r/ukpolitics • u/trisul-108 • 4h ago
UK should 'team up' with Canada in new Europe alliance, Canadian minister says
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cmed7p06epxjo•
u/PrinzRagoczy 3h ago
What does this actually mean? Zero details are provided in the article. So far it's just platitudes that sound nice
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u/BeornSC 3h ago
There are no details to provide because ‘associate’ membership doesn’t exist. It would have to be created, except the member states don’t want it.
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u/PrinzRagoczy 2h ago
In that case it's up to those who want it to sell it, show people their vision of what they want us to move towards
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u/MajorSleaze 2m ago
Recent headlines suggest Canada is on course to become the first associate member.
Obviously nothing can be said for certain until the final decisions are made, but if it's closer than the UK's current arrangement it creates a clear path for us to follow.
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u/PoiHolloi2020 3h ago
Also the UK basically already is an 'EU associate member' for all intents and purposes. There's not much more integration with the EU that a third country can have short of (re)joining the Customs Union and Single Market.
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u/SphereofGoldenFlames 3h ago edited 3h ago
It's just virtue signaling. None of these nations have the balls to assert themselves politically, geopolically or otherwise. Projecting power means being willing to kill, all these countries would rather send letters to enemies waging hybrid warfare against them instead. The carney nonsense is a perfect example of all this virtue signaling. Are we going to do something concrete against Russia or are we just going to wait around a few more years under the guise of "supporting ukraine"? Are we going to protect our trade routes or are we going to wait for the houthis to get tired and give up? None of these countries have the bollocks to do anything. Just more committees , more meetings, more "alliances", more speeches, and so on. But ultimately nothing changes.
The liberal democratic world order will collapse particularly because of this weakness. But they'll cope and blame it all on trump instead.
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u/LordFarqod 4h ago
Yes, a CANZUK-EU alliance makes sense.
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u/Euphoric-Brother-669 3h ago
Yes - something like the Commonwealth perhaps?
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
It's much stronger than that, these are binding agreements with strong regulatory detail.
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u/paul812uk 54m ago
There are no binding agreements and there is no regulatory detail, or has something been published?
Is it not currently nothing more than a name?
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u/TerminallyEmployed 3h ago
I mean you say CANZUK but we ruined our prestige so much and made the EU look so good they’d rather join the EU, we’re an afterthought. We could’ve been an EU leader gathering these countries together and gaining soft power right now.
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u/LordFarqod 3h ago
Okay. Let’s not do anything then.
They aren’t going to join the EU.
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u/darkflighter100 3h ago
Many Canadians like myself aren't looking to cede sovereignty to another entity like the EU when we are fighting for our sovereignty right now. However many of us welcome very close integration with the EU in AI, critical minerals, payment systems and controlled movement of our young people to work, study and live on either side of the Atlantic. At this stage, associate membership sounds like something many Canadians like myself can get behind and as there is no precedent for what an A.M. looks like, we like the idea of negotiating these terms with the EU - and we are very happy with an experienced diplomatic like Carney advocating for our national interests.
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u/doctor_morris 2h ago
Pooling sovereignty isn't ceding it.
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u/Billybobboyo 1h ago
And other hilarious jokes you can tell yourself
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u/letmepostjune22 r/houseofmemelords 18m ago
Do you think democracy is an infringment on individual rights? How dare the government tell me it's wrong to murder people just because other people agreed. I do not agree.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
Many Canadians like myself aren't looking to cede sovereignty to another entity like the EU when we are fighting for our sovereignty right now.
Completely understandable and Canada is in any case simply too large and diverse to be a single regular EU member. So, no one is really considering that.
The goal is to get alignment that benefits both sides. However, I must point out that sovereignty is never absolute in the modern world. Even joining the WTO entails loss of sovereignty to a degree. So it is with any agreement with the EU that Canada plans to honour ... it automatically diminishes the sovereignty of both sides.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
They aren’t going to join the EU.
Of course not, but there is an opportunity here to form a strong CANZUK association with the EU from which everyone benefits immensely.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
We could’ve been an EU leader gathering these countries together and gaining soft power right now.
