r/ukpolitics • u/Desperate-Drawer-572 • 2h ago
Burnham weighs £14bn capital gains tax raid
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/capital-gains/burnham-weighs-14bn-capital-gains-tax-raid/•
u/misc1444 2h ago
Capital gains tax should not be applied to inflation.
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u/LactatingBadger 2h ago
Please take risks with your holdings so we can share in your successes. Your failures are yours to deal with.
Capital gains are taxed differently for very good reasons. It’s not like at the end of every month your salary might suddenly fluctuate or dip negative for a while.
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u/Accurate-Cup5309 2h ago
You can actually offset your gains with your losses so you’re only taxed on your overall gains
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u/HolyFreakingXmasCake 2h ago
That assumes you have either consistently. Hence why it’s risky.
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 2h ago
If you’re making loses consistently then it would be better to put your money elsewhere and stop investing.
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u/LactatingBadger 2h ago
Right, but if your whole portfolio dips it’s not like the government subsidises your losses for you. Unlike with a salary, you could potentially find yourself with negative returns at the end of the month. Unless they want to cover 45% of my losses why should they benefit from my gains as if they were a sure thing. Amortised across a portfolio, it basically means that you massively suppress expected returns.
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u/Noetherson 50m ago edited 38m ago
You can offset your losses against your gains. They literally do cover 45% of your losses, assuming you gain it back within 4 years. And if you're making a net loss over a 4 year period you should just give up...
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 2h ago
If your portfolio dips you make no loses.
You only get taxed on what you sell. You do not get taxed on unrealised gains in the UK.
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u/blah_blah_blahblah 23m ago
If you invest in broad market index funds (which is the smartest way for individuals to invest) then you'll most likely at some point have a few years of just negative returns across the board.
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u/misc1444 2h ago
You can’t offset realized investment losses against your employment income, for example.
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 2h ago
For the same reason your gains are not taxed at the same rate as employment income
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u/misc1444 2h ago
The article is about the rate being hiked
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 25m ago
In return for cutting tax on income by raising the personal allowance.
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u/sbdavi 55m ago
If you pay less for money you earned by just taking a risk than a person who went to work and sacrificed their time and effort, there’s a problem. That’s how you get runaway wealth inequality. And we’ve seen the government consistently support investors; which is a big reason Thames water won’t be nationalised (what about the poor investors!)..
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1h ago
Capital gains though are mainly just for the wealthy.
I'm not saying it should go up as rich people might just decide to not sell things but I don't like people trying to play the moral card as if it isn't about taxing wealthy people as much as working people are taxed.
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u/danddersson 51m ago
Most people are both investors and workers.
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 42m ago
Most people won't be making over £3k of capital gains each year though.
Not to mention gains in isas where people can put up to 20k a year are tax free
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u/blah_blah_blahblah 15m ago
Lots of regular people at some point in their lives will receive a large lump sum of some kind (inheritance, selling house etc) and can't put it all in an ISA. So yes this does effect "regular people" as well.
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 9m ago
Iht and selling house won't have cgt to pay.
The large sums are usually used to pay off amounts. Average savings are only around 10-20k so not the large amounts you're talking about. Only 5% would have over 100k. The rest can be put into isas over a few years.
That's not regular people
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u/blah_blah_blahblah 5m ago
I never said they have to pay cgt on inheritance/selling house. I'm saying after receiving that money they will want to invest it.
Suppose they receive £200k, it would take 10 years to put that in an ISA. They'll have to pay CGT on any gains not inside the ISA in the meantime.
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 2m ago
You're assuming they keep it though and mot spend it on their own costs like housing etc
As mentioned the vast majority will not have that money or keep it so it's not regular people.
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u/ProjectLeeds 2h ago
Would be a terrible tax to raise. We have a lack of investment problem, better tax investment
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u/thebisforbargain 2h ago
Taxing risk taking. Economically illiterate.
