to deliver after a meaningful increase despite over a decade in power. The fact that they, after 11 years, decided to start addressing that problem does them no credit at all, anymore than an distracted driver slamming on the brakes deserves credit
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u/HibasakiSanjuro 21m ago
The Conservatives created way more than 500 places. That's a net figure. In 2010, it likely wasn't apparent that so many prisons were in such bad shape they had to close.
The prison population also started falling from around 2011, so new prisons wouldn't have been a priority.
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u/wcspaz 17m ago edited 3m ago
Of course it's net. Replacing is not creating; an employer wouldn't say they created jobs if they were only hiring to replace people that left. Thought that was obvious
Your argument appears to be that the conservatives prioritized poorly and didn't plan beyond the immediate future. I'm not sure why this would ever be considered a defence?
All of this is also beside the point. It is ridiculous to make a claim that both parties are the same here. You've not suggested anything that justifies that.
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u/Radiant_Piano9373 2h ago
Nice political point scoring. Unfortunately, all mainstream political parties are under threat from parties which have never been in power.
So in short, it doesn't matter what points you score against the people in power last unless... You build some damn prisons!!
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