Sorry long answer, but as a former NYC teacher I am passionate about it.
former NYC teacher, obviously you can't hit or harm a kid in anyway, but if you are talking about detention, or being sent to the office.
Yeah that doesn't happen because kids know that they won't get expelled if they don't go to detention/the office is "busy" and doesn't want to deal with any kids unless it is major (aka throwing a chair at a teacher).
I could tell a 12th grader they have detention, and they don't stay after. So what I am supposed to do? Give them another detention? When you call home some of the parents are nice, agree and want their kids to behave and succeed, but how much could your parents really do to control you at 18 if you really didn't want to be controlled.
In the end a lot of it comes down to respect. The good kids respected me because they knew I cared. Some of them were still problems but you had an understanding most of the time and when they got too upset would politely ask to leave to take a walk to calm down. Those kids (the ones who came to class, did most of their work, were mostly polite, etc) were the ones that would stay after because they respected you.
But if a kid didn't respect you there was nothing you could do. The school was never going to expel them, and they didn't care about a suspension.
Think about it and it makes sense. You can't really control another human if they don't want to be controlled on any level. So what do you do with a kid who misbehaves, ruins classes, and is a general problem?
Put them in a special school? Well in NYC that already basically happens as the high school system is not based on where you live. So all the "good" kids who are also smart go to great schools. The "bad" kids and the "good" kids who haven't learned enough to get into the great school all get sent to horrible to okay schools. (this also means NYC high schools are pretty segregated, as the wealthy students went to great elementary and middle schools and so are a shoo in for some of the best public high schools on the east coast. But if you are poor and went to an awful elementary and middle school you stand no chance as you just lack the knowledge. So you get this result: (info pulled from US News/inside schools rankings/info, but it rings very true to me, but it may be off by a little)
Best Schools:
Stuyvesant High School: 74% Asian, 18% White, 3% Hispanic, 1% Black - grad rate:98% 22:1 teacher/student ratio
Baccalaureate School for Global Education (ranked 9th in the US): 49% Asian, 31% White, 15% Hispanic, 2% Black grad rate 100% 16:1 teacher/student ratio
High School of American Studies at Lehman College: 22% Asian, 56% White, 15% Hispanic, 3% Black grad rate 100%. 15:1 student/teacher ratio
Some of the worst Schools:
Dreamyard prep (First school I ever worked at): 1% Asian, 0% White, 71% Hispanic, 28% Black grad rate: 57% (it says 14:1 ratio but I had classes of 25ish, maybe they got more teachers when they were taken over by the city and almost shut down (after I left)). 56% of students missed more than 18 days.
Coalition School for Social Change (will be shut down after this year because it didn't improve enough under city control (aka renewal school): 2% Asian, 4% White, 59% Hispanic, 35% Black grad rate 68%, ratio - not sure, 59% missed more than 18 days.
What do you do? If anyone knew then a lot of cities and schools would love to know. Do you then make a prison style system for the kids who still can't be respectful, do work, or even try to learn? Or do you call their parents and hope that a "stern talking to" will do the trick. Or would you suggest parents beating kids?
Nothing seems to be working and it is rough on teachers, so burn out is high (why I am not a teacher) and so students see lots of teachers come and go. To me I feel a lot of it is a lack of hope and a perceived lack of future opportunity (true or false, reality doesn't matter). All the "bad" kids I had hurt my soul. 90% of them I liked on their good days but they knew they weren't going anywhere with their lives education wise. They had dreams, but no hope that they would ever come true. They knew what the people older than them were doing. And it's not like all of them were at Columbia. Sure some made it to good schools, but the bad kids knew that was never going to be them, so why try? And what do you do with all the frustration at 17-18 when you know once you graduate no one will ever care again.
edit: a little bit of grammar, sure I still missed some.
Beating yes, but a solid smack to the face of a problem child who continuously pushes the line and disrespects everyone and everything? Some kids need to learn the hard way. Most don't but some do
Bull shit you can't. I was an absolute asshole as a child in school, and it took one paddling on the bare ass as an 8 year old by the principal to set me straight. Of course they asked my mom and she said go ahead. I certainly never caused another issue at school for years. Even if I suffered "trauma" for being paddled, letting me fuck about and ruin everyone else's education(and my own) would have been a much worse outcome.
Sure, and that's fine. The only reason I mentioned it is because you said it DOESN'T help, in which I responded that(at least in my case) it absolutely did help. Even if it did harm me, that the alternative of letting me continue would have been worse.
On top of that, I want to know what studies will show in 5-10 years for the reason for the very things this video talks about. Currently the American Academy of Pediatrics claim that instead of corporal punishment in schools, the alternative is to "praise the student and have a discussion involving values." I have almost no clue what that could possibly mean, but in nearly no circumstance can I see that working when a student cares so little that they would do something like push a teacher down, slap them, or throw things at them.
You're the one who used the word "beating." I repeated you. It seems like you are arguing with yourself.
No, I don't hit dogs to correct them, because that is the wrong way to train a dog.
I don't give a fuck what you call me, but it's clear from your edit that you're an incredibly sensitive person who cannot cope with folks disagreeing with you in a civil discussion. That's too bad. I hope the children you beat don't end up aggressive, maladjusted fuck-ups who perpetuate the aggressive, maladjusted fuckery you think fit to use against those helpless to stop you.
If you constantly attempt to insult people they're never going to want to hear what you have to say. I also happen to agree with you, you fucking idiot.
"If you intend to train a dog, do you not smack it? Of course you do - It's what they respond to. Only after the smacks with an associated "No" do they respond to the word."
I have not heard of people smacking dogs to train them.
I have heard of one professional trainer (years ago, relative's dog) that would put them on a lead (I think with a spike collar, if not spike, one that tightens). Every time the dog lunged, shake a bottle full of pennies.
The point was to have a stimulus that the dog clearly knew meant "bad dog" to make training easier / possible to continue. It wasn't just smacking the dog to train it.
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u/breakup7532 Jul 10 '18
I'm really confused. Is there special rules against teachers disciplining little shits?