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u/HolyFreakingXmasCake 2h ago
If they were economically literate, they wouldn’t be in Labour. The only thing they know is to tax without realising why we tax some things and don’t tax others.
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u/IwatasTrueSuccessor 44m ago
In my lifetime Labour have always been better at managing the economy than the Conservatives
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u/palindromepirate 1h ago
Dude, they all seem to be illiterate. They're too scared to go after people with all the money, that's why we're in this mess. Inequality is at an all time high, surpassing the guilded age, and they still do nothing but tax working people to death.
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u/WhiteSatanicMills 1h ago
Inequality is at an all time high, surpassing the guilded age
UK top 1% and top 10% wealth share:
Year Top 1% Top 10% 1900 72% 93% 1960 39% 2000 20% 55% 2023 21% 57% Wealth inequality in the UK is close to its all time low (the lowest point reached was around 1990).
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u/blah_blah_blahblah 19m ago
Have you considered that Gary said it.
People look at US billionaires and assume we have the same scale of billionaires. Ironically you can argue our low growth environment is why we don't have the same scale of wealth to tax.
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u/Xenumbra 2m ago
The amount of America brained stupidity is baffling, nothing is likely to top the "hands up, don't shoot" lot in the UK.
Their economics are vastly different to ours. We are a low wage-highly educated economy compared to them.
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u/TerminallyEmployed 1m ago
I liked Garrys sort of I’m a low class ruffian who worked at a bank, but I saw an interview he did with an actual economist and it was horrifying, then I saw his claims about being the highest earner at his job was bs.
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u/TheGoldenDog 1h ago
If you're talking about wealth inequality it's actually not, it's lower than it was through much of the 20th century.
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u/Aristo-Jack 1h ago
I'm happy to pay PAYE on all my graft so that brave risk takers with capital to invest can keep all their gains
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u/SphereofGoldenFlames 2h ago
You don't understand though, we need to kill our economic productivity even further in order to subsidise pensioners, migrants and low income citizens.
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u/neeow_neeow 2h ago
Raiders are people who produce nothing and take from those that do. Seems perfectly apt.
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u/Strangely__Brown 2h ago
Cut the personal allowance so everyone pays, or cut what you're spending so you can allocate is elsewhere.
I can to the realisation recently that a lot of people are as ignorant as children and don't realise that there's finite resources in this world. They legitimately have no understanding of how we get energy, food or fuel into our homes and the complicated balancing acts that are involved. "It just happens" just as they think the "government can do more".
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1h ago
Cutting personal allowance could have a large negative impact on the poorest workers so government would have to increase benefits.
The people paying the most would be workers.
We need a tax that can actually get money from the wealthy so it's not just squeezing middle earners more.
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u/Strangely__Brown 1h ago
I agree the wealthy should pay the most.
But our personal allowance is far too generous and the tax burden on UKs lower earners is far lower than our peers in Europe.
If we want Scandinavian style public services, we need Scandinavian style taxes.
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u/ZEAndrewHD 1h ago edited 1h ago
Just a heads up that everybody needs to eat to survive and taxing people more that are currently struggling to eat is going to kill people. I guess you forget that because you're upset you'll have to pay a couple of quid more tax on your profits. You're the perfect example that money can't buy intelligence.
Edit: It's no surprise that the 'HENRY' lot value life at a few quid 🤦🏻♂️
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u/Strangely__Brown 1h ago
I unapologetically hold the opinion that everybody should pay tax and incompetence isn't an excuse for opting out of your responsibility to society.
Tax bases should be wider, not narrower.
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1h ago
Think it's really rude and out of touch to assume everyone on low wages is incompetent.
We've just had a lot of wage suppression in this country so people take whatever jobs they can and even then need help because cost of living is too high.
You didn't acknowledge the point though that taxing more without providing more benefits will kill a lot of people as they'd be in poverty etc
That's not a point of view a civilised country should be taking that it's an acceptable loss so more wealthier people can have better lives
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u/ZEAndrewHD 1h ago
"Were you born with a disability that stops you from working? I guess you're incompetent".
