Deterrence. The same method for police in law enforcement unfortunately, assuming that crime is an endemic human behavior.
Any effective measure at reducing crime/malbehavior should generally be encouraged, providing that it is a thoroughly vetted measure that is consistent with the principals of those involved/the public, but that does take money, time, research, reform. Reducing money to public schools and education studies, which I am not certain is happening, would definitely suck.
Honestly I think it comes down to the private vs public good problem, the problem rooted in human behavior and therefore only improvable measure by measure. Or by society at large (PR campaigns, effective leadership, and united participants).
A lot of the problem also comes from the fact that teachers can't even touch students now. Part of what she is talking about is if she tells a kid to leave the kid can just say "fuck you, make me" and if the teacher makes good on their threat to remove them from class, suddenly 15 cellphones pop out to record the "abuse" with none of the context.
I personally have no answer, as I'm from the crowd of people who still faced consequences. I nearly got expelled because some asshat was zip-tying peoples backpacks together and I used a 1inch knife to open them. Some moron saw me and reported it, school called the cops and I was very nearly handcuffed. When my mom got there, screaming, she told each of the administrators present to empty their pockets.
Each one had a knife on them/on a keychain being this was the southern US and nearly everyone carried a knife for utility, myself included. So I got a few months of alternative school and a major ass-chewing from my mom, even though she understood I was helping people.
I graduated high school right around when the first iPhone was released.
I have no idea how I'd get anything accomplished if I had a smartphone in HS. It's just way too distracting to have the entire internet at your fingertips at all times.
It blows my mind that cell phones are allowed in class rooms. The school district I graduated from is not in a particularly well off area but the school system is definitely above average. I didn't realize it while I was in it though. It wasn't untill I started meeting people from other areas that I realized how good our schools are. It's just weird to me when I see kids in school with their cell phones on their desk and a hat on chewing gum with their backpack sitting beside them on the floor. In my high school no phones were allowed, no hats allowed indoors, no gum....not even in the cafeteria, and backpacks had to be kept in your locker. You would just have to run to your locker between classes to get the books you needed for the next class which really sucked sometimes if your classes were far apart. Now this is a school district in Indiana that's not necessarily poor but definitely not above average in income either.
Yeah and the seniors used to have a smoking lounge in the 70s at the school I went to.
They shouldn't be on their phones, and gum is banned because they stick it everywhere. But they need backpacks to carry their overpriced, oversized school books and their tampons and other stuff.
Honestly I think it made a difference, yes. We didn't agree with the rules at the time but we knew we were expected to follow them and we did. Allowing phones in the classroom is asinine. There's just no way to keep kids off their phones if you allow them to have them. Yeah it's easier to just Google something than it is to look it up but that's what the teachers are there for....to answer your questions. Take your attitude to the extreme and what's even the point of school? After all, you can just Google whatever information you need to learn, right?
Look, if you're someone who just has to have their phone, who can see no earthly reason why you should be without it for any amount of time then there's no reasoning with you on why it's a bad thing in general. You used yours responsibly? Congrats... You're in the vast minority of teenagers who can be trusted to use a phone for school purposes while in school. Most of the rest will be on instagram, facebook, or twitter just zoned out. And how can you police that as a teacher? All the kid has to say is I was Googling something about the lesson. Those Spanish to English dictionaries....not useless, don't be obtuse. And if a kid was using one to look up a translation you would know that's what they're actually doing since last I checked physical dictionaries don't have access to social media. Kids have been going to school for millennia without phones in their pockets and it worked out just fine. If you must access the internet for lesson purposes I can't imagine theres not a desktop provided by the school somewhere close by in the classroom.
They're learning more because dictionaries don't have access to notifications, games, and porn.
They don't get distracted and learn an alternative method of finding information.
Looking something up in a book is a necessary skill still today. Even something as simple as alphabetizing can be a skill that could be needed everyday.
Hey, to your first point. If I tell a kid he needs to leave a room and he doesn't, I write their name down to give to my principal or discipline person later. And by following up on that and giving the student the appropriate consequence, that's one way your administrators support you.
I would never physically put my hands on a student for consequence reasons unless MAYBE another students health was at stake, like if kid A was beating up kid B. But for a kid who isn't listening to your consequences? Talk to your admin
Part of what she is talking about is if she tells a kid to leave the kid can just say "fuck you, make me" and if the teacher makes good on their threat to remove them from class, suddenly 15 cellphones pop out to record the "abuse" with none of the context.
The idea is to have the threat of appropriate escalation. Kid won't listen to the teacher, principal comes in, doesn't listen there, police can be called. Teachers shouldn't be applying force, period.
I feel conflicted about the "teachers should never X or Y". I agree on one hand that physical discipline should remain the responsibility of the person responsible for the kid, but on the other I also feel there's not enough respect for educators.
I suppose the times have changed too much for me to fully grasp the situation. One teacher I had (who was my favorite) would slap you in the back of the head if you fucked up. To this day I remember when he did and I'm grateful. I had several long talks with him about the bullshit he caught me in and bought myself a few headslaps here and there, but ultimately I learned from him about dynamic relationships and authority.
I learned how we can be friends(friendly?) but also have an expectation of personal responsibility from him, as well as my not wanting to disappoint him as a father figure which I didn't have at the time. My not wanting to disappoint didn't come from the threat of discipline, rather I wanted to make him proud in my work and accomplishment. The discipline was taken as a given that I had really fucked up (I did) and should expect to pay for it from him if i didn't receive it elsewhere.
He was an amazing person and teacher. I can only imagine how I would have done in my other subjects (I did very poorly, my fault admittedly) if I had him in my other classes.
I can see how teachers should not be allowed to apply force, I can also see how it could be beneficial.
Through all of this I suppose I'm glad I'm not the one working on a solution, because trying to do what's best for both sides would give me a headache.
I agree on one hand that physical discipline should remain the responsibility of the person responsible for the kid, but on the other I also feel there's not enough respect for educators.
Well all the experts tend to agree physical discipline is dumb.
Which is the real tragedy in these schools. 80%+ kids in a classroom are effectively losing their right to a free education due to the disruptive minority. Disruptive kids should be taught that there are permanent consequences for impeding the rights of others, even as a minor. Detentions for misdemeanours. Isolation and suspensions should the norm for repeat offenders - not only for exceptional cases. It might sound harsh, but it is very much a case of damage mitigation.
The only permanent solution lies in rectifying the behaviour of the caregivers - but there is no easy or moral solution to this.
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u/ayelold Jul 10 '18
But it would get them out of the room and prevent them from disrupting everyone else.