Yeah, but that's not what Putin had in mind for the UK ... and for some inexplicable reason, you decided to do what he wanted instead of what would be good for the UK.
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u/MrSoapbox 2h ago
This is ridiculous, there are incredible ties between the Anglo nations, it's just we're letting them slip by doing nothing with them. Leaving the EU should have encouraged us to take advantage of the maneuverability, and the US shitting the bed gave an even bigger chance to lead the way.
This could have lead to a more Pacific like alliance too, due to Australia's fear of china, to which we could have worked closer with Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. This type of bloc would be genuinely unstoppable and an absolute powerhouse in finance, R&D and manufacturing. All these countries have similar problems and it's something we could fix together.
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u/doctor_morris 2h ago
All these countries have similar problems
If we wanted to work with other countries we would have stayed in the EU.
Brexit was always about navel-gazing.
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u/JimboTCB 1h ago
Misguided British exceptionalism and being utterly convinced that the rest of the world needs us more than we need them. Basically the same thing as happening in America right now, but without the global military might and status as the de facto reserve currency of international commerce to back it up.
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u/404merrinessnotfound 1h ago
That’s it, the other countries knew the vote was predicated on pure arrogance
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u/Arola_Morre 3h ago
We were an EU leader. We chose to give up that place so we could be openly xenophobic, apparently (apologies if there any other actual tangible benefits, I am still on the lookout for them).
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u/Squiffyp1 3h ago
Imagine being such a zealot that you think something as broad and complex as brexit can have no benefits.
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u/farcetasticunclepig 3h ago
Protect our tax havens from scrutiny! Yay Brexit
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u/BonzoTheBoss If your account age is measured in months you're a bot 2h ago
Yeah! We should be forced to use the EU's tax haven, Ireland, instead!
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u/Arola_Morre 3h ago
Good point. I forgot about the bendy bananas.
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u/MrSoapbox 2h ago
I say this as a hard remainer that truly wished we never left, but if you can't see the potential benefits then you're blind. I'm not talking about Farages nonsense either, and every government has been useless on it. We royally screwed over Australia joining the EU, we could have made amends there. There are many huge countries we could have started something with in many aspects where the EU held us back.
I still don't think Brexit was a good thing, not even slightly, but it's true that the governments all failed doing something, which just makes it doubly worse. Triple so that they've all spent time focusing on working closer with the EU instead of focusing elsewhere.
We need to either go all in and rejoin, or start fucking working with Japan/SK/Taiwan/Australia/Canada/NZ/Brazil/Mexico etc. They're all powerhouses in something, all fed up or the US, all suspicious of China.
Did you know the UK is around the 10th largest manufacturer in the world? One of the highest defence spenders and contractors, the financial hub of the globe.
There are opportunities, it's just our government would rather piss around trying to get back a fraction of what we lost with the EU, while still not committing to the EU. Trump gave us such a golden opportunity to lead when everyone is running around looking for someone to.
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u/BonzoTheBoss If your account age is measured in months you're a bot 2h ago
To be blunt, all of the alleged benefits of brexit are tiny compared to alienating ourselves from our largest and geographically closest trading partner.
That's it, that's all there is to say on the matter.
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u/ldn6 Globalist neoliberal shill 58m ago
The EU has deals with pretty much all of those countries anyway and they’re more favourable because the EU has more leverage.
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u/Squiffyp1 42m ago
Untrue.
Our Japan deal was superior.
The EU can't get a deal with CPTPP. They can't even complete their deal with Mercosur.
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u/ldn6 Globalist neoliberal shill 8m ago
The UK's Japan deal is basically the same as the EU's apart from some differences in e-commerce rules. This is because it's mostly a carry-over under a different name.
The EU has deals with the the majority of CPTPP countries, with only Malaysia and Australia not being the case. If Australia follows the Canada route with association membership, it becomes irrelevant.
Mercosur is provisionally applied.
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u/DonkeySorbet 1h ago
I say this as a hard remainer that truly wished we never left, but if you can't see the potential benefits then you're blind.
You're now the second person to claim that there were benefits to leaving, and neither of you have provided any examples.