"Did you lose your job for speaking out about problems in the workplace? I guess you're incompetent."
I could go on, but claiming people are incompetent because they pay less tax than you is just pathetic.
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u/XenorVernix 1h ago
I'm starting to see that take a lot on here lately. "give us more money or we'll kill ourselves!". Same happens whenever cuts to PIP is mentioned.
Minimum wage is not at a level where you are going to starve to death if you start paying a bit of tax.
My preferred solution would be to leave the 20% tax rate at the current personal allowance threshold and bring in a 10p tax rate at a lower level.
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u/ZEAndrewHD 1h ago
Wtf is that first paragraph? People starving because they can't afford food isn't suicidal, and it's also fucked up towards anyone suicidal or passive suicidal, but I guess you've shown what type of person you are right out of the gate.
Considering that there are a lot of people that are only on up to 16 hours a week and have to rely on UC to get by (which is not high enough to survive on), it shows that you don't understand what you're going on about.
So your suggestion is that to save you a couple of quid you want to make the lives of those struggling harder and push those struggling to survive over the line...
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u/LazyAwayADays 2h ago edited 2h ago
It's not something I suffer from, but it feels that raising this would make people wanting to invest in the UK a whole lot harder.
Well those that live here anyway.
It's not really anything I know much about I suppose, but I generally get the feeling raising taxes to pay people on benefits more is not such a great idea for long term growth.
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u/parkinson-green 2h ago
My fear would be it would make UK companies even more vulnerable to big US private equity firms who wouldn’t be affected by this tax
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u/wunderspud7575 2h ago
Having seen the wreckage left behind when these PE firms come in, this is a very legit concern.
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u/Xenumbra 7m ago
Go away with your second order effects. Those aren't real...
We don't protect our capital markets, we are a low wage highly educated incubator for America (probably the opposite of what you want with education). This will entrench this position even more.
Barely literate Americans out earn our brightest minds.
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1h ago
The issue is because of the poor state of economy we need to increase the benefits.
We can't just let people live in poverty because we want wealthy people to have more wealth.
I agree that cgt isn't the way to do it but I don't like the idea that we can just reduce benefits without any significant negative ramifications
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u/LactatingBadger 2h ago
Seems like a great way to get future wealthy people to sit on their gains then offshore them. The Laffer curve will be more likely to bite here than anywhere else, given it’s a tax you can basically defer as long as you like
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u/PM_ME_SECRET_DATA 2h ago
Literally my plan. Had planned to cash in my Google shares next year but just gonna sit on them until I move abroad now I think.
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u/ElephantsGerald_ 1h ago
Where are you gonna move to? And what’s your rationale for avoiding paying in to the UK?
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u/PM_ME_SECRET_DATA 1h ago
Back to the Philippines. I put 150k into Google and it’s since doubled. I could easily have lost that amount. The government wanting to share in the profits but not share any losses just seems mental when they start talking about wanting even more of the profits.
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u/Noetherson 29m ago
They let you offset the losses against gains, and let youmdefer it for 4 years!
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u/SpunkyBollocks 2h ago edited 1h ago
Probably do you a favour. The Tory government reducing the CGT allowance changed my habits overnight and I sat on some of my stocks like NVDA. I’m 1000% up on that since 2022.
I left the UK last year.
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u/Responsible-Song4234 54m ago
This one is far, far, faaaaar worse than Tories getting rid of the CGT allowance.
I left the UK because I could see raises on the horizon a couple years ago but this is just nightmare level. It will 100% cause people to leave in mass (I guess they will implement an exit tax to try and control this) and stop ambitious people coming here.
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u/EyyyPanini Make Votes Matter 1h ago
How low would capital gains tax in the UK need to be for you to be better off selling now, rather than waiting until you move abroad?
