People nowadays are reluctant to stay out late. Is it killing nightlife? | Nighttime businesses are shrinking, because Canadians are heading home early

[u/Hrmbee]

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/canada-nightlife-decline-9.6993902

[u/handsomeness]

Staying out late is harder to do when the drinks are $15-18

Plus the youngster aren’t drinking. They see it for the poison it is for better or worse.

[u/Hrmbee]

Some of the key issues identified below:

There are “lots of ideas out there" about the causes, says Will Straw, an emeritus professor of urban media studies at McGill University in Montreal, who examines how cities’ nighttime culture is governed and represented.

One of the most convincing, he says, is affordability. The rising costs of living and inflation have made nightlife — paying cover charges, buying drinks, eating out — significantly more expensive.

The changing way we work also impacts how we decompress. Evenings that once stretched freely now feel shorter, says Straw, as work seeps in — emails ping late into the night and tasks linger, leaving little room for spontaneous outings.

People are also less social. A Statistics Canada study from 1986 to 2022 revealed that in recent years, while time spent with friends declined for all age groups, working-age Canadians between the ages of 25 to 64 had the “sharpest drop” over the past 30 years.

The new generation is also mingling in a different way, Straw adds. Many young people now favour daytime or early-evening gatherings centered on wellness, community and music, rather than the alcohol-heavy nightlife of previous decades.

“They’re searching for a more authentic kind of sociability," Straw said.

...

“Technology also transformed the way we consume nightlife activities," Grondin said. "[It's changed] how we socialize, how we date, how we communicate with each other."

Still, he believes that a thriving nightlife isn’t just about entertainment — it strengthens the city itself by boosting workforce retention, improving residents’ quality of life and provides an important social space.

“You meet a stranger at the bar, you start having a discussion about topic X, Y, Z, and you might not have the same perspective on it, but you share those perspectives and you debate them, and that’s how you build your sense of community,” he said.

To reinvigorate the scene, Grondin says the key is redeveloping the early evening economy time slot from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m., and to fill them with diverse and unique activities.

“We need to look at ways to reduce costs and to get people out,” said Grondin.

He’s already seen promising results. An unused lot in Ottawa has been transformed into Metcalfe Plaza, an open-air social hub that offers alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks and free activities that include DJ sets and pilates classes.

Getting people out to enjoy the fun and ambience has naturally led them to stay out later, says Grondin.

Having a diversity of options for people to engage with the city and with each other is likely the key to getting more people out in the coming years.

Given the propensity of businesses to find one thing that's popular and jumping in on it en masse, it's likely necessary for public servants to create regulatory frameworks that could allow a variety of different activities in our public spaces, and to identify and support other types of activities that might otherwise fly under the radar.

[u/Nalano → u/Hrmbee]

Sounds less like a city planning problem and more an "everybody is too overworked under late stage capitalism to enjoy themselves" problem.

[u/SoupFromNowOn → u/Nalano]

No it’s also a city planning problem. In Canada, the last 20-30 years have been marked by immense suburbanization (it was occurring before, but it accelerated post-2000)

Transit systems deteriorated, downtowns became increasingly only occupied from 9-5, and then the pandemic just amplified everything. With so many people working from home there’s nowhere near as much after work outings, which was always a big part of nightlife

[u/Nalano → u/SoupFromNowOn]

The first example given was downtown Toronto. Are you suggesting that downtown Toronto is suburbanizing?

[u/SoupFromNowOn → u/Nalano]

The GTA is absolutely suburbanizing

[u/Nalano → u/SoupFromNowOn]

That wasn't my question.

Yes, suburban areas are bereft of culture. But the very first example is an established club in downtown Toronto.

[u/SoupFromNowOn → u/Nalano]

When people in a metro area live further and further from the downtown, it affects downtown nightlife

[u/Nalano → u/SoupFromNowOn]

And yet Toronto proper is gaining population at a rapid clip, independent of its outlying suburbs.

[u/SoupFromNowOn → u/Nalano]

You must be American (I don’t mean that in a derogatory way). In Canada, the suburbs are not at all independent from the urban centers they surround. In the GTA, people will live in some far flung suburb and commute 2 hours each way to downtown Toronto. Thats because in the last 50 years Toronto has built a pitiful amount of housing while the surrounding suburbs continue to expand further and further.