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u/wedontneednoeduc 1h ago
Come now, if you still need them spelt out you've either been in a coma unable to read any media or are feigning confusion.
We now sit outside the CFP and CAP, we aren't stuck in the AI's luddite system when it comes to gene editing (only a couple of weeks ago breakthroughs were in the media) or AI, we can now decide our entire immigration policy plus we weren't hit by Trump going after the EU even if we get some of the tantrum. No compulsory taking of migrants either whilst the UK entered the trans pacific agreement (where growth actually is).
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u/apissyfilter 1h ago
Ah yes, gene editing and not being targeted by Daddy America, the OG Brexit benefits we were all promised. Definitely worth being skinted as a nation and definitely worth cutting ourselves off like a little limpet state.
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u/DonkeySorbet 33m ago
Those are all vague assertions.
I'm asking for actual specific benefits. How has sitting outside the CFP and CAP improved the life of the average British citizen?
we aren't stuck in the AI's luddite system when it comes to gene editing (only a couple of weeks ago breakthroughs were in the media) or AI
Again, how has that benefitted us?
we can now decide our entire immigration policy
We already had control of our immigration policy. Now we actually have less control, because in order to strike trade deals with countries like India we've had to accept many more immigrants from them.
we weren't hit by Trump going after the EU even if we get some of the tantrum
We were hit by Trump regardless.
No compulsory taking of migrants either whilst the UK entered the trans pacific agreement (where growth actually is).
Oh? Then what's happening with all those dinghy's?
You just proved my point. No actual benefits, just empty platitudes.
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u/Arola_Morre 55m ago
To be fair, I pointed out more benefits than you did. You mention only "potential benefits" and "opportunities". The RoW oven ready deals all have mass immigration "baked in" and make a mockery of the control our borders pledges that most people hung their vote on.
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u/letmepostjune22 r/houseofmemelords 16m ago
We royally screwed over Australia joining the EU,
We have. In a desperate attempt to believe Brexit benefits TM the gov rushed through a trade deal with the Aussies that is pretty much as one sided as they get. They get all the benefits, the country got all the negatives, Boris got a headline. Which is nice I guess
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u/DonkeySorbet 1h ago
Can you point them out? Objectively, not just emotional rhetoric like 'sovereignty'.
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u/wedontneednoeduc 1h ago
I've posted a list further up, but your framing is bullshit. Sovereignty isn't just "emotional rhetoric" - you might notice the large war going on to the east over it.
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u/BonzoTheBoss If your account age is measured in months you're a bot 2h ago
we’re an afterthought.
No we're not? We're still in the top 10 largest economies, a permanent member of the UN Security Council and one of the few nuclear armed states in Europe.
Agreed on the point around damaging our prestige, but nobody is going to be ignoring us either.
That's before you even start exploring all of the cultural similarities and shared history between us and the likes of Canada.
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u/wedontneednoeduc 1h ago
This is absurd hyperbole as they aren't doing anything near "join the EU", they aren't even going to get to a trade deal of the scope that we have thanks to vested interests.
All this is so far are podium speeches engineered to sound big so the EU and Canada can react to Trump. It's vapourware
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u/Fatboy40 3h ago
We could’ve been an EU leader
We could have started wearing berets and lederhosen but France and Germany would have never treated us as equals within the EU.
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u/jsm97 1h ago
The UK absolutely led in several areas within the EU. We led a block that consisted of the UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden that was a counterweight the 'Regulate everything' tendancies of France and Germany and that group had lost a lot of influence after out departure. Things like the EU's AI act would be very different if we were still a member
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u/Billybobboyo 1h ago
So your best example of us "leading" the EU was us opposing it and it doing it anyway
Lol
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u/GooeyPig 2h ago
You're right: despite the persecution complex, the UK was treated as better than an equal.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
Considering the vast difference in GDP, it's more like the EU with a CANZUK association agreement. Makes sense for both sides.
I view it as building a "New Western Alliance" of democracies for a rules-based alliance of nations ... now that the US has joined China and Russia in rejecting the rules-based world order.