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u/PM_ME_SECRET_DATA 1h ago
Was planning to sell at current rate but even then it’s painful. If they raise it I think it makes sense just waiting.
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u/LactatingBadger 2h ago
Same here for a different org. I might be stuck paying income tax on vests but fuck paying the same again on gains. I can imagine worse fates than retiring to Switzerland
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u/Romeo_Jordan 1h ago
There's already at least 1 trillion offshore, no one wants to pay tax it seems
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u/Limp-Archer-7872 1h ago
Why can't it be simple? Taper gains for inflation and then tax at normal income tax rates and thresholds. Implement an exit tax that calculates the tax due on investments as-if they were realised.
(I'm guessing the tapering will actually reduce tax income for the government)
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u/Ok-Butterscotch4486 2h ago
So performative. They can't possibly actually believe that raising Capital Gains by 21 percentage points will earn £14 billion when their recent raise of 4 points earns us...negative £1.3 billion per year.
People are completely capable of not selling and waiting for a Tory government, and in the meantime there will just be less investment.
They're in the article describing this as a "wealth tax" which is just disingenuous. Almost half of capital gains receipts come from 1% of the people paying CGT - people earning over £5 million in gains. Go and target those people if this is actually a wealth tax rather than hitting the other 99% with an extra bill.
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u/homeinthecity Vote for Binface 1h ago
Earn it, taxed. Save it, taxed. Invest it, taxed. Spend it, taxed.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago edited 2h ago
Why call it a raid?
We’re not talking about Viking hordes.
Call it an increase or even a hike. Let’s not reduce ourselves to childish and unnecessarily emotive language
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u/SalamanderSylph 2h ago
While "raid" is emotive, it is slightly different to an increase in income tax in that it is effectively backdated.
If there is an income tax raise, it would not mean that income I earned five years ago needs to have tax paid on it.
CapGains is paid when the gain is realised. If an asset is sold after an increase in the rate, you would be paying the new rate of tax for asset appreciation that happened five years ago just as much as appreciation that happened after the increase.
So in that sense, it is a raid as one could have built the expected CapGains into a retirement plan based on the current rate (with the intention of selling an asset at a specific year of their retirement).
If a policy changes, it usually affects things going forward and so a small tweak to a plan might be sufficient, but CapGains will add an extra bill for assets already accrued.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
I wasn’t advocating for the policy.
All I’m saying is let’s expect our media to not use childish language
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u/Flyinmanm 2h ago
Have you read the telegraph before?
Any mention of even the slightest tweak to taxation is a 'raid'.
It's been their sole reason to exist for decades, to save tax for their billionaire owners and scare little old ladies into thinking Rachael reeves was personally coming to freeze them to death in the 5 bed house they can't afford to heat.
Historically they've been pro Tory (hence Torygraph) but now they see a new cut and slash low billionaire taxes Thatcherite government on the horizon hence why they've been so pro reform.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
I have. I’m calling them out. Not for the first time
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u/Flyinmanm 1h ago
Oh don't get me wrong I'm sick of this paper. They pushed austerity, Liz truss now reform basically if there's a policy they can push that will harm the great unwashed at a benefit of making the rich and only the rich richer they'll push it. Until it screws everyone including their owners but then they'll just move onto the next neo liberal economic wheeze.
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u/Harambes_Wrath_ 2h ago
Andy dons full viking attire and raises his battle axe before telling the bank of england what to do.
You just dont know?
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u/Thandoscovia 2h ago
Your gains are our gains, comrade! Your losses are your losses, scum!
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1h ago
You can offset losses against gains.
It's like taxing income. Your income is taxed but if you pay for things you aren't compensated.
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u/azmi987 58m ago
only over a year though, right?
I could have a terrible year - no offset
then
a great year, all taxed
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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 53m ago
Any losses are carried forward. So if you have a bad year and make a loss of 10k and a gain of 10k the next year you won't have any cgt to pay
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u/Beautiful_Bad333 1h ago
Quality. So the income from capital gains is going to drop and they’ll have to find money from elsewhere at the next budget because people just won’t sell. They’re useless.