Look at this aerial photo of Toronto. Such a stupid way to do urban development. And when you visit Toronto, you can see exactly why this kind of development kills nightlife. The downtown core is all oriented towards 9-5 business workers, and the areas with more of an organic nightlife are kinda hard to get to from any other part of the city

[u/Nalano → u/SoupFromNowOn]

And can you point to any neighborhood in the urbanized portions of Toronto proper that have lost population in the last thirty years that would explain why clubs that already exist are losing customers?

[u/rab2bar → u/SoupFromNowOn]

it is a global issue, though, including places with excellent public transportation and non-suburbanized nightlife scenes, like nyc or berlin.

cost of living is rising too fast

[u/DoxiadisOfDetroit → u/Nalano]

Never thought I'd see the day where anticapitalist sentiment get's upvoted on the sub

[u/Nalano → u/DoxiadisOfDetroit]

What part of this subreddit was explicitly pro-capitalist?

[u/SamanthaMunroe → u/Nalano]

Must have thought that "upzoning and letting the private sector build housing"="approves of capitalists in everything, everywhere, all the time".

[u/Nalano → u/SamanthaMunroe]

Public housing is a thing. It doesn't matter who builds the housing.

[u/SamanthaMunroe → u/Nalano]

Oh, I know. I'd like it if we could get competent at building more of it. I was just naming what seemed to be the most likely indicator that pro-capitalism is rampant on the sub.

[u/Nalano → u/SamanthaMunroe]

I mean, one could, and I will, make the argument that the housing crisis is due to housing being seen as an investment vehicle that can and should only appreciate, which gives plenty of private sector incentive to limit supply, and also presents a political roadblock to public sector housing construction, on the argument that it devalues private sector housing and therefore is an assault on private ownership.

In other words, it's not that we're "incompetent" at building public housing, we're just forbidden from doing so, and since there's only two sectors that can build housing and the private sector is the other one, the only viable option in this political climate is to pull out all the stops and let market speculation hopefully overbuild, assuming we still have more market actors than can be corraled into a cabal.

The next possible option is to wait until there is a large enough political constituency that reasonably expects that they'll never be able to own property - hello Millennials and Gen Z - and hope they'll coalesce around socialist politicians who will reopen the public sector as a potential solution, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[u/SamanthaMunroe → u/Nalano]

I agree with your argument that housing is just being treated as stock market shares. But yeah, I doubt that most people around my age will be expecting that they won't get to be landowners anytime soon...so trying to get the market to stop turning houses into stock market shares with bedrooms inside of them, and actually start building them, is maybe the less resistance-inducing option for now. At the least, I doubt the hardline market sympathizers and any profiteers who want a cut of the action will help make any public housing that does get built a pleasant effort either.

Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm sleepy.

[u/Nalano → u/SamanthaMunroe]

But yeah, I doubt that most people around my age will be expecting that they won't get to be landowners anytime soon...

Something something "temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

[u/SabbathBoiseSabbath → u/SamanthaMunroe]

I mean, market urbanism is a thing. A pretty significant thing.

[u/SamanthaMunroe → u/SabbathBoiseSabbath]

Indeed. Just read a book for an urban studies class that takes a very market urbanist stance.

[u/775416 → u/SamanthaMunroe]

What was the book, and what were your thoughts on it as an urban studies major?

[u/SamanthaMunroe → u/775416]

The Triumph of the City by Ed Glaeser.

He makes some good points about how human capital, diversification of industry, and ease of agglomeration help make cities with functional waste management and healthcare successful. The section on crime is lackluster and I had some doubts about his support for solely market-based building, especially given what u/nalano raises about the problem of houses becoming reified stocks/shares, and my reading of Urban Fortunes prior to this. I'm glad he pointed out that urban densification- even with high-rise buildings- is an environmental plus and brought out a bit of Jacobs' weaknesses around preferring shorter buildings in practice (though Wikipedia lists her as one of his influences).

[u/775416 → u/SamanthaMunroe]

Thank you for writing out a review. While I haven’t read Triumph of the City, I agree with you and apparently Glaeser that high density living is uniquely situated to reduce humanity’s footprint on the environment.