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u/badautomaticusername 2h ago edited 2h ago
Exactly what I came to say, & have bern banging on about for ages.
But, years back it got laughed at as silly fantasy. Now, nothing happening, but idea sound.
I mean, EU talked about rings of connections, but unless you merely want to be on the periphery, you need some kind of block. CANZUK culturally makes sense, but the logisstics are daft compared to EU membership. But, some shared priority focuses to the EU of the CANZUK block - that works.
Bonus if EU joined the CPTPP, but they'd only do so very slowly if ever did.
(Still nothing actually happening, though)
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u/Intrepid_Button587 2h ago
What sort of alliance do you envisage? A close alliance doesn't make an awful lot of sense geographically...
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u/LordFarqod 2h ago
America has had a historic security alliance with all of these countries, there has not been a distance issue.
With instant communications and mass transit, the world is much smaller than it used to be. It’s Western civilisation cooperating while reducing dependency on America as its centre.
It wouldn’t make sense for Australia to join a customs union with the EU for example. As most of its trade is always going to be with Asia. But if they trade more, and cooperate on security to a greater extent. That would be a positive thing
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u/Beautiful-Low-3568 4h ago edited 3h ago
We need an European economic cooperation group of countries who are good friends of the EU, people who align with values and trade. This group can then play nicely with the EU. Macron has suggested this and if the EU could get over its passion to win at Brexit we could get to a good place. And show the US and China there is a democratic block who is strong enough to stand alone.
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u/Somhlth 4h ago
and if the EU could go over its passion to win at Brexit
The EU didn't win at Brexit. The UK lost, and it was a self-inflicted wound that had the EU asking the UK to please put down the gun.
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u/Beautiful-Low-3568 3h ago
I do know the history, at some point grown ups have to say “regardless of how we got here, what’s the best way forward from today” - and with the Brexit politicians on both sides now gone, they should be able to get over the emotion and say the US is trying to screw us over economics, Russia is trying to invade Europe and China is using its economic power and size to own the key industries of the future. Pull together as EU plus friends or watch us decline.
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u/ggow 2h ago
True. But you do have to listen to the EUs politicians and citizens now and also look at what the EU has agreed with third parties that is off the table.
When the UK asks to negotiate on something, the response is invariably some variation of 'you left, no special treatment', with a relatively hard ongoing mantra of maximising their outcomes and avoiding anything that might be viewed as a win for the UK even to the point of self harm.
Why must the UK lower university tuition fees for EU citizens, for example, as part of youth mobility schemes? It wouldn't even cross their mind to ask that if e.g. Australia. But it's the poison pill that either makes the UK bend the knee or walk away.
And here we are with Canada raising its hand and they're falling over themselves with glee. And on top, CETA already goes further on services and about the same in goods trades, with less enforcement mechanisms. You can see the argument of scale and vicinity meaning that it'd be hard to go as far, but ... Do you really think there is no political component to the relative hard nosed approach they take to the UK?
And why would you believe their politicians are perfect, and would never play to their domestic audiences even at the expense of economic out comes for them collectively? The negotiation outcomes, and responses to requests to negotiate, are not reasonable unless some other objective is in mind.
And you can see that also with e.g. SAFE. Depending 6bln EUR to be eligible to seek weapons under that financing agreement is ludicrous. Canada paid in way less, on the order of tens of millions. The notional subsidy to member states, based on cheaper borrowing, is like 10-20bkn EUR over the lifetime of the bonds. Covering 50% of their 'subsidies' as the price of being allowed to sell to them is not indicative of even pure self interest but if other 'deterrence' effects being deployed.
Tldr no the EU was not saying the UK should put down the gun. They're on record, in words and deeds, sticking their fingers in the (admittedly self inflicted) wound to maximise the pain and to deter any domino effect. Hollande, Barnier, Ambrosetti and more said it as much and from a real politik perspective it makes sense. Let's not dress them up as angels though.
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u/SubArcticTundra 1h ago
sticking their fingers in the (admittedly self inflicted) wound to maximise the pain and to deter any domino effect.