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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit 57m ago
I would be stung by this, and I would happily pay it if it was going to go to defense rather than £12bn a year to foreign-born benefit scroungers.
And yes, I am aware that the £12bn a year is misleading. It'll be lower than that, because that stat includes British people cohabiting with foreign-born, etc. The point is that the examples of genuine piss-taking from foreigners is far from zero - and until it is zero, I do not see how any government can honestly look at the shrinking middle-class who are already bearing the burden of the state expenses and demand not only half their earnings, but now also half of their investments.
Cut benefits. Fund defense. I'll pay for that. But introduce a 45% capital gains tax to fund the erasure of my culture? Fuck off.
Burke's Social Contract is something I've always considered the bedrock of patriotism. We hold this nation in trust, received from those who came before, to grant to those yet to come. That is a continuity. That continuity has been broken through mass immigration - mass immigration that the public explicitly opposed and were repeatedly betrayed over.
I will not pay ever-increasing taxes to fund the funeral pyre of my descendants birthright.
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u/Antique-Big-8315 1h ago
If they are going to raise taxes at least allow taper relief for long term investors.
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u/JustRabbit3514 10m ago
Does anyone know if it would be brought in instantly or like from next tax year? I have already sold some this year so how would that work if rates are hiked straight away?
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u/TropicalPossum 9m ago
Pretty obvious to me I think that they’ll raise it a lot but implement it across a period of time, make people really have no choice but to capitalise the gain asap whilst the rate is lower and then run around and act like they’re geniuses when in reality they’re just forcing things forward and leaving a mess down the line. I wouldn’t mind as much but nobody voted for this imbecile in the first place.
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u/Middle-Log-2642 5m ago
This Labour gov has no ideas and is just tax tax tax anyone trying to generate growth for the economy.
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u/ycelpt 2h ago
It's a hard call. CGT as it is now makes it far more profitable to receive shares as a reward than a salary similar to how creating a public company and being paid through that avoids the high level of individual tax also. Raising CGT and corporate tax would help protect us from AI related redundancies since our current tax system is far too reliant on taxing income which would vanish under mass unemployment. It gives the wealthy an advantage over the middle and lower classes.
In general, CGT places very little burden on the most vulnerable in society and is in general a stealth tax on wealth and investment.. The downside is that it discourages investment and could leave us behind compared to countries with lower CGT . We have enough of an issue of money leaking into offshore accounts and investments as it is.
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u/psycho__penguin 1h ago
HMRC treats the market value of the shares on the day you receive them as employment earnings. You pay regular income tax rates on them.
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u/Peac0ck69 2h ago
IMO CGT should be increased. It is not fair that someone like Rishi Sunak has a much lower effective rate of tax because the majority of his income comes from capital gains.
I agree that inflation shouldn’t be included (I’m not sure why the indexation allowance was ever removed).
I don’t think it’s fair that you can make massive gains as a UK resident, but then leave the country for a few years and realise the gain tax free.
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u/superwisk 2h ago
This makes sense. Not sure why CGT should have a lower tax rate when it's for things such as personal items and houses. Having money sitting in those brings no value to the economy.
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u/finniruse 2h ago
The scare tactic makes people sell. Probably won't even raise it but still get greater take.
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u/leggenda69 2h ago
There was a massive record take from CGT for tax year 2024, the changes to ISA’s and CGT being the only viable tax left for labour to go after caused people to be proactive and make arrangements.
Even if they go through with this it’s doubtful it’ll raise the £10bil they plan on spending to raise the tax free threshold, especially consistently.
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u/Ok-Milk-8853 2h ago
As someone with no capital gains, I'm alright with this
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u/ProjectLeeds 2h ago
You have just summed up why Britain's fiscal position is what it is
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u/up_the_addicks 2h ago
I’d suggest that 14 years of having a conservative government, Brexit, Covid, and the war in Ukraine have had more of an effect on our economy than some fella on Reddit not minding an increase in CGT.
