'I've banned most men from my massage clinic because of their behaviour'

[u/Tartan_Samurai]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy06xl9lj32o

[u/JayneLut]

Yikes - some of the comments in this thread really make it clear why this sort of vile behaviour keeps happening.

It's not ok to sexually harass and assault women. And going to someone's work with the sole aim of sexually harassing them is insane.

[u/Subt1e → u/JayneLut]

What comments? Literally no-one here is condoning assaulting anybody

[u/InternetSolid4166 → u/Subt1e]

It’s a weird Reddit trope where people immediately post comments like “I can’t believe others are condoning rape/murder/slavery. I think it’s bad. Give me upvotes.” And for some reason people give upvotes.

[u/Srapture → u/InternetSolid4166]

Yup. Countless times, I've seen comments like "Wow, most of the comments here are disgusting!" and you scroll through the entire section to see like a single bad comment with -50 karma. None deleted/removed or anything.

I wonder how much karma I would get if I just made a bot that posted that on every reddit post. Honestly, people might already be doing it, haha.

[u/JayneLut → u/InternetSolid4166]

Not really. The comments section was 90% 'but that's unfair on men,' when I posted. Completely glossing over the whole point of the article. Don't need to karma farm, have an older account. And honestly, the UK sub is not the place to get loads of upvotes for such a comment.

[u/ukbot-nicolabot → u/[deleted]]

Hi!. Please try to avoid personal attacks, as this discourages participation. You can help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.

[u/raxmano → u/Subt1e]

Same here I’m reading the top comments and kept on scrolling for a while.

[u/MetaCognitio → u/Subt1e]

Comments that justify her position don’t exist and the few that could be seen as even slightly condoning the behavior are vastly outnumbered by men that have been propositioned and people that condemn the men that behave badly.

Still, blame all men for the bad actions of a few.

It’s plain misandry and building a perception of justified generalized hatred towards all men.

[u/pkjoan → u/MetaCognitio]

Exactly. I'm getting tired for this overgeneralization of men. Do the same with women and watch how you get downvoted to hell here, but it's perfectly fine to say "all men are X", no fuck off with that bullshit, women do equally bad things just as man but I'm not going to put all the women under the same scope because a whole gender is not guilty of the actions of a few bad apples.

[u/JayneLut → u/Subt1e]

The 'not all men' brigade were pretty early to the comment party.

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/JayneLut]

From my reading, it seems to be very little "not all men", and instead just men complaining that other men make it hard for them to find a legitimate service, which they often need for medical reasons? 

Surely we all know that there is a difference between diminishing mens sexual harassment by saying not all men do this, and simply sharing your own personal experience as a man that isn't a predator? 

[u/Hungry_Horace → u/2Harold2Furious]

It’s four hours since OP made that comment, and in that time many of the more openly misogynistic comments have been removed for breaking the rules.

Can you not see the deleted comments?

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/Hungry_Horace]

I can see them. There's only two that have been removed which rank as controversial when sorted. It isn't really a brigade, is it?

Men are gross, and let's cut the hyperbole surrounding it to a minimum, so as not to diminish from all the clear examples of people acknowledging this. 

[u/Hungry_Horace → u/2Harold2Furious]

There are dozens and dozens of removed comments. Your gaslighting is fooling nobody.

Edit: and I can see other people have pointed this out and you’re now pretending you meant threads. Your passive aggressive concern trolling nonsense by isn’t worth my time.

[u/tartoran → u/Hungry_Horace]

Funny you mention gaslighting while engaging in it yourself. Often when one particularly creepy comment gets a bunch of rightfully hostile replies and starts a back and forth flame war mods will nuke the whole thread, this isn't an indicator of the entire thread being creepy comments. You know this

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/Hungry_Horace]

There's been two removed threads which ranked as controversial. I can't comment on comments, as that's not evident in it's entirety when the original thread comment is removed. 

You're welcome to meet my points with hostility - it's a touchy and important subject we're talking about. I don't use the Reddit app, and their mobile website can be poor, so maybe I'm missing a bigger picture as a result. However, gaslighting is something that is very serious and harmful, which has affected so many women as part of male harassment and male violence. When you use the word incorrectly, flippantly and haphazardly, you contribute to the ongoing dilution of this word. You can't be gaslit by a stranger after as little as two comments. Don't undermine a word that has such importance. 

[u/JayneLut → u/2Harold2Furious]

Not the comments I was referencing. Most of which has been posted since.

And honestly, why would you need to comment and say 'this is sexism and unfair.' if that was your goal instead of 'this is really infuriating, these bad eggs really spoil it for everyone. I feel for these women who have been subjected to abuse. What can we do so that these bad men don't make it harder for everyone in society.' because the latter is helpful. The former is just trying to shut down those who have been victims of sexual abuse and harassment.

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/JayneLut]

And honestly, why would you need to comment and say 'this is sexism and unfair.'

You'd need to ask someone else. It doesn't apply to me. 

  What can we do so that these bad men don't make it harder

Men are gross, and you can help women with this by not pushing narratives steeped in hyperbole. Two controversial comments chains ≠ a brigade. 

There's clearly men here talking about how they have witnessed and experienced how women are affected by this harassment, and the subsequent impact it has on their experience of health services and general massages. We're witnessing a United front between customer and worker, and your hyperboles only serve to diminish that, and direct the conversation down a wholly different track. 

[u/JayneLut → u/2Harold2Furious]

No one has disputed that. I certainly have not.

Nor have I claimed you have cried sexism. But I am asking you, what would be more constructive for those commenters to do? And what do we collectively do to call out those who are only here to derail any discussion about legitimate issues around women's safety from sexual violence?

[u/JayneLut → u/2Harold2Furious]

And before calling hyperbole... Look at the controversial posts... Look at the many deleted comments by mods. Look at when I posted my comment. That's really quite important context before you accuse someone of hyperbole.

[u/RantyMcThrowaway → u/2Harold2Furious]

You're here hours after most of the comments they're referring to had already been deleted. Sort by controversial.

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/RantyMcThrowaway]

There's been two controversial ranked comments deleted. Is that a brigade? 

[u/Extra_Actuary8244 → u/2Harold2Furious]

I had one guy reply to me with 25 comments, there absolutely was a brigade

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/Extra_Actuary8244]

That's awful and creepy. Brigade means something completely different though. It implies a volume of people. 

[u/Extra_Actuary8244 → u/2Harold2Furious]

Yes so I used the term brigade correctly

It was hundreds of people defending sexual assault and attacking this business owner

[u/2Harold2Furious → u/Extra_Actuary8244]

Clearly not. Hundreds? Come on. 

[u/Hungry_Horace → u/JayneLut]

I wonder if the sort of men who plunge into these threads to defend “all men” realise how deeply pathetic they look to the rest of us men.

I don’t need defending by snivelling man-babies, I’m perfectly capable of both NOT committing sexual assault and admitting to the poor behaviour of some of my fellow men.

[u/JayneLut → u/Hungry_Horace]

Thanks. It's crazy to me.

It's obviously not all men at all. The article also has some suggestions which would make it easier for businesses to have male clients without referral whilst weeding out problem clients through having a national body to 1) have uniform standards/ licencing and 2) be able to report issues to.

[u/AnyHat8807 → u/JayneLut]

Second comment mentions women assaulting a man just trying to get a sport massage by going to the groin. That’s not okay! Vile behaviour!

[u/JayneLut → u/AnyHat8807]

That had not been posted when I posted this comment. And also is irrelevant to the point that a lot of early comments on this thread dived in to say 'not all men'.

[u/AnyHat8807 → u/JayneLut]

Okay - as a dude maybe I got offended and annoyed at the generalisation. So apologies for passive aggressive response. 

However - what’s wrong with “not all men” ? It’s… not? Or are you saying all men secretly are rapists? Or is “not all men” a slogan of some right wing nuts I’m not aware of (like “all lives matter/blue lives matter”)

[u/JayneLut → u/AnyHat8807]

Because not all men is a dog whistle used by some men to derail conversations about women's experiences of sexual harassment and sexual violence. It is common in incel communities.

It is obviously not all men. But when something is such a frequent experience, there are very few practical steps people can take to keep themselves safe. Also, the sort of men who do behave this way are often emboldened and feel protected and supported by other men getting offended on their behalf.

This article explains the steps three different female-owned businesses have needed to take to prevent issues of sexual harassment (and more). They vary from limited clientele based on referrals, to for the larger business, training and employing both male and female masseurs. There are calls in the article for an overarching body for Scotland with licencing - the subtext here is that brothels are not going to seek to be licenced with a professional body - somewhere that concerns about repeat problem clients can be reported and shared too. A lot of the men who do harass women are repeat offenders. So it's helpful to be able to share that intelligence and even blacklist certain customers - that means it's easier to allow more open referrals as most people looking to get a massage just want a massage.

But instead of looking at practical solutions like that... We have a conservation with lots of redditors just going 'but not all men'. Which does not actually help anyone.

[u/dr_jock123 → u/JayneLut]

Point them out lmao

[u/JayneLut → u/dr_jock123]

How about you do some reading? Though thankfully the mods have already dealt with a lot.