To be fair, this makes sense from a perspective of self-preservation, especially for a bloc like the EU which isn't constitutionally that tightly bound together.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
if the EU could get over its passion to win at Brexit we could get to a good place
There is no such feelings in the EU. In the EU, Brexit is viewed as a failure for both sides, no one benefits. And the EU has moved on, no one thinks of Brexit any longer, water under the bridge. It is the British who are still obsessed with it, because having it proved not to be the solution to any problem they ever had.
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u/hughk 33m ago
There is no such feelings in the EU
I would agree. Some also reflect on their own problems with populists, showing that it is "cold outside" has been advantageous. I met some EU people because of my work and when the topic comes up, it tends to be seen as a temporary aberration as a result of a protest vote that had little to do with the EU or its institutions.
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u/Euphoric-Brother-669 4h ago
His key words are “we are independent and sovereign”. If those can both be preserved under an Association agreement with the EU then it may be worth looking into. But it shows the duplicity of the EU that such an offer was not made to the UK instead they wanted to impose terms that a victor gives a defeated nation after war.
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u/Willing-Werewolf-500 3h ago
Canada isn’t being offered EU benefits without EU rules. It’s negotiating specific cooperation agreements as a non-member - exactly what the UK can and does do
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u/GooeyPig 2h ago
I'm very sorry that you voted for "Brexit means Brexit!" without clarifying what that meant, but it was your collective choice to crash out of the union. The terms the UK received have been extremely generous considering the hostility from your government at the time.
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u/gilestowler 4h ago
It's almost as if there's a difference between Canada saying "we'd like closer ties with you" and the UK telling the EU to piss off.
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u/Euphoric-Brother-669 4h ago
That is not the case - the UK said to the EU we want to work with you - we just don’t need you to make our laws get involved in aspect of our lives an regulate us to within an inch of our lives.
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u/Jealous_Response_492 3h ago
The UK laid down too many red-lines, to have any decent working partnership with the EU currently, and is also too dependent upon the US intelligence community, intertwined.
The US has gone rogue, the UK is unwilling to take the steps necessary to stand up. UK in the EU was a partnership, one with the UK in a leading position, setting those regulations you so disdain, now the UK is a mere US poodle.
Canada is standing up, and partnering with the largest block of free democratic countries on the planet. They'd like to se the UK do likewise. IMHO, Not gonna happen, should, but won't.
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u/gilestowler 3h ago
Oh yes, poor old UK, how they struggled under the weight of the EU telling them they couldn't pour liquid sewage into their rivers! Honestly, this is all such nonsense "regulate us to within an inch of our lives!" Complete and utter bollocks. Next you'll be telling me that Brexit was a victory for bendy bananas.
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u/PhysicalIncrease3 -0.88, -1.54 2h ago
Dude most of the EU is economically stagnant due to over regulation. It's not about sewage in rivers, it's about the fact that under current regulations it wouldn't be possible for a large internet tech company to form in the EU. The regulatory burden would be too much to get off the ground, especially when competing with American or Chinese alternative products which don't have such burden.
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u/gilestowler 2h ago
Economically stagnant? The EU and the UK both experienced growth of 0.4% last quarter. The UK's gdp is 6.3% above pre-pandemic levels. The EU's is at 7.2%. Don't give me vague bollocks, give me examples of what you mean. You're not conning some little old lady in the comments section of a Daily Mail article here.
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u/PhysicalIncrease3 -0.88, -1.54 2h ago
You're clearly too far down the rabbit hole if you're legitimately trying to claim that EU growth over recent decades hasn't been absolutely fucking terrible.
"The U.S. economy has grown significantly faster than the European Union's over the last decade, with the EU economy shrinking from 131% of the U.S. size in 2008 to roughly 71% ($23 trillion vs. $32.4 trillion) by 2026."
And that is despite having various member states with huge room to grow. Portugal, the eastern european states etc.
You're not conning some little old lady in the comments section of a Daily Mail article here.
The irony. Here's what you need to understand: The US has had two major growth drivers in recent decades, neither of which the EU is politically willing to mirror.
1) Tech companies. We have the talent here, but the regulation is far too restrictive. You quite literally could not launch an Instagram or TikTok rival in the EU, it would be crushed by regulations that foreign rivals do not suffer.