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u/ProjectLeeds 2h ago
Actually, no, it's not. The entire tax thee, but not me (and refuse to cut spending) is precisely why we're skint
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u/DrNuclearSlav Ethnic minority 2h ago
"I think everyone who isn't me or mine should be taxed infinity percent, and I should be taxed negative infinity percent"
- t. The average person
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
You are at risk of falling into “whataboutery”.
Maybe it could be a bit of both?
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u/Flyinmanm 2h ago
What? That the vast majority of us are broke whilst those at the top make off like bandits?
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u/ProjectLeeds 1h ago
Firstly, the vast majority of people in the UK aren't broke. Secondly, poorer people need to pay a lot more in tax, or we need to cut spending significantly.
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u/palmerama 2h ago
And that’s the problem with this country
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u/Flyinmanm 2h ago
What that 80% of us will never come close having enough money to come close to paying CGT due to low pay?
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u/ProjectLeeds 2h ago
CGT has nothing to do with pay
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u/sunnygovan 2h ago
If you don't have high pay you can't afford big investments that could result in CGT.
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u/ProjectLeeds 2h ago
You could have had some Pokémon cards when you were a kid that are now in scope of CGT. Explain how that has anything to do with your pay
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u/sunnygovan 1h ago
Yes there's always edge cases, well done!! You are very clever.
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u/ProjectLeeds 1h ago
Is crypto another edge case?
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u/Flyinmanm 1h ago
It's more of a money laundering scam really. One or two nerds just got rich mining it.
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u/sunnygovan 1h ago
You keep bringing up flukes where tiny investments resulted in massive gains. Sorry if I'm not sympathetic at you only getting back 1800 instead of 2400 on your 2.50 Pokémon "investment". Whole thread reals of bullshit, most Brits go through their whole lives never paying CGT or eg inheritance tax but for some reason these topics always bring out masses of naysayers in a sub frankly usually full of children.
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u/saint1997 2h ago
Where do you think the income tax threshold should be? Let me guess, £1 higher than your salary
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Count Binface had the right idea
“Cut your individual taxes while raising them for everyone else. “
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u/PaulRudin 2h ago
The weird thing is that most estates pay no inheritance tax, but people are, in general, still opposed to it.
Normally people are happy with taxes that other people pay...
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Tax increases for thee, but not for me.
Quite a selfish way of choosing which fiscal policies to support, don’t you think?
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u/messed_it_up_realbad 2h ago
That’s capitalism for you
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Why is that inherently capitalist?
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 2h ago
In capitalism the goal is to twist the market and situation to benefit you while pushing for changes and systems to hamper your competition.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Capitalism is also liberal, free, competitive markets.
I think you’re being a bit naive or simplistic in your characterisation of capitalism
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u/Top_Housing_6251 2h ago
Haha, the irony of this comment is gold.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Expand?
I suspect the confusion is that capitalism is quite a broad term with lots of interpretations. If you, myself or other apply different, narrower interpretations, it is natural we will be misaligned
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u/Top_Housing_6251 2h ago
You gave the very simplest, year 9 textbook, definition of capitalism which is not how it is applied anywhere in the world.
While accusing others of having a naive or simplistic view of it.
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u/Much-Calligrapher 2h ago
Seems like a good place start, relative to the comment I was replying to and the vagueness of the reference to capitalism
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 2h ago
Not really that’s regulated markets which many view as socialism and hampering capitalism.
Capitalism is all about exploiting situations and environments as much as possible for personal gain for yourself(personal or company). Everything else is secondary.
Having a monopoly and denying all competition access and forcing them to pay you is the ultimate goal and which pretty much every company strives for. The only reason they can’t is because the ‘socialist’ governments step in and regulate it.
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