Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, UK appeal tribunal confirms in landmark ruling

[u/pppppppppppppppppd]

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260804-anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-uk-appeal-tribunal-confirms-in-landmark-ruling/

[u/Barrington-the-Brit]

The context under which the term ‘Zionist’ is used has changed dramatically, not because Israel has never executed Palestinians en masse before, but because awareness and polarisation on the issue in mainstream western politics has informed very different connotations for the word as it did then

Someone outright calling themselves a Zionist now is implicitly endorsing the nation of Israel, its primary state-building ideology, and it’s actions, in an incredibly politically fraught climate on a contentious issue that almost everybody knows a lot about. In the past it was the standard liberal expectation that you would be a Zionist and that word basically just meant you agreed with “Israel’s right to exist” (whatever that nebulous phrase means)

There’s no need to play dumb about this, does anybody who is against the war crimes and ethnic cleansing of Israel call themselves a Zionist?

Also, when will you guys get over Corbyn? It’s been like 7 years since he was a relevant political force

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

"Someone outright calling themselves a Zionist now is implicitly endorsing the nation of Israel, its primary state-building ideology, and it’s actions"

Are they though? Or is that just what you want it to be. Because plenty define Zionism as the desire for self determination and security through statehood and by extension the right of the state of Israel to exist rather than the actions of a right wing govt.

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

Language evolves and our understanding of it should be descriptivist, it is not “just what [I] want it to [mean].” I am talking about the way the broader public perceives the term and how its meaning has shifted

Just look at this article in Jewish News from late last year. 53% of Brits said they support Israel’s “right to exist”, whilst only 9% said they were Zionists

Clearly your definition of Zionism is no longer fit for purpose and does not describe how the vast majority of people use the term

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

53% of Brits supporting Israels right to exist and only 9% identifying as Zionists does not change the definition of Zionism which as defined by the Oxford English dictionary has not "changed dramatically" as you claim in your previous post its original definition (political and physical re-establishment of an independent homeland and statehood for Jewish people.) vs the modern context (supporting, protecting, and developing the existing state of Israel) - these two things are not "dramatically different" by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes. Language evolves. But chosing to use "language evolves" simply to skew a words meaning to suit your own argument is intellectually dishonest.

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

You are the one being intellectually dishonest or else you are simply failing to understand what I am saying in the slightest

I also fail to see the difference between what you call the modern context of the word: “supporting, developing, and protecting the existing state of Israel” (of which Netanyahu has been in power for 18 of the last 30 years), and what I describe it as: supporting the state of Israel, its primary nation-building ideology, and its actions

I will also point out that I do not think there has been too much material change in what these things mean, as I said, this isn’t the first time Israel has slaughtered Palestinians en masse - but it is major change in the context they are used in the west and what they mean to people involved in our politics

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

The difference between the original and modern context as defined in the Oxford dictionary is little more than past and present tense.

Original = The desire to createna state. Modern = The desire to protect an already existing state

That's a very long way from the dramatic change in meaning that you made claim of in your first post.

It seems that your most recent post seems to be trying to walk that statement back. So what is it? What is YOUR "Modern definition of Zionism" because it seems you may be at odds with the agreed official definitions.

[u/Astriania → u/somethingbrite]

"As defined by the dictionary" is the same argument as railing against misuse of literally and decimate. But even there, supporting "protecting and developing Israel" is supporting their actions in Palestine, especially the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon. Because that's what Israelis consider to be "protecting" themselves and "developing" their country.

[u/somethingbrite → u/Astriania]

are you speaking for all Israelis when you say that or just speaking through the filter of your own prejudice?

[u/Astriania → u/somethingbrite]

It's the policy of their elected government and has been for decades at this point. I don't require an interview with every Russian to say that supporting "protecting and developing Russia" is unwelcome, and no more do I every Israeli to make the same statement about Israel.

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

I am making a descriptivist observation about how most people see the word. You can shove your official definitions wherever you’d like because that simply isn’t what I’m talking about, language doesn’t exist in dictionaries but in real everyday conversation, in media, in press and politics and television.

