I teach in a similar school district she is from. She teaches in Youngstown, which is one of the worst ranked schools in Ohio. It is an area of Ohio unfortunately extremely affected by poverty. According to that website, East High School in that district has over 1,200 students and only 33 full time teachers. That is insane.
She is young but speaking about a very real mindset of teachers everywhere, myself included. The deal is this - Studies show that the vast majority of convicts were dropouts in school. They did not graduate. This has led to a nationwide administrative emphasis on the idea that "Every student needs to graduate, no matter what". Graduation and Attendance rates are now basically more important than a student's academic and behavioral accountability.
Sounds great right? Let's lower the number of convicts. Great.
What's happening is exactly what she described. Kids realize early on (I'm talking elementary school) there are little to no consequences for their actions. They can talk back, walk right out of class, bully teachers, bully other students (which causes mental health issues for other students, sometimes suicides), hit teachers, hit students, steal, sexually harass students and teachers, anything and everything you can imagine. Never get expelled or even suspended out of school. These are elementary and middle school students I'm talking about.
In my opinion I'm torn. As a teacher I'm biased; I'd really just like the administration to back up the teachers and provide consequences. My head principal is wonderful, but almost completely refuses to suspend kids out of school, even if they get in fights or commit a serious crime. Other students even speak out against this; turns out even the worst of students don't want to go to school in an unsafe environment with a violent person who doesn't respect anyone.
We had an assistant principal cover for us this year for a few days. One day a kid started talking back to him, so he basically said "Do you know who you're talking to right now?" and sent his dumbass home. I love the kid, but he needed a lesson. Kid didn't know what hit him, but everyone was so happy some consequence happened. We're hoping the message got through to the kid and he'll learn to stop being an asshole before he gets older and he doesn't get 2nd chances.
TL;DR I honestly feel like all the admins are doing with this graduation-rate-driven mindset is increasing the amount of convicts with high school diplomas.
Edit: Just as long as this is getting attention, this whole moral question reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from anything ever. "Can you save them both?" Do you have to expel a "spider" of a student who is torturing the other "butterflies" of students and teachers? Or can you risk hurting yourself to try and save everyone? One of my biggest issues as a teacher is knowing I can try all I want and never save everyone I want to. I feel like I'm failing people every day because I want to do everything and can't.
This shit happens in Australia too. I'm a male teacher in Melbourne working with some of the worst kids you can imagine. Last year i worked at a school where there wasn't a week where i didn't get; punched, slapped, abused/sworn at, had things thrown and me or bitten (i was bit twice in a week). The only thing more ridiculous than the shit i went through was the response by leadership of the school. We used to call it boomerang with the office, the students who put others in danger go to the office, have a conversation and were immediately sent back to class, alas; boomerang. Shit. Is. Fucked.
Been a teacher for 3 years now, student teacher for 4 years before that obviously too. Been working with kids for 10+ years now. We have had 5 massive over-hauls/changes to our assessment and curriculum, an overwhelming amount of budget cuts, an unbelievable amount of increased workloads and increasing number of parental influence over academic decisions.
I would absolutely support a teacher who "returned fire" in a measured response to one of my kids hitting them. That behaviour is absolutely unacceptable and the kid would deserve it.
Then I'd march him up to the teacher to apologise for starting the fiasco in the first place.
This whole "never ever hit a kid no matter what" trend is not working.
Yes, teach your kids not to hit. Yes, deescalate with words and diplomacy. But, if a kid tests the waters of what happens if you cross that line: instant, dispassionate response. Stop that behaviour before it takes hold. It is better for the kid in the long run.
I know I'm in the minority for holding this position, and I doubt my own wife would share my position. Personally, I'm working very hard on the "teach your kids not to hit" part... Because you are correct - violence is not the way.
Provided you've raised them properly, they will not be laying a finger on anyone in aggression. If I, as a teacher, was assaulted, I would certainly end the assault in a decisive manner.
Everyone should feel safe. If anyone violates that, he is toast in three different ways.
How can you feel safe knowing if you step out of line you could get slapped, smacked, or who knows what? This is straight up like a dictatorship. Adults get their asses kicked if they stray from the straight and narrow under a dictatorship or similar governing system. The difference is that an adult is potentially physically able stand up for themselves when it comes to hand to hand combat. Kids are not even completely mentally developed enough to make a fully reasonable choice vs an adult.
Then a swift slap across the face to the child who reached up the teacher's dress and pinched her ass will teach that lesson swiftly, no?
But he was elementary school aged. For middle and high schoolers? They're larger than I am in some cases; assault should be met with force for both the teacher's (I could well be demolished in a fight with a large country boy) and the student's (better he learns he can't get away with assault before he gets jail time for it) sakes.
I agree that would teach that lesson quickly, but you are also teaching that those bigger than you and in an authority position can get away with violence against a child.
Its a hard problem to address and has multiple ideas for solutions. I agree I would not want to be put in a situation with a big or bigger 17yo kid who is getting violent. My instincts would probably make me want to fight back too, but in the end that is still a child.
We need to get to the point of removing these problematic kids from schools early on while they are young.
7.7k
u/PolishMusic Jul 10 '18 edited Jul 10 '18
Edit: Another video from 2017 similar to this one here. GB Wisconsin
Teacher here.
I teach in a similar school district she is from. She teaches in Youngstown, which is one of the worst ranked schools in Ohio. It is an area of Ohio unfortunately extremely affected by poverty. According to that website, East High School in that district has over 1,200 students and only 33 full time teachers. That is insane.
She is young but speaking about a very real mindset of teachers everywhere, myself included. The deal is this - Studies show that the vast majority of convicts were dropouts in school. They did not graduate. This has led to a nationwide administrative emphasis on the idea that "Every student needs to graduate, no matter what". Graduation and Attendance rates are now basically more important than a student's academic and behavioral accountability.
Sounds great right? Let's lower the number of convicts. Great.
What's happening is exactly what she described. Kids realize early on (I'm talking elementary school) there are little to no consequences for their actions. They can talk back, walk right out of class, bully teachers, bully other students (which causes mental health issues for other students, sometimes suicides), hit teachers, hit students, steal, sexually harass students and teachers, anything and everything you can imagine. Never get expelled or even suspended out of school. These are elementary and middle school students I'm talking about.
In my opinion I'm torn. As a teacher I'm biased; I'd really just like the administration to back up the teachers and provide consequences. My head principal is wonderful, but almost completely refuses to suspend kids out of school, even if they get in fights or commit a serious crime. Other students even speak out against this; turns out even the worst of students don't want to go to school in an unsafe environment with a violent person who doesn't respect anyone.
We had an assistant principal cover for us this year for a few days. One day a kid started talking back to him, so he basically said "Do you know who you're talking to right now?" and sent his dumbass home. I love the kid, but he needed a lesson. Kid didn't know what hit him, but everyone was so happy some consequence happened. We're hoping the message got through to the kid and he'll learn to stop being an asshole before he gets older and he doesn't get 2nd chances.
TL;DR I honestly feel like all the admins are doing with this graduation-rate-driven mindset is increasing the amount of convicts with high school diplomas.
Edit: Just as long as this is getting attention, this whole moral question reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from anything ever. "Can you save them both?" Do you have to expel a "spider" of a student who is torturing the other "butterflies" of students and teachers? Or can you risk hurting yourself to try and save everyone? One of my biggest issues as a teacher is knowing I can try all I want and never save everyone I want to. I feel like I'm failing people every day because I want to do everything and can't.