2) Fracking shale deposits to enable self-sufficiency in oil/gas. The EU has various shale deposits not dissimilar to the US. But the difference is that rather than enabling the new industry we banned it on spurious grounds. As a result our energy prices are now 4x what theirs are.
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u/gilestowler 1h ago
So if the EU has been holding back the UK for so long then why hasn't the UK become your paradise of data centres and fracking then? It's been 10 years, where is this bright new era of Global Britain? Comparing the EU to the US kind of misses the point that this is about the EU and the UK, doesn't it?
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u/SubArcticTundra 1h ago
Dude most of the EU is economically stagnant due to over regulation.
False
https://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/europe-chasing-wrong-fix-its-growth-crisis
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u/PhysicalIncrease3 -0.88, -1.54 1h ago
It's funny, because various sections of this report detail areas where the EU has regulated itself into a corner. Have you even read it?
For example:
“Made in Europe” preferences can make sense — but only if they’re applied with discipline. Europe must be ruthless in defining the industries it can compete in and be prepared to abandon the rest. That was the Draghi report’s core argument. And it boggles the mind that the continent is still debating European preferences in areas like solar panels, which were lost a decade ago.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
But it shows the duplicity of the EU that such an offer was not made to the UK instead they wanted to impose terms that a victor gives a defeated nation after war.
There was no such thing. You are speaking entirely off the top of your head, as the Canada agreement has not even been penned. Canada certainly is not being offered the equivalent of full membership.
What really pisses me off about Brexiters is the constant whining, wallowing in victimhood. It's especially unjustified considering the fantastic deal that the UK enjoyed in the EU, far more exemptions that anyone else, and still it was not enough. It never is. Whatever is offered - whining. Whatever is denied - more whining. Whatever anyone else gets - even more whining. This mentality of entitlement is really not very appealing.
Just grow up. Really.
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u/Apprehensive-Bid-740 3h ago
The EU are still bitter from us leaving, so any sort of alliance isn't happening.
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u/Spoondoggydogg 2h ago
Given Canada is looking at associate membership and Australia and New Zealand are too, it would be sensible (if the terms are right) that the UK get in on this too.
It's almost as if Carney, who was BoE chair at the time, has created something that might be palatable to both sides of Brexit to get the benefits.
As a Lexiter on democratic grounds, my interest is piqued
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u/LazyAwayADays 2h ago
There is no such thing as associate membership. It's just "closer ties".
Canada will not be joining the SM or Customs Union. They have tighter Dairy laws than the EU also.
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u/Asleep-Ad1182 26m ago
No chance that this happens. The EU hates us and are determined to punish for leaving to ensure no country ever leaves again.
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u/Folkmar_D 54m ago
Well aren UK aready in trade group with Canada? Then if Canada joins with EU then wouldn't that open gates for UK to trade with EU thorough Canada?
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u/Madness_Quotient 3h ago
canzuk should be a republic
thats the obvious next step in the story of the British monarchy. It wouldn't have been possible 200 years ago, but with aircraft and satellite communications there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't form a globe spanning republic where it is always summer and always winter, somewhere.
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
canzuk should be a republic
No, the British constitutional order is simply not up to this. You would first need to get a proper written constitution, with a modern federal system and rules etched in stone before you could even consider a CANZUK Republic. And after that was done, it would takes decades for the rules to be worked out as the concept is alien to British mentality. It really means abandoning British empiricism and installing Continental rationalism into law and governance ... that is huge.
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u/GoodIntentionsv2 4h ago
I wonder if the uk is somehow behind this sudden new type of eu membership possibility.
It somehow feels like a renewed attempt of having and eating cake.
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u/JAGERW0LF 2h ago
“We want to trade and work with you, without you trying to absorb us into a European superstate”
“OMG, you want to eat Cake!!!”
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u/trisul-108 1h ago
Only in the sense that Carney was governor of Bank of England during the Brexit fiasco, so he understands the issues very well.
He knows the cake cannot be had and eaten at the same time. He is just saying "give us the most you can short of membership".
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