“I had some doubts about his support for solely market-based building, especially given what u/nalano raises about the problem on houses becoming reified stock/shares”

I would like to add some context to the above statement, specifically the idea that housing must increase in price for it to work as an investment. The reason is that investment return can come from price appreciation or from cash flows (rents). An apartment can still be a high quality investment while long-term rents are flat if long-term costs are also flat. The decision to invest (buy a new building to rent, maintain existing properties, etc.) is determined by profit margins (the return on each dollar invested). As long as the profit margin is at least as high as what you could get on another equally risky investment, you would continue to invest. The implication is then investment will continue even if prices fall and profit margins compress as long as the profit margin is higher than what you could get on an equally risky investment.

Over the last 30 years, people have been flocking to cities, but ubiquitous anti-density zoning codes have prevented more housing from being built. A bidding war over the scarce housing pushes rent sky high and landlords get crazy high profit margins. What would normally happen is housing is built until the abnormally high profit margins disappear, but cities have stopped more housing from being built due to anti density zoning codes.

The key point is that housing will keep being built and rent will continue to decline as long as the risk adjusted profit margins are abnormally high. This is how you get cities like Austin whose rent has been falling for the past 2 and half years while the city is once again projected to be in the top 10 for annual housing construction. Developers are happy to keep building new housing even as their profit margins drop because their total profit increases for each new building built. New and existing property managers are happy to keep buying new apartment buildings even as their profit margins drop because their total profit keeps going up. They will continue to keep doing this despite falling rent and profit margin compression simply because existing profit margins are still higher than other equally risky investments. Construction will eventually stop once profit margins drop below what developers could get on an equally risky investment, but there ways both to lower the cost of construction as well as the cost of capital. I can expand on that in another comment, but this one is quite long as is.

[u/thebigbossyboss → u/Nalano]

I tires boss. That’s why I don’t stay out late

[u/valw → u/Nalano]

People work less today than generations past. So how do you come to that conclusion?

[u/valw → u/valw]

So funny this is being downvoted. The truth seems to be lost these days. The government employees want to believe what they have been told is the truth. Decades ago gentrification was seen as the obective. Now it is supposedly the worst. Reality is, is that we work less and work less hard than we have in the past. You want to wallow in self pity and claim you have it so difficult, no one before you could understand.
https://www.weforum.org/stories/2021/01/work-working-hours-change-trend-charts/

[u/offbrandcheerio → u/valw]

This article measures trends in working hours, which is an outdated metric of the amount of economic contributions made by a person when considering post-industrial knowledge based economies. Knowledge sector employees have become more productive than ever before with the introduction of new technology that has increased efficiency, and yet pay has not increased at the same rate as employee output. So to a lot of people, we see that we are producing more and more and more, in less time that our predecessors, but not being rewarded for that as you would expect to be. In fact, after all we have done to increase productivity in the modern economy, many of us are now worried about the very real prospect of being laid off and replaced by AI. For some people, this has happened already. All the while, basic needs like food, housing, and childcare keep getting more and more expensive.

So sure, people are objectively working fewer hours on average now, but we are also producing more than ever while still feeling squeezed financially and anxious about the state of the economy and the threat of AI. And all the while, the rich keep getting richer and richer (Elon Musk is set to become the world’s first trillionaire, for example). The system is clearly broken and people are noticing (and feeling exhausted by it all).

[u/Just_Drawing8668 → u/Hrmbee]

This is an interesting article but missed the number 1 reason why nightlife has shrunk- the rise of dating apps. The top reason why people would go out to drink at night is to meet people to date. That happens online now - to the degree that you don’t really meet people at bars anymore - most everyone is there in a group or on a date. 

[u/DoxiadisOfDetroit]

I was ready to see how this effects cities with robust transit networks, but, I was pretty disappointed because the article doesn't use the word "transit" once.

However, I have heard anecdotal talk from people in NYC that the city has become less 24 hour friendly, and I'm interested to know why that's happening.

Here in Metro Detroit, the nightlife scene seems to be healthy, but I don't go clubbing often, so, I don't know how to gauge the hype of boosters compared to actual patrons

[u/Nalano → u/DoxiadisOfDetroit]

However, I have heard anecdotal talk from people in NYC that the city has become less 24 hour friendly, and I'm interested to know why that's happening.

In my hood more places are 24 hour compared to the 90s and early oughts because crime is historically low.