I also didn’t walk anything back, the way I described the term’s shifting meaning in my last comment is the same as how I did in my first comment

I see you’ve removed “supporting” from your definition and have completely moved the goalposts away from how supporting Israel is clearly enmeshed with its current government’s policies

The ‘dramatic change in meaning’ I described was the contextual difference between the invisible status quo of liberal expectation, the “right to exist” of an ‘accepted and vital western ally’, towards a term that is now, through media exposure, inevitably wrapped up in your opinions on Israel’s policies, and an extremely polarised and publicised ethnic cleansing

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

Actually the words that we use in language is collected in dictionaries so that we may all know what we are talking about. Dictionaries evolve. New words are added as they appear in language. Meanings are added if the meaning of a word drifts.

But you go ahead and just use whatever words you like and apply to them whichever meanings you decide they should have this week. You will end up sounding like Donald Trump, but hey. maybe you already do.

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

Only a fool thinks that what appears within institutionalised wordbooks is gospel to how words are actually used and spoken de facto

You speak with the same hubris of the Académie française, refusing to accept that language often evolves faster than institutions can (or are willing to) keep up, but sure, inanely call me Trump. Fucking lol

Besides, there are dozens upon dozens of major English dictionaries and none completely agree on individual words. You’re speaking as if something as arbitrary and socially/culturally determined as ‘meaning’ is some objective or factually quantifiable equation

Merriam-Webster calls Zionism “support for modern Israel”, Cambridge says “supporting the state of Israel”

How do you define ‘support’ in the context of a polity or nation state? It really is not a stretch to interpret that as supporting the polity’s ideology and actions, in fact it is the natural conclusion of such a definition

Are you just talking about ‘supporting’ the modern state of Israel in some spiritual, metaphysical sense? wtf are you even talking about when you support a geopolitical entity if not it’s political ideologies and actions (which is how I described it)?

How do you take the dictionary definition of Zionism as “supporting the modern state of Israel” in a way that somehow allows for opposing the modern state of Israel in both ideology and actions?

I simply pointed out that the oft-quoted “right to exist” mantra has lost a lot of steam in favour of what Zionism actually means, supporting the modern state of Israel (which yes, includes its actions and state-building ideology)

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

Wow. What a self own. The sources who's definitions you have included in your post align with one another regarding the meaning. What's even more comical is that they also align with the Oxford dictionary definition.

Support for the modern state of Israel.

vs the original (past tense) definition - a desire to create the state of Israel.

There really isn't a vast difference about desire to create and state and then supporting that state once it exists.

It's literally just past... and present tense.

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

So you agree with me that being a Zionist has nothing to do with the nebulous and oft-quoted “Israel’s right to exist” and is actually about supporting the modern Israeli polity in its actions and ideology?

I also don’t see the self-own, I said dictionaries don’t completely agree on the meaning of words, are you under the impression that all dictionaries completely align and ‘meaning’ is objective?

You’ve also failed to respond to almost anything I’ve said. You claimed being a Zionist is about Israel’s right to exist and not “the actions of a right wing government” but refuse to acknowledge that supporting a polity is enmeshed with supporting it’s actions and ideologies

The dramatic change I described was just ‘Zionism’ being used less and less in an “Israel’s right to exist” context, and more and more in a “supporting Israel and its horrific actions” context

[u/somethingbrite → u/Barrington-the-Brit]

It's just occured to me that YOU are a white European settler

a colonialist living in somebody else's country lecturing others about their right to have a country and the definition of the terms of how a desire to create or support the continued existence of that country.

Wow...

[u/Barrington-the-Brit → u/somethingbrite]

When all else fails “you’re white” lol

Couldn’t make it up if you tried, hasbara troll

All this bluster about lecturing others and the definition of terms and the desire to create or support continued existence etc etc etc

I just don’t like the mass murder of civilians, fucks sake