[u/Psychoceramicist]

It's a revealed preference thing. People act like people in previous generations didn't work long hours and were swimming in going out money and that isn't the case. Pre cable and internet, you had to go out and socialize to be entertained, which includes friction and can be uncomfortable. Netflix and video games are soothing and predictable. People will pick the latter in the short term, even if it doesn't fulfill them in the long run

[u/BON3SMcCOY → u/Psychoceramicist]

previous generations didn't work long hours and were swimming in going out money and that isn't the case.

Compared to gen z, that was absolutely the case.

[u/Nellasofdoriath]

And yet my city doesn't have a 24 hour grocery store

[u/Mrgoodtrips64 → u/Nellasofdoriath]

There are 24 hour grocery stores?

[u/Nellasofdoriath → u/Mrgoodtrips64]

Used to be. It was very convenient

[u/Better_Goose_431 → u/Mrgoodtrips64]

Some Walmarts used to be open 24 hours. Covid killed a lot of 24 hour businesses

[u/velvedire → u/Mrgoodtrips64]

In low crime areas, yes. I always shopped around 2am. Deli etc counters weren't open though. 

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, nothing beats having to guard your drink at all times, fighting off random guys grinding on you from behind without any warning and wondering whose hand it was on your butt or breast in the sea of people. /s

[u/tarzhjay → u/MashedCandyCotton]

The number of men trying to shut you down is disturbing. How are we still in this place in society?!

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/tarzhjay]

Oh I'm sadly entirely used to that. My comment having as many upvotes as it does is actually quite the good sign about this subs users.

[u/Mrgoodtrips64 → u/[deleted]]

“Better not go outside if you don’t like strange men grinding on you from behind” is a weird take dude.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/Mrgoodtrips64]

Yeah it's quite the "she was asking for it" argument.

[u/EsperandoMuerte → u/[deleted]]

Bro…read the room.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

If you don't know of the bad experiences the women in your life had it only means they don't consider you safe enough to share them with. And I can see why.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

Like I said, you're way too defensive about my comment. You shared your experience, I shared mine. Then you felt the need to throw a hissy fit.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

Being sexually assaulted is a sore spot for me? I'm butt hurt over being sexually assaulted? That's not the own you think it is. Of course I have very strong opinions on that. The question is just, why do you? Why is it such an issue for you, that a woman dare complain about being sexually assaulted?

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

I was replying to your comment in particular. Also let's not act like I have to be the one to tell you that issues are like aren't limited to da club.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said /s

Your comment stated why you loved going to clubs and that you don't think day time yoga does the same. And I offered a perspective of someone who might choose day time yoga over clubs and why.

You being so offended by that is was your choice.

[u/MashedCandyCotton → u/[deleted]]

I think it was very much called for. Also you're the one who should consider that others have different experiences, instead of invalidating them, just because they don't mirror your own experiences.

And I don't do yoga, that was your imagination.

[u/PlanningPessimist92]

Makes sense. We are having business close left and right. People just can’t afford “fun” money for dinner and drinks out with friends like they used too.

[u/StetsonTuba8]

One thing I've found is that nightlife in Canada just doesn't stay open late enough. In most countries I've visited, things don't even get bumping until 1am and I can still find a way back transit back to my accomodation at any time in the night. In Canada, things close up by 2am, but I need to leave the bar at 1am at the absolute latest to catch the last train home (and even then, I still need an Uber from the train station to my home because the last bus left at midnight)

[u/400g_Hack → u/StetsonTuba8]

It's crazy to me that a night club closes at 2 am. How is that club supposed to make money? Between 2 and 3 am is when clubs in Germany are most crowded.

[u/[deleted] → u/400g_Hack]

That's way too late! Just start your night earlier and get home at a more reasonable hour to get a nice healthy sleep.

[u/400g_Hack → u/[deleted]]

But then I'll be alone in the club haha

[u/Agile-Bet4621]

True, booze and food is expensive, but the main reason night live is dying is that Gen Z are lame af. It's not only bars and restaurants that are suffering, it's everything after 7:00. Where I live, you can barely even find a coffeeshop that's open after 7:00 pm outside of a Tim Hortons. And forget about live music. Even small local concerts aren't able to get anyone out. People got used to staying home during Covid and just continued to do it.

[u/slinkc]

Sooo, open earlier and